Help building my 4-1-2-3

[BlairNo.1]

By now you've probably seen enough of my threads asking for tactical help. After lots and lots of failed attempts at a 4-1-2-3 I started to try and build other tactics. I was equally unsuccessful and also just found myself wanting to go back to my preferred shape. I've now gone back to the 4-1-2-3 and I am in the process of testing my current tactic which I am relatively please with so far. 

I've done plenty of reading through the forums and for the first time I am watching the games (during testing) on comprehensive highlights and using the analysis tool to try and help me improve it.

So, what I'm trying to achieve is a tactic that will allow me to control the games or the majority of, quite a patient build up with plenty of neat and tidy passing.

What I have so far is:

 

I have selected quite a few TI's but I feel there is reason for them. 

Fairly wide - I am quite a strong team so expect smaller teams to defend deep and try to be difficult to break down. This will just make my play that bit wider and stretch their defence.

Slightly higher and more closing down - I want to win the ball back quickly and dominate possession. Both of these should help with that.

Offside trap - This is due to the high line. I found that play a high line of results in balls over the top so I am trying to prevent this.

Work ball into the box - This is mainly to minimise long shots. Admittedly, this is an instruction I always use because long shots always seem to be a problem. I know this is mainly due to problems in other areas.

Look for overlap - After looking at the passing combinations I found that the majority of passes between the DL and the AML were long. Also, the DL wasn't venturing much past the halfway line so this is to encourage him to join the attack.

Roam from positions - I feel that Liverpool are quite a technical and creative side going forward. This instruction is mainly to mix things up a bit going forward and make sure my play is not too predictable.

 

I have added the following player instructions. These are mainly to stop the defenders misplacing passes and keeping things simple. I have also asked the fullbacks to mark tighter as I found the opposition wide players were receiving the ball out wide with no pressure on them.

 

I am 100% open to criticism and if there are any major flaws you see I would like you to point them out. I would like to keep working with this as I do have a thinking behind my choices. Upto now, the main problem I have found is that the ST is not involved in play too much. When I look at passing combinations he is the least involved. Whilst I want him to be involved in the build up and offer a passing option I also want him to contribute with goals.

Thanks in advance.

[Cruyffsheirs]

If you're wanting you striker to get more involved in play I would set him to a support duty. Strikers will always be a goal threat whatever role you set due to their position on the field, and their base mentality due to being in the striker position. Adding an attacking mentality will add on to his already attacking mentality. 

He also has few options to link up with being that high up the pitch. Without having someone in the AM role he doesn't naturally have someone to interchange with. In this system, the only player he has to connect with is the MZ who also has an attacking mentality and is looking to get forward. 

Bobby Firmino is a very versatile striker who can play pretty much every role so I wouldn't worry about him not 'suiting' it perfectly. If you want a line leading striker still I would suggest even just setting you CF(a) to a CF(s), or in my experience Firmino works great in a F9 and still scores quite a bit. The F9 would also look to feed your IF(a) and your MZ(a), it might not make him an unstoppable juggernaut but could improve the team as a whole. 

[summatsupeer]

Lets just look at the roles of your front 5 as regardless of your mentality, shape or TI's I think you've got an issue:

1. CF-A who plays on the shoulder but can also move into the channels and wider areas.
2. W-S staying wider on the right and will push high with the ball and be a presence in the box in final third
3. IF-A starting wide and moving through left channel also pushing high with/without the ball
4. MEZ-A pushing high and working channel pushing high without the ball and into the right channel.
5. CAR-S who won't move around very much (stays in MC area rather than AM area).

Out of your front 5 players, 4 will get forward with/without the ball and will move into wider areas.  Only a CAR will support attacks in the middle but that will be limited and not really a creative role/player.  Is the problem your ST or the lack of anyone using the #10 area with regularity?  Players might use it sometimes but thats probably due to them using creativity/traits and not following there instructions.  I don't think your TI's will do anything to help this issue, if anything your emphasizing the wide play even more yet don't want crosses, but who's in position in central midfield to use pullbacks?  Width is helpful, but you need someone centrally to exploit it.

There's lots of ways to improve things.   The "simple" change would be to make the forward a support duty so he uses that #10 area himself to link play. My personal preference is to get Coutinho to collect the ball to his feet more often rather than running behind as his speed isn't as good as his technical abilities so IF-S.  If there's a player I want to run behind its Mane or maybe Salah.  Then i'd look at the midfield partnership as I'm not sure about using a MEZ, to give more width when you have 2 wide forwards and 2 forward thinking fullbacks (WB-S + FB-A)?  I know its new and people like to use new things but there needs to be a reason to use it.  The CM pair need to be balanced with the front 3 so depends how they are setup and of course the FBs need balancing with the players on the same flank.  Play is generally built up where your support players are and/or where deep players get forward, if you pull a defence to that side how will you move the ball to exploit the space created?  Try not to just say "this player creates for this player" as its a bit to simplistic, you can only create if there's space to do so which if not given by the opposition needs to be created by your pattern of play.

[BlairNo.1]

2 hours ago, Cruyffsheirs said:

If you're wanting you striker to get more involved in play I would set him to a support duty. Strikers will always be a goal threat whatever role you set due to their position on the field, and their base mentality due to being in the striker position. Adding an attacking mentality will add on to his already attacking mentality. 

He also has few options to link up with being that high up the pitch. Without having someone in the AM role he doesn't naturally have someone to interchange with. In this system, the only player he has to connect with is the MZ who also has an attacking mentality and is looking to get forward. 

Bobby Firmino is a very versatile striker who can play pretty much every role so I wouldn't worry about him not 'suiting' it perfectly. If you want a line leading striker still I would suggest even just setting you CF(a) to a CF(s), or in my experience Firmino works great in a F9 and still scores quite a bit. The F9 would also look to feed your IF(a) and your MZ(a), it might not make him an unstoppable juggernaut but could improve the team as a whole. 

That's what I was leaning towards. I think I'll try the F9 as it does seem to suit Firmino and Sturridge when fit. Sturridge also has the PPM to come deep for the ball. I'll see how I go with that.

Cheers

[BlairNo.1]

13 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

Lets just look at the roles of your front 5 as regardless of your mentality, shape or TI's I think you've got an issue:

1. CF-A who plays on the shoulder but can also move into the channels and wider areas.
2. W-S staying wider on the right and will push high with the ball and be a presence in the box in final third
3. IF-A starting wide and moving through left channel also pushing high with/without the ball
4. MEZ-A pushing high and working channel pushing high without the ball and into the right channel.
5. CAR-S who won't move around very much (stays in MC area rather than AM area).

Out of your front 5 players, 4 will get forward with/without the ball and will move into wider areas.  Only a CAR will support attacks in the middle but that will be limited and not really a creative role/player.  Is the problem your ST or the lack of anyone using the #10 area with regularity?  Players might use it sometimes but thats probably due to them using creativity/traits and not following there instructions.  I don't think your TI's will do anything to help this issue, if anything your emphasizing the wide play even more yet don't want crosses, but who's in position in central midfield to use pullbacks?  Width is helpful, but you need someone centrally to exploit it.

There's lots of ways to improve things.   The "simple" change would be to make the forward a support duty so he uses that #10 area himself to link play. My personal preference is to get Coutinho to collect the ball to his feet more often rather than running behind as his speed isn't as good as his technical abilities so IF-S.  If there's a player I want to run behind its Mane or maybe Salah.  Then i'd look at the midfield partnership as I'm not sure about using a MEZ, to give more width when you have 2 wide forwards and 2 forward thinking fullbacks (WB-S + FB-A)?  I know its new and people like to use new things but there needs to be a reason to use it.  The CM pair need to be balanced with the front 3 so depends how they are setup and of course the FBs need balancing with the players on the same flank.  Play is generally built up where your support players are and/or where deep players get forward, if you pull a defence to that side how will you move the ball to exploit the space created?  Try not to just say "this player creates for this player" as its a bit to simplistic, you can only create if there's space to do so which if not given by the opposition needs to be created by your pattern of play.

Thanks for the detailed reply.

As per the reply prior to yours I am going to try the F9 to see how that goes but it seems I have further issues also.

I'll be honest, the only reason I used the Mezzala in that area was because I had seen people saying he operated well behind a W-S. What would you suggest here? I would normally go for a CM-A as he will get forward and give the striker someone to link up with. I would imagine he will also be an option centrally for the W-S?

With regards to Coutinho as the IF-S, I could make this change but then 4 of my 5 will be on support duties after I change the striker to F9. Would this become a problem?

Would you suggest changing the W-s to a W-A? 

With the current setup and TI's I seem to be quite solid defensively but by making changes to my wide players I may have to change what my fullbacks on that side do. For example, if I changed Countinho to a support duty I would want Robertson behind him on an attack duty. The same goes for the other side, if I change to a W-A I would want a supporting fullback behind.

You mentioned that my TI's will prevent crosses, which is it in particular that would do it? Work ball into the box? 

[summatsupeer]

43 minutes ago, BlairNo.1 said:

I'll be honest, the only reason I used the Mezzala in that area was because I had seen people saying he operated well behind a W-S. What would you suggest here? I would normally go for a CM-A as he will get forward and give the striker someone to link up with. I would imagine he will also be an option centrally for the W-S?

Try and look at the wider combinations and not just how 2 players combine.  I think the main thing is that the wide forward outside of the MEZ offers something different, which a Winger does but there needs to be a reason for what they're doing.  If the MEZ-A is getting advanced of the Winger, can and will the winger play him through?  If not what other options besides dribbling/crossing does he have?  Has another player moved over to offer a simple option inside? DM-D will likely be deeper and CAR will probably stay more to the left side.  Plus you then have a FB-A also getting forward outside of the W-S.  Thats 3 high and wide players on that side, its all very the same, lots of ways to add variation it depends what you want to do and the wider tactic.  For example you could use a IWB-S to move inside of the W-S and support the MEZ.  Another example could be to let the DM move up to support attacks but then you need to consider who is covering so the 2 CBs aren't open to counter attacks.

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With regards to Coutinho as the IF-S, I could make this change but then 4 of my 5 will be on support duties after I change the striker to F9. Would this become a problem?

As long as they aren't all doing the same job in the same areas I don't think you can have too many support duties.  If anything I think this would fit with your "patient buildup" with players mixing up offering a simple pass to there feet or sometimes making a run from a deeper area rather than playing on the shoulder more often.  Just need to make sure you have the players to play a more patient style, it needs good mental attributes to select good options and crack open an organized defence that a patient build up will allow the opposition to form.  If your players are better physically than mentally it might be better to keep some pace and urgency in the attack to exploit what space there is quickly.

F9 is quite a deep role, he also works the channels so i'd watch to see if he's too deep or wide or if he's trying to do the same things as those deeper/wide players.

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Would you suggest changing the W-s to a W-A? 

I think it fits Mane better if he's your starter but needs to fit the tactic so depends on your other changes.

Quote

With the current setup and TI's I seem to be quite solid defensively but by making changes to my wide players I may have to change what my fullbacks on that side do. For example, if I changed Countinho to a support duty I would want Robertson behind him on an attack duty. The same goes for the other side, if I change to a W-A I would want a supporting fullback behind.

You don't have to have a Support+Attack duty on each flank. Yes an attack duty FB/WB overlapping a IF-S is a good combo but not required, it depends how much risk you want the FB to take to get forward. For a FB this typically means how early in transition you want them to get forward, a WB-D still provides width in the final third but will do so when its a safe option.  You could have quite a patient flank to build play through and draw opposing defenders/midfielders to that side before switching to a more attacking flank, just remember to make sure players aren't doing the same thing as another in the same area.

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You mentioned that my TI's will prevent crosses, which is it in particular that would do it? Work ball into the box? 

Work Ball Into Box reduces how highly a player rates the crossing or shooting option.  They can still cross or shoot depending on what other options they have and if there attributes allows him to see them and use them.

[BlairNo.1]

3 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

Try and look at the wider combinations and not just how 2 players combine.  I think the main thing is that the wide forward outside of the MEZ offers something different, which a Winger does but there needs to be a reason for what they're doing.  If the MEZ-A is getting advanced of the Winger, can and will the winger play him through?  If not what other options besides dribbling/crossing does he have?  Has another player moved over to offer a simple option inside? DM-D will likely be deeper and CAR will probably stay more to the left side.  Plus you then have a FB-A also getting forward outside of the W-S.  Thats 3 high and wide players on that side, its all very the same, lots of ways to add variation it depends what you want to do and the wider tactic.  For example you could use a IWB-S to move inside of the W-S and support the MEZ.  Another example could be to let the DM move up to support attacks but then you need to consider who is covering so the 2 CBs aren't open to counter attacks.

That makes sense. So as it is I would have the AM, CM and FB on the right hand side all operating in similar areas? This leaves me with just the CM(L) in the middle but not really doing much to contribute to my attacking play. Is that what you're saying?

I've decided to go for the FB-S on the right so that he doesn't venture too far forward and will contribute towards the build up. The overlap instruction should still mean that he will get forward at the right time. I've gone with the CM-A so that he will stay central and can link up with my striker and the W-S. I've also changed the Carrilero to a DLP-S. Hopefully this will mean that he will stay behind my attacking play and can be a good passing option. 

On the left flank i've gone with the WB-A behind the IF-S so I should still have some width when he overlaps.

3 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

As long as they aren't all doing the same job in the same areas I don't think you can have too many support duties.  If anything I think this would fit with your "patient buildup" with players mixing up offering a simple pass to there feet or sometimes making a run from a deeper area rather than playing on the shoulder more often.  Just need to make sure you have the players to play a more patient style, it needs good mental attributes to select good options and crack open an organized defence that a patient build up will allow the opposition to form.  If your players are better physically than mentally it might be better to keep some pace and urgency in the attack to exploit what space there is quickly.

F9 is quite a deep role, he also works the channels so i'd watch to see if he's too deep or wide or if he's trying to do the same things as those deeper/wide players.

With the changes I've made above I'm not too sure that I want the ST to come too deep and make things congested in that area as I will have the CM-A pushing forward and the IF-S cutting inside. I will stick with the CF-S for now and see how it plays out.

3 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

Work Ball Into Box reduces how highly a player rates the crossing or shooting option.  They can still cross or shoot depending on what other options they have and if there attributes allows him to see them and use them.

This may be something I look to remove. I will try a few games with and without this on and see how much difference it makes.

With those changes would that seem a bit more balanced?

[summatsupeer]

18 minutes ago, BlairNo.1 said:

That makes sense. So as it is I would have the AM, CM and FB on the right hand side all operating in similar areas? This leaves me with just the CM(L) in the middle but not really doing much to contribute to my attacking play. Is that what you're saying?

Yep, you'd have 2 or 3 players in similar area trying to do the same thing when 1 player could probably do the job better with the other 2 offering variety or creating space for him.

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I've decided to go for the FB-S on the right so that he doesn't venture too far forward and will contribute towards the build up. The overlap instruction should still mean that he will get forward at the right time.

On the left flank i've gone with the WB-A behind the IF-S so I should still have some width when he overlaps.

Look For Overlap increases the mentality of the deep wide players and tells the advanced wide players to hold up the ball similar to how say a DLF is told to.  Do you need both wings overlapping?  Whats the aim if you don't want crosses, you don't have to get a wide player to the byline to make space.  You have a natural overlap on the left side just from the roles+duties.  If you want the FB to not venture too far forward and contribute in a deeper area why use Look for Overlap?  Your making the "right time" be earlier or in slightly riskier situations than normal for the players mentality.

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I've gone with the CM-A so that he will stay central and can link up with my striker and the W-S. I've also changed the Carrilero to a DLP-S. Hopefully this will mean that he will stay behind my attacking play and can be a good passing option. 

With the changes I've made above I'm not too sure that I want the ST to come too deep and make things congested in that area as I will have the CM-A pushing forward and the IF-S cutting inside. I will stick with the CF-S for now and see how it plays out.

I don't think you'll see congestion.  The IF-S will start wider and come inside.  The ST will move back and forth between the ST and AMC area.  The CM-A will likely be moving from MC-MCR to AMC-AMCR, sometimes even ST-STCR.

I think theres a couple of build up patterns you could see now.  If it goes to the right early the W-S could drive forward supported by the CM-A who tends to stay more around his MCR position until later in transition or attacking phase, resulting in a cross, through ball for the CM-A or simple pass inside.  If it goes left the DLP-S and IF-S will likely combine, with options to go outside to the WB-A or link with the ST or switch play to the CM-A, W-S or FB-S.

I would minimize the number of TI's so you can see how the players play the roles+duties as they are by default.

[BlairNo.1]

47 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

Yep, you'd have 2 or 3 players in similar area trying to do the same thing when 1 player could probably do the job better with the other 2 offering variety or creating space for him.

Look For Overlap increases the mentality of the deep wide players and tells the advanced wide players to hold up the ball similar to how say a DLF is told to.  Do you need both wings overlapping?  Whats the aim if you don't want crosses, you don't have to get a wide player to the byline to make space.  You have a natural overlap on the left side just from the roles+duties.  If you want the FB to not venture too far forward and contribute in a deeper area why use Look for Overlap?  Your making the "right time" be earlier or in slightly riskier situations than normal for the players mentality.

I don't think you'll see congestion.  The IF-S will start wider and come inside.  The ST will move back and forth between the ST and AMC area.  The CM-A will likely be moving from MC-MCR to AMC-AMCR, sometimes even ST-STCR.

I think theres a couple of build up patterns you could see now.  If it goes to the right early the W-S could drive forward supported by the CM-A who tends to stay more around his MCR position until later in transition or attacking phase, resulting in a cross, through ball for the CM-A or simple pass inside.  If it goes left the DLP-S and IF-S will likely combine, with options to go outside to the WB-A or link with the ST or switch play to the CM-A, W-S or FB-S.

I would minimize the number of TI's so you can see how the players play the roles+duties as they are by default.

Thanks for the reply once again :-)

I've got this so far and will see how it plays out for a few months:

After one game I have noticed that the majority of my passing combinations have come on the left hand side. I imagine that is a lot to do with the play-maker being on that side. Firmino is linking quite a lot with Coutinho and also Goretzka.

The player that seems to be involved in the least amount of passing combinations is Mane. Is this due to him being out wide and maybe slightly isolated? Looking at the majority of the intercepted passes, they seem to be from the goalkeeper. Would it be worth asking him to pass short to the right FB? This will hopefully increase Mane's involvement, but also the ball will naturally work its way back over to the left through the DLP-s.

Sorry, I'm full of questions 

[summatsupeer]

No problem.

Yeah with the DLP its not suprising.  The DM-D, DLP-S and IF-S will all be combining and the WB-A will push up the line as the ball is transitioned.  It could also be to do with how the opposition setup so i'd not make any major changes just from one game.  Is he actually isolated or is he always going for something risky like dribbling at a defender and then whipping a cross in or playing it inside and then then play isn't switched back to his flank due to play through the middle or WB-A overlapping?  Emre Can could also contribute to this since he's not got great vision, decisions or acceleration (finishing is rubbish for a player in the box but he is composed) so might not see the winger, he also has "Likes to switch ball to other flank" so slightly more likely to look to the left flank.

GK distribution depends if you want to limit the GK's options.  Karius vision and decisions isn't great so I probably would, especially if you prefer to build attacks from the back rather than longer throws/kicks.  I don't think you need to force play to that right flank, if anything playing down the left could pull the defence to that side for the CM-A and W-S to exploit if play is switched.  I would watch to see if players like the DLP-S and IF-S aren't playing them through when there is an actual opportunity so might help increasing there passing directness.  Another option might be to make the winger the attack duty and the CM-A a more supportive role like BBM-S to help switch play and get Mane playing on the shoulder and taking more risks.  Depends what you see and prefer really.

[BlairNo.1]

Maybe it's time for me to accept that this game requires for too much tactical analysis for me. Gone are the days when I could make myself I half decent tactic and then focus on squad building, scouting etc.

No matter what I try I just don't seem to be able to get my team performing.

Think I'm done 

[yonko]

No offense my friend, but there more threads like this I see, the more appreciation I have for guys like @Cleon @Rashidi @herne79 @summatsupeer for their patience. I mean how many times and in how many threads have the same things been said about balancing duties, roles, instructions, etc. It ain't rocket science. If you say you read many threads, you can't miss this stuff. It's so simple - if you have a striker who is on Attack duty and you want him to get more involved, then the solution is obvious.....change his duty to Support. There is no magic role for success. It's a choice. What do you want the Striker to do? CF does everything, DLF does less and keeps it simple, F9 has more freedom, etc. Every role has a description and set of instruction which should tell you what to expect from it.

It starts with knowing what you want your team to play like and then balancing the whole thing. Start simple.

I'm sorry if it looks like I'm having a go at you. I hope you understand.

 

[BlairNo.1]

49 minutes ago, yonko said:

No offense my friend, but there more threads like this I see, the more appreciation I have for guys like @Cleon @Rashidi @herne79 @summatsupeer for their patience. I mean how many times and in how many threads have the same things been said about balancing duties, roles, instructions, etc. It ain't rocket science. If you say you read many threads, you can't miss this stuff. It's so simple - if you have a striker who is on Attack duty and you want him to get more involved, then the solution is obvious.....change his duty to Support. There is no magic role for success. It's a choice. What do you want the Striker to do? CF does everything, DLF does less and keeps it simple, F9 has more freedom, etc. Every role has a description and set of instruction which should tell you what to expect from it.

It starts with knowing what you want your team to play like and then balancing the whole thing. Start simple.

I'm sorry if it looks like I'm having a go at you. I hope you understand.

 

None taken, but what might seem simple to you and others may not be so simple to everyone.

It's not through lack of trying out different things, different roles and duties. For some reason I just seem to be having more difficulty, apologies for that

[summatsupeer]

Sometimes the issue is the players and not the tactic.  some managers can't see a players faults because the think about them in RL or disregard the weak attributes because of the strong ones. The other cmon one is because the game says that's the players best role+duty they think he should play well, but other attributes than those highlighted could matter depending on the wider tactic.  The more open, fast end to end the style the more physical attributes will matter and anticipation even if the role+duty doesn't say they need those attributes.  Another example is having too many low teamwork and vision players in your attack and too many goal scorers resulting in a lack of creation and predictable or greedy play.

[alanfishead]

After some help and advice from @summatsupeer last week I've got a very similar set up to you in regards to roles and duties apart from I use a BBM instead of CM-A and my winger is set to attack (he got 28 assists last season in all competitions, 18 in PL along with 14 goals). Using this shape got my Newcastle side up to 5th despite my away form being woeful. 

I find the striker doesn't really excel in anything specific but contributes a lot in build up play. I think he got 15 goals and 9 assists. His link up with both the winger and IF created a lot of chances and the front 3 shared the goals equally really. From my experience if I've wanted the CF to be the main goal scorer I've had the most success with an AM just behind an AF.  

I'm the same as you though and I like the 4-1-2-3 too much.

 

[BlairNo.1]

53 minutes ago, alanfishead said:

After some help and advice from @summatsupeer last week I've got a very similar set up to you in regards to roles and duties apart from I use a BBM instead of CM-A and my winger is set to attack (he got 28 assists last season in all competitions, 18 in PL along with 14 goals). Using this shape got my Newcastle side up to 5th despite my away form being woeful. 

I find the striker doesn't really excel in anything specific but contributes a lot in build up play. I think he got 15 goals and 9 assists. His link up with both the winger and IF created a lot of chances and the front 3 shared the goals equally really. From my experience if I've wanted the CF to be the main goal scorer I've had the most success with an AM just behind an AF.  

I'm the same as you though and I like the 4-1-2-3 too much.

 

Yeah he's been helping me with mine but for some reason I just can't get anything to click.

I've tried so many different variations of the tactic with zero success.

It takes me a good 2-3 hours to get to the first game of the season and then it just falls apart 😂😂. The worst thing is I had a brilliant tactic before the latest update and then it just stopped working afterwards.

I've just given up instead. Had a good run on FM for the past 15 years, maybe time to find a decent box set 😂😂

On a serious note though, cheers for the help anyway guys 👍

[Rashidi]

It’s very simple, stop focusing on your own tactic, fix it in steps.

Can you move the ball consistently from defence through middle to a shot on goal consistently?

No? Adjust role/duties  between defence and midfield. 

Yes? The check quality. How many and type, are enough players involved? Can you adjust it so that you get better quality chances.

Finally look at how you want your striker i volved. Do you want him just focused on scoring goals at the detriment of everything else? Look at AF or CF roles. Do you want him to be a team player? Look at Poacher, DLF, DF?

Do you want him to drop deep and get others involved? F9, TQ

[BlairNo.1]

13 hours ago, Rashidi said:

It’s very simple, stop focusing on your own tactic, fix it in steps.

Can you move the ball consistently from defence through middle to a shot on goal consistently?

No? Adjust role/duties  between defence and midfield. 

Yes? The check quality. How many and type, are enough players involved? Can you adjust it so that you get better quality chances.

Finally look at how you want your striker i volved. Do you want him just focused on scoring goals at the detriment of everything else? Look at AF or CF roles. Do you want him to be a team player? Look at Poacher, DLF, DF?

Do you want him to drop deep and get others involved? F9, TQ

I know it sounds simple and I know you find it straight forward enough, but for some reason I don't.

What's the best way for me to go about it? At the minute I'm trying different things in FM touch as it is quicker than the full game. I know you don't get as much in terms of analysis tools etc.

Also, would you recommend just watching the goals I concede or would you recommend watching a full match?

I really want to crack this and just create a working tactic that I can get into the game with. One of the main problems I have seems to be creating quality chances. I have read somewhere that this could partly be down to my wide players starting so high up the pitch but I would really like to avoid moving away from this shape.

I'd appreciate any pointers you can give or any threads I should refer to.

Thanks

[BlairNo.1]

So I've had another look at the squad and tried to understand what our strengths and weaknesses are.

We are definitely weak at the back, mainly in DL and DC. DR will be fine once Clyne returns. DL and DC will be the main things i look to improve.

I still think that the 4-1-2-3 suits Liverpool and the current squad so I have kept with this. I have done away with the inside forward role and changed this to an AP-A. Mainly because I can utilise both Salah and Coutinho in this role. Mane is going to stay as the W-S and he will be backed up by Chamberlain.

One of the more difficult decisions was the CM roles but I have gone with Carillero behind the AP as I don't want him getting to far forward and using the same space as the AP-A. The other side will have a CM-A getting forward to support the winger and the CF-A.

I have gone with the CF-A as the lone striker as he will be the main goal threat in this team. Not too concerned about him having to drop deeper as I think the players behind him should be able to cover that area.

This is what I have come up with as a base to build from:

Would you have any concerns about the role and duty selection? I may add some team or player instructions to the tactic depending on what I see. I was toying with the idea of a control mentality but figured my team will already be quite high up the pitch with the starting roles and also alot of teams are likely to sit deeper against me.

Any thoughts?

[BlairNo.1]

I've watched back the 8 goals we have conceded in 13 matches upto now. 5 of them I feel could have been avoided by better individual defending from Moreno or Klavan. The others were from set pieces. Upto now in the league things look like below:

Granted, it is only FM touch but it does look promising upto now

[summatsupeer]

I like it, AP-A should attract the ball and he has FB-S and CAR-S supporting him.  Whilst no early threat on that side it could draw the defence to that side the as he comes inside it opens options to play through the W-S, CM-S or FB-A on the defences weak side.  The CF-A as its description says will do all sorts so needs to be smart to see and pick right option.

The right could be open to counters, a DM-D will hold but he and the DCR will need to be mobile to cover that space and deal with fast players in space.  If they can do that then having CAR-S + FB-S should be deepish to be able to cover as the d shifts over.

Does what you see on pitch match with this?

[BlairNo.1]

3 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

I like it, AP-A should attract the ball and he has FB-S and CAR-S supporting him.  Whilst no early threat on that side it could draw the defence to that side the as he comes inside it opens options to play through the W-S, CM-S or FB-A on the defences weak side.  The CF-A as its description says will do all sorts so needs to be smart to see and pick right option.

The right could be open to counters, a DM-D will hold but he and the DCR will need to be mobile to cover that space and deal with fast players in space.  If they can do that then having CAR-S + FB-S should be deepish to be able to cover as the d shifts over.

Does what you see on pitch match with this?

Upto now Firmino seems to be scoring plenty with 18 goals and 9 assists from 28 games.

The DM appears to be staying pretty central with and without the ball.

Crosses do seem to be a problem but with Liverpools defence I suppose that is understandable and will have to be something I sort out through transfers. 

I know i'm only on holiday mode here trying the tactic out but away games do seem to be a problem as I am conceding a lot more. In 10 away games I have scored 20 but conceded 21. Are there any particular changes I could make to tighten things up away from home without losing too much in attack? I was thinking maybe marking tighter may help. I think one of the main problems is all 4 of my full backs have the PPM get forward whenever possible. That could explain a lot

[summatsupeer]

Without knowing why they scored its hard to say.  Whilst you can check where the goal was scored and where the assist came from that can't tell you why they had space to do so.

I wouldn't blindly use tight marking, its not a "defend better" button.  It will make passes to feet harder but open passing lanes and a slow marker get dropped by a run.

If its mostly crosses I'd maybe get the advanced wide players to mark opponents FBs and close them down and tackle harder to try and stop them, though fouls might give them more set piece chances!  Sometimes it the central players out of position or beaten, but sometimes the cross is too good for them to deal with.

[BlairNo.1]

17 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

Without knowing why they scored its hard to say.  Whilst you can check where the goal was scored and where the assist came from that can't tell you why they had space to do so.

I wouldn't blindly use tight marking, its not a "defend better" button.  It will make passes to feet harder but open passing lanes and a slow marker get dropped by a run.

If its mostly crosses I'd maybe get the advanced wide players to mark opponents FBs and close them down and tackle harder to try and stop them, though fouls might give them more set piece chances!  Sometimes it the central players out of position or beaten, but sometimes the cross is too good for them to deal with.

I think the latter sounds like a good option. From what i've seen is done appear that the AMR and AML don't do much to track their man when the ball is the wrong side of them. 

I've also changed the DM to an Anchorman to see if that will strengthen my defence. I'm quite happy to use that role as I don't really want him to do much other than keep things very simple and recycle possession. I'm going to holiday mode again on FM touch and if things seem reasonable then I'll start a save on the full version. That way I'll be able to analyse things much better and make small tweaks if needed.

[BlairNo.1]

I've spent the last few hours starting my new save, sorting my team and scouting etc.

I got to the first game of the season which was at home against Watford. Rather than continue the game blindly and making numerous changes I'm going to analyse the first league game and hopefully you'll be able to assist me.

There were positives in this game but also negatives which I'll post some pictures of. We drew the game 1-1. My goal came from a direct free kick and we also missed a penalty. Watfords goal was a penalty.

This is how we went:

The first things that I noticed in the game is that we had less possession than Watford despite being the home side. We did manage 16 shots, but 10 of then were from long distance. That would suggest that the play is breaking down leaving my players with little option but to shoot.

We did have a good pass completion of 84% but that doesn't really tell me much as we haven't created good quality chances.

I'm not too sure what to make of the pitch map as it doesn't seem to suggest that the ball is staying in one particular area, everything seems quite well spread. Not much in the opposition box though, would you normally expect to see more than this?

My players positional play tells me a few things. The first picture is of my team with the ball. My DM seems to be sat slightly to the left side, could that be because my AML is a playmaker? There is also quite a large gap between the DL and the AML. Also, my AMR looks very isolated and the only real option is to run at the opposition defence. I suppose that is his role anyway but I would prefer him to have a passing option.

From the without ball picture I can see that we would be quite exposed by how advanced the wide midfielder are. Also, the midfield trio do seem very close together. Is that a bad thing?

Below is a picture of where my passes were intercepted.

 

I have had a good look at the passing combinations and the top ones were:

Not much between MCL and MCR which is probably due to the MCR being CM-A.

Also, the MCR to AMR is not in the 6 combinations. Does this show that my MCR is ineffective?

Also, near the bottom of the list is the combinations involving Firmino, both to and from. Again, is he being ineffective in the current setup?

One observation I saw from the match highlights was that Mo Salah (AML) lost the ball several times when he was running at the defence. He didn't really have any options in front of him.

 

So, this is what I have seen. Is there anything i'm missing or more I should be looking for? How to I then identify and make changes to make my tactic more effective? Apologies, I know this is a lot but I want to ensure I'm looking at the right things.

 

Thanks

 

[herne79]

@BlairNo.1

A little while ago I was also messing about with a 4123DM wide with the intention of encouraging assists from through balls rather than other areas (such as crosses) much like yourself.  It worked.

Just for comparison purposes I'll post my basic formation below.  All players are very suited to their given roles.  Ignore the high risk left flank, that's done for a specific purpose and not important here (well it is a bit because it's part of the overall balance in the system but I digress).  Comparing the two systems - especially the front 5 - what do you think the main differences are?  Why does mine do what I intend and yours seemingly struggles?

[BlairNo.1]

2 minutes ago, herne79 said:

@BlairNo.1

A little while ago I was also messing about with a 4123DM wide with the intention of encouraging assists from through balls rather than other areas (such as crosses) much like yourself.  It worked.

Just for comparison purposes I'll post my basic formation below.  All players are very suited to their given roles.  Ignore the high risk left flank, that's done for a specific purpose and not important here (well it is a bit because it's part of the overall balance in the system but I digress).  Comparing the two systems - especially the front 5 - what do you think the main differences are?  Why does mine do what I intend and yours seemingly struggles?

You've got me here :-)

You have support roles on one side and attacking roles on the other whereas I have a mixture of each with and attacking striker. Maybe building up on the right hand side whilst the players on the left attack the space and wait for the pass? I'm probably completely wrong there.

I have just gone back to my previous game though and re-looked at the passing combinations which was quite concerning. It seems that both wide players are good passing options for other players but then they don't seem to have any options for the next ball. The combinations from Salah and Mane were right down near the bottom.

[herne79]

1 minute ago, BlairNo.1 said:

It seems that both wide players are good passing options for other players but then they don't seem to have any options for the next ball.

You have an Advanced Playmaker (attack) at AML.  He'll attract the ball and then what does he do with it?  He'll run with it (Dribble More PI) before trying to make a through ball (More Risky Passes PI).  But to who?  Your striker is probably marked, your winger is too far away across the defensive line and your CM(A) is also over on the right.  He might be able to pass back to the Carrilero, but that's not exactly a through ball however.

Now look at where my AP is and the passing options he has by comparison.  Now I'm not saying for a second you need to put your AP into central midfield, that's not the point.  The point is passing options.  An AP at AML as you have can absolutely work, but he has to have passing options.  So, for example, what would happen if you made a simple change and swapped the positions of your 2 central midfielders?  Might that also help defensively?

One other question - I'm not familiar with how Salah is portrayed in the database but is he a good match for the Advanced Playmaker role?

[Fosse]

@BlairNo.1 Without knowing selection information like injuries and what not it might be a moot point but some of the players picked aren’t conventionally suitable for the role. 

Salah and Milner in particular aren’t typically an AP-A and CM-A respectively, obviously you’re the manager but I think Lallana is probably the best choice for both of those roles if Coutinho isn’t at the club.

[BlairNo.1]

3 minutes ago, herne79 said:

You have an Advanced Playmaker (attack) at AML.  He'll attract the ball and then what does he do with it?  He'll run with it (Dribble More PI) before trying to make a through ball (More Risky Passes PI).  But to who?  Your striker is probably marked, your winger is too far away across the defensive line and your CM(A) is also over on the right.  He might be able to pass back to the Carrilero, but that's not exactly a through ball however.

Now look at where my AP is and the passing options he has by comparison.  Now I'm not saying for a second you need to put your AP into central midfield, that's not the point.  The point is passing options.  An AP at AML as you have can absolutely work, but he has to have passing options.  So, for example, what would happen if you made a simple change and swapped the positions of your 2 central midfielders?  Might that also help defensively?

One other question - I'm not familiar with how Salah is portrayed in the database but is he a good match for the Advanced Playmaker role?

That does make complete sense when you point it out. That would explain why Salah made the most mistakes in the game as he kept running into a wall of players. 

By swapping them over Mane may also have a better passing option on the right side also. I'll give that a try tomorrow for my 2nd game.

Cheers Herne 

[BlairNo.1]

5 minutes ago, Fosse said:

@BlairNo.1 Without knowing selection information like injuries and what not it might be a moot point but some of the players picked aren’t conventionally suitable for the role. 

Salah and Milner in particular aren’t typically an AP-A and CM-A respectively, obviously you’re the manager but I think Lallana is probably the best choice for both of those roles if Coutinho isn’t at the club.

It's a difficult one. I've never successfully managed to build my team which fits Salah, Coutinho and Mane in it. 

My preference on the right side is a winger which suits Mane. 

On the left I would normally go with an inside forward but this time decided to go with the AP-A. Looking at Salahs attributes though he did seem to fit ok in that role. Unfortunately Salah would not be my first choice as Coutinho is injured. Difficult when Liverpool have such an abundance of talent going for forward.

 

Milner will eventually be replaced in the CM role.

[jc577]

@herne79 Herne, do you think this looks decent? The idea is that we have threats from different areas of the pitch, so the AP-s can slip through balls to the CM-a, whilst on the other flank the RPM can do the same for the IF-a. Initially had a FB-s/W-s combo on the right, but i'm aiming to score from through balls and even with WBIB ticked, a winger will still look to cross the ball as per his pi's.

 

@BlairNo.1 Sorry mate, not trying to hijack your thread  Just after a quick bit of advice, hope its cool 

[craiigman]

8 hours ago, BlairNo.1 said:

It's a difficult one. I've never successfully managed to build my team which fits Salah, Coutinho and Mane in it. 

My preference on the right side is a winger which suits Mane. 

On the left I would normally go with an inside forward but this time decided to go with the AP-A. Looking at Salahs attributes though he did seem to fit ok in that role. Unfortunately Salah would not be my first choice as Coutinho is injured. Difficult when Liverpool have such an abundance of talent going for forward.

 

Milner will eventually be replaced in the CM role.

No longer need to fit Coutinho in

[BlairNo.1]

So, I've continued my save tonight for a few games and it's clear to see I have some chance creation issues. Defensively I have been sound. Conceded 4 in 7 and 3 of them were against Palace during a freakish Christian Benteke head fest.

Possession has not been bad but I would prefer it to be higher. Pass completion is the best in the league but all that tells me is that we are good at simple none progressive passes. Something needs to change and I can't help think it's to do with roles and duties rather than the need to go back to adding multiple team instructions.

 

I'm thinking that a control mentality may be better for a team of my quality but will that result in my advanced players being even higher up the pitch doing nothing?

Is the playmaker attracting the ball in the wrong areas and unable to do anything with it?

I'm getting very little return from my striker in terms of his overall involvement and also goals.

Things seem to be all neat and tidy during the games which would explain the high pass completion rate. But then things break down high up the pitch either resulting in the loss of possession or a long shot which is the opposite of what I want.

Help needed please :-)

[vasilli07]

Probably not enough men supporting your striker. AP and winger role are providers first and foremost imo and will look to pass and cross as priority. Why not 1 more IF on one flank?

[Wap92]

52 minutes ago, BlairNo.1 said:

Pass completion is the best in the league but all that tells me is that we are good at simple none progressive passes. Something needs to change and I can't help think it's to do with roles and duties rather than the need to go back to adding multiple team instructions.

Probably because of the Standard mentality, which seems to be very low risk for a team of that quality. Liverpool should be able to play a more positive and free flowing football, I'm not sure you're playing to your strengths there. Not saying that you can't make it work on lower mentalities, but it explains the lack of penetrative passes. The lower the risk, the less forward runs, risky passes, etc.

You can still play possession football on higher mentalities if you use proper TI's. You can still play from the back, ask players to adopt a pass-first mentality rather than dribbling, ask them to work ball into box or roam from positions, which could encourage them to offer themselves more with roaming from their designated positions and then there're also instructions for shorter passing and even retaining possession, if you want to go into extremes.

Maybe it'd be worth trying a Very Fluid shape if you want to use Standard mentality. The risk will still be balanced, but passes should be easier to find with more players involved in transitions. Liverpool should also have good enough creativity and mental attributes for it.

[summatsupeer]

On reflection, having the AP-A on one wing and a W-S on the doesn't really make sense.  If the AP-A attracts the ball and the winger staying wide right the most he is likely to get involved is a back post cross but who's going to cross it or play is switched to his flank which again is less likely with a AP attracting the ball.   Then there's the FB-A on same flank as the W-S, so its quite cross heavy but who's going to be on the end of them?  Why have such a wide flank when your playmaker is on the far side?

If the W-S is staying wider, the AP drops to collect the ball and CM-A starts deeper, who's near a CF-A who's playing mostly on the shoulder of defenders?  Especially when its Firmino with poor quickness.

I like the front 3 in @herne79 example, I think you could use a IF-A instead of RMD and it would fit the Liverpool team.  You can flip the tactic so the IF-S is on left with Coutinho and Salah is IF-A on right OR mane on left as IF-A and whoever can play as IF-S on right.  You just need your CM pair and FBs to support them, maybe have both as WB-S?

[BlairNo.1]

Thanks for the responses.

Would something like this make more sense then from an attacking point of view?

That would give me the DLP-S and the W-S as the providers. I would then have the CM-A and the IF-A trying to get on the end of things. The CF-A would do a bit of both.

With the control mentality that obviously increases width, closing down and the defensive line. The fluid shape will bring my players closer together keeping things nice and tidy. 

This would probably allow for a bit more creativity which is something that may benefit the players I have.

[Cap'nRad]

If you don't mind tweaking the formation a bit, moving the dm to central midfield will really benefit the winger and the spacing of the central midfielders.

[summatsupeer]

Now only your CF-A is looking to play risky passes, most of your penetration will come from dribbling and quite a few crosses.

I don't think its getting the best out of those players. Coutinho I think is better starting deeper rather than pushing high and looking to run behind.  mane and salah have better quickness to dribble past defenders or make off the ball runs behind them.  If the IF-A is on the left then I think mane is the man for the job, if its on the right then salah.

I think CF-S might combine better with the IF-A and CM-A.  Having all 3 on attack could make things a bit static with everyone pushed up plus the W-S is another vertical player.

[BlairNo.1]

30 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

Now only your CF-A is looking to play risky passes, most of your penetration will come from dribbling and quite a few crosses.

I don't think its getting the best out of those players. Coutinho I think is better starting deeper rather than pushing high and looking to run behind.  mane and salah have better quickness to dribble past defenders or make off the ball runs behind them.  If the IF-A is on the left then I think mane is the man for the job, if its on the right then salah.

I think CF-S might combine better with the IF-A and CM-A.  Having all 3 on attack could make things a bit static with everyone pushed up plus the W-S is another vertical player.

God I hate this game...... Try again tomorrow 

[yonko]

I would have Coutinho as IF-S, Mane/Salah as W-A, Dolberg as CF-S and Gaya on Attack duty. That would a nice way to stager your attacking play and have multiple ways to create chances.

If you want to use both Mane and Salah on each wing, have Mane on the left as W-S with a BBM next to him, Coutinho as AP-A on the same side as Salah (W-A) and you can have Dolberg as CF-A. 

I would teach Coutinho "try through balls" PPM and Dolberg "comes deep to get ball". I also like to teach as many players as possible to have "plays one-twos" as PPM.

[Rashidi]

On 13/01/2018 at 00:38, BlairNo.1 said:

What's the best way for me to go about it? At the minute I'm trying different things in FM touch as it is quicker than the full game. I know you don't get as much in terms of analysis tools etc.

I just watch my highlights on extended. If I see no highlights of my side which end with a good chance at goal, I try to isolate where we are breaking down.

Its just about looking at transitions. Most people who can’t identify them usually don’t know how their side will defend or attack. It’s a good exercise to practice.

[Rashidi]

Gotta admit when I am looking at your system, I struggle to picture how the goals are coming. Coutinho is wasted as an IF and you have him attacking space alone which you aren’t doing anything to create, so he will run into cul-de-sacs. Then you have a CF on attack duty doing things on his own too, so struggling to creat chances will seem very apparent.

When I made my 4123 with Ajax and Kingstonian, there were subtle differences between the two but both looked at exploiting the right flank. Here you don’t exploit any flank.

I am actually a big fan of the Mezzala AP(s) combo on one flank because with those two close to each other I hardly ever lose the ball there.. By controlling one flank I can actually unleash the other where I either have a W(a) or an IF(a) I could even leave them on support against weaker teams and unleash the fullback who is almost alway a WB on attack. Then I have options.

 

[BlairNo.1]

34 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

Gotta admit when I am looking at your system, I struggle to picture how the goals are coming. Coutinho is wasted as an IF and you have him attacking space alone which you aren’t doing anything to create, so he will run into cul-de-sacs. Then you have a CF on attack duty doing things on his own too, so struggling to creat chances will seem very apparent.

When I made my 4123 with Ajax and Kingstonian, there were subtle differences between the two but both looked at exploiting the right flank. Here you don’t exploit any flank.

I am actually a big fan of the Mezzala AP(s) combo on one flank because with those two close to each other I hardly ever lose the ball there.. By controlling one flank I can actually unleash the other where I either have a W(a) or an IF(a) I could even leave them on support against weaker teams and unleash the fullback who is almost alway a WB on attack. Then I have options.

 

@Rashidi So perhaps I could have the AML as the AP-S as that would suit Coutinho. Behind him have the Mezzala role. Would that also be a support role?

On the right side I could have a W-A when it's Mane and an IF-A when it's Salah. 

Would the other CM role be ok with something like a Carillero or just a bog standard CM-S? Or would you be looking at something more attacking?

If I have the players on the left providing service would it be best to leave the striker as a CF-A or CF-S? The only thing that puts me off the support role is the tendency for long shots.

 

[BlairNo.1]

3 hours ago, yonko said:

I would have Coutinho as IF-S, Mane/Salah as W-A, Dolberg as CF-S and Gaya on Attack duty. That would a nice way to stager your attacking play and have multiple ways to create chances.

If you want to use both Mane and Salah on each wing, have Mane on the left as W-S with a BBM next to him, Coutinho as AP-A on the same side as Salah (W-A) and you can have Dolberg as CF-A. 

I would teach Coutinho "try through balls" PPM and Dolberg "comes deep to get ball". I also like to teach as many players as possible to have "plays one-twos" as PPM.

@yonko Would it not be better having Salah on the left side in a winger role due to him being left footed? Having Salah on the right as a winger would see him keep cutting inside anyway due to his PPM. Might not be a bad thing though

[summatsupeer]

I haven't actually looked at Coutinho for a while, I did not realize his tackling was 11 and positioning 13 (might be different from start as i'm 3 season in).  He also works hard and his aggression/bravery isn't terrible so i'd play him in a AP-A role in CM so I can get Mane and Salah on the field.  I'd use IF-A and IF-S and let them attack behind the CF-S with Coutinho dictating play from deep.  You could make a mirrored version of the tactic so depending on which players your using you could flip which side is more attacking OR flip it because you spot a vulnerability in the opposition such as a defensively weak or very attacking FB.   I'd just make sure you have a good ball winner to do the dirty work and play it simple for Coutinho.

[Keyzer Soze]

In my current save with Benfica I’ve been testing the MEZ+AP mention by @Rashidi, and it’s probably the best way to pair up the MEZ with someone playing in the attacking midfield wing.

So atm playing like this:

               DLF(a)

AP(s)                             IF(a)

        MEZ(s)      CM(s)

                DM(s)

WB(a)    CD(d)   CD(d).   WB(s)

                   SK(d)

The IF duty is the one I change a lot during the game, depending how is performing. In same games playing with a support duty works better, other games it’s better with a attacking duty.

At first I was playing with a DLP in the midfield, but I think the CM works beter because allows that the MEZ shine more.

[BlairNo.1]

3 hours ago, Keyzer Soze said:

In my current save with Benfica I’ve been testing the MEZ+AP mention by @Rashidi, and it’s probably the best way to pair up the MEZ with someone playing in the attacking midfield wing.

So atm playing like this:

               DLF(a)

AP(s)                             IF(a)

        MEZ(s)      CM(s)

                DM(s)

WB(a)    CD(d)   CD(d).   WB(s)

                   SK(d)

The IF duty is the one I change a lot during the game, depending how is performing. In same games playing with a support duty works better, other games it’s better with a attacking duty.

At first I was playing with a DLP in the midfield, but I think the CM works beter because allows that the MEZ shine more.

I've actually gone with a very similar lineup to this.

I am flicking between IF-A and W-A depending on if Salah or Mane are playing. Coutinho occupies the left side. Also using a carillero as opposed to the CM-S and my DM is on defend as opposed to support.

It's something to start from anyway and then I'll see how it goes from there.

[yonko]

10 hours ago, BlairNo.1 said:

@yonko Would it not be better having Salah on the left side in a winger role due to him being left footed? Having Salah on the right as a winger would see him keep cutting inside anyway due to his PPM. Might not be a bad thing though

Where does it say that you have to play a winger on the same side as his stronger foot? I love using wide attackers who cut inside but playing as Winger role. The combination of role (+set instructions) and their PPM to cut inside makes for a nice hybrid. 

Do not think limitations, think possibilities.