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Making Good Decisions During Matches

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More of this kind of thing is needed on here, well done sir. 

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Good thread mate.

Depressing thing is I didn't have a clue what was wrong in the 1st clip, I just don't have a tactical brain at all. Makes me think any chance of me having success is virtually zero.

Edited by Gee_Simpson

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great post.

it's a pity that my ca-gillion pound midfield can't seem to figure even the most obvious in game adjustment out for themselves. i'm not enjoying having to micro manage at game time in fm20

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Really good post.   What level of detail do you watch on, full, comprehensive?

Also you talk about keeping the individual personality of real life players which I like, but what do you do with Xhaka?   He's surely not a B@B or Ball Winning Midfielder? 

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Glad some people are finding this helpful. :thup:

 

10 minutes ago, Clifton said:

What level of detail do you watch on, full, comprehensive?

Extended highlights is enough for me, but like I say in the post if the opposition creates something dangerous I will pause, re-watch that highlight and try to identify what needs to be changed to stop it happening again.

In this particular save, Xhaka spends most of his time on the bench. I use him in Europa league and as a sub/rotational B2B midfielder, backup to Guendouzi.

Edited by rockpie

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Is there any hope for people like me who couldn't spot what was wrong in clip 1? Is it just about taking more time to analyse the situation and think of as many possibilities as you can? 

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2 minutes ago, Gee_Simpson said:

Is there any hope for people like me who couldn't spot what was wrong in clip 1? Is it just about taking more time to analyse the situation and think of as many possibilities as you can? 

Yeah, do as he suggested and whenever you concede or almost concede (or score actually), pause the game, go overhead, put it on slow and try and see why it happened... is your back line to high? are there certain players always out of position? are your players close enough to mark and close down the opposition? (or even TOO close) ..  why are the opposition getting so much joy down a particular wing? etc .  You'll soon start picking it up while watching the match in real time too

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25 minutes ago, Gee_Simpson said:

Is there any hope for people like me who couldn't spot what was wrong in clip 1? Is it just about taking more time to analyse the situation and think of as many possibilities as you can? 

Definitely mate.

Think of it like recognizing repeating patterns. Nobody expects you to get it first time.

Imagine that you're really bad with numbers, like you can barely count to 10.

You see:

2, 4, 6, 8, 10...

Maybe at first you don't know that 12 will come next in the pattern, but you see it play out that way a few times.

Then you see the same scenario playing out again and again:

2, 4, 6, 8, 10...

"I think 12 is going to come next here, but I'm not sure"

12 comes next.

"Hey I was right!"

And again and again:

2, 4, 6, 8, 10...

"12 is super likely to come next here!"

Bingo. Works like that. Recognizing patterns that are likely to show up regularly in the game.

The more time you spend picking them up and making logical decisions based on them, the better you'll get at making the right adjustments at the right time.

It doesn't mean you'll ever get it with 100% accuracy. And it doesn't mean that making the right decision every time will pay off.

It's just about making it more likely, increasing your chance of winning, as much as you can based on what you're seeing.

Edited by rockpie

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I don't understand your solution to the first issue.

Is the same problem now not present if the CB on the other side for West Ham receives the ball?

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10 hours ago, Obaaa said:

I don't understand your solution to the first issue.

Is the same problem now not present if the CB on the other side for West Ham receives the ball?

No, because West Ham's player roles are not going to be identical on the left and right side.

The players and the threats they pose are going to be different too.

I specifically want to stop Ogbonna, who judging from that pass I can guess is set as a BPD in the AI tactic, hitting long diagonals towards Yarmolenko as we see there; because I know Tierney doesn't stand much of a chance winning anything in the air against that specific player.

Felipe Anderson on the other wing isn't as much of an aerial threat and I know that Bellerin can beat him for pace, so by making the move I suggested it helps to cut out a big threat to me.

It's addressing a specific threat based on what I can see (match engine), what I can check (Pellegrini profile) and what I know about the opposition players (height, weight, attributes, probable roles).

The switch of my 2 CM roles from left to right shouldn't be taken in a vacuum either, since I'm also making an adjustment to how high I will engage the opposition. All of this combined is how I think I can prevent a similar situation happening again.

It's never a 100% guarantee, which is why I also say to keep a mental note and check the positioning next time there's a relevant highlight.

If further changes or adjustments are needed based on what I see then, I can address them.

Edited by rockpie

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On 02/12/2019 at 13:41, Welshace said:

Yeah, do as he suggested and whenever you concede or almost concede (or score actually), pause the game, go overhead, put it on slow and try and see why it happened... is your back line to high? are there certain players always out of position? are your players close enough to mark and close down the opposition? (or even TOO close) ..  why are the opposition getting so much joy down a particular wing? etc .  You'll soon start picking it up while watching the match in real time too

Thanks mate. 

On 02/12/2019 at 13:56, rockpie said:

Definitely mate.

Think of it like recognizing repeating patterns. Nobody expects you to get it first time.

Imagine that you're really bad with numbers, like you can barely count to 10.

You see:

2, 4, 6, 8, 10...

Maybe at first you don't know that 12 will come next in the pattern, but you see it play out that way a few times.

Then you see the same scenario playing out again and again:

2, 4, 6, 8, 10...

"I think 12 is going to come next here, but I'm not sure"

12 comes next.

"Hey I was right!"

And again and again:

2, 4, 6, 8, 10...

"12 is super likely to come next here!"

Bingo. Works like that. Recognizing patterns that are likely to show up regularly in the game.

The more time you spend picking them up and making logical decisions based on them, the better you'll get at making the right adjustments at the right time.

It doesn't mean you'll ever get it with 100% accuracy. And it doesn't mean that making the right decision every time will pay off.

It's just about making it more likely, increasing your chance of winning, as much as you can based on what you're seeing.

Cheers mate. What's your opinion on Cleon's mentality that it's better to only focus on your own team rather than the opposition? Some people agree with it, some people disagree with it. I'm not sure where I stand tbh. 

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Hi @rockpie and good job on your analyzing.

That is something I've always struggles with and want to improve on.

I played recently played an home game were I conceded late in the match (90+).

This happened:
https://youtu.be/L60IekXfF7c

 

I changed my mentality to defensive in the last minutes to try to secure the lead and I fear that worked against me.

Cause from what I can see the goal came from giving them too much time on the ball.

Am I right assuming this or could you enlighten me with you analyzing skills?

 

This is was my setup at the point they scored (I usally play on a attacking mentality):

image.png

Edited by Continum

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@rockpie

Thanks, mate. This is brilliant. I was just wondering if you have any examples of how you made some decisions to change the dynamics of the game, when attacking?

As your original post focuses on the defensive side of the game, I would love to know how and what sort of changes you make when going forward.

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13 hours ago, Gee_Simpson said:

What's your opinion on Cleon's mentality that it's better to only focus on your own team rather than the opposition?

Definitely focus on your own team more than anything else. You still want to dictate the style of play.

I rarely, almost never, completely move away from the core principles I want from my team.

But, in FM20 so far at least, the way I'm enjoying the game and finding the most success is by making small adjustments before and during matches to account for each opposition.

90% of things stay the same, but a little tweak here & there can make a difference.

 

7 hours ago, Caka said:

I was just wondering if you have any examples of how you made some decisions to change the dynamics of the game, when attacking?

If I have time I might post something about attacking situations soon / on the weekend.

 

12 hours ago, Continum said:

I played recently played an home game were I conceded late in the match (90+).

I changed my mentality to defensive in the last minutes to try to secure the lead and I fear that worked against me.

Cause from what I can see the goal came from giving them too much time on the ball.

Am I right assuming this or could you enlighten me with you analyzing skills?

Definitely looks like you went too defensive there. Cautious probably would probably be as defensive as I go at home, especially if I'm the bigger team.

One other comment is that when you move to a Cautious or Defensive mentality, it might be worth changing formation too. Dropping from a 4-2-3-1 down to a more compact 4-1-4-1 or something to get more players positioned behind the ball.

I would also probably remove the instructions asking them to Counter, Counter Press, Play Out Of Defense, Run At Defense and Work Ball Into Box -- all of which combined can lead to them playing themselves into trouble when you don't really have much interest in them doing any of that. You just want them to see the game out.

My Team Instructions in a similar situation might look something like this:

Cautious Mentality

In Possession - Shorter Passing, Waste Time Frequently

In Transition - Regroup, Slow Pace Down

Out Of Possession - Lower Line of Engagement, More Urgent Pressing, Tight Marking, Stay On Feet

Switch LWB from (s) to (d), change AF to PF (s) - player roles also have to make sense with the new approach, advanced forward doesn't suit how you want him to play now.

If I REALLY wanted to shut up shop, also change formation to 4-1-4-1 with the 2 widemen becoming WM (s).

Edited by rockpie

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On 01/12/2019 at 12:35, rockpie said:

Importantly, I want ALL my attacking players to be constantly searching out space to receive passes and make runs, so I set all of them to Roam From Position and Move Into Channels where possible.

Really good post, thank you.

How far do you find these players roaming from their position? Is it clearly noticeable during the game? And to what extend do you think the 'roam from position' PI differs from the 'be more expressive' TI? I want to see better movement from my players, but for some reason I try to avoid PIs, so I tend to tick the be more expressive TI.

Thanks again, really interesting post, and it seems you've had slightly more success than my last few saves!

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7 hours ago, rockpie said:

Definitely focus on your own team more than anything else. You still want to dictate the style of play.

I rarely, almost never, completely move away from the core principles I want from my team.

But, in FM20 so far at least, the way I'm enjoying the game and finding the most success is by making small adjustments before and during matches to account for each opposition.

90% of things stay the same, but a little tweak here & there can make a difference.

Question related to this: I'm playing as Leverkusen employing a 4-3-3 Positive Gegenpress (mostly in line with the preset). There are times where the high defensive line looks vulnerable to balls in over the top and behind. However, dropping this line down negatively impacts our core philosophy of pressing high up the pitch. It would appear that in this case, the minor tweak that could solidify us would also adversely affect the game we want to play. Naturally we can't control everything; how do you strike a balance between reacting to trouble when it may take you away from your style? 

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23 hours ago, ryandormer said:

Really good post, thank you.

How far do you find these players roaming from their position? Is it clearly noticeable during the game? And to what extend do you think the 'roam from position' PI differs from the 'be more expressive' TI?

 

It's not an extreme amount. You won't find your left winger showing up on the right flank, for example.

This is only my personal speculation, but to get the most out of the Roam From Position instruction, I think players need great attributes for:

  • Anticipation - They need to be able to anticipate passes from teammates + the positioning of opposition defenders.
  • Decisions - They need to make good decisions when to move into space vs when to stay put.
  • Off The Ball - They need to be able to position themselves well within space.
  • Vision - They need to be able to recognize a good space vs a bad space to move into.

I think these work together when players are "figuring out" where and when they move on the pitch. But again, that's my own opinion, not a confirmed game mechanic.

The difference between the Roam From Position (RFP) player instruction and Be More Expressive (BME) team instruction is that with RFP, you're telling specific players that you want them to find/exploit pockets of space, and this works as part of your overall system.

With BME, however, you're telling ALL of your players that they can take matters into their own hands and more freely ignore other Team and Player Instructions, and play their own game based on the situations they are faced with. It affects how strictly your players stick to your instructions.

So for example, say you are chasing a game... desperate for a goal, and you have 2 central midfielders with the PPM to Play Short Simple Passes.

In that situation, it might be more effective to give each player a PI for More Direct Passing and/or Take More Risks because if you add Be More Expressive as a TI, these 2 players might revert more towards their preferred style of play dictated by their PPMs.

That's my interpretation, anyway.

 

16 hours ago, Snootch said:

Question related to this: I'm playing as Leverkusen employing a 4-3-3 Positive Gegenpress (mostly in line with the preset). There are times where the high defensive line looks vulnerable to balls in over the top and behind. However, dropping this line down negatively impacts our core philosophy of pressing high up the pitch. It would appear that in this case, the minor tweak that could solidify us would also adversely affect the game we want to play. Naturally we can't control everything; how do you strike a balance between reacting to trouble when it may take you away from your style? 

That's a call you have to make as a manager in terms of what's more important to you.

It's not a secret that high line, high press, etc. leaves you vulnerable to ball over the top / fast counter attacks if the opposition can beat your press.

If you are treating that as your core philosophy, then you need to look at how opposition teams are beating your press and maybe make adjustments for that. Doesn't mean it will always work, but it's a decision you make based on risk vs reward.

Edited by rockpie

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I still struggle with making good decision during the game.

Got two new clips from an away match which ended 3-3. I was leading 2-0 until they started the come back.

This is their first goal:

My initial thought here is that my left CB should be closer to their forward who ended up scoring. My tactic at that moment looked like this:

image.thumb.png.26efe474e9eec2cdbb7386d4ac4fcf02.png

So I added "Use tighter marking" to avoid more situations like this.
Their second goal came during an corner.

Then their third goal:


Here I actually don't know. Marking again?

When they scored this goal, I had changed to an more counter-ish tactic to try to see out the game and counter while they were throwing people forward.

image.thumb.png.3e14ac12b79431972c2b716e8e25915f.png
 

Was this just my game to lose (draw) or did I make bad decisions?
What would the better decisions here?

Thank you.

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12 hours ago, Continum said:

This is their first goal:

 

the way i see it i think it would be better to increase ur def line a bit to decrease the gap between defence and midfield because i saw a gap.so the def line will be more close to ur midfield and to opposition forwards.in fact u dont have players in dm position to naturally lower ur def line a bit and is a bit hard to defend better with ur cm position even i have dlp-sup and cm-def.also u could try to use ur cm to dm position to increase ur defence stability and starting lower this will increase space to your amc to operate better.for example u can use a volante to give u lateral movement in offence.thats my advice and we will wait @rockpie to help you better

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OP updated with Case 3 - an attacking adjustment made in a recent game, Cardiff vs Watford.

I also put these together for that scenario, but can't add any more images to the post so I'll add them here instead.

 

Advanced Forward position when running against Watford's defensive line.

As soon as Murphy touches the ball, Brewster is already pushing right up.

But Murphy has a man to beat before he can look at making a pass.

240811890_advancedforward.thumb.png.060af2f8f6c72edcd8254d1f0108807f.png

 

Deep Lying Forward position when running against Watford's defensive line:

Deeper starting position gives Murphy time to turn, beat a man (if there was one) and pick out the pass at the right moment.

brewster.thumb.png.a7ecab13e82f7cf929bf729c62d8bc5b.png

Edited by rockpie

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Awesome post. Defo helpfull. Its about understanding the game in its way. Cuz maybe you can understand football in general and how the game is played, but you need to know what to tweak and what it does,
so that it will change in game in that way what you wanted. And that is the tricky one, where i have a problem with. So this is a nice info. Thanks.

Maybe you could also check into my new topic, and give me some helpfull tips on my questions about how to improve tactic and create more opportunities in game. I would really appreciate that. 

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The thing about the deep striker is that it's just the sort of counter-intuitive thing that people need to bear in mind. 

When people are desperate for goals the temptation is to put on lots of strikers and to push right up. But dropping deeper can sometimes be more effective both in real life and this game.

I also find starting with a defensive formation against weaker teams can be more effective. They've less chance of nipping goals and you draw them out.

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