Best way to approach fm?

[dannyrefc]

What is the best way to approach football manager? 

Is it to learn and understand real footballing ideas and tactical principles of play. 

Is it to learn more the weaknesses of the games engine and manipulate your tactics to a way that takes advantage 

Or is it a mix of both? 

How do you approach it? A simulation of the real game or the arcade style learning the games vulnerabilities and maximizing the advantages taken of this

Id like to hear what people prefer to do 

[frukox]

47 minutes ago, dannyrefc said:

What is the best way to approach football manager? 

Is it to learn and understand real footballing ideas and tactical principles of play. 

Is it to learn more the weaknesses of the games engine and manipulate your tactics to a way that takes advantage 

Or is it a mix of both? 

How do you approach it? A simulation of the real game or the arcade style learning the games vulnerabilities and maximizing the advantages taken of this

Id like to hear what people prefer to do 

I personally like to create a standard tactic. Then, I tweak it a little bit on a match-to-match basis depending on the opposition just like a RL manager. I also like to give team-talks according to the context I am in. Then, at full time generally I either praise deserved ones or criticize underperforming player. This is also applied to training performances. So, to put it short, it’s kind of an enjoyable simulation game for me.

[rockpie]

2 hours ago, dannyrefc said:

What is the best way to approach football manager? 

Is it to learn and understand real footballing ideas and tactical principles of play. 

Is it to learn more the weaknesses of the games engine and manipulate your tactics to a way that takes advantage 

Or is it a mix of both? 

How do you approach it? A simulation of the real game or the arcade style learning the games vulnerabilities and maximizing the advantages taken of this

Id like to hear what people prefer to do 

It's both.

Learning / understanding real football ideas and tactical principles is important so that I know what type of football I'm trying to achieve -- what I'm trying to simulate.

Learning / understanding how to replicate that in the game engine, manipulating my tactics to produce the desired result, is important to successfully translate those real-world principles to the game.

You don't have to look for arcade-style exploits to win. For me, it's more about exploring what is possible in the match engine and simulating different styles as best I can.

Edited December 10, 2019 by rockpie

[Nikitas]

2 hours ago, dannyrefc said:

What is the best way to approach football manager? 

Is it to learn and understand real footballing ideas and tactical principles of play. 

Is it to learn more the weaknesses of the games engine and manipulate your tactics to a way that takes advantage 

Or is it a mix of both? 

How do you approach it? A simulation of the real game or the arcade style learning the games vulnerabilities and maximizing the advantages taken of this

Id like to hear what people prefer to do 

Depends on how you want to play the game.

While I'm sure there are some 'crazy' exploit tactics out there, I 've never used any because it takes away all the fun. I mean you may be winning but you don't know why.

I prefer to set up my tactic according to the players at my disposal. It is way more enjoyable trying to figure how to get the best out of your players on your own.

Of course, it would be helpful to read some FM guides in this forum or elsewhere online. It will help you understand better how tactics work ingame.

[tyro]

For me personally it is just taking a club, setting up a standard tactic and tweaking it a bit when I see things could be better.

I would not nor could I exploit the system. I am sure it is a challenge in itself to do that but after you have done it, you probably lose the "fun" in the game.

I think most important is to see what aspect you like to do, for some it is the tactics, for others the transfers, for others the youth development, etc. And then focus on that and maybe delegate your staff for the rest or pay less attention to it.

 

[Tetsuro P12]

Give up. Don't buy. They will win you Away.

Anyway, it's not a football game, it's a chess game, so you don't need to understand football, just have logic.

Edited December 10, 2019 by Tetsuro P12

[Experienced Defender]

4 hours ago, dannyrefc said:

What is the best way to approach football manager?

It's relative, because everyone has their own approach. Mine is this: 

4 hours ago, dannyrefc said:

to learn and understand real footballing ideas and tactical principles of play

I'd rather opt to underperform with a normal tactic that makes sense from the perspective of real-life football than win all the matches and trophies by exploiting the ME with some totally senseless exploit tactic. But that's just me 

[wynter]

Personal philosophy is to create teams that replicate a style I'd like to watch IRL. Which for me is free-flowing attacking football. Then it becomes manipulating the player roles/formation until I hit upon something I like/looks aesthetically pleasing and then I see how it does in matches. If it's not working I either tinker, or throw something else out. 

A lot of my early saves are basically testing a set system to see how it works and then I find the saves I really want to do and use those early save formations as my template/a base to continue tinkering with, keeping it all fresh. FM above all is a video game, if I'm sitting her watching models move on a laptop, I want it to have been something I made and also be something fun.

[FMunderachiever]

18 hours ago, dannyrefc said:

What is the best way to approach football manager? 

Is it to learn and understand real footballing ideas and tactical principles of play. 

Is it to learn more the weaknesses of the games engine and manipulate your tactics to a way that takes advantage 

Or is it a mix of both? 

How do you approach it? A simulation of the real game or the arcade style learning the games vulnerabilities and maximizing the advantages taken of this

Id like to hear what people prefer to do 

id probably start with a club youre very familiar with and try and emulate the good elements of their style, from that then learn how ingame tweaks and reponses to the opposition change the tactic and then look to implement new ideas with new clubs

[edwinisdenim]

On 10/12/2019 at 20:02, Tetsuro P12 said:

Give up. Don't buy. They will win you Away.

Anyway, it's not a football game, it's a chess game, so you don't need to understand football, just have logic.

That is pretty much what I think too. But without the right players, it'll be harder for you to win the 'chess' game. 

[Tetsuro P12]

1 hour ago, edwinisdenim said:

That is pretty much what I think too. But without the right players, it'll be harder for you to win the 'chess' game. 

I sometimes feel discouraged. Like if I miss a home game, then followed by two hard matches away morale plummets and the entire season gets compromised. For example I started well with Aldershot (a generally weak team in its championship), mid september I was 6°, than missed some matches (away, by nothin... just one goal, while generally dominating the match) and then morale plummeted and started to miss home games too. I'm now 11 out of 24, board is happy, though me not really. It feel so 'randomy', as per say. Latest game 22-6 shots, 55% possession for us but we draw. Well I'm not competetive like the AI away, and I'm talking just about score. There even if I dominate the matches generally I lose, by one goal, but lose.

[edwinisdenim]

6 minutes ago, Tetsuro P12 said:

I sometimes feel discouraged. Like if I miss a home game, then followed by two hard matches away morale plummets and the entire season gets compromised. For example I started well with Aldershot (a generally weak team in its championship), mid september I was 6°, than missed some matches (away, by nothin... just one goal, while generally dominating the match) and then morale plummeted and started to miss home games too. I'm now 11 out of 24, board is happy, though me not really. It feel so 'randomy', as per say. Latest game 22-6 shots, 55% possession for us but we draw. Well I'm not competetive like the AI away, and I'm talking just about score. There even if I dominate the matches generally I lose, by one goal, but lose.

Speaking about this. I have this problem lately. Managing Man Utd. Sold off Lukaku, a day before the first game vs Arsenal. Drew a lot. Win a match or two. Then lost a lot too. Players all in good mood but the squad couldn't score to win, mainly because my main striker has left. It almost made me want to reload and play again. But I endured it massively. 

Eventually, my young striker finally stepped up, entering the new year. 

My point is - sometimes i think the game wants to put you through this period and then it will slowly come up again. In the past, I will reload and replay until I win, win and win to gain that confidence back. 

This time, I just endured and finally I get back my winning streak. But of course, I didn't win the league that season. Ended up Number 3 w Spurs won the league under Pep. 

[Tetsuro P12]

42 minutes ago, edwinisdenim said:

Speaking about this. I have this problem lately. Managing Man Utd. Sold off Lukaku, a day before the first game vs Arsenal. Drew a lot. Win a match or two. Then lost a lot too. Players all in good mood but the squad couldn't score to win, mainly because my main striker has left. It almost made me want to reload and play again. But I endured it massively. 

Eventually, my young striker finally stepped up, entering the new year. 

My point is - sometimes i think the game wants to put you through this period and then it will slowly come up again. In the past, I will reload and replay until I win, win and win to gain that confidence back. 

This time, I just endured and finally I get back my winning streak. But of course, I didn't win the league that season. Ended up Number 3 w Spurs won the league under Pep. 

I don't reload because I do feel cheating, but I don't even feel confident with my tactics. Even when I found the perfect one the game will cheat on me and I end up modifying it all the time. I decided to keep a working tactics safe in a specific folder, just for guarantee, and I'm now testing it with multiple teams in different championship to see how all they end up.

Lately the board come up saying 'not happy with the pressing', so to please the board too I upped it. I don't think that this requirements should be in the board confidence part, because to please the board the player can brewk its own working tactic. As you say there are artificial things the game put in place (play worse away, board not confident with a particular setting in your tactic, etc.) that end up ruining the experience. Eventually players morale in the game is very fragile and Sigames expect that us speak with the players, not everyone has the time, nor the patience, to do that and take that artificial boost. 

I think you can do well with just one forward with the proper tactic, you can do without Lukaku too.

Edited December 12, 2019 by Tetsuro P12

[herne79]

2 hours ago, Tetsuro P12 said:

I don't reload because I do feel cheating, but I don't even feel confident with my tactics. Even when I found the perfect one the game will cheat on me and I end up modifying it all the time.

The game really doesn't cheat us.  There is nothing written into the game to do that.

[dannyrefc]

So what about real life implementation, do people try to carbon copy principles of play or adjust to suit match engine 

[Tetsuro P12]

1 hour ago, herne79 said:

The game really doesn't cheat us.  There is nothing written into the game to do that.

Fact is that it's far more difficult to win away. That can't be a coincidence or tactical fragility.

Don't know about luck. What I know is that if one player on the field make a stupid mistake, es. heading back to opponent player in own area, that would be mine, why? It's not wrong movements, it's plain mistakes. And why my team, playing away against a superior adversary, keep sweeping the ball (without any hurry! Could do whatever he want, with friendly players moving righty, but decide to sweep), while at home against the same team do correct passages? Well... sound suspect.

[rockpie]

7 minutes ago, Tetsuro P12 said:

Fact is that it's far more difficult to win away.

You mean just like it is in real life?

Teams play different at home than they do away from home. There are different expectations, different elements of pressure, different atmospheres to account for, etc.

At home, on their own pitch, in front of their own fans, with opposition teams applying less pressure, players feel more comfortable. This is not suspect, this is just part of football.

[herne79]

6 minutes ago, Tetsuro P12 said:

Fact is that it's far more difficult to win away. That can't be a coincidence or tactical fragility.

Of course it's harder to win away than at home, that's true in real life and in FM.  But the context of each match is important, as explained to you before.

8 minutes ago, Tetsuro P12 said:

Don't know about luck. What I know is that if one player on the field make a stupid mistake, es. heading back to opponent player in own area, that would be mine, why? It's not wrong movements, it's plain mistakes. And why my team, playing away against a superior adversary, keep sweeping the ball (without any hurry! Could do whatever he want, with friendly players moving righty, but decide to sweep), while at home against the same team do correct passages?

We have no idea how you are playing.  If you need some help start a new thread and perhaps someone can offer you suggestions.

8 minutes ago, Tetsuro P12 said:

Well... sound suspect.

I'll repeat - there is nothing built into the game to "cheat" us.  We have the exact same tools at our disposal as AI teams do and the Match Engine can't even tell the difference between human and AI controlled teams.

So enough of the conspiracy theories please.  If you want some help, ask for it .

[Tetsuro P12]

9 minutes ago, rockpie said:

You mean just like it is in real life?

Teams play different at home than they do away from home. There are different expectations, different elements of pressure, different atmospheres to account for, etc.

At home, on their own pitch, in front of their own fans, with opposition teams applying less pressure, players feel more comfortable. This is not suspect, this is just part of football.

Watch latest results in Champions League: Brugge-Madrid 1-3, Leverkusen-Juventus 0-2, Zagabria-Manchester 1-4, Shaktar-Atalanta 0-3. When a team is clearly stronger it wins.

8 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Of course it's harder to win away than at home, that's true in real life and in FM.  But the context of each match is important, as explained to you before.

We have no idea how you are playing.  If you need some help start a new thread and perhaps someone can offer you suggestions.

I'll repeat - there is nothing built into the game to "cheat" us.  We have the exact same tools at our disposal as AI teams do and the Match Engine can't even tell the difference between human and AI controlled teams.

So enough of the conspiracy theories please.  If you want some help, ask for it .

I'm talking about individual player errors.

Since everything is equal you are winning away games like the AI?

Edited December 12, 2019 by Tetsuro P12

[dannyrefc]

Tetsuro make your own thread please i dont want mine derailed, im not interested in your post of why things happen the threads about peoples tactical approach to the game and quite frankly you spout nonsense cheerio. 

[Experienced Defender]

6 hours ago, edwinisdenim said:

Managing Man Utd. Sold off Lukaku

Wait a minute... if you talk about Man Utd in FM20, then Lukaku has already gone (to Inter). Right?

[melogroovy]

There is more to the game than just tactics.  How are the players "feeling" coming off their last game or run of games?  Are heads dropping or are they overconfident?   What do you say in the pregame presser?  Do you challenge the players before the game?  What do you say at the half?  I don't leave these to my AssMan because they do make a difference with the result of the game.

I've experimented over the years with different types of teams and the way I approached my team talks with them.  Some teams you have to challenge against a weaker opponent.  Some teams need to coddled through a poor patch until you can squeeze one or two good draws out of them before they start winning games again.

Man management isn't a HUGE component of winning in the game but it surely is a component of your overall success.

 

 

 

 

[herne79]

3 hours ago, dannyrefc said:

So what about real life implementation, do people try to carbon copy principles of play or adjust to suit match engine 

It's kind of both (for me anyway).

We'll never get a 1:1 copy of real life play in the ME but we can draw inspiration from real life and adopt certain principles, so if we want to play a heavy pressing game, counter attacking football or heavily possession focussed (for example) we can - albeit within certain limitations.  A basic real life understanding of these things can help implement these styles in the game.

Understanding how the tactical instructions then work and combine with each other (and our players) then helps us translate those ideas into the match engine.  imo it's those combinations which aren't always implemented properly and where people can come unstuck. 

So for example lets take Liverpool and Trent Alexander-Arnold.  It's fairly natural to think Liverpool are a pretty attacking team, with a heavy pressing game and TAA gets forward a lot with overlaps to provide crosses / support.  Nothing wrong with that, that's a basic real life assessment.  But then we come to translating that into tactics and the ME.  Attacking Mentality + lots of additional pressing + the look for overlap instruction + an attack duty Wingback.  Again nothing essentially wrong with that until we look at how these things combine.  Mentality affects not only team instructions but also individual player mentalities.  So the chosen Mentality is now making an already very forward thinking wingback even more forward thinking.  The look for overlap instruction adds even more forward thinking mentality to TAA as well.  Plus TAA has his own Trait to get forward often.  End result?  You've basically got a winger on your hands who isn't overly interested in defending.  The same goes for Pressing - the Attacking Mentality sets a high level of pressing by default and yet more gets lumped on using the TI (and/or PIs).

Now none of that is "wrong", it just may have unintentional results compared to how we want to play and how we are trying to translate the real life principles into the ME.  It's this type of thing that can (not always) result in "ME broken" claims.  In the TAA example above, I'd probably drop him down to a Wingback (defend) assuming I stuck with the Attacking Mentality due to the impact of Mentality on individual player roles and his own Trait to get forward often.

[dannyrefc]

I see herne a very detailed and great response. What i take from that is that while people may have a good grasp of a philosophy or tactical style but then when it comes to implementing into the engine some of us unnecessarily add things we interpret from what we see when the setup and mentality could be providing what we want naturally and roles and dutys the same. So it is more a lack of ingame tactic engine knowledge or understanding. 

Naturally then whats the method to taking an idea of football and implementing it? 

Also this is something related so o will add it here. This is in no way a dig at anyone on these forums merely an observation. 

Say ive become highly influenced by arrigo sacchi jurgen klopp and rinus michels, i want my FM team to display a hybrid of these guys philosophy, one look at a sacchi milan and im clicking mh dl mh loe extreme urgency and an offside trap.  I believe if i came here with that it would be labelled suicide. Therefore how would one hypothetically produce the sacchi style of press and high octane football without comiting through ball suicide, as in my mind theres no way arrigo lowers that line or turns off the intensity of press or stops using a trap,  is this the limitations of the game where certain styles as sacchi would just work poorly ME wise? Hope this makes sense to you people :=) 

[herne79]

45 minutes ago, dannyrefc said:

Say ive become highly influenced by arrigo sacchi jurgen klopp and rinus michels, i want my FM team to display a hybrid of these guys philosophy

So something nice and simple then .

46 minutes ago, dannyrefc said:

Therefore how would one hypothetically produce the sacchi style of press and high octane football without comiting through ball suicide, as in my mind theres no way arrigo lowers that line or turns off the intensity of press or stops using a trap,  is this the limitations of the game where certain styles as sacchi would just work poorly ME wise? Hope this makes sense to you people :=) 

The first thing you could do is search the forum as there have been threads about Sacchi .

However lets pretend there aren't any and we have a blank slate.  The first thing to do (imo) is understand different people will have different views on Sacchi's Milan.  Some may consider Van Basten to be a Poacher, others perhaps an Advanced Forward, others still maybe an attacking Complete Forward.  The only thing that matters (initially anyway) is your own interpretation of roles and a style of play.  Perhaps you see Ancelotti as an RPM and Rijkard as a BWM.  Maybe you think they're better suited to play from the DM position rather than the CM position.  Then you think of Sacchi's MIlan's style, so a stupidly high def line, lots of aggressive play in a 442 formation.  And of course you have to consider your players - are they capable of playing in that style?  Do they have any Traits which may help (or hinder)?

So that's your starting point - your own interpretation of a real life footballing style.  But at the same time of thinking in those terms you've already been considering how to implement those thoughts into the tactic creator.

[dannyrefc]

Brilliant again. Let me go again.

To me liverpool clearly have there wide men as inside forwards on attack surely? In attack they often resemble a diamond with mane an salah high and narrow with firmino dropping deep, but on here i would be recommended not being symettrical on both sides but klopp seems to go with symettrical roles on his wings and rarely with a midfield runner from deep, they seem to have the 3 mids cover for the wbs etc now 

[Robson 07]

I think you have to understand a bit about FM, get the basic concepts down before you can move on to replicating known real life systems.

Essentially the tactic formation in game gives you a defensive shape and you have to visualise how your roles and duties transform into an attacking shape.

Picking up some old information and paraphrasing it, attack duties will add more numbers to the striker and final third.   Support duties will add more to the midfield and defend duties will add bodies to the defensive third.

I then like to add something else to this, just helps me sometimes.  I split the midfield part into two pieces, a defensive midfield and attacking midfield.  I then factor in Team Mentality.  If I use a more aggressive team mentality those support players get drawn more into the attacking midfield part.  Whereas if I use a lower - than balanced - mentality those support players become more defensive midfield orientated.

It's a simplistic view but there you have it.

Edited December 17, 2019 by Robson 07

[Finners]

Football Manager is a sandbox game, there's no right or wrong way of playing as long as you're enjoying it.

There's forever been arguments on here about whether you should apply the principles of real football to your tactics or whether you should build one purely with the match engine in mind and treat the ME as its own "sport" in a sense. 

The truest answer is that you can win games, cups, leagues, et all doing it both ways so just do whatever makes you happy. 

I'd imagine the most munchkin, optimal answer is always going to be a hybrid of both - as in, making a system to exploit the match engine is always going to be the ultimate move, however, understanding the principles of football (space, movement, balance, et all) is always going to be beneficial in doing that. 

[FMunderachiever]

5 hours ago, Finners said:

Football Manager is a sandbox game, there's no right or wrong way of playing as long as you're enjoying it.

There's forever been arguments on here about whether you should apply the principles of real football to your tactics or whether you should build one purely with the match engine in mind and treat the ME as its own "sport" in a sense. 

The truest answer is that you can win games, cups, leagues, et all doing it both ways so just do whatever makes you happy. 

I'd imagine the most munchkin, optimal answer is always going to be a hybrid of both - as in, making a system to exploit the match engine is always going to be the ultimate move, however, understanding the principles of football (space, movement, balance, et all) is always going to be beneficial in doing that. 

Basically this.

Understanding real football, but also understanding you have to "beat the game" which means beating the people writing the game, which means understanding their interpretations of positions and roles and exploiting them.