FM18 anyone else having problems with excessive amounts of long shots?

[tedthelabrador]

I've got work ball into box, slow tempo and retain possession on but my team repeatedly shoot from range! I've recent gone from a 4-1-2-2-1 to a 4-2-3-1 formation to see if having a CAM helps, but it doesn't. At the moment, if I go a goal down it's a complete lottery whether we'll equalise as I have to hope and pray that 1 of the 20 long shots my team take manage to magically go in. If anyone has a solution to this problem, I'd be very grateful. I'd even be interested in a mod which actually makes "work ball into the box" work, if anyone knows of one.

[sporadicsmiles]

If you are seeing long shots, I would suggest you check the following.

- Are there options for your midfield players (or whoever is taking long shots) to pass to? Remember they will want to pass forward as well, if there are no options, they will shoot.

- Do you have players with the shoots from range PPM?

Retain possession, slow tempo and work ball into box are not going to necessarily make shooting from distance go down. It may make it worse. Slow tempo gives the AI team more time to get back into position, blocking passing lanes and space. retain possession mostly lowers the passing range. If there are not any good passing options on short range, it could lead to long shots. Same for work ball into the box, if there is no way to work ball into the box, the player may shoot instead. I think decisions can also affect this, and maybe vision.

I am fairly certain that a lot of people are going to comment about how they also experiencing this, and how it means the game is broke. It does not mean that. Long shots are a fact of life, and you do have to manage them. I rarely have players taking a lot of long shots in a game any more, because I paid attention to why they were doing it, and provided them alternative passing options.

[tedthelabrador]

4 minutes ago, sporadicsmiles said:

- Are there options for your midfield players (or whoever is taking long shots) to pass to? Remember they will want to pass forward as well, if there are no options, they will shoot.

Yes, there are plenty. It's often my CMs who do the long shots and there are at 3-4 players ahead of them.

4 minutes ago, sporadicsmiles said:

- Do you have players with the shoots from range PPM?

No, none of my players have that ppm.

[XaW]

You do know that all these instructions reduce the passing range? And if you don't have players inside that range your players might not see any other option than shooting? Have you looked at the situations where your players shoot? Do they have anyone else close by? I mean really close by. If not, then the player might not see any pass available and then shoot since he doesn't have any options.

In my last game I had 4 of 15 shots as long shots. (I'm the away team in the screenshot below)

I had a lot of long shots before I changed the tactic at the start of FM18, but now I don't have any issues. Of course, against teams who park the bus it's harder to create chances and more long shots will be expected if you are unable to stretch out play and create space for your attacking players.

Since you haven't posted much about how you are set up, it's kind of hard to guess what tactical issues you are experiencing, but I'm guessing it's too congested just around the opponent's box and your players don't see any other options than firing off a shot and hoping for the best.

I uploaded a goal I had where my players doubled up on the left side and even a short pass inside the box to score. This was against an opponent who had shut us out the entire game.

I'm guessing a lot of people will tell you it's a bug and it's impossible to avoid, but it's not. However, it's not always easy to spot WHY it happens and the game could be more helpful to players so they can identify the tactical issue themselves. If you were to post in the tactical discussion forum I think a lot of people could help you identify why it happens and help you try to remedy it.

[Rashidi]

31 minutes ago, tedthelabrador said:

I've got work ball into box, slow tempo and retain possession on but my team repeatedly shoot from range! I've recent gone from a 4-1-2-2-1 to a 4-2-3-1 formation to see if having a CAM helps, but it doesn't. At the moment, if I go a goal down it's a complete lottery whether we'll equalise as I have to hope and pray that 1 of the 20 long shots my team take manage to magically go in. If anyone has a solution to this problem, I'd be very grateful. I'd even be interested in a mod which actually makes "work ball into the box" work, if anyone knows of one.

Almost 80% of all the goals i now score are from inside the penalty area. You need to think about how Tis, work towards giving you a specific effect. Changing formations isn't the key to creating better chances, its how you use the current roles and duties in your side to unlock sides. When you mentioned your Tis, my immediate reaction was to think that the defending team has all the time in the world to get back to defend, so what are you doing to unlock them? Are you moving them around to unlock space? You say that your players are ahead, your long shots will occur if there are little to no options.  Like others have said, you should bring this to the training and tactics forum with more details, there are quite a number of players who are helping others and they don't have issues with long shots.

We do have crazy angles for some of these long shots, and they will still occur, but its not like these are the only kinds of attempts, personally for me, its rare unless I am giving another side a lot of time to get back and defend.

[MBarbaric]

i admit I haven't played fm18 anywhere near the previous versions. only the demo after the game was released and after the second patch. 

that being said, one thing is frequently neglected in these discussions over long shots. when a player selects work ball into the box and/or retain possession, there is a reasonable chance you might run out of passing options and the player on the ball will have to shoot from a poor position. however, what is missing from this picture, is how teams in real deal with that problem.

Teams that seek possession as a tool to break down the opposition (think of guardiola, sarri...) rely on positioning to spread the opposition and create space between defenders, off the ball movement, rotations of players to unbalance the defensive unit, technique to operate in tight spaces packed by defenders, third men runs, blind side movement... How much of this is present in the game is debatable, but another fundamental part of this approach that is frequently used in real, is the back pass.

if the opposition manages to keep it tight and passing options closed, in FM this frequently leads to a long shot. what in real football happens, is that teams use the back pass. They pass back to central defender or even the goalkeeper. 

This has two main reasons:

a) it drags the defensive team out of their defensive third creating more vertical space between the lines of the defensive unit and (depending on defensive strategy employed by the team out of possession) behind their back line

b) it allows the team in possession to reorganize themselves and retry the attack

This is a fundamental, very basic, part of any possession-hungry team that isn't really implemented in the ME and it often produces long shots. in real match, this would happen when the player on the ball is either ill disciplined (tactic-wise), frustrated or simply has poor decisions. in FM it happens way too often (at least up to FM16, but what I have seen of fm 17/18, things didn't change a lot in this regard).

[Rashidi]

1 hour ago, MBarbaric said:

i admit I haven't played fm18 anywhere near the previous versions. only the demo after the game was released and after the second patch. 

that being said, one thing is frequently neglected in these discussions over long shots. when a player selects work ball into the box and/or retain possession, there is a reasonable chance you might run out of passing options and the player on the ball will have to shoot from a poor position. however, what is missing from this picture, is how teams in real deal with that problem.

Teams that seek possession as a tool to break down the opposition (think of guardiola, sarri...) rely on positioning to spread the opposition and create space between defenders, off the ball movement, rotations of players to unbalance the defensive unit, technique to operate in tight spaces packed by defenders, third men runs, blind side movement... How much of this is present in the game is debatable, but another fundamental part of this approach that is frequently used in real, is the back pass.

if the opposition manages to keep it tight and passing options closed, in FM this frequently leads to a long shot. what in real football happens, is that teams use the back pass. They pass back to central defender or even the goalkeeper. 

This has two main reasons:

a) it drags the defensive team out of their defensive third creating more vertical space between the lines of the defensive unit and (depending on defensive strategy employed by the team out of possession) behind their back line

b) it allows the team in possession to reorganize themselves and retry the attack

This is a fundamental, very basic, part of any possession-hungry team that isn't really implemented in the ME and it often produces long shots. in real match, this would happen when the player on the ball is either ill disciplined (tactic-wise), frustrated or simply has poor decisions. in FM it happens way too often (at least up to FM16, but what I have seen of fm 17/18, things didn't change a lot in this regard).

I am interested to know what kind of backpass you are looking for:

- A backpass to a keeper while you are in attacking shape, unlocking a side and creating a goal scoring chance?
- A backpass after failing to unlock a side and then passing sideways to the other side?
- A backpass to restart the attack?

[MBarbaric]

3 minuti fa, Rashidi ha scritto:

I am interested to know what kind of backpass you are looking for:

- A backpass to a keeper while you are in attacking shape, unlocking a side and creating a goal scoring chance?
- A backpass after failing to unlock a side and then passing sideways to the other side?
- A backpass to restart the attack?

 

i.e.

2' 20''
6' 40''
7' 00''

[Rashidi]

I just played a match twas epic, plenty of sideways and passing the ball back to my backline. Finally a pass back to my keeper who started a move to my playmaker who passed the ball sideways to unlock the other side of the pitch where we had a free player, who went in to deliver a telling cross which was finished. The hardest thing to do well, is working the ball back to your BPD. I will try and do a highlights reel of this match that was played provided the PKMs load properly or hopefully it will happen again in the next match. 

[mack4ever]

3 hours ago, tedthelabrador said:

I've got work ball into box, slow tempo and retain possession on but my team repeatedly shoot from range! I've recent gone from a 4-1-2-2-1 to a 4-2-3-1 formation to see if having a CAM helps, but it doesn't. At the moment, if I go a goal down it's a complete lottery whether we'll equalise as I have to hope and pray that 1 of the 20 long shots my team take manage to magically go in. If anyone has a solution to this problem, I'd be very grateful. I'd even be interested in a mod which actually makes "work ball into the box" work, if anyone knows of one.

Work ball into box, slow tempo and retain possession all reduce your players passing range. So you're effectively telling them to play a very safe passing game, only looking for short passes, and so even though you can see players ahead of them they are seeing a player who is either too far away or in too risky a position and so they don't make the pass.

[DP]

The game makes it far too complicated to ‘fix’. In real life a manager says ‘don’t take long shots, work the ball into the box’ and the team responds. 

You can do this in FM but it seemingly doesn’t fix the issue as well as it should and you have to think about many other aspects that are not obviously linked. It’s just not right and shows the ME as a whole is too bias towards long shots. 

[MBarbaric]

@Rashidi

didn't say it is impossible to get that behaviour. I said it isn't implemented in "retain possession" and "work ball into the box" (or in ME altogether). You can hope it will happen and it probably will, but not consistently as a tool to unbalance the defensive unit which then results in frustrating shots on goal.  in real, teams rely on this (and other things) to keep the possession while in FM, you select instructions that sound like they have the same aim, but simply don't produce the same result. Another thing to consider is that you are probably among the most ME savvy people that play the game while the average user will just see frustration and inability to, consistently, see what he wants on the pitch. This, in the end, generally leads down two paths for an average user: a) frustration and rant, b) adapting to what works within ME without excessive dwelling into minutiae of the ME.

The third, probably the most important problem, is that AI is nowhere near able to produce a similar effect which is why Man City in FM doesn't remotely look like their counterparts in real. Or any possession-hungry team for that matter.

Does the match analysis tool in the game allow to see the number/length of back passes? Would be interesting if you could pick that from your match so we could compare it to some real numbers.

[mack4ever]

Just now, DP said:

The game makes it far too complicated to ‘fix’. In real life a manager says ‘don’t take long shots, work the ball into the box’ and the team responds. 

You can do this in FM but it seemingly doesn’t fix the issue as well as it should and you have to think about many other aspects that are not obviously linked. It’s just not right and shows the ME as a whole is too bias towards long shots. 

In FM most managers aren't just giving those couple of instructions though.

In real life it might be "Number 10, don't shoot from range and try to work it into the box".

In FM it's "Number 10, don't shoot from range, try to work it into the box, keep the tempo down, don't pass long, make sure you don't give the ball away and try to pass it out to the flanks".

[Rashidi]

55 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

The third, probably the most important problem, is that AI is nowhere near able to produce a similar effect which is why Man City in FM doesn't remotely look like their counterparts in real. Or any possession-hungry team for that matter.

Here I agree, what the match engine does with respect to roles and duties and using the whole tool kit, it falls short.

55 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

Does the match analysis tool in the game allow to see the number/length of back passes? Would be interesting if you could pick that from your match so we could compare it to some real numbers.

I might try finding out, comparing two different systems I've used, a 523 that plays like a 343 and a 433 which I used with Kingstonian, in the 343 a lot of recirculation back to the keeper so much so that the key pass combos with my keeper are the highest, with Kingstonian, not nearly as high. In some of my latest games playing a high block, I've noticed that with the style of play I employ I get crazy key pass combos with my keeper gonna try and pull this out.  The analyst report shows the number of back passes and sideways passes in a game.

This was a recent match that Ajax played 63 backward passes and 257 sideways passes.  For this game there were 25 passes between the keeper and 2 central defenders, my competition was City, under Pep, their side managed 34 passes between the keeper and the backline.  My Kingstonian team manage 34 pass combinations between the keeper and the backline leading to the one solitary chance we needed for the goal, which was beautifully worked between the keeper and the playmakers.

Both tactics are different, in one I am playing with a 523 that plays like a 343 and in another I am playing with a 4123, can't get more accurate numbers, I'd need to count each one individually. And I used Retain Possession for both, but this is where we need to be intelligent with that instruction, but thats for the training and tactics forum.

 

 

[MBarbaric]

it would be good if you had a save where you play to dominate possession, or where you try to emulate guardiola type of team, so we could compare the number of these back passes.  

[Rashidi]

10 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

it would be good if you had a save where you play to dominate possession, or where you try to emulate guardiola type of team, so we could compare the number of these back passes.  

I am doing a high block series now which is kinda evolving...so both Kingstonian and Ajax will be trying the same principles in slightly different ways. The 523 turning into a 343 sees more keeper action. I am interested to find out as well. Need to dig up the backward passes numbers for Man City to find out.

Having offered up the numbers, I need to qualify this, the pass combos also include passes to the keeper from short kicks.

[jujigatame]

I do think the number of long shots is excessive regardless of tactics.  Players just seem to have trouble determining what a "good" shot is.  You see too many shots from near the corner of the penalty area which is an extremely low percentage shot that most players IRL know not to attempt.  I've also seen multiple cases of players on a break (like a 2-on-1) where they stop and fire from the edge of the box when a defender gets close rather than play their teammate in.

[MBarbaric]

the analysis tool in FM is really good and I assume there will be a grid so you can select zones where you want to pick the passes from. The tool should allow you to select the middle third of the pitch which is really the important part and should probably exclude the backpasses to GK from free kicks leaving you with mostly passes in open play.

something like the above picture, although I am not sure if it includes sideways and backwards passes or just backwards. Will take a look if I can find something more substantial. This is from Chelsea match. Squawka says that against arsenal they had 258 backwards passes but that includes the whole pitch so it will be hard to consolidate the stats.

[XaW]

3 minutes ago, jujigatame said:

I do think the number of long shots is excessive regardless of tactics.  Players just seem to have trouble determining what a "good" shot is.  You see too many shots from near the corner of the penalty area which is an extremely low percentage shot that most players IRL know not to attempt.  I've also seen multiple cases of players on a break (like a 2-on-1) where they stop and fire from the edge of the box when a defender gets close rather than play their teammate in.

Well, I can't speak for everyone else, but my tactic rarely have long shots. This is my last match, I'm the away team:

I had 4 long shots from 14. An acceptable ration in my opinion. Having an excessive amount is, for me, a clue that your tactic isn't creating space and the players don't have any other options, or that strikers are too isolated. Just to mention a few possibilities. I agree the game should tell you in a better way, but as it is it'll have to do. I constantly try to improve my tactic, and when i did some changes to the one I used now, I ended with this:

17 long shots. This tells me that while I have more shots it's a poorer version. When looking at the shots they are often from pressed positions and with few other choices due to my tactical instructions. Let's take a look at the poorest shot I had. From the analysis:

I looked up the situation with the shot out to a throw in. And this is the 2D view of it:

My midfielder are not very good at shooting. 5 Long shots and 4 finishing, but his job was supposed to be more a passer. But due to my instructions (High tempo, more direct passing, attacking) he cannot see any of the options he could have if I had played a slower paced tactic. There is a player available on the right wing, but that is a hard spot, he also don't have any defensive outlets to pass to and when he is under such high pressure from the opponent he shoots, and misses by a mile. This tells me my players don't have enough options and not enough defensive outlets.

So for me the long shots are simply a symptom of a faulty tactic that needs to be looked to find out WHY the long shots are occurring. 

[DP]

10 hours ago, XaW said:

Well, I can't speak for everyone else, but my tactic rarely have long shots. This is my last match, I'm the away team:

I had 4 long shots from 14. An acceptable ration in my opinion. Having an excessive amount is, for me, a clue that your tactic isn't creating space and the players don't have any other options, or that strikers are too isolated. Just to mention a few possibilities. I agree the game should tell you in a better way, but as it is it'll have to do. I constantly try to improve my tactic, and when i did some changes to the one I used now, I ended with this:

17 long shots. This tells me that while I have more shots it's a poorer version. When looking at the shots they are often from pressed positions and with few other choices due to my tactical instructions. Let's take a look at the poorest shot I had. From the analysis:

I looked up the situation with the shot out to a throw in. And this is the 2D view of it:

My midfielder are not very good at shooting. 5 Long shots and 4 finishing, but his job was supposed to be more a passer. But due to my instructions (High tempo, more direct passing, attacking) he cannot see any of the options he could have if I had played a slower paced tactic. There is a player available on the right wing, but that is a hard spot, he also don't have any defensive outlets to pass to and when he is under such high pressure from the opponent he shoots, and misses by a mile. This tells me my players don't have enough options and not enough defensive outlets.

So for me the long shots are simply a symptom of a faulty tactic that needs to be looked to find out WHY the long shots are occurring. 

Sorry but I’m completely unsold on this notion that a player shoots when he is under high pressure :/ football doesn’t work like that. If a player isn’t in an optimal shooting position and is ‘under pressure’ he’ll usually looks to shield the ball or pass it back to a team mate in a better position. People don’t shoot when it’s the last option, they shoot when they feel they’re in a position to score - or sometimes have a long shot if they’re feeling confident but it’s usually not through being pressured or a lack of option to lay it off to someone else. You’re making excuses for a match engine that has excessive shooting. 

[XaW]

1 minute ago, DP said:

Sorry but I’m completely unsold on this notion that a player shoots when he is under high pressure :/ football doesn’t work like that. If a player isn’t in an optimal shooting position and is ‘under pressure’ he’ll usually looks to shield the ball or pass it back to a team mate in a better position. People don’t shoot when it’s the last option, they shoot when they feel they’re in a position to score - or sometimes have a long shot if they’re feeling confident but it’s usually not through being pressured or a lack of option to lay it off to someone else. You’re making excuses for a match engine that has excessive shooting. 

I'm not making any excuses, nor am I defending the game against valid criticism. However, I speak up against complaining when it's tactics related. Even more when it's the users fault and they refuse to do anything. It's like complaining your car doesn't go any faster when you refuse to shift gears. Then complaining when someone tries to tell you why. Sorry for the car analogy... 

The thing with shooting from bad angles is that it's often a much better decision to shoot than to lose the ball and suffer a counterattack. To "finish the attack" is always preferable to losing the ball to an opponent. Take another look at the image I posted above. What options does my player have? None, he cannot pass it back since both my central defenders are marked off, losing the ball would likely mean a counter from the opposition since they are 2v2 against my defenders. My fullback on the left is in the shadow of the winger. No other outs, and when a player knows he will lose the ball it's better to hope for the best and fire away.

Most of the time, when it is possible, a player will do as you stated, try to shield the ball and pass it to someone, but if you don't create space there won't be any players available to pass to, and that's when the horrible shooting occurs. As I stated, I think the game should be more helpful pointing out that the lack of space or movement is the issue, but as it stands it doesn't.

I've shown how and why I think this is the issue, with examples, but you simply say "no, you're wrong". Please show examples and evidence of your thinking if you disagree and I'll be more than happy to take a look. But this is more for for the tactics forum really.

[DP]

I’m saying you’re wrong based on watching real football and the higher likelihood of an AI that has a problem with long shots. I guess there are two trains of thought; do everything you can with your tactics as the issue is currently within the rules of the game or accept there is a problem with how the ME represents football for certain scenarios and the dev team addressing it.

You’re playing within the boundaries of the first and trying to make it work in the limitations of the game, which is fine, but this is frustrating for most people who want to see a realistic outcome. 9 times out of 10 there would be an option in real life if teams were told not to have long shots. A player would make a move for the player in possession or he’d create his own space to pass to someone else, possibly even backwards to centre backs. It’s very rare to see a shot as the ‘only’ option. 

[XaW]

21 minutes ago, DP said:

I’m saying you’re wrong based on watching real football and the higher likelihood of an AI that has a problem with long shots. I guess there are two trains of thought; do everything you can within your tactics as the issue is currently within the rules of the game or accept there is a problem with how the ME represents football for certain scenarios and the dev team addressing it.

You’re playing within the boundaries of the first and trying to make it work in the limitations of the game, which is fine, but this is frustrating for most people who want to see a realistic outcome. 9 times out of 10 there would be an option in real life if teams were told not to have long shots. A player would make a move for the player in possession or he’d create his own space to pass to someone else, possibly even backwards to centre backs. It’s very rare to see a shot as the ‘only’ option. 

Well, I'm saying I'm correct my playing at high youth level myself. And the coaches always instructed to shoot or clear the ball to avoid counterattacks if there was no other options. In real life it's much rarer, to be sure, but there you have much more qualified managers than us making sure that these things don't happen as often. It's often more visible in real life in crossing. Players under pressure will cross it into the box with few attackers anywhere near, or pooling it up field and hoping a striker will run after it. The reason this doesn't happen in real life is because in real life managers don't create tactics that unbalanced as many do in here. There are limitations in the ME, no doubt about it, but claiming long shots is the biggest thing is looking at it from the wrong angle in my opinion. Improved player AI and awareness of players around is much more needed for me. Long shots is a symptom, not the issue. The issue is illogical tactical instructions from the user and the game should be more forthcoming in explaining this to the user.

[DP]

Oh on that I totally agree. The deeper issues take longer to resolve, hence why there were probably no ME changes this time. My point is that the symptoms are what people see, unfortunately. 

The game should help a lot more with illogical tactics as it’s too easy to fall into the trap. 

[herne79]

21 minutes ago, DP said:

It’s very rare to see a shot as the ‘only’ option. 

I quite agree with this in relation to real life.

This is also true of FM where players do have the option.  And there's the crux of the matter - primarily due to tactical settings, they don't always have options and so it becomes shoot or be tackled.  It's the same basic principle with systems that produce lots of crosses imo: player too isolated on the wing, makes a cross; player too isolated near goal, tries a shot.

Of course sometimes you look at the moment and think "well there are options" but for whatever reason the game doesn't see those options at the time.  Maybe the "free" player was a bit too closely marked for the ME's liking; maybe the player in possession has low Teamwork and so selfishly took a shot; maybe the player in possession lacked composure or can't handle pressure well and so panicked; maybe a hundred other reasons.

It's possible to reduce all of those issues via tactical settings and improving your squad.  My current save usually produces between 10 and 20 shots (the majority from inside the area) and crosses per game.  But ambiguous tactical labels and descriptions don't make it clear how to go about doing that.  "Work Ball Into Box" is a particular villain here as the OP has found out.  It's not the magic button to press to suddenly turn your team into giving close support at all times to recycle possession once attacking lanes close.  But the game would have you believe it is.

And that's the key in FM as it is in real life - make sure your players have support at all (well ok, most) times.  But it's not always obvious how to go about achieving that.

[XaW]

41 minutes ago, DP said:

Oh on that I totally agree. The deeper issues take longer to resolve, hence why there were probably no ME changes this time. My point is that the symptoms are what people see, unfortunately. 

The game should help a lot more with illogical tactics as it’s too easy to fall into the trap. 

I think we are quite in agreement here. The underlying reason is tactics, but the game is not good enough to explain why other than long shots. I get why people react, my point was that it's possible to remedy, since it's simply a symptom that they are doing something wrong. That is also why I keep pointing people towards the tactic forum when they have issues. Since it is a tactical error after all.

[DP]

3 hours ago, XaW said:

I think we are quite in agreement here. The underlying reason is tactics, but the game is not good enough to explain why other than long shots. I get why people react, my point was that it's possible to remedy, since it's simply a symptom that they are doing something wrong. That is also why I keep pointing people towards the tactic forum when they have issues. Since it is a tactical error after all.

It is a tactical error in the rules that the game abides by. However in the purest sense I should be able to go with a basic 4-4-2, set long shots to low and not expect to see as many as you would in this engine. More so than in FM17 for example. The whole tactical side needs massive amounts of over simplyfying with options of depth if you want to. 

However seeing as tactics are an overlay for the current engine the engine needs an overhaul before the tactics can. There must be plans/work ongoing for a new engine and I’d love to see what it looks like but it’ll turn many aspects of the current game completely on its head - hopefully for the better, long term. 

[Svenc]

On 5.3.2018 at 14:32, DP said:

It is a tactical error in the rules that the game abides by. However in the purest sense I should be able to go with a basic 4-4-2, set long shots to low and not expect to see as many as you would in this engine. More so than in FM17 for example. The whole tactical side needs massive amounts of over simplyfying with options of depth if you want to.

This is a bit off-topic, but out of interest, what do you consider a basic 4-4-2? In-game as well as in football after all, one man's 4-4-2 can be as wildly different than the next ones. There may be an issue here after all too, also long-term (regardless of any release). Because the game does not spoon feed that. In fact, it allows you to field a bit of crap easily, as it's not as "basic" as simply picking a 4-4-2 formation from the drop down list, pick some random roles and a couple players (disregarding their traits, in particular the positioning ones), off you roll. Question is, would it need to?

[RBKalle]

So which is it?

a) High tempo and direct passing style force the players to take long shots from hopeless positions because the instructions don't allow them to wait and look for better passing options

b) Low tempo, retain possession and short passing force the players to take long shots from hopeless positions because the instructions allow the opposition's defense to close all the passing spaces and/or some viable passing options are "out of range"?

It can't be both... Or, rather, it could be both and it's still due to the ME/AI not "seeing" backpass options and not having "start over from the back" as an acceptable choice.

I'm sorry to sound like a broken record, but it's yet again a case of FM saying one thing and doing another, with only a passing resemblance to what the same set of instructions would be in real football.

[DP]

1 hour ago, Svenc said:

This is a bit off-topic, but out of interest, what do you consider a basic 4-4-2? In-game as well as in football after all, one man's 4-4-2 can be as wildly different than the next ones. There may be an issue here after all too, also long-term (regardless of any release). Because the game does not spoon feed that. In fact, it allows you to field a bit of crap easily, as it's not as "basic" as simply picking a 4-4-2 formation from the drop down list, pick some random roles and a couple players (disregarding their traits, in particular the positioning ones), off you roll. Question is, would it need to?

My argument is that my formation and default tactics with less long shots should not be seeing as many long shots - certainly those that go for a throw. It didn’t in FM17 so why in 18? It’s because the ME isn’t balanced properly with long shots. Like it isn’t with other examples like goalkeepers not being able to be sent off - these are ME balancing issues and that’s the core of the problem.  

Sure you can fine tune your formation extensively to reduce long shots further but why should you have to? And what are the knock on effects to the style of play?

[Svenc]

See where you're coming from. The topic seemed to be about about an "excessive amount of long shots" -- e.g. generally.  The following is just a few musings -- The OP seemed to highlight basic formations in particular too. Same as I don't know his 4-2-3-1, I have no idea what a "basic 4-4-2" is. Is it Simeone's Atletico? Is it the traditionally British winger play kind of 4-4-2? Is it the kind of 4-4-2 the German national team used to play around the WC06, where Ballack in the middle was given license to get forward, whilst Frings was responsible to cover? If the ME is going to be a game of footie, there will be always input that forces stuff upon players. There is no "one button" that it would make it magically stop.  Trying to force-stop all ranged attempts would be fantasy exercise too. I have beefs with the ME, UI, etc. also. Still:

-If a team in football isolates attacking players that are easily pushed then that results in them having to shoot a few added times.
-If a team in football compresses the attacking space by doing vice versa, pushing every player up where they all sit in the same space, similar may occur.
-A slow probing possession based style of football meanwhile runs out of options in front of the opposition box if there isn't passing angles opened up. Play completely bogs down as players will be easily engaged and marked. Bad weather/pitches may bog down that further, if simulated proper.
-Meanwhile, a quick direct style of football through a lone forward may see him without any other option on the other end.

That's just from the attacking end. There is various defensive approaches that specifically aim to force ranged attempts from the opposition. That's tactical "problems" that if the game doesn't replicate, it struggles to replicate team sports basics 101. If that isn't in, the game should just drop a proper match engine and just take into account player quality to determine who's more likely to win (On The Ball, Total Football Management). However, if that were in, the game assumes you may appreciate a few of this, regardless of any release. "Too many long shots" were reported for FM17 too.

I like some of the stuff brought about by MBarbaric again. It's traditionally been a bit of a thing as of FM: once the ball is moved out of the backline, it rarely, if ever goes back again to rebuild. It also isn't kept in the backline for very long, whereas in football the ball moves between the CBs oftenly so that they can assess where to play. Even if you try to force it -- it will mainly be passed around the DMs/CMs sitting deep. In parts the CBs on FM can't much push up anyhow, naturally as they would put the opposition forwards onside (the "fishermen" parking at the halfway line).

[tedthelabrador]

Just an update, I've changed my formation in order to create more opportunities in the final third but the problem still persists. My new formation:

                       GK

WB (A)    CB (D)  CB (D)   WB (A)

                      BWM (D)

IF (S)        AP (S)   SS (A)     IF (S)

                        F9 (S)

TIs: Shorter Passing, lower tempo, work ball into the box, play out of defence, low crosses, roam from positions.

Long shots are still a problem despite the fact that players having a wealth of options (at least 4 other attackers!). Very annoying that long shots weren't at least reduced slightly in the last patch.

 

[RBKalle]

I've been playing a plain 4-4-2 (2 wingers, CM (D), CM (S), TM (S), AF (A)) and my central midfielders take 4-5 [long] shots each, despite the "Shoot less often" instruction.

I've tried to tinker around with tempo, mentality etc, but almost every other time they have the ball around the edge of the box, they shoot instead of passing out wide or of trying a through ball to the striker.

Frankly, the only situation where such long shots are "acceptable" are, like in real life, if there's a huge chance for conceding a counter on the turnover, if the player has a decent shooting foot, or if his judgement is completely wrong.
Other than that, the obvious choice should be another pass, sideways or backwards.

[Svenc]

2 hours ago, RBKalle said:

Frankly, the only situation where such long shots are "acceptable" are, like in real life, if there's a huge chance for conceding a counter on the turnover, if the player has a decent shooting foot, or if his judgement is completely wrong.
Other than that, the obvious choice should be another pass, sideways or backwards.

Added long shots will and should always be a logical symptom if a team denies space and the attacking team fails to create it. Players may not be only marked, the ball carrier may also come under pressure, players may dribble into cul de sacs  and are forced to make other decisions. There's a reason why shot maps against teams parking the bus tend to look like this in football. This influences to a degree that generally an average 30-50% of all seasonal shots are from outside the area. Also bear in mind that you can deny spaces too. I think that's some of the few decent in-match ass-man feedback the game has had: him pointing out that the opposition is only getting attempts from range. This is in  parts also an interesting debate of how much control a manager has over things, btw. On Fifa, where players needn't have eyes in the back of their head anyway, that's a non-issue. If you wanted to, you could pass pass pass with the poorest teams as you have perfect overview, there is no mental "pressure" simulated on players, and stuff is carried out to the button pushes. However, simulating football management may be a bit different. I too think there is limitations at play. 

A few examples of various recent iterations for instance: ME inherent lack of support movement around the ball carrier leading to the player running out of options. Inside forwards on various releases in tendency cutting inside, then dribbling themselves into cul de sacs and being forced to shoot. Lone complete Forwards doing the same, picking the ball up, dribbling forward, then being crowded out and shooting. As of FM, the main key to opening/denying spaces generally is largely the roles and duty and will always be, as long as it's them that primarily govern (forward) movement -- or upfront, whether forwards are dropping into space or pushing up. Apart of all the other issues, I think the UI should display that better too -- making a genuinelly distinction between attacking and defensive shapes.

tedthelabrador's duties choices can choke the space from my end right there. It's a top heavy formation pushing 5 players inherently into the opposition area visibly, and he has two inside forwards cutting inside the same space as the two AMCs in tendency. If those wide players had a PPM to cut inside they may do it on occasion regardless of the role picked. If a guy on the left is right footed, he may on occasion cut inside too. The latter of which is also something you in the meantime only pick up from playing. Depending on how the opposition lines up, there's going to be even less space around that area (say an AI formation employing lots of central players / DMs) and that AI dropping off. I think I had a few troubles on a prior release trying to balance Celtic, as every wide player of theirs had a "cuts inside" PPM.

[Armistice]

On 04/03/2018 at 22:18, XaW said:

My midfielder are not very good at shooting. 5 Long shots and 4 finishing, but his job was supposed to be more a passer. But due to my instructions (High tempo, more direct passing, attacking) he cannot see any of the options he could have if I had played a slower paced tactic. There is a player available on the right wing, but that is a hard spot, he also don't have any defensive outlets to pass to and when he is under such high pressure from the opponent he shoots, and misses by a mile. This tells me my players don't have enough options and not enough defensive outlets.

So for me the long shots are simply a symptom of a faulty tactic that needs to be looked to find out WHY the long shots are occurring. 

I can't see the whole move so I can't tell exactly how it happened but having experienced this, in my opinion your example is more of a ME issue than a tactical issue. Throw ins around the opponent's box end up in a good % the same, most of the attacking players stay in the box and they don't drop off to offer a passing option so usually someone takes the ball, dribbles and takes a pot shot.

 

I believe FM18 ME was more "inclined" towards long shots than recycling possession.

[sporadicsmiles]

3 hours ago, Armistice said:

in my opinion your example is more of a ME issue than a tactical issue

Look at the screenshot. More than half of the team are behind him. There is no way he is getting the ball to them. Both strikers are tightly marked and the AI is sitting deep. Through balls are very unlikely to find a striker and very likely to be vaccuumed up by a defender of the goalkeeper. Both passing options to defence at blocked by strikers. The only pass option is a difficult long ball out to the right wing, and the angle is not really on to put in a good ball to run on to. Plus, if the player has low vision, he may not even see it. He is also under pressure from the player close to him. Poor decision attribute here will also hurry him into a shot. Really, the long shot is the only option in this particular screen shot. It is definitely not a ME issue here. It need not even be a tactical one from the user, just in this instance the yellow team defended well and forced a long shot because nothing else was on. This is how I try to defend against bigger teams. I do not try to stop them having the ball, I try to be compact and annoying enough that they are forced into relatively harmless long shots. 

The only time there is an issue tactically is when you are seeing long shots over and over again, without ever really having other chances. Then it is probably that you are not creating enough movement and space with your forwards, and playing against a team who are defending deep and encouraging long shots (like here). 

[MBarbaric]

40 minuti fa, sporadicsmiles ha scritto:

Really, the long shot is the only option in this particular screen shot. It is definitely not a ME issue here.

And why exactly wouldn't the player hold the ball and wait for a teammate to find space or play a back pass to #35? 

[westy8chimp]

38 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

And why exactly wouldn't the player hold the ball and wait for a teammate to find space or play a back pass to #35? 

Id say to the limit of the current me and graphics... That the opponent 15 is both blocking the passing lane to 35 and pressuring enough that waiting for a teammate was not an option. 

Id still like more options to point to specific moments like that from a match and berate the players. Maybe a future enhancement to training module is to have sessions reviewing the previous match. 

If i really didnt want my team to shoot then id rather he lost the ball trying a pass or trying to beat #15 than shoot... In real life id be able to lambast the player for shooting

[XaW]

16 hours ago, Armistice said:

I can't see the whole move so I can't tell exactly how it happened but having experienced this, in my opinion your example is more of a ME issue than a tactical issue. Throw ins around the opponent's box end up in a good % the same, most of the attacking players stay in the box and they don't drop off to offer a passing option so usually someone takes the ball, dribbles and takes a pot shot.

I believe FM18 ME was more "inclined" towards long shots than recycling possession.

I don't think it's an ME issue, I think it was down to my tactical instructions. When I changed it to a midfielder dropping deeper between the two central defenders, I rarely have this happen, since the midfielder then act as the pivot I needed to recycle possession.

12 hours ago, MBarbaric said:

And why exactly wouldn't the player hold the ball and wait for a teammate to find space or play a back pass to #35? 

Because of my tactical instructions (High tempo, more direct passing, attacking) encourage him to do something quickly, direct and attacking. And since he is under pressure and in danger of losing the ball, a long shot is the preferred option here, unless I thought the player able to dribble past his marker (and I don't, he isn't that good).

13 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

Look at the screenshot. More than half of the team are behind him. There is no way he is getting the ball to them. Both strikers are tightly marked and the AI is sitting deep. Through balls are very unlikely to find a striker and very likely to be vaccuumed up by a defender of the goalkeeper. Both passing options to defence at blocked by strikers. The only pass option is a difficult long ball out to the right wing, and the angle is not really on to put in a good ball to run on to. Plus, if the player has low vision, he may not even see it. He is also under pressure from the player close to him. Poor decision attribute here will also hurry him into a shot. Really, the long shot is the only option in this particular screen shot. It is definitely not a ME issue here. It need not even be a tactical one from the user, just in this instance the yellow team defended well and forced a long shot because nothing else was on. This is how I try to defend against bigger teams. I do not try to stop them having the ball, I try to be compact and annoying enough that they are forced into relatively harmless long shots. 

The only time there is an issue tactically is when you are seeing long shots over and over again, without ever really having other chances. Then it is probably that you are not creating enough movement and space with your forwards, and playing against a team who are defending deep and encouraging long shots (like here). 

Agreed, and that is why I think this can be solved tactically (IF it happens a lot, and it did with the tactic I played then). As I stated, dropping a midfielder deeper in between the centre backs allowed the team to recycle possession a lot better.