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ryandormer

Arsenal 433 - horrific results

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I really need some help with an arsenal save. I will undoubtedly get the sack soon, so I need to start thinking of my next save game and how to set up.

This is my current season:

image.thumb.png.23efce9dbb069c00cafab035d5481ebe.png

This is the worst season I have ever played, on any version of this game. Ever.

Bizarrely, my record against the big teams was good, for Arsenal. Drew away with City, Utd, and then thrashed Chelsea at Stamford Bridge. However, home results, and results generally against the smaller teams, have been horrific. As you can see, my team has scored a disgraceful 12 goals in 13 games.

My tactic is as follows:

image.thumb.png.baedefff04e3ed878eabd8c5aa091393.png

I try some other instructions every now and then. I try to add 'counter' but we never score. Strangely, I added 'hold shape' and we beat Chelsea 3-0. before a few 0-0 draws with teams towards the bottom of the table.

I have tried adding an attack duty to Aubameyang, but he is just as useless going forward, with the added problem that he also refuses to contribute defensively.

I really want to play 433 because I think the players coming through really suit that formation (strikers, wingers, central midfielders), and also it's my go-to formation.

Any help would be massively appreciated.

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So it seems your issue is against the lower ranked teams rather than the elite ones.  That would indicate an issue with breaking down compact defensive units who aren't overly interested in attacking you.  So just for those teams you may need to adjust.

I'm going to say it - I've never liked the Half Back role, either in real life or in FM.  If I could pick one role to get rid of - just one - that would be it.  If I use a player in the DM position, I want him further up the pitch than a HB when I'm in possession in order to provide a decent passing option for recycling the ball (if needed) and well positioned to break up unexpected counter attacks.  Horrible role imo, ugh (rant over :p).

Using identical roles on each flank can also cause issues.  That can be mitigated to some extent by using different types of players with differing attributes and Traits, but essentially you are attacking in the same manner thus potentially losing out on some variety.  And variety can be important especially against packed defences.  And (almost) everyone is on a support duty.  There still needs to be some penetration from somewhere.  The CM(A) is a good one to have, but if he's marked out of the game (or just having a mare) that limits your variety again.

And finally when using the Positive mentality in combination with a higher def line and LoE, you may be compressing already limited space in the opposition half even further.  You don't always needs to squish quite so much.  It can give your attacking players a bit more room to work with and those couple of extra yards could be a game changer.

You're not a million miles away, there's nothing fundamentally wrong, just a couple of tweaks :thup:.

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Thanks for the response--for some reason, I love the idea of the HB role, but I very rarely get it working! I think I'll give up on it.

What do you think you would change on the flanks? I want to try and get two inverted/inside players, as (again) that really suits the youth players (Nelson and Saka are the long term goal, assuming I'm not sacked after the next game).

Would you recommend leaving the lines 'standard' when using a positive mentality to try to free up some space?

Thanks again.

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Nothing terrible here. I might suggest attack duty for one if your wingers as a quick glance

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3 minutes ago, s0ni42 said:

Nothing terrible here. I might suggest attack duty for one if your wingers as a quick glance

I gave it a go, but it resulted is no improvement in attack, and a deterioration in defence on that flank.

I didn't think the tactic looked too bad, but the results are horrendous. 

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Have had quite similar issues with Bayern, I can’t offer anything other than you’re not alone. I actually think there may be an ME issue as I’m seeing this quite a lot, even from people who generally don’t complain about the game.

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To further what others say, you need to vary the point of attack here. Right now the only player who is really looking to get forward is the CM(A), and everyone in front of him is looking to build play rather than score. I love the DLF(S) CM(A) axis, I have used it for years. It is very weak against any side that puts 2 DMCs on the field, or who generally have a deep, packed defense. That is because it relies on the movement of your DLF back to disrupt the CBs and allow space for the CM(A) to run in to. So a bit of variety is needed here.

One thing to do is have an attack duty in your front 3. I would have it on the opposite side to the CM(A). If the DLF manages to create space with his movement, you are then putting two players into that space. This is always harder to defend, so could lead to more chances. It is still a little one dimensional though.

I agree that a HB does not make sense in all cases here. If you are facing a side who is not posing a significant threat on the break (playing only 1 up front, for instance), a HB is overkill. You will be defending 3v1, and that is a player you could use in the transition and attacking phase. When I have a team sitting team, I will use a support role for the DMC (DM(S) for example). I can then use him as a pivot to switch play around, and an option to receive a pass who is almost always open. If the AI want to close him down, they have to come out to do so, and that will also create space. Against sides that are actually trying to press the midfield a bit, I use a DLP(D) in midfield for the same reason. Draw the defense on to them. This is a little risky, as I am presenting a chance to lose the ball with the majority of my team on the wrong side of the ball, but you have to take risks to break down stubborn sides.

You also lack width in the final third. I guess your WBs get forward occasionally (depending on their PPMs) but a WB(S) is typically a deeper lying wide option. This means FBs can often sell out on defending the IFs. I would use at least one attack duty there. In my case, I use a W(S) and a FB(A) on the same side, in order to create an overload. But a FB(A) with a IF(s) will do similar things. It will force the AI to move outwards to deal with the FB and so create central space. Also with a player like Auba on the flank, with such good striker attributes, he could be deadly from crosses towards the far post. Since the defense will tend to drift towards the overloaded flank, this will see him in space - at least isolated against his FB. He is good enough to take advantage of such a 1v1, since he is a mismatch for most FBs.

There are other things you can do against defensive sides too. For example, if there are 2 DMCs, the DLF/CM(A) strategy will not be that good, because defenders can hand off the DLF to the DMCs and not lose shape. In this case, I will tend to use a MEZ(A) instead, as he moves into half spaces instead of running at the brick wall in the middle. You can also then try an attacking role for the striker. Something probing the other side of the defenders. Overload one side of the pitch to create space centrally and on the other flank.

Another potential problem is you do not let the AI get out all that much, it seems (at least that is your intention from the instructions with the high lines and the press). This can be problematic to break down a side, because they never are really able to get out of their defensive shapes. It can sometimes be useful to relax the press a little and invite the AI on to you. Let them come out and attack a little bit. Then hit them with a press lower down the pitch. This can create some good chances to counter, and is sometimes a much better option than a pure high counter press against defensive sides.

A final thought on defensive sides is that being slow and patient is not always the best strategy. Too slow means you can keep the ball, but any openings you create can be closed before you use them. The same goes for shorter passing. I would not use this all the time. Sometimes, you will want to be fast and direct. Or move the ball around quickly in general. This will leave the defense constantly reacting, and that will lead to mistakes.

I guess the conclusion would be that against smaller sides there is no assured strategy you can use by default to win. It depends what the opposition is doing, and you need to adapt a little bit to it. Especially in the current ME, I have found, although the same was true in previous iterations. Once you get a goal, you can go back to being more conservative (or push for a second to kill the game).

I would guess against similar teams (or larger) you have less issues. I mean, to the point where you would expect, because losing against a similar team (or better side) is not really something to dwell on. It happens. I got absolutely battered by Liverpool in my first save as Manchester United. They just played better, and my players did not take their chances. If you want to counter against sides attacking you, have a DLF(A) and at least one other attack duty up front (perhaps all 3 on attack). Tick counters, do not play from defense, and man mark fullbacks with your wide players. Also play the fastest players you have. Whenever you win the ball, you have 3 attacking players countering with pace and it can be very deadly.

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Thanks for the advice, really appreciate it.

I was predictably sacked after a 0-0 home draw with Southampton, so I've started a new save. The first piece of advice I'm taking is ditching the half back. I desperately want that role to work, but based on what I'm seeing, and what you guys say, it just takes away a player from midfield. Given that I want to dominate games and have plenty of players in good positions to receive passes, removing a midfielder seems, logically, quite silly. DMs it is (unless I really need to defend, then DMd).

I'll try with Aubameyang on IFa. It really should work, but I've tried so many times and he's marked out of the game in attack, and useless in transition, resulting in my CM and FB on the left pressing players who the IF should be covering. Maybe I should give it a go for a sustained period and see what happens.

I haven't got the game to hand now, but how about a set up like this:

DLFs

IFa                                 IWs

DLPs       CMa

DMs*

FBs     CBd     CBd     FBa

(*DMs may become DMd against better sides, as the right flank is, on paper, very vulnerable).

Mentality: Positive

TI: Shorter pass, play out of defence, counter press, higher line

Subject to change based on what I see in the game.

What do you think?

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1 hour ago, ryandormer said:

What do you think?

Whenever I want a DLP to be a bit more adventurous looking for runs of players like Auba, I do like to set that role with PIs to more direct passing and/or take more risks.

You should see more attempts to play more aggressive passes from midfield that way, although you have to accept the inevitable misplaced and sometimes just bad attempts as well.

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13 hours ago, ryandormer said:

have tried adding an attack duty to Aubameyang, but he is just as useless going forward, with the added problem that he also refuses to contribute defensively.

You're onto something here. When you put widemen on attack duty the space between them and your fullback increases. You need to mitigate that attacking and defensively. 

Attacking: you want your fullback to be close enough and forward thinking enough to attract opposition players and play through balls into your attacking wide man.

Defensively: you want the full back to control the distance between him and Aubameyang so the opposition doesn't get a lot of space in that area.

Essentially, you want a wingback behind an attacking wideman. I would add this to your formation. Another issue I can see is the CMA and Inverted winger support running into each other i.e if the cma gets forward he cuts out space for the inverted winger to cut into, if the inverted winger cuts inside early with the ball, he cuts out the space for the cma to run into. Doesn't make sense to me. So to start with something like:

                                                DLFs

                           IFa                                     IWs

                                      CMa          DLPs

                                                DMs/d

                            WBs     CB          CB         FBa

Could even try a CWBs on the left side given the quality of players you got. You might also want to look close at the midfield---there's a lot of predictable movement in there. Maybe BBM for CMa? Perhaps a F9 instead of a DLFs? Roaming playmaker for DLPs? There's a lot of options to try, but I think you were onto a good thing in the first tactic---just needs a few minor tweaks to get it working. Also, DLPs and DLFs isn't the best choice for counter-pressing. imo.                                           

Edited by Guerin

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2 hours ago, ryandormer said:

Thanks for the advice, really appreciate it.

I was predictably sacked after a 0-0 home draw with Southampton, so I've started a new save. The first piece of advice I'm taking is ditching the half back. I desperately want that role to work, but based on what I'm seeing, and what you guys say, it just takes away a player from midfield. Given that I want to dominate games and have plenty of players in good positions to receive passes, removing a midfielder seems, logically, quite silly. DMs it is (unless I really need to defend, then DMd).

I'll try with Aubameyang on IFa. It really should work, but I've tried so many times and he's marked out of the game in attack, and useless in transition, resulting in my CM and FB on the left pressing players who the IF should be covering. Maybe I should give it a go for a sustained period and see what happens.

I haven't got the game to hand now, but how about a set up like this:

DLFs

IFa                                 IWs

DLPs       CMa

DMs*

FBs     CBd     CBd     FBa

(*DMs may become DMd against better sides, as the right flank is, on paper, very vulnerable).

Mentality: Positive

TI: Shorter pass, play out of defence, counter press, higher line

Subject to change based on what I see in the game.

What do you think?

I would like to offer some of MHO.

First of all, 433 wide is not a strong tactic in this ME, so you will need a strong team like  Barca, R. Madrid, City, etc. to pull it off. Don't expect a world beater from current Arsenal squad.

Now to your tactic, there is a few talking point here. First there should be BPD if you want to play from defence. Second, a generic DM will be played as the player's will, should be a DLP defend or support for your build up. If you want to has a CM to be DLP instead, a BWM support in the DM slot is a good option.

Going forward is really troublesome with a lone DLF support, and in my opinion that role doesn't fit Lacazette. He should be a PF attack. The roles for Aubameyang and Pepe are good, but to pull it off you will really need world class wing backs and CMs who can bring the ball to them consistently. My only tip here is to make sure the IF attack man mark the FB on his side in big games to improve the defence. For current Arsenal squad you can try the Man city approach with Ceballos as a Mezzala behind the IF. The other CM can be a box to box or CM attack depending on games.

Good luck with your new save. 

Edited by longruoi1

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3 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

One thing to do is have an attack duty in your front 3. I would have it on the opposite side to the CM(A).

This is interesting. I always set it up the other way round. So that when the supporting inside fwd cuts in he has loads of passing options. i.e to the dropping deep striker, to the onrushing cma, short and back to the DLPs, or a cross field killer ball to the opposite flank. Might give this a go in my next save.

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2 hours ago, Guerin said:

This is interesting. I always set it up the other way round. So that when the supporting inside fwd cuts in he has loads of passing options. i.e to the dropping deep striker, to the onrushing cma, short and back to the DLPs, or a cross field killer ball to the opposite flank. Might give this a go in my next save.

My idea here is to have a player on either side of the DLF rushing into the box. This forces the defenders to choose which gaps to close, and hopefully leaves someone open. The other way can work too, as you overload the gap rather than spread the attack.

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On 25/11/2019 at 22:48, ryandormer said:

image.thumb.png.baedefff04e3ed878eabd8c5aa091393.png

If I remember correctly, you recently wrote (in another thread) that you were very pleased with this particular tactic even though it was one-dimensional. So what actually happened? What went wrong suddenly? When exactly did it stop working and how? I mean, if you watched the matches, you should have spotted the point at which the slump began.

Honestly, I don't like the tactic, but it does not necessarily mean it's bad. Just not my (tactical) cup of tea. But given that it did work for you initially, I guess it can be considered a decent one at the very least. In other words, the potential changes need not be too big.

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14 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

If I remember correctly, you recently wrote (in another thread) that you were very pleased with this particular tactic even though it was one-dimensional. So what actually happened? What went wrong suddenly? When exactly did it stop working and how? I mean, if you watched the matches, you should have spotted the point at which the slump began.

Honestly, I don't like the tactic, but it does not necessarily mean it's bad. Just not my (tactical) cup of tea. But given that it did work for you initially, I guess it can be considered a decent one at the very least. In other words, the potential changes need not be too big.

I honestly can't put my finger on where it all went wrong, but it suddenly stopped working without having made many (if any) changes.

I was, unsurprisingly, sacked in that save. I've started another one, and again the team has totally collapsed. Started well-ish. However, here are my recent results:

image.thumb.png.df519b4861de476dd5f8372480fbdd1c.png

The tactic in this save is now:

image.thumb.png.9becf2fb906ed57484e4a0353487416d.png

I concede a lot of goals at set pieces and a lot on the counter. The seemingly obvious answer to the counter problem is to drop the line a bit. However, even with a standard line, I concede so many goals with the opposition getting behind the defensive line. And my team cannot break down defences to save their lives.

image.thumb.png.f4feead7eef6ef93837e623800e6baf5.png

13 goals in 12 games is absolutely inexcusable.

On 26/11/2019 at 10:50, longruoi1 said:

I would like to offer some of MHO.

First of all, 433 wide is not a strong tactic in this ME, so you will need a strong team like  Barca, R. Madrid, City, etc. to pull it off. Don't expect a world beater from current Arsenal squad.

Now to your tactic, there is a few talking point here. First there should be BPD if you want to play from defence. Second, a generic DM will be played as the player's will, should be a DLP defend or support for your build up. If you want to has a CM to be DLP instead, a BWM support in the DM slot is a good option.

Going forward is really troublesome with a lone DLF support, and in my opinion that role doesn't fit Lacazette. He should be a PF attack. The roles for Aubameyang and Pepe are good, but to pull it off you will really need world class wing backs and CMs who can bring the ball to them consistently. My only tip here is to make sure the IF attack man mark the FB on his side in big games to improve the defence. For current Arsenal squad you can try the Man city approach with Ceballos as a Mezzala behind the IF. The other CM can be a box to box or CM attack depending on games.

Good luck with your new save. 

Sorry, I completely missed your post. There are some good suggestions there, perhaps I should abandon the above tactic and give that a go. Would you have the mezzala on support behind the IF on attack?

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Right--sacked again! After a 5-1 humiliation at Bournemouth.

I'm going to have one final try at a 4-3-3. I'm going to try to use the 'control possession' preset, and make adjustments here and there:

image.thumb.png.71d3190524958190b2a219d2a818e352.png

I might also follow @longruoi1 advice and change the APs for a MEZs, see how that works.

Thanks for all the suggestions, guys.

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2 hours ago, ryandormer said:

image.thumb.png.9becf2fb906ed57484e4a0353487416d.png

 

2 hours ago, ryandormer said:

I concede a lot of goals at set pieces and a lot on the counter. The seemingly obvious answer to the counter problem is to drop the line a bit. However, even with a standard line, I concede so many goals with the opposition getting behind the defensive line. And my team cannot break down defences to save their lives

Well, conventional wisdom suggests that it probably has to do with the much higher DL. But as you say that it happens even when you drop the line to standard, then the next most probable reason is a lack of defensive cover on the right, since you play both the RB and RCM on attack duties. Counter-press could also contribute to your defensive vulnerability to some extent.

Btw, when you drop the defensive line to standard, do you also drop the LOE or you let it remain on much higher? 

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23 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Btw, when you drop the defensive line to standard, do you also drop the LOE or you let it remain on much higher? 

I always keep them the same, so when I drop the line, I drop the LOE. All that happens is I give up more possession and still fail to defend counters.

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25 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Well, conventional wisdom suggests that it probably has to do with the much higher DL. But as you say that it happens even when you drop the line to standard, then the next most probable reason is a lack of defensive cover on the right, since you play both the RB and RCM on attack duties. Counter-press could also contribute to your defensive vulnerability to some extent.

Sorry to double post again, but would you recommend perhaps having the IFa and CMa on the same side? With the FBs behind. It looks like that would make more logical sense defensively, but I worry that the IFa and CMa would get in each other's way.

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I play with arsenal in my save and play a 4-2-3-1 formation. The two are CMS one is ball winner and other is b2b. Then in the middle of the 3 is the playmaker (ozil) wingers are inside forwards both with attack, but it's not totally reliable, first 8 games Pepe and auba were scoring for fun but it didn't keep up that way. Laca is th striker but he's been poor and had injuries, he will be out the door at the end of the season

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11 minutes ago, ryandormer said:

Sorry to double post again, but would you recommend perhaps having the IFa and CMa on the same side? With the FBs behind. It looks like that would make more logical sense defensively, but I worry that the IFa and CMa would get in each other's way

That would definitely be more solid/less risky defensively. However, I personally would prefer pairing a CM on attack with a standard winger on attack (as opposed to IF or IW). The fullback's potential roles would include FBsu, WBde, IWBde (or even IWBsu).

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1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

That would definitely be more solid/less risky defensively. However, I personally would prefer pairing a CM on attack with a standard winger on attack (as opposed to IF or IW). The fullback's potential roles would include FBsu, WBde, IWBde (or even IWBsu).

Thanks, really appreciate the advice, again. A winger would probably give us more width, but with the players I have it'll have to be IFa and see how it works.

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5 minutes ago, ryandormer said:

A winger would probably give us more width, but with the players I have it'll have to be IFa and see how it works

Why? Because their stronger foot is opposite to their flank (e.g. left-footed AMR or vice versa), or for some other reason?

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20 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Why? Because their stronger foot is opposite to their flank (e.g. left-footed AMR or vice versa), or for some other reason?

My best players (in theory) are Lacazette (striker), Aubameyang (AML) and Pepe (AMR). I can't see Aubameyang being a good left winger. Pepe probably would, but then where would I put Aubameyang?

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1 hour ago, ryandormer said:

Thanks, really appreciate the advice, again. A winger would probably give us more width, but with the players I have it'll have to be IFa and see how it works.

If you have a traditional winger role but with a 'wrong' footed player, they'll just cut onto their stronger foot for the cross. A bit like Ashley Young used to do. It can be a different way of utilising the winger role, he'll still go wide and down the flanks at times. I used to have Draxler (Left footed) on the right wing in an old save and he was great in that general role.

 

I find the winger role matches well with a mezzala on attack, they make a natural overload and provide each other support, more-so if you have an aggressive fullback behind them - though you could go defensive WB/D will provide cover behind them whilst providing an 'out' ball for recycling alongside the DM. Don't underestimate the WB/D, they can get pretty far ahead if the opportunity arises, but WB/D might help cut out the long ball over the top issue?

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50 minutes ago, ryandormer said:

My best players (in theory) are Lacazette (striker), Aubameyang (AML) and Pepe (AMR). I can't see Aubameyang being a good left winger. Pepe probably would, but then where would I put Aubameyang?

I am a bit confused now. Didn't we talk about the right wing (AMR), not left? Because the idea was to have FBsu, CMat and Wat on the right side of the pitch. And Auby as an attack-duty winger in AMR would make sense IMHO. Of course, there are other possible combinations, so this is just an idea to think about.

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12 hours ago, isignedupfornorealreason said:

If you have a traditional winger role but with a 'wrong' footed player, they'll just cut onto their stronger foot for the cross. A bit like Ashley Young used to do. It can be a different way of utilising the winger role, he'll still go wide and down the flanks at times. I used to have Draxler (Left footed) on the right wing in an old save and he was great in that general role.

It might be worth a go, but I thought that Draxler was considered 'very strong' on both feet? Might have helped. Still, worth thinking about.

 

12 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

I am a bit confused now. Didn't we talk about the right wing (AMR), not left? Because the idea was to have FBsu, CMat and Wat on the right side of the pitch. And Auby as an attack-duty winger in AMR would make sense IMHO. Of course, there are other possible combinations, so this is just an idea to think about.

No, I took the advice to move the CMa to the same side as the IFa (left wing). So I've currently got FBs, CMa and IFa on the left side, FBa, APs and IWs on the right. A simple DMd in front of the back line. It started well, but hit a slump again! Although the team does look a lot more balanced. The bad results tend to have been the result of mistakes rather than general rubbish play (aside from a mauling away at City).

I have to say, it never crossed my mind to use Aubameyang as a Wa. I thought of him as a natural striker, with poor crossing, so the idea of keeping him on the flanks didn't seem sensible. Do you find attacking wingers getting into the box, despite their instruction to stay wide? Thinking about it, Aubameyang has the trait 'cut inside from both wings,' so that could work.

12 hours ago, isignedupfornorealreason said:

I find the winger role matches well with a mezzala on attack, they make a natural overload and provide each other support, more-so if you have an aggressive fullback behind them - though you could go defensive WB/D will provide cover behind them whilst providing an 'out' ball for recycling alongside the DM. Don't underestimate the WB/D, they can get pretty far ahead if the opportunity arises, but WB/D might help cut out the long ball over the top issue?

It's something I think I'll try if I'm struggling in a match, thanks for the help.

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Just to add to the discussion on the half-back role. The only time I tend to use it is if I'm playing against a team with two upfront and I want to build from the back. The half-back then drops in between your centre-backs which allows you to outnumber the opposition when playing out from the goalkeeper or defenders. I've found this works quite well as it makes it really hard for the opposition's strikers to press you. You end up playing 4 vs 2, if you include your goalkeeper, which often gives you a way out to progress up the pitch.

When a team plays one striker against me, I agree with @herne79 - he's too deep, not really involved and you end up needing him as an extra man higher up the pitch.

Edited by TheInvisibleMan

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vor 17 Stunden schrieb ryandormer:

Thanks, really appreciate the advice, again. A winger would probably give us more width, but with the players I have it'll have to be IFa and see how it works.

Look at Pepés PPMs, he's basically a "wrong footed winger". Should work just fine in AMR as winger.

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vor 2 Minuten schrieb Time_Consumer:

Look at Pepés PPMs, he's basically a "wrong footed winger". Should work just fine in AMR as winger.

Citing myself here, Arsenal has a very disbalanced squad though. If I used Pepe as an attacking winger, what can I do with Bellerin? You basically want him attacking as well. Pepes scoring abilities are a bit wasted with a support duty I feel. But I guess you have to compromise somewhere. 

Also, what are you gonna do with Saka? This squad is not an easy task. 

Edited by Time_Consumer

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1 hour ago, Time_Consumer said:

Citing myself here, Arsenal has a very disbalanced squad though. If I used Pepe as an attacking winger, what can I do with Bellerin? You basically want him attacking as well. Pepes scoring abilities are a bit wasted with a support duty I feel. But I guess you have to compromise somewhere. 

Also, what are you gonna do with Saka? This squad is not an easy task. 

Totally agree with you, it isn't easy to put that squad together in an overly coherent way.

Pepe's PPMs are a nightmare, and I'm not sure they're accurate. I haven't seen him bomb down the right flank often for Arsenal, he always seems to cut inside. I haven't been able to get him to perform consistently. I'm trying to get him to un-learn the winger trait, in the hope that he becomes a good IWs or IFs. If so, then Bellerin on attack will work. I really want this to work, because Saka should grow into this role really well in a few years (if I can make it past December without getting sacked).

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vor 12 Minuten schrieb ryandormer:

Totally agree with you, it isn't easy to put that squad together in an overly coherent way.

Pepe's PPMs are a nightmare, and I'm not sure they're accurate. I haven't seen him bomb down the right flank often for Arsenal, he always seems to cut inside. I haven't been able to get him to perform consistently. I'm trying to get him to un-learn the winger trait, in the hope that he becomes a good IWs or IFs. If so, then Bellerin on attack will work. I really want this to work, because Saka should grow into this role really well in a few years (if I can make it past December without getting sacked).

Pepe is not creative and sucks at crossing, so - apart from this on ppm - he's a born IFa. But do you really wanna have Auba and Pepe in the same role? For years on here I read it's a dumb idea, but actually I find it working quite alright. I had some decent success with two attacking IFs, a CFs up front and two supporting mezzalas in front of a DLPd; wingbacks on support. I have a soft spot for symmetric formations, so went with it. 

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12 minutes ago, Time_Consumer said:

Pepe is not creative and sucks at crossing, so - apart from this on ppm - he's a born IFa. But do you really wanna have Auba and Pepe in the same role? For years on here I read it's a dumb idea, but actually I find it working quite alright. I had some decent success with two attacking IFs, a CFs up front and two supporting mezzalas in front of a DLPd; wingbacks on support. I have a soft spot for symmetric formations, so went with it. 

I'm trying to get this working:

image.thumb.png.b937de72f862127cc5bcdc9a3d01e413.png

Aubameyang as IFa and Pepe as IWs. I've also taken advice on here to try to have the IFa and CMa on the same flank. Results have been ok--better than my last two saves! But my main problems remain the same. I just can't see where my goals are coming from a lot of the time. Here are the stats after ten league games:

image.thumb.png.b9af5d78390bb8568913bf40e1277276.png

Fifth in the league, which isn't shocking. But only the tenth highest scorers in the league, and my highest scorers (six of them) have two goals each.

I've tried symmetrical formations but I've never had success with them.

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6 hours ago, ryandormer said:

Do you find attacking wingers getting into the box, despite their instruction to stay wide?

Absolutely! Especially when played in AMR/L positions. Even a winger on support duty can sometimes get into the box to receive that final pass (or cross) and try to score (or play a cutback pass), let alone an attack-duty one. That's exactly the reason why I believe Auby could be a good choice as a right winger on attack, especially as he has the "Cut inside" trait, which brings another dimension to his play. Bear also in mind that the tendency of a winger (role) to come more into central areas (such as getting into the box) will be somewhat also affected with the passing TI and formation. Shorter passing should encourage him to be a bit more central, as well as a formation without an AMC (e.g. 4141dm wide, which you are already using). And of course, his behavior will - as always - be affected by how those around him are set up.

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5 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Absolutely! Especially when played in AMR/L positions. Even a winger on support duty can sometimes get into the box to receive that final pass (or cross) and try to score (or play a cutback pass), let alone an attack-duty one. That's exactly the reason why I believe Auby could be a good choice as a right winger on attack, especially as he has the "Cut inside" trait, which brings another dimension to his play. Bear also in mind that the tendency of a winger (role) to come more into central areas (such as getting into the box) will be somewhat also affected with the passing TI and formation. Shorter passing should encourage him to be a bit more central, as well as a formation without an AMC (e.g. 4141dm wide, which you are already using). And of course, his behavior will - as always - be affected by how those around him are set up.

On FM wingers tend to be very good at popping up on the back post and I absolutely love a winger role combined with the 'cuts inside' trait for a bit of unpredictability [and common sense dribbles depending on how the opposition defender positions himself]

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Some great points on here. For me what I normally do it’s have the right sided inside forward “sit narrower” and have an attacking left full on support. This allows the inside forward to almost play as a wide fw in between the oppositions right full and right center half. It’s causes loads of problems.

 

also I would suggest having a separate formation for playing the weaker sides without that deep holding midfielder. 

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On 28/11/2019 at 12:06, Time_Consumer said:

, Arsenal has a very disbalanced squad though. If I used Pepe as an attacking winger, what can I do with Bellerin? You basically want him attacking as well. Pepes scoring abilities are a bit wasted with a support duty I feel. But I guess you have to compromise somewhere. 

Also, what are you gonna do with Saka? This squad is not an easy task. 

4-4-2 is your friend. 

 

Edited by Guerin

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@ryandormer Still pretty early, but early signs are good for the Arsenal tactic I'm working on.

Important note is that the screenshot of the tactic here shows a Positive mentality, but I actually use a Standard mentality more often.

 

tactic.thumb.png.ead6201eaf6de8e9ffdec7533b77229d.png

 

Playing some nice stuff with it as you can see here:

 

 

And got majority of the players performing well. Particularly Lacazette as a lone striker in the DLF (s) role with 11 goals from 11 games.

Unfortuantely for me Auba got injured early and has been out for a few weeks, just returning to fitness now.

 

1888818341_playerstats.thumb.png.70ae2175f751b2b47ae29831c7b89057.png

 

Forgot to take screenshots of player instructions, results and some other nice stats but might put a full post together soon explaining my approach to in-match decisions, so will include them there.

Edited by rockpie

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On 28/11/2019 at 15:36, ryandormer said:

I'm trying to get this working:

image.thumb.png.b937de72f862127cc5bcdc9a3d01e413.png

With lower tempo, shorter passing, WBIB and play out of defence you are on the extreme side of keeping possession. Who in your team is supposed to add a bit of directness? This looks like something I might play when I am 3-0 up and just want to play the game out. It is not something I would use as a default. This is part of the reason you do not score so much. You are spending most of the time not trying to score. 

I'd also have reservations about playing Ceballos and Ozil together in a central midfield, even with a holding player behind them. Neither can defend worth a damn (their defensive states are very poor). It could make your midfield pretty light weight and easily dominated. I'd play Gendouzi, he is a really nice well rounded midfielder. Can pass. Can defend. Has good vision. I love players that can do a bit of everything. I'd be selling Ozil, he does not fit this tactic really. Or playing him on the flank as a playmaker with a mezalla and wing back on his side. 

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On 28/11/2019 at 16:36, ryandormer said:

I'm trying to get this working:

image.thumb.png.b937de72f862127cc5bcdc9a3d01e413.png

Aubameyang as IFa and Pepe as IWs. I've also taken advice on here to try to have the IFa and CMa on the same flank. Results have been ok--better than my last two saves! But my main problems remain the same. I just can't see where my goals are coming from a lot of the time. Here are the stats after ten league games:

image.thumb.png.b9af5d78390bb8568913bf40e1277276.png

Fifth in the league, which isn't shocking. But only the tenth highest scorers in the league, and my highest scorers (six of them) have two goals each.

I've tried symmetrical formations but I've never had success with them.

Well i had similar problems in FM20, i took over Monaco in Beta and tried 433 with similar TI's and it was nightmare. I dominated possession but the football we played was awful side passing no forward thinking and all the time balls over the top of my defence. When the full game went out i started again with Monaco and had the same issues. I was trying to emulate pep's football with IWBs, wingers playing very wide and all these fancy things pep does with Man City...and at September during the break for international games i sat down and said "come on man, you play FM since 1998 there has to be a solution". 

B2B which is Back To Basics was the solution. 433 from a clean slate template and build from scratch

I started with positive metality, kept the play out of defence, shorter passing and added be more expressive, the other two Ti's were counter counter press. The front five press more and that's it nothing more. I 've gone 31 games undefeated smashing every team we played even PSG i demolished them 4-0. Top of the league and in the two cup finals (yet to play). The most important wasn't the results but the football we played at times was beautiful generally what i wanted to see from the team. So now i have a basic formation that i know it works and can add step by step some things to refine it even further.

This is the tactic

B2B.thumb.jpg.5c7fd305d40242895471bdaede339d08.jpg

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11 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

With lower tempo, shorter passing, WBIB and play out of defence you are on the extreme side of keeping possession. Who in your team is supposed to add a bit of directness? This looks like something I might play when I am 3-0 up and just want to play the game out. It is not something I would use as a default. This is part of the reason you do not score so much. You are spending most of the time not trying to score. 

I'd also have reservations about playing Ceballos and Ozil together in a central midfield, even with a holding player behind them. Neither can defend worth a damn (their defensive states are very poor). It could make your midfield pretty light weight and easily dominated. I'd play Gendouzi, he is a really nice well rounded midfielder. Can pass. Can defend. Has good vision. I love players that can do a bit of everything. I'd be selling Ozil, he does not fit this tactic really. Or playing him on the flank as a playmaker with a mezalla and wing back on his side. 

I've modified the tactic slightly and I think it's working a lot better, early days though. Removed lower tempo and work ball into box. Added be more expressive (I think this has been the major improvement). I normally play Guendouzi as the advanced playmaker. He seems more suited to deep lying, but I want to train him to get forward more, as you say, he is a good all-rounder.

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4 hours ago, fmjeros said:

Well i had similar problems in FM20, i took over Monaco in Beta and tried 433 with similar TI's and it was nightmare. I dominated possession but the football we played was awful side passing no forward thinking and all the time balls over the top of my defence. When the full game went out i started again with Monaco and had the same issues. I was trying to emulate pep's football with IWBs, wingers playing very wide and all these fancy things pep does with Man City...and at September during the break for international games i sat down and said "come on man, you play FM since 1998 there has to be a solution". 

B2B which is Back To Basics was the solution. 433 from a clean slate template and build from scratch

I started with positive metality, kept the play out of defence, shorter passing and added be more expressive, the other two Ti's were counter counter press. The front five press more and that's it nothing more. I 've gone 31 games undefeated smashing every team we played even PSG i demolished them 4-0. Top of the league and in the two cup finals (yet to play). The most important wasn't the results but the football we played at times was beautiful generally what i wanted to see from the team. So now i have a basic formation that i know it works and can add step by step some things to refine it even further.

This is the tactic

B2B.thumb.jpg.5c7fd305d40242895471bdaede339d08.jpg

Those are almost the exact TIs I now use, though I dont have counter as a default--i add it if the other team starts0 attacking more urgently. I also still have the higher line. But I think the 'be more expressive' is critical--the forward movement in particular, but movement generally is so much better. I've also found that I can now put both wingers on support (which I prefer for defensive support, plus I find it allows much more freedom assigning midfield roles) and they'll still offer a serious goal threat due to their freedom to roam.

Thanks again, everyone, for the input, this thread has been massively helpful.

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On 28/11/2019 at 15:36, ryandormer said:

I'm trying to get this working:

image.thumb.png.b937de72f862127cc5bcdc9a3d01e413.png

 

I think that Ozil used in this way is practically useless, if not harmful, he could play well basically only one role and it's and not expected in your tactic. Also i will never put Auba wide on the left, this is a waste of potential.

Get rid of the CM and put in a playmaker or an attacking midfielder to use Ozil in his proper role

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On 01/12/2019 at 12:47, ryandormer said:

Removed lower tempo and work ball into box. Added be more expressive (I think this has been the major improvement).

These are all good choices if you have to break down defensive sides.

On 01/12/2019 at 12:47, ryandormer said:

I normally play Guendouzi as the advanced playmaker. He seems more suited to deep lying, but I want to train him to get forward more, as you say, he is a good all-rounder.

I love some good all round defenders. If you can get a player with good all round traits and PPMs like "gets into opposition area" or "runs with ball through centre" they can be absolutely deadly in the CM(A) or MEZ(A) roles. For example Gedson at Benfica is extremely effective in this role because of these PPMs.

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39 minutes ago, sporadicsmiles said:

These are all good choices if you have to break down defensive sides.

I love some good all round defenders. If you can get a player with good all round traits and PPMs like "gets into opposition area" or "runs with ball through centre" they can be absolutely deadly in the CM(A) or MEZ(A) roles. For example Gedson at Benfica is extremely effective in this role because of these PPMs.

I had Gedson in my FM19 save as a mezzala on attack. Probably no coincidence that it was my most successful tactic ever!

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So I've had mixed luck with the 4-3-3 with Arsenal.

I am 4th in the league and scoring goals but not getting as many as I should do from Laca.

Aubamayang has 20 goals from an IF-A position, Pépé has 11 goals and has been out for the best part of 3 months. I played Lacazette as a DLF-A. What I wanted to do was emulate the Liverpool front three in the hope he'd drop deep link play before bursting into the box.

My starting midfield 3 were Torreira who has played admirably as a DLP-D, Guendouzi as a BBM and Ceballos as a Mezzala-A. They seemed to work well and both Guendouzi and Ceballos were getting goals. I lost Ceballos for 2months so I played Özil as a AP-A in that 3 and his performances have been okay and weighed in with goals and assists.

The back four I had both FBs on FB-Att then switched it to WB-Att and now WB-S. The CBs are both BPDs. Originally I had one as a stopper and the other on cover. I've now moved both to cover. Leno is SK-S.

 

I've had some brilliant results beating City away 3-0, Utd 3-1 away and 3-0 home. I've also had some terrible results losing to Wolves homes and away, Norwich away, Chelsea away 4-1.

I don't know if it's a match engine issue but I score very one on ones which is annoying me. 

What I want is defensive solidity I am 5/6 in terms of goals conceded. I still want to have the goal threat from the front three with the central striker chipping in more.

If my midfield can chip in with goals that would be nice though Ceballos had 5, Özil has had 4. Guendouzi has weighed in with a few too.

So at I want a quick pressing style of play ala Liverpool.

At home I play with an attacking mentality against most teams or I'll knock it down a notch to positive against better teams.

Away from home I played a cautious mentality. So on the link below, I have the set up for my formations home and away.

 

 

 

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So I've had mixed luck with the 4-3-3 with Arsenal.

I am 4th in the league and scoring goals but not getting as many as I should do from Laca.

Aubamayang has 20 goals from an IF-A position, Pépé has 11 goals and has been out for the best part of 3 months. I played Lacazette as a DLF-A. What I wanted to do was emulate the Liverpool front three in the hope he'd drop deep link play before bursting into the box.

1967693569_Screenshot2019-12-31at17_34_47.thumb.png.6a0998299c1754d7efe94a0a5891bf81.png1551667842_Screenshot2019-12-31at17_35_12.thumb.png.7a1d592f592b21a47b8a263e31268327.png

 

My starting midfield 3 were Torreira who has played admirably as a DLP-D, Guendouzi as a BBM and Ceballos as a Mezzala-A. They seemed to work well and both Guendouzi and Ceballos were getting goals. I lost Ceballos for 2months so I played Özil as a AP-A in that 3 and his performances have been okay and weighed in with goals and assists.

The back four I had both FBs on FB-Att then switched it to WB-Att and now WB-S. The CBs are both BPDs. Originally I had one as a stopper and the other on cover. I've now moved both to cover. Leno is SK-S.

I've had some brilliant results beating City away 3-0, Utd 3-1 away and 3-0 home. I've also had some terrible results losing to Wolves homes and away, Norwich away, Chelsea away 4-1.

I don't know if it's a match engine issue but I score very one on ones which is annoying me. 

What I want is defensive solidity I am 5/6 in terms of goals conceded. I still want to have the goal threat from the front three with the central striker chipping in more.

If my midfield can chip in with goals that would be nice though Ceballos had 5, Özil has had 4. Guendouzi has weighed in with a few too.

So at I want a quick pressing style of play ala Liverpool.

At home I play with an attacking mentality against most teams or I'll knock it down a notch to positive against better teams.

Away from home I played a cautious mentality. Any ideas to make this a bit more consistant would be greatly appreciated.

 

Home

139288376_Screenshot2019-12-31at17_30_37.thumb.png.3e5ff976ba462d42dafa2a83b1256686.png2140464308_Screenshot2019-12-31at17_30_10.thumb.png.fc83388e595081bb5a45ef1177392857.png

1962952096_Screenshot2019-12-31at17_29_58.thumb.png.e2f7a61855711a340be76d9d3839b0b4.png1635146331_Screenshot2019-12-31at17_29_47.thumb.png.89ec634573402f72d8df0b3779e3a270.png

 

 

 

Away

34575179_Screenshot2019-12-31at17_30_52.thumb.png.0fcb081e38f8cbea027cb7c3eab40a7a.png936748710_Screenshot2019-12-31at17_28_50.thumb.png.db2f011a3a69402ae91a0ac42a252b3f.png

 

2092719920_Screenshot2019-12-31at17_29_01.thumb.png.df09ad36c971dde73b063b93df2203ee.png620806995_Screenshot2019-12-31at17_44_04.thumb.png.af654359f1dd327ad1f4691d36a40988.png

 

 

 

Screenshot 2019-12-30 at 10.27.28.png

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2 hours ago, The Solman said:

Any ideas to make this a bit more consistant would be greatly appreciated.

You shouldn't really need to change so dramatically between home and away.  Just changing mentality from Attacking to Positive is a big change so to go to Cautious is massive.

Firstly if MEZ-At was working for you, i'd of kept it even if using Ozil.  He'll will still be a creator due to his attributes and allowed to attack and if the MEZ fits the system better stick with it even if he's better suited to a different role/duty.

Defense wise is those defensive instructions... they're extreme. Teams that are good at counter attacking will cause you major problems.  Do you need to be so extreme? Especially without Counter Press, your practically Counter Pressing non-stop.

Attack wise i'd try to add a bit of variety in the front 3 rather than having both flanks do the same and all 3 on attack duty.

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