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Tactical Series - Juego de Posicion


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Let's add on to the first post with a discussion of Organized Structure, which we have placed as our first key principle for achieving Juego de Posicion (JdP) or positional play. A good team structure is the basis to creating a functional and successful system of play. Not only should it have a clear and defined geometrical shape, but it should follow a series of premises. We will look at 3 ideas, width, depth, and space.

Width - According to Lillo, due to the offsides rule, the opposing team can restrict vertical space, shortening the field by pushing up. But the width of the field is determined and cannot be changed. Thus, it's important for the attacking team to make full use of the width of the field in order to create more space in the middle of the field. By staying out wide, for example, a winger hugging the touch line will require a defender, typically a full back, to stay out wide to mark him. This opens up the half space/or channel, for other players.

One of the things I will explore throughout this series is a mix of static players and roaming players. Static players will be used to establish our team structure. So, in order to maintain width, I'm going to need at least 2 static players who will be instructed to play wide. Because I'm wanting variability in the different levels of my shape, I will opt to use a Winger on one side of the pitch, and a wing on the other side. Both players can be told to stay wide and to hold position. These two players will be key to keeping the overall area of cooperation wide. 

Depth -  As mentioned above, the offside rule means that the defense can dictate one end of the pitch, thus impeding our team's depth. Because of this, it is important that we consider the positioning of our own defense, lest we compress our own team shape by having our defenders too high up the pitch. (this is a huge break away from my traditional views on this game, as usually I set my defensive line high and don't give any holding instructions to CB's). So, in our tactic, we will be looking to have at least one static CB, and the opposing fullback (not the width creating WB mentioned above) told to hold position and dribble less. For variability and tactical flexibility, we will allow one of the two CB's to move to more advanced ball playing positions (which we will cover later).

Additionally, our choice of forward role and duty will have some effect on the defensive line of the opponent. Because I want to stretch the depth of our area of cooperation, I will refrain from using roaming roles up top. My first choice is the advanced forward without any PI's, and sometimes in game, I will look to use the poacher role if I need to push the opposing defensive line further.

Space - If we accomplish the first two objectives while in game, then the result is the amount of space the team has to work within. Here is where we will look to establish positional play, some roaming movement, all trying to find and assert superiority. In order to accomplish this, we will use multiple roaming players and 2 playmakers. I want players that can be given the PI roam from position in order to have players drifting around trying to exploit the space created by our team shape. Additionally, I do want two playmakers central to the team, working hard within the team shape to attract the ball and drive our tempo and possession. 

Now that we have discussed our Organized Structure and team shape, let's look at this within the tactics creator (i'm going to only show PRD, position/role/duty for now). 

Important highlights - Width, the winger on the left has hardcoded to play wide, but I've added hold position. The WB on the right is on automatic, as this allows me to give him the PI hold position. (He shows as automatic/support, but if I choose support, I cannot give him the hold position PI), he also has stay wider PI. 

Depth, the CD-co will naturally stay deeper, but he also has PI's hold position, close down less. The previously mentioned AF-A is up top to work to stretch the back line. Additionally, the CM-su has the hold position PI so that he will help create better passing triangles by being an outlet for recycling possession. 

Space. the two playmakers, one is hard coded to roam, the other has this added through PI. Also, the IW-s is told to sit narrow and roam from position. 

image.png.b8e5d62bd0615362bf8cf0ee73482ad2.png

 

Coming up next, we will begin diving into some further JdP principles which will lead us to team instructions. 

 

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I guess I neglected to discuss the 4231 tactical shape. Two things: first, since Lillo was the pioneer and inspiration for this series, I thought it fitting to explore the use of his creation the 4231. Second, this shape allows us to assert a certain pressing authority on the other team. It's a solid attacking shape as well as it give us plenty of options to build available attacking players in front of the possession central players deeper at the typical pivot. We will explore all of this more but just had to put a small footnote on the 4231. 

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One TI reveal below

One thing I'll quickly discuss as well, as it's determined solely by how many support duties we have selected, and that's the team fluidity. I have played with both the CM on a support and defend duty. I like them both for different reasons, but I'm currently using the support duty to get our team to the fluid description. I have support duty players all over the pitch so that we will have some fluidity to our team positioning. Here is a perfect illustration of that playing out.

In the below picture, 11 (our AMR) has dropped deep to help build play out from our half. he's received the ball in space created by the defender who has gone very wide to defend the initial ball carrier, our left wingback. Two additional interesting things here, the CM-su (#6) has dropped back and to the flank to take the wingback's position, offering defensive cover. Additionally, the AMC(# 7) has dropped very deep to also help provide number superiority and be a ball passing option. 

image.thumb.png.7795fa8a8272c63e05c32685b1926eda.png

 

So, you might be surprised to learn that our tactic is using the "Be more disciplined" team instruction. If you hover over the selection on the interface, the below description is actually perfect for what we are looking to do. That said, we of course want a lot of flair and creative plays, but that is accomplished in other ways. 

image.png.4ae07a7ab5815f74e5ac36afb9d4625d.png

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Very interesting read, looking forward for more. :thup:

3 hours ago, 04texag said:

In the below picture, 11 (our AMR) has dropped deep to help build play out from our half. he's received the ball in space created by the defender who has gone very wide to defend the initial ball carrier, our left wingback. Two additional interesting things here, the CM-su (#6) has dropped back and to the flank to take the wingback's position, offering defensive cover. Additionally, the AMC(# 7) has dropped very deep to also help provide number superiority and be a ball passing option.

A quick question, if you don't mind. Is the above happening because of your Fluid Team Shape or the Be More Disciplined TI (players leaving their positions to cover for each other/offer support)?

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28 minutes ago, Zemahh said:

Very interesting read, looking forward for more. :thup:

A quick question, if you don't mind. Is the above happening because of your Fluid Team Shape or the Be More Disciplined TI (players leaving their positions to cover for each other/offer support)?

I believe it's the combination of support duties that's most contributing to this. Soon enough I'll do another post and get towards the team mentality and other instructions. 

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7 hours ago, 04texag said:

Let's add on to the first post with a discussion of Organized Structure, which we have placed as our first key principle for achieving Juego de Posicion (JdP) or positional play. A good team structure is the basis to creating a functional and successful system of play. Not only should it have a clear and defined geometrical shape, but it should follow a series of premises. We will look at 3 ideas, width, depth, and space.

Width - According to Lillo, due to the offsides rule, the opposing team can restrict vertical space, shortening the field by pushing up. But the width of the field is determined and cannot be changed. Thus, it's important for the attacking team to make full use of the width of the field in order to create more space in the middle of the field. By staying out wide, for example, a winger hugging the touch line will require a defender, typically a full back, to stay out wide to mark him. This opens up the half space/or channel, for other players.

One of the things I will explore throughout this series is a mix of static players and roaming players. Static players will be used to establish our team structure. So, in order to maintain width, I'm going to need at least 2 static players who will be instructed to play wide. Because I'm wanting variability in the different levels of my shape, I will opt to use a Winger on one side of the pitch, and a wing on the other side. Both players can be told to stay wide and to hold position. These two players will be key to keeping the overall area of cooperation wide. 

Depth -  As mentioned above, the offside rule means that the defense can dictate one end of the pitch, thus impeding our team's depth. Because of this, it is important that we consider the positioning of our own defense, lest we compress our own team shape by having our defenders too high up the pitch. (this is a huge break away from my traditional views on this game, as usually I set my defensive line high and don't give any holding instructions to CB's). So, in our tactic, we will be looking to have at least one static CB, and the opposing fullback (not the width creating WB mentioned above) told to hold position and dribble less. For variability and tactical flexibility, we will allow one of the two CB's to move to more advanced ball playing positions (which we will cover later).

Additionally, our choice of forward role and duty will have some effect on the defensive line of the opponent. Because I want to stretch the depth of our area of cooperation, I will refrain from using roaming roles up top. My first choice is the advanced forward without any PI's, and sometimes in game, I will look to use the poacher role if I need to push the opposing defensive line further.

Space - If we accomplish the first two objectives while in game, then the result is the amount of space the team has to work within. Here is where we will look to establish positional play, some roaming movement, all trying to find and assert superiority. In order to accomplish this, we will use multiple roaming players and 2 playmakers. I want players that can be given the PI roam from position in order to have players drifting around trying to exploit the space created by our team shape. Additionally, I do want two playmakers central to the team, working hard within the team shape to attract the ball and drive our tempo and possession. 

Now that we have discussed our Organized Structure and team shape, let's look at this within the tactics creator (i'm going to only show PRD, position/role/duty for now). 

Important highlights - Width, the winger on the left has hardcoded to play wide, but I've added hold position. The WB on the right is on automatic, as this allows me to give him the PI hold position. (He shows as automatic/support, but if I choose support, I cannot give him the hold position PI), he also has stay wider PI. 

Depth, the CD-co will naturally stay deeper, but he also has PI's hold position, close down less. The previously mentioned AF-A is up top to work to stretch the back line. Additionally, the CM-su has the hold position PI so that he will help create better passing triangles by being an outlet for recycling possession. 

Space. the two playmakers, one is hard coded to roam, the other has this added through PI. Also, the IW-s is told to sit narrow and roam from position. 

image.png.b8e5d62bd0615362bf8cf0ee73482ad2.png

 

Coming up next, we will begin diving into some further JdP principles which will lead us to team instructions. 

 

Very interesting write up. I really wonder how CM(S) acting as Defensive pivot under transitions. Curious if you want WB to hold position but keep width why not use WB(D) ?Is that to keep the Team as fluid as it can be ?

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Concept 2 - Relationship with the ball. In the first post I outlined three key principles of JdP, and this is the second. In this post, I'm going to explore relationship to the ball and also definitions of space. We will start with the definitions of space, which we touched up on in the first post. 

There are two primary definitions I'm concerned with in the FM20 ME, and those are the area of cooperation (AoC) and the area of mutual help (AoMH). It's easiest to think of these as two circles. The AoC is the much larger area of that the overall team structure helps to define. As we've discussed in the previous post, the team shape is establishing our operable field of play by forcing width and depth. I'm going to use some screenshots to help illustrate.

in the below picture, the orange lines represent our team using our discussed principles to define the AoC. Notice the blue ovals. Due to our wide positioning, we have created difficult marking assignments for the defense. #12 is stuck, needing to be wide due to our two flank players, but he recognizes the number 6 in the circle. Similarly, #7 is caught in between our midfielder and forward. Our right CB, who has the hold position, is pretty deep, which the opposing striker wants to take advantage of by being far up the pitch in case of a break. 

AoC is orange, AoMH is yellow, defense line of pressure red

image.png.34becb0fadc0db79e3ddfc572c4e2cce.png

now let's look at our AoMH  in the below picture. We have three midfielders whom are all in space, although our #6 is in prime position. Our#9 has a choice of dribbling to draw a defender or passing, but he will pass here. 

image.png.553aa675f6369d0bed5645241864a6d3.png

once our 6 receives the pass, the opposing #7 closes him down. Because of his movement, and our width creating issues for their #12, we have created a massive space for our right IW #15 to move into. Here we need to look at the players and which area they are in, and how they behave. Our three midfielders comprising the AoMH, which includes the ball carrier, are all remaining tight, as they currently have number superiority and are holding the opposing midfield together. Every other player in our team is in the AoC, but some of these players are behaving differently than others.

You'll notice, most of the players in the AoC are all remaining static. They have to be in order to maintain our organized structure.  Imagine, if we were using a False 9 up top, or gave our AF-A the roam from position TI, he would be dropping into the space that was created when the #7 pressed our ball carrier. But if he were to do so, the drawn red line, the defenses main line of pressure, would ALL move up with him. This would completely close off the space we have created. Alternatively, the IW-S has been giving the roam from position TI, as I need a player on that flank to take advantage of this space we have created, which is just what he's about to do.

image.png.ac840c3b19635b90fafb3f800a7821ad.png

So the #7 closed us down quickly, and in doing so the defense's #10 backed off of our #10, so a quick pass from our 6 to 10. Notice, our team is maintaining our AoC and AoMH, additionally notice that as these short quick passes occur, our AF is actually drifting closer to the box, dragging the defense's line of pressure back.

image.png.bfdfa8e153c6606c52513033ff1a7aa9.png

I'm not going to show every frame here, but our 10 receives the pass and two touch passes the direct pass to the exposed flank.

image.png.50eafd7929cb01f796fa156702e1ee7d.png

15 receives the pass and immediately dribbles to the byline. In JdP, you are not discouraged from dribbling, as if you are left with space, you use that space to advance the ball forward. 

image.png.591f70da6a0b29218478f14f0d934741.png

The defensive LB is quick to recover, and because we are not playing risky football, our 15 does not just hoof the ball into the box. Instead, our WB (even though he has hold position), charges forward to support. Why?  In this photo you will notice, there is no longer a defined AoMH. The wingback is rushing forward so that our ball carrier will have someone to pass to. 

image.png.db31f48815e5fb5a6c6432ef06075c67.png

Now, we have a possible superiority deep in the opponents half, both on the flank and in the box. If the opponent LB steps out to close down our WB, he's leaving the IW free.

image.png.c3b5f9d470cbbf5239ec2e70df665377.png

But he does not do so, until our WB, again with space in front of him, dribbles into the box to force the marking LB to close him down, which frees up our guy for the pass and shot.

image.png.88c066f400567f42b12c95b4c7052007.png

 

Ok, so a lot of pictures but it breaks down some very key elements. We have some players holding position to maintain our structure, the AoC, and we have other players roaming in order to take advantage of the created space. We also saw how quick passing amongst the AoMH can break down a defense by creating marking challenges and number superiority (this really creates the third man, or free man, which we won't really get into in detail).  We also saw how our players are sometimes quick passing and other times dribbling more. Lastly, we saw some patience around the box to allow for deeper players to surge forward to help with the attack.

So, can you guys begin to guess what our team mentality and some of our TI's are? In my next post, I'll reveal the full tactic and then we can talk about the choices and why I have made them. I hope you're enjoying the series so far, thanks for reading and any encouragement or feedback would be greatly appreciated. 

 

 

Edited by 04texag
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8 minutes ago, 04texag said:

Our three midfielders comprising the AoC, which includes the ball carrier, are all remaining tight, as they currently have number superiority and are holding the opposing midfield together. Every other player in our team is in the AoMH, but some of these players are behaving differently than others.

I believe you have AoC and AoMH the wrong way around here.

These posts are a wonderful description of positional play. It's the first time I've really seen the distinction made between static players to hold width and depth (AoC) and mobile players to create local superiority (AoMH), and how these two combine. I may actually understand JdP now.

In the past I've made tactics with no overloads and lots to width (and players in the half spaces), and I've made tactics with lots of overloads and no width, such as a flank with IWB and IF. After reading your post, I can understand how to think about tactics much better.

Thank you.

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13 hours ago, ferrarinseb said:

Very interesting write up. I really wonder how CM(S) acting as Defensive pivot under transitions. Curious if you want WB to hold position but keep width why not use WB(D) ?Is that to keep the Team as fluid as it can be ?

Good question, I'll look to answer this in the next post as I explore all of the rest of the tactic settings. 

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2 minutes ago, Beerwulf said:

I believe you have AoC and AoMH the wrong way around here.

These posts are a wonderful description of positional play. It's the first time I've really seen the distinction made between static players to hold width and depth (AoC) and mobile players to create local superiority (AoMH), and how these two combine. I may actually understand JdP now.

In the past I've made tactics with no overloads and lots to width (and players in the half spaces), and I've made tactics with lots of overloads and no width, such as a flank with IWB and IF. After reading your post, I can understand how to think about tactics much better.

Thank you.

Yep, I flipped them there, it's a lot to juggle putting these pics and descriptions, but good catch! I've edited this. Also, glad to hear the feedback! 

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Really excellent thread and fascinating concept in general. Very much enjoying your content and insights and totally looking forward to your next post with the team instructions.

Thank you for the effort you are putting into this. Hoping for plenty of detail on the defensive side of things as well, which is often overlooked by many when discussing Juego de Posicion.

Would be interested to know if you think the left back in your tactic would perhaps be better suited to an Inverted Wingback (Defend) role, to be better connected to the central players with the wide winger on the underloaded side on the left (when overloading the right in a rondo-style situation). This might be particularly useful if the switch to the underloaded side was unsuccessful - to stop the opponent counter attacking that space between the central players drifting to the right and the wide winger on the left. Curious to know your thought on this. 😊

Keep up the good work!

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Just now, Juego de Posicion said:

 

Would be interested to know if you think the left back in your tactic would perhaps be better suited to an Inverted Wingback (Defend) role, to be connect the central players with the wide winger on the underloaded side on the left when overloading the right in a rondo-style situation. This might be particularly useless if the switch to the underloaded side was unsuccessful to stop the opponent counter attacking that space between the central players drifting to the right and the wide winger on the left. Curious to know your thought on this. 😊

 

Wow, a comment from none other than someone with the profile name @Juego de Posicion

So yes, I really do want to try the IWB on the left, and was going to do it soon, but turned off by the silly team fluidity. If I go IWB-D I lose fluid, but if I go, IWB-S, it's hard coded to roam. There is no IWB automatic like on FB and WB. I will likely explore this setting at some point. 

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It's been a busy work day, so I haven't had a chance to do the next write up. That said, I had a simulation run to test this tactic with no other changes to see results on a team in a fresh Fm20 new save. I started one up with Benfica, loaded the tactic, and simulated forcing the tactic but no specific squad. Here are the results through 1/1/20.

image.png.e9aad804d2094aec2e7f638d1085484e.png

Looks like the team had a few unfortunate injuries at the end of October and lost three in a row, but other than that have performed quite well, as they should have. A lot of shut outs, and the losses are almost all lost 0-1.

image.png.b27bc717b4ebff36aa73bf62dd3e6194.png 

I'm running another sim right now for Man City through half a season while I finish some work, and then hopefully this evening I'll post the  full tactic with write up.

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Ok, so let's look at the full tactic.

Quick Review -  The tactic still needs some further tweaking, as I have yet to actively manage a full season with it, but I think that it's playing pretty well as I'm intending. I've been very pleasantly surprised by the defensive stability. Most goals seem like player mistakes or set pieces, we almost never get caught out on a break, which is usually a downside of possession oriented tactics. There has been a lot of really beautiful football that I've watched with this. The blend of strong team shape, with some fluidity of movement into open space and sharp quick 2 touch passing has been on point for a recreation of this style of play.

image.png.fff7fcec5bca509d0010fa0fd11bf37d.png

 

So what stands out? I'm wondering how many of you would have guessed two items which I'm considering as imperative to pull of this style, cautious team mentality and Be more disciplined. The interesting thing with getting JdP to work within the ME has been managing the dichotomy of perception of play and tactical settings. Most tactics I see, and the way I have predominantly played, as been to associate Positive team mentality and be more expressive with playing attacking/possession based football. But, we have to manage our shape, as it's the number one fundamental to getting JdP to work. I have only been able to recreate this by using those two combined settings. 

In Possession - as a reminder, these TI's are just that, TEAM settings. I have importantly over-ridden some of these settings with my selection of PRD (pos/role/duty) and PI's. Namely, the things that run counter to the TI, are the selected positions that have instructions to "roam more" and "dribble more".

Wide seems like it should be obvious, as I'm trying to force my team to increase width, as discussed. I've got play through the middle to encourage my faster possession/passing play through my playmakers in the middle. We have shorter passing as I only want select players to be making switches of play and through balls. Slightly higher tempo in order to encourage the two touch passing type of play. I have dribble less, as in general I want my team to pass first, although as noted some players are encouraged to drive into space. 

The overlap right is on as I want to occasionally overload the right side, and I also want to bring the mentality of the right flank players closer in line for more compactness on that flank.

image.png.00e0098e5a6b73f04de307715774ecb2.png

 

In Transition - I don't believe there are any surprises here. I do not have counter on, as that will quickly desolve my team structure. The team will still occasionally put the counter on, but we won't actively seek it as often. Counter pressing is an important concept to JdP, which is checked here but also why we use the 4231 formation to begin with.

image.png.dbabd99d0629b85d3aeb54c34ef8d26a.png

Out of Possession -  Maybe some surprises here? I have a standard defensive line, as I don't want to sacrifice too much compactness (normally I do the opposite with higher DL and one tick lower LOE), but because of our structure and seeking depth on the field, I really want to discourage my defensive line from getting too high and compressing our AoC. We urgently press to win the ball and that starts high up the pitch, including pressuring teams looking to play out from the back. This has been working very well in games I have managed, and honestly our defense is looking like it's really spot on to JdP so far.

image.png.3389488b275eb90d2e4f8215c87f35ad.png

 

Up next, I'll put together some more thoughts on what I consider absolutely paramount in my tactical decisions so far, and what I think could still use some tweaking, or other's could optionally mess with based on a different team, etc. Again, hope you're enjoying it.

 

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Also, if anyone is interested, I can do screenshots of each player with PI's as there are definitely tweaks there, some much more important than others.

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25 minutes ago, 04texag said:

Also, if anyone is interested, I can do screenshots of each player with PI's as there are definitely tweaks there, some much more important than others.

I second that. I’d love to see the PI’s! Can’t wait to try the tactic.

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Ok here is some PI information. BUT FIRST, this isn't a plug and play tactic. This is mostly an exploration of a style of play and its recreation. My current Portsmouth squad in 2031 is world class, ranked 4 in the world, with back to back PL titles and back to back CL final losses. Although the completely sim only results above with SLB and City would suggest the tactic can work, those are both teams with high expected league finishes. I'm not sure how a lower league, or mid table team would respond to this tactic. I'm guessing that the cautious mentality would create a lot of low scoring draws with a lesser team.

There are four players with hold position, as I need them to keep width, depth, and possession recycling.  

image.png.4bd9d35f6c2976c9293cc3f0dc329436.png

The CM needs to be a static possession recycler. My current players here all have player traits that get them further up the pitch, but I wish they didn't.

image.png.8487373fd8f18d9364ea2d459b8f0f6e.png

WB also has stay wider, which is super important.

image.png.d9dc24946a6597a6de57a08a8c7ffd78.png

The CD cover is important with these PI's to keep him deep.

image.png.93d7e15cfe9c704dc2c6bbac35d48926.png

 

There are three players with roaming and more aggressive/movement related PI's

image.png.451647ebaae41a22a25fa3b24d0a3b2a.png

image.png.da40ad074a603fcae543db8ba630cd67.png

image.png.97f727af9c50393259d4cd513e691868.png

Other two defenders have important instructions.

 

BP-St, I want to have staggered players, which we haven't really covered yet, but a key principle we might discuss later is the lines on the field and having few if any players in the same vertical or horizontal line. My BP pushes forward for both positional reasons and some possession/playmaking reasons.

image.png.b8b19765ff0cd5e1b434ee8d24cc1f23.png

FB-  this is one position I have played around with a lot. Here is a stock version I recommend, and one I'm playing with.

image.png.9d0466dfd4b41bce03b4eafc3e16d07b.png

image.png.22a2f1e8c49e8687788544848a33e639.png

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Its really good. But WInger with Hold position is what i never had success with. Does he really participate in build up? I felt that with Hold position he never offered himself to participate in build up.

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7 hours ago, ferrarinseb said:

Its really good. But WInger with Hold position is what i never had success with. Does he really participate in build up? I felt that with Hold position he never offered himself to participate in build up.

I have not had or noticed any issues with the winger offering any needed support in build up play. The hold position hasn't prevented him from dropping deep, either for support in transition or for defensive duties. It has however forced him to stay in the wider zone of his side of the pitch, which is necessary from someone. And due to my wanting layers on the field, which maybe I can do an overlay for using the analysis engine, it's good to get width on one flank from someone other than the fullback. 

 

When I'm back on the computer I'll try to pull up some position screenshots from the wingers game performances. 

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Just now, 04texag said:

I have not had or noticed any issues with the winger offering any needed support in build up play. The hold position hasn't prevented him from dropping deep, either for support in transition or for defensive duties. It has however forced him to stay in the wider zone of his side of the pitch, which is necessary from someone. And due to my wanting layers on the field, which maybe I can do an overlay for using the analysis engine, it's good to get width on one flank from someone other than the fullback. 

 

When I'm back on the computer I'll try to pull up some position screenshots from the wingers game performances. 

Thank you. I will be looking for it. Its just that when i tried to use Hold position for wide players they often stand still with out any help of build up , may be because i tried it before the last ME patch (Around jan or Feb) it might be the case.

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I was digging around looking for something else and came across some analysis of Pep's JdP while at Bayern. Below is a picture of one of my last games, the passing combinations overlaid on the heat map. Next to it, the analysis from Pep's squad. Not identical but a lot of shape similarities. 

image.png.e381b5328a3f005cc0e24479454e73e4.png

 

I've been focusing on the 4231, I wonder how I could translate this system using a 433(4123) with a halfback going deep and width from two wingbacks. 

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1 hour ago, 04texag said:

I was digging around looking for something else and came across some analysis of Pep's JdP while at Bayern. Below is a picture of one of my last games, the passing combinations overlaid on the heat map. Next to it, the analysis from Pep's squad. Not identical but a lot of shape similarities. 

image.png.e381b5328a3f005cc0e24479454e73e4.png

 

I've been focusing on the 4231, I wonder how I could translate this system using a 433(4123) with a halfback going deep and width from two wingbacks. 

I’d love to see it!

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2 hours ago, 04texag said:

I've been focusing on the 4231, I wonder how I could translate this system using a 433(4123) with a halfback going deep and width from two wingbacks. 

image.png.00e1996249ded3cb6c401e98f328085b.png

ML/MR provide width.. FB-S are better versions of IWB that don't roam and hold position sitting narrow.  Goal was to recreate Pep's 2-3-5 attacking shape at Bayern.  MR is the Robben role.  Still messing around with the AM-A position but definitely need it in the AMC level because that player drops way to deep in build up in the CM strata.

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2 hours ago, 04texag said:

I was digging around looking for something else and came across some analysis of Pep's JdP while at Bayern. Below is a picture of one of my last games, the passing combinations overlaid on the heat map. Next to it, the analysis from Pep's squad. Not identical but a lot of shape similarities. 

image.png.e381b5328a3f005cc0e24479454e73e4.png

 

I've been focusing on the 4231, I wonder how I could translate this system using a 433(4123) with a halfback going deep and width from two wingbacks. 

Yes taking the picture on right as a basis. 

Making your CM(S) into HB(D) can get your Alonso position with FB(S) for Rafinha and WB(S) for Bernat giving width. Would like to see your version and interpretations 

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35 minutes ago, Kharza_FM said:

image.png.00e1996249ded3cb6c401e98f328085b.png

ML/MR provide width.. FB-S are better versions of IWB that don't roam and hold position sitting narrow.  Goal was to recreate Pep's 2-3-5 attacking shape at Bayern.  MR is the Robben role.  Still messing around with the AM-A position but definitely need it in the AMC level because that player drops way to deep in build up in the CM strata.

This looks good on screen, I'll have to look into it. Is this something new you've put together? Looks like a lot of similar TI settings, good stuff. 

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Just now, 04texag said:

This looks good on screen, I'll have to look into it. Is this something new you've put together? Looks like a lot of similar TI settings, good stuff. 

I've been trying to create variations of Pep and positional play for the last 3 versions of FM.  I have found that Pep's system at Bayern seems to be the best system to actually get a close replica in the game for.  I like you have found that "Be More Discliplined" and "Dribble Less" where keys to this, but I did take the Cautious inspiration from you and switched from my usual Positive.. definitely made a difference.  What surprised me was that you also play without "Use Offside Trap".  I've found that this makes me ALOT less vulnerable to balls over the top.. although I do adjust between Standard and High defensive line depending on what I see in game in the first 15 minutes.  I also adjust passing directness and tempo from shorter->standard and tempo.  I always watch the first 15 minutes of a game and set the tempo to release the ball right before the defender closes down my players.

 

The thing I've been frustrated with the match engine is the positioning of the midfielders during build up.  They need to be BEYOND the first two lines of pressure and located around the center circle.  Below is the issue I've been working to resolve..

image.png.e5b7bebfac8782832172b14dce42d235.png

Blue is a midfielder in the CM strata and red is the AMC strata.  Notice the black lines are the lines of pressure and what should really happen here (i.e. the REAL game) is that the HB should be behind the first line of pressure (i.e. behind the striker) and the midfielders should be behind the second line of pressure (playing against a 4231 so in this case behind the line of AMCs).  The only way to get this behavior correct is to put the player in the AMC strata to start behind that second line of pressure.  In my case I want to use an RPM so I leave him in the CM strata to help build out and push my attacking midfielder into the AMC strata to start behind that second line of pressure.  This and a dropping deep F9 provide the necessary central build out option especially when you are pressed high during build out.

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1 ora fa, Kharza_FM ha scritto:

ML/MR provide width.. FB-S are better versions of IWB that don't roam and hold position sitting narrow.  Goal was to recreate Pep's 2-3-5 attacking shape at Bayern.  MR is the Robben role.  Still messing around with the AM-A position but definitely need it in the AMC level because that player drops way to deep in build up in the CM strata.

What about PI? Thank you

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26 minutes ago, Kharza_FM said:

The thing I've been frustrated with the match engine is the positioning of the midfielders during build up.  They need to be BEYOND the first two lines of pressure and located around the center circle.  Below is the issue I've been working to resolve..

This is interesting, I haven't noticed this issue. Do you have any player traits influencing this? I've played in the past with taking off play out of defense and doing short kicks to CB only. But you don't get the cbs splitting wide at the box. 

 

As for the offside trap, I used to always use it but I took it off to start simple and have not had the need yet to put it back on. I think with stopper and a cover player you generally want to avoid the trap since your back line is already staggered. I have a really fast cover defender and a standard line. I don't think I've concerned one chance to an over the top ball. 

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1 minute ago, 04texag said:

This is interesting, I haven't noticed this issue. Do you have any player traits influencing this? I've played in the past with taking off play out of defense and doing short kicks to CB only. But you don't get the cbs splitting wide at the box. 

Nope this is an engine issue in my opinion.. CM strata STARTING position is what is wrong.. they should start high and drop IF necessary to support.  One of the key principles is breaking lines of pressure with passes... can't do that if you aren't positioned there to begin with.  Watch on full highlights and you will see the issue.

3 minutes ago, 04texag said:

As for the offside trap, I used to always use it but I took it off to start simple and have not had the need yet to put it back on. I think with stopper and a cover player you generally want to avoid the trap since your back line is already staggered. I have a really fast cover defender and a standard line. I don't think I've concerned one chance to an over the top ball. 

Agreed but I also think there is some really bad logic in the engine with your defenders holding their offside position even though the ball is being played over the top.  Coaching real backline players you teach them to read if there is pressure on the ball.. if there is you hold the high line, but if there isn't pressure on the ball you drop to prevent getting beat over the top.  That behavior appears to be BETTER when you play WITHOUT offside trap.. go figure.

 

17 minutes ago, sejo said:

What about PI? Thank you

Fullbacks are indentical in PIs - Take Fewer Risks, Cut Inside with Ball, Hold Position, Sit Narrower

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1 hour ago, Kharza_FM said:

Nope this is an engine issue in my opinion.. CM strata STARTING position is what is wrong.. they should start high and drop IF necessary to support.  One of the key principles is breaking lines of pressure with passes... can't do that if you aren't positioned there to begin with.  Watch on full highlights and you will see the issue.

Agreed but I also think there is some really bad logic in the engine with your defenders holding their offside position even though the ball is being played over the top.  Coaching real backline players you teach them to read if there is pressure on the ball.. if there is you hold the high line, but if there isn't pressure on the ball you drop to prevent getting beat over the top.  That behavior appears to be BETTER when you play WITHOUT offside trap.. go figure.

 

Fullbacks are indentical in PIs - Take Fewer Risks, Cut Inside with Ball, Hold Position, Sit Narrower

So JUST fullbacks have PI’s and that it?

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1 hour ago, Kharza_FM said:

Agreed but I also think there is some really bad logic in the engine with your defenders holding their offside position even though the ball is being played over the top.  Coaching real backline players you teach them to read if there is pressure on the ball.. if there is you hold the high line, but if there isn't pressure on the ball you drop to prevent getting beat over the top.  That behavior appears to be BETTER when you play WITHOUT offside trap.. go figure.

I believe this is a ME "mistake" which endures from old times. In the past, some coaches trained this offside traps where the defenders anticipated the pass and stepped forward. Highly risky as you can imagine, so eventually everybody started working on defensive lines adjusting depth (mainly after Sacchi's success at AC Milan, but it took way to long to being usual - hell, even now there are still some managers who don't train this), covered and uncovered balls and pressing traps (way different from offside trap). TDLR: Offside Trap ≠ Depth Control

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4 minutes ago, lfds89 said:

I believe this is a ME "mistake" which endures from old times. In the past, some coaches trained this offside traps where the defenders anticipated the pass and stepped forward. Highly risky as you can imagine, so eventually everybody started working on defensive lines adjusting depth (mainly after Sacchi's success at AC Milan, but it took way to long to being usual - hell, even now there are still some managers who don't train this), covered and uncovered balls and pressing traps (way different from offside trap). TDLR: Offside Trap ≠ Depth Control

Exactly except we don't see that step forward like we would.. even defenders with 18+ anticipation don't do this behavior, which is what you would expect there.  The problem seems to be that the use of the offside trap instruction actually freezes that back line when the ball is played and doesn't let them drop in a situation where they should.. i.e. no pressure on the player on the ball about to play over the top.  I had noticed this in prior versions, but it appears to be much more pronounced in FM 20 than previously.

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12 hours ago, Kharza_FM said:

I've been trying to create variations of Pep and positional play for the last 3 versions of FM.  I have found that Pep's system at Bayern seems to be the best system to actually get a close replica in the game for.  I like you have found that "Be More Discliplined" and "Dribble Less" where keys to this, but I did take the Cautious inspiration from you and switched from my usual Positive.. definitely made a difference.  What surprised me was that you also play without "Use Offside Trap".  I've found that this makes me ALOT less vulnerable to balls over the top.. although I do adjust between Standard and High defensive line depending on what I see in game in the first 15 minutes.  I also adjust passing directness and tempo from shorter->standard and tempo.  I always watch the first 15 minutes of a game and set the tempo to release the ball right before the defender closes down my players.

 

The thing I've been frustrated with the match engine is the positioning of the midfielders during build up.  They need to be BEYOND the first two lines of pressure and located around the center circle.  Below is the issue I've been working to resolve..

image.png.e5b7bebfac8782832172b14dce42d235.png

Blue is a midfielder in the CM strata and red is the AMC strata.  Notice the black lines are the lines of pressure and what should really happen here (i.e. the REAL game) is that the HB should be behind the first line of pressure (i.e. behind the striker) and the midfielders should be behind the second line of pressure (playing against a 4231 so in this case behind the line of AMCs).  The only way to get this behavior correct is to put the player in the AMC strata to start behind that second line of pressure.  In my case I want to use an RPM so I leave him in the CM strata to help build out and push my attacking midfielder into the AMC strata to start behind that second line of pressure.  This and a dropping deep F9 provide the necessary central build out option especially when you are pressed high during build out.

I absolutely agree, the positioning of MC's are a bit odd in both 19 and 20. They are not high as they should be. The current real life CM's play close to AMC zone than DM Zone. 

Edit : I think you can give Zonal mark to create the player going to zone. So say you want your HB to be first line of pressure which is probably the AMC strata or STC Strata (zone) then zonal marking him will help you to do that. Similarly for RPM you can tell him to Zonal mark that area you want him to. I have tried to get more info on this but due to work couldn't get more on this. 

Edited by ferrarinseb
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@Kharza_FM @ferrarinseb @lfds89 Can you please get back to the topic of this thread, which is not about the ME and its bugs but a recreation of a specific style of play. Because otherwise I'll have no choice but to start removing your off-topic comments. 

Thank you :thup: 

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So I've found the following set of midfield roles to be decent for build out.. call it the Silva and De Bruyne roles although I still would like to use a MEZ.  If you want the extra man in build out you can change the De Bruyne role to RPM in the CM strata but I found this seems to work better and don't have any problems building out with back 3, fullbacks, and GK.  Maybe against a high pressing 442 I might change to RPM to get an extra man (7v6 instead of 6v6)

image.png.f59298ef9d9d79163a905cec212826a8.png

image.png.0372607d18ac2a092070ebdb129ad1a5.pngimage.png.7c49a27fba93c434e79fab24d853520e.png

Creates the below build out shape which is much better.

image.png.3aade2b9a15bc8efb58b3bec28c87a77.png

Edited by Experienced Defender
trying to argue with a mod (myself) needlessly
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Update - So my team has been playing fairly well, we have a 40 game unbeaten streak going right now. I'd say we are defensively very solid. That said, we are lacking some attacking impetus. Last season, my striker netted 41 goals, but so far this season he's got 2-3 after about 8 games or so, not good enough. We are winning, but it's usually 1-0 with the occasionally 3 goal game. I'm going to play with the tactic some to get a little more attacking momentum and movement going. Below is what I'm testing, this is not validated yet. I'll do an update after I get about a month's worth of games with these tweaks, and then I'll also post some information about my typical in-game tactical tweaks. Cheers.

image.png.62d4c171f298844fa380382d151041fc.png

 

Changes -  IW moved to Attack, CM moved to Defend. Team mentality to positive, with much shorter passing, lower tempo. Pass into space and hit early crosses are things I put on and off based on in game performance.

image.png.d9307ac54ebe46d2a99d7eadecf6f999.png

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@04texag Humor me and try this.. Go back to Cautious and set passing Directness to "Standard" and tempo to "Higher" - I was struggling with the same issue and tried changing the mentality but found that just raising the tempo seemed to do the trick.

I'd also recommend your IW-A have "Take More Risks" - should give you AP-A, RPM, and IW-A with more risky passes to help unlock the defense a bit.

 

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Thanks, I'll definitely try that. I've found before that sometimes lowering tempo helps to give the defense more time to close a ball carrier down, which of course creates space. But, I'm facing teams that are regrouping and sitting deep. I have not tried standard passing yet but maybe should give it a go. 

The three players you mention are all the roaming risk takers, so giving the IW-A that PI makes sense. 

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@04texag

I think instead of Much shorter passing. Go to Standard in lower mentalities(standard and Lower) but set players at the back or with hold positions PI/ less risk choice roles to pass it shorter and your Play maker at Standard or More Direct. The Tempo can be adjusted accordingly as you see fit. That way you can see your Play maker taking risks but he still participate in build up and possibly unlock AF(A). 

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Definitely strong defensively too.. haven't conceded in 11 games in a row.

ScreenClip.png.6d3193aa95d24b9a7567422ce55d018e.png

 

Here is my current 433 iteration that I'm pretty happy with

ScreenClip.png.198a92ff8d13cfb3e627baaad88d3eb0.png

My main IW-A has 7 goals and 6 assists in 9 games

Main AP-A has 1 goal and 5 assists

Rotating 2 different strikers right now and one has 4 goals 2 assists in 9 games and the other has 3 goals 2 assists in 9 games

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3 hours ago, Kharza_FM said:

Definitely strong defensively too.. haven't conceded in 11 games in a row.

ScreenClip.png.6d3193aa95d24b9a7567422ce55d018e.png

 

Here is my current 433 iteration that I'm pretty happy with

ScreenClip.png.198a92ff8d13cfb3e627baaad88d3eb0.png

My main IW-A has 7 goals and 6 assists in 9 games

Main AP-A has 1 goal and 5 assists

Rotating 2 different strikers right now and one has 4 goals 2 assists in 9 games and the other has 3 goals 2 assists in 9 games

Are there any PIs for the defenders and wingers?

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8 hours ago, Kharza_FM said:

@04texag Humor me and try this.. Go back to Cautious and set passing Directness to "Standard" and tempo to "Higher" - I was struggling with the same issue and tried changing the mentality but found that just raising the tempo seemed to do the trick.

I'd also recommend your IW-A have "Take More Risks" - should give you AP-A, RPM, and IW-A with more risky passes to help unlock the defense a bit.

 

Finally home after a long day at work, and first game trying this change has been stellar. Ironically, it's my second team playing as we are playing a 19th placed team, but they are crushing it. My AF-A has a hat trick. I'll be interested to see how the main squad all do in the next few games.

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11 hours ago, 04texag said:

Thanks, I'll definitely try that. I've found before that sometimes lowering tempo helps to give the defense more time to close a ball carrier down, which of course creates space. But, I'm facing teams that are regrouping and sitting deep. I have not tried standard passing yet but maybe should give it a go. 

The three players you mention are all the roaming risk takers, so giving the IW-A that PI makes sense. 

If teams are regrouping and sitting back against you, I would suggest lower tempo and standard passing. Also play wider. 

For this playing style your players are good at keeping the ball, so I would also add Work Ball Into Box. With these instructions you should move them around and patiently wait for opening. You can also have overlapping on both flanks or try underlap on one side for variation. 

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