More random hikes in CA

[John_Yuki]

I think this one has probably already been mentioned, but I don't think players should just more or less stop developing once they reach a certain age. Players in real life do suddenly find fantastic ability and improve immensely, regardless of age. Jamie Vardy is probably the prime example here. Obviously this should definitely be a rare thing, but I think it would be great think to add to the game.

You could also have the reverse happen, where players who have a sustained poor run of form rapidly lose attributes, such as what happened with Torres when he moved from Liverpool to Chelsea.

[FrazT]

Players who do have a marked form change can and will be looked at by the researchers at the regular updates.  Attribute and CA changes do already happen, although there does need to be considerable evidence and not just a fan's opinion to justify that

[John_Yuki]

12 hours ago, FrazT said:

Players who do have a marked form change can and will be looked at by the researchers at the regular updates.  Attribute and CA changes do already happen, although there does need to be considerable evidence and not just a fan's opinion to justify that

I mean once a game has been started, not just through data updates. For example, I might be managing some random 7th tier English team in 2025 and I have this regen who bangs in 50 goals in each of the next two seasons. Because of this, his attributes see a relatively big rise, along with his value, and reputation. This is something that happens a fair bit, especially in lower league football, where you have semi-pro players in the 9th tier suddenly being looked at by football league clubs because of their performances. In the game this doesn't happen because the AI only really look at the CA of the player, meaning if this player who banged in 100 goals over two seasons had **** poor attributes, you wouldn't have Football League clubs coming in for him, even though that would be the likely case in real life.

[HUNT3R]

3 minutes ago, John_Yuki said:

I mean once a game has been started, not just through data updates. For example, I might be managing some random 7th tier English team in 2025 and I have this regen who bangs in 50 goals in each of the next two seasons. Because of this, his attributes see a relatively big rise, along with his value, and reputation. This is something that happens a fair bit, especially in lower league football, where you have semi-pro players in the 9th tier suddenly being looked at by football league clubs because of their performances. In the game this doesn't happen because the AI only really look at the CA of the player, meaning if this player who banged in 100 goals over two seasons had **** poor attributes, you wouldn't have Football League clubs coming in for him, even though that would be the likely case in real life.

Star ratings are influenced by form, so you're asking for more deviation in perceived ability and potential?

[John_Yuki]

On 1/27/2018 at 13:54, HUNT3R said:

Star ratings are influenced by form, so you're asking for more deviation in perceived ability and potential?

No, I'm not talking about star ratings either. I'm talking about raw attributes, not perception. If a player who has 10 finishing scores like 50 goals in a season, his finishing and composure might jump up 2 points. Same goes for defenders who have insanely high tackling success, their tackling might go up a point.

These changes could happen at the end of the season. It would much better reflect players like Jamie Vardy who rapidly improve in their late 20's, something which the game currently does not allow. Sure, they improve, but they don't go from a mediocre striker to a top Premier League striker over the course of two seasons.

Having this in the game would mean players, like Jamie Vardy and Fernando Torres, have massive spikes and dips in their value, attributes, and reputation due to amazing/extremely poor seasons. Currently the only way to reflect this in game is to use the editor. It just makes it more realistic to have the game recognise these performances and adjust the players attributes accordingly.

[HUNT3R]

23 minutes ago, John_Yuki said:

No, I'm not talking about star ratings either. I'm talking about raw attributes, not perception. If a player who has 10 finishing scores like 50 goals in a season, his finishing and composure might jump up 2 points. Same goes for defenders who have insanely high tackling success, their tackling might go up a point.

These changes could happen at the end of the season. It would much better reflect players like Jamie Vardy who rapidly improve in their late 20's, something which the game currently does not allow. Sure, they improve, but they don't go from a mediocre striker to a top Premier League striker over the course of two seasons.

Having this in the game would mean players, like Jamie Vardy and Fernando Torres, have massive spikes and dips in their value, attributes, and reputation due to amazing/extremely poor seasons. Currently the only way to reflect this in game is to use the editor. It just makes it more realistic to have the game recognise these performances and adjust the players attributes accordingly.

Work has gone into the game the last couple of editions to provide more variety, including late and early bloomers, so this (like the popular Vardy example) is already possible in FM though.

[John_Yuki]

44 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

Work has gone into the game the last couple of editions to provide more variety, including late and early bloomers, so this (like the popular Vardy example) is already possible in FM though.

How late are we talking though? Do you have examples or any before/after images of late bloomers? I haven't seen anyone mention an old player suddenly becoming really good attribute-wise.

[HUNT3R]

12 hours ago, John_Yuki said:

How late are we talking though? Do you have examples or any before/after images of late bloomers? I haven't seen anyone mention an old player suddenly becoming really good attribute-wise.

People don't notice them because the media doesn't highlight it in FM like they do IRL. Speaking of, it's a rare thing IRL too, so going to take a lot of effort to make note of every regen and keeping track of their progression. 

[Number seven]

In my view the "late bloomer" aren't to well dealth with in FM. If a player haven't developed fully until around 25 he won't do it at all. IRL it does happen, as the OP said, Jamie Vardy is an example. It doesn't happen to often, but there should be the possibility of a CA burst so that ingame there will be a few players like Vardy that reach their potential at a later stage of the twenties.

[santy001]

1 hour ago, Number seven said:

In my view the "late bloomer" aren't to well dealth with in FM. If a player haven't developed fully until around 25 he won't do it at all. IRL it does happen, as the OP said, Jamie Vardy is an example. It doesn't happen to often, but there should be the possibility of a CA burst so that ingame there will be a few players like Vardy that reach their potential at a later stage of the twenties.

There already is this in FM.

It absolutely happens.

Players are far less likely to notice it however.

a) Most players inherently look towards younger players
b) These players are highly valued by their clubs, so are not going to be good value for money.
c) It's not always noticeable because the vast majority who do get it are not Jamie Vardy. The fact Jamie Vardy is so frequently the example gravitated to is an example of this. Jon Walters is rarely the poster-boy for this, despite far more falling into this category and what FM tends to represent (post 25 rising and not looking out of their depth)
d) A lot of players under-appreciate the fact that a 110CA+ player is perfectly capable of performing in top leagues with the right attribute distribution, in most cases they are limited players who found teams/coaches which help to bring the best out of them that others were overlooking.

[Cint]

i think that the case with late bloomers is due to:

a) talented players who were not professional enough to work hard to develop themselves, especially if they were transfered to big club or other country at young age. Sometimes at their mid twenties such players change their personality and start to work hard.

b) avereage telented player is placed in the right tactical system that allow to play him to his best attributtes. Sometimes it requires changing of position played.

 

I think that point b) is well represented in the game. Something can be improved with point a). I know that there is a possibilty to tutor player to change his personality but u can tutor up to some age. Maybe in the code there should be something like spontanious change of personality, or maybe as someone has proposed in another thread implementation of psychologist to the game could help it as well.  Maybe the impact of transfer to big club or abroad for players under 21 should decrease determination and professional attributes. 

[Remez]

Some players perform really well despite their attribites, they are in super form and can stay that way. 

[KnightedManager]

On 09/02/2018 at 12:32, santy001 said:

There already is this in FM.

It absolutely happens.

Players are far less likely to notice it however.

a) Most players inherently look towards younger players
b) These players are highly valued by their clubs, so are not going to be good value for money.
c) It's not always noticeable because the vast majority who do get it are not Jamie Vardy. The fact Jamie Vardy is so frequently the example gravitated to is an example of this. Jon Walters is rarely the poster-boy for this, despite far more falling into this category and what FM tends to represent (post 25 rising and not looking out of their depth)
d) A lot of players under-appreciate the fact that a 110CA+ player is perfectly capable of performing in top leagues with the right attribute distribution, in most cases they are limited players who found teams/coaches which help to bring the best out of them that others were overlooking.

I have never seen this happen, in fairness. If a player gets to 24/25 and is nowhere near their maximum PA, they never get there. And I have paid attention to over-24s over the course of seasons.

[sergiobamos]

I think the OP was trying to suggest sometimes once a decade a player just comes good randomly in lower leagues like Jamie vardy later in his career.

[HemHat]

I'd be interested to know what CA/PA Elliot Lee has at the start of the game. I started a career as Luton in League 2 and he's scored 20+ a season for me in every league including the Prem. He's 28 and in his prime and he's got 9 in 10 so far on my current season. Stats wise he's a decent lower Prem striker now. 

The only thing about his rise in my game is I've never had a bid from him by any other club. He got 25+ in Leagues 1 and 2 in consecutive seasons and then in 2 seasons in the championship he got over 20. Anyone who did that in real life would be leaving Luton, but I didn't even get an enquiry. 

[Fmplaya]

On 09/02/2018 at 12:32, santy001 said:

There already is this in FM.

It absolutely happens.

Players are far less likely to notice it however.

a) Most players inherently look towards younger players
b) These players are highly valued by their clubs, so are not going to be good value for money.
c) It's not always noticeable because the vast majority who do get it are not Jamie Vardy. The fact Jamie Vardy is so frequently the example gravitated to is an example of this. Jon Walters is rarely the poster-boy for this, despite far more falling into this category and what FM tends to represent (post 25 rising and not looking out of their depth)
d) A lot of players under-appreciate the fact that a 110CA+ player is perfectly capable of performing in top leagues with the right attribute distribution, in most cases they are limited players who found teams/coaches which help to bring the best out of them that others were overlooking.

How much does the CA increase by when this occurs? 

And, can a players CA increase once they've reached it? 

[santy001]

6 hours ago, Fmplaya said:

How much does the CA increase by when this occurs? 

And, can a players CA increase once they've reached it? 

I don't know the answer, to the first point. From my understanding, there's a few factors and potential triggers at play. Again, from my understanding, there's no fixed rule - which would make sense otherwise it would become very much a "sure-win" for players once figured out.

On the second part I'm not sure what you mean, I would hazard a guess at you meaning can it increase if they've reached their PA? The answer to that is no, since PA is that players limitation in any and all situations in your game. 

[JReid]

I dislike when people suggest PA should be dynamic or changing. That is where CA is for and PA nicely shows the upper bound that every person has due to his dna. CA is the current level achieved by the underlying dna and environment.  It is like a tree which if planted in rainforest will grow to 30 metres while on a mountain won't grow taller than 4 cm and be very fragile. And truly don't want PA to be able to change or like some want being updated within a game if the player in real life is doing well. I play fm for my own simulation and not to follow the exact world, the moment I take over in july it should diverge from the real world.

But what the topic creator suggested, I do really like. I feel that now a player won't reach his full potential anymore if he is not used a lot in his early years and will get quickly stuck on a certain level. I do like the idea of a player having a chance of later growth spurt in ability. Sure the chance of developing hugely in mental aspect should be bigger for someone in his later stage, but it should not be limited. For example: someone above 24 who still has a large gap between PA and CA, should have a probability of attaining is PA and this will most likely be filled by technique and someone above 28 with a large gap should really be able to grow a lot and most likely develop his mental aspects. But in both scenarios, there should be a chance of other traits (like for example more physical attributes) to grow.

Sure now we also have that someone who has points left between CA and PA will at late stage gain points in mental aspects, but these are quite minor, never is a gap of 20 or 30 points between CA and PA overtaken. Plus there should be probability of other aspects to close this large gap and not just mental. The other aspects like physical or technique should just have lower probability but not be impossible. This will also solve one of my irritation that big talents bought by AI will get wasted since they don't get enough play time and play time has a super big weight in FM in terms of determining growth.

[Neil Brock]

Reviewed so locked.