This time for real

[Guest]

On 25/03/2017 at 13:50, looping said:

Is there anything wrong in my thought process before I go deep analyzing a match?

The one thing that stands out is that you've not mentioned your players, what have you done to consider if they are suitable for the position/role you're asking them to play?

[Argonaut]

Is AC Milan the team you support? I always find that FM is easiest to master when using one's own team as a guide. I tried FM17 as Spurs over the weekend and cleaned house with everyone, just setting up a tactic the way Spurs play in real life. Not to say that AC Milan is any good lately, but I still found this approach to work when Spurs were decidedly 5/6 in the table. I don't know Serie A, but just try playing how AC Milan play, unless you have a better idea. It doesn't seem that you do (so far).

It may not even be a tactical problem. One way I get a huge advantage over the AI is proper squad management. Rotating during cup games, manually resting players when there are midweek games, etc. Definitely gives you an edge when you have 97% condition guys going up against 80% condition guys.

[looping]

To be honest, I think there is nothing else to say. At some point, I start conceding an outrageous amount of goals and anything I try fails. Everything has been covered again and again. This is only going in circles. As somebody said, spotting issues is completely up to me and if I can't I simply can't play this game. I won't post asking for help any more until something changes.

Just a couple of things:

- Thanks to everybody who attempted to help. Genuine advice: many times I've been said that I was dismissing advice. That's not true. It's simply that I go two steps behind advice given so I most of the times I didn't really understand (even now, many things you say I simply don't find the logic). I'm doing things that I don't understand just because somebody here said it. This is the real situation. If anybody felt frustrated for that reason, I didn't do it on purpose. I felt aggravated sometimes for that reason because I was trying to follow advice that I actually didn't understand (and don't understand yet in many cases).

- It's a fact that I put a lot of effort and I can't play the game. I haven't played a real save with fm16 fm17.  This is crazy.

 

 

 

[tyro]

I didn't go through this whole thread and I saw lots of good advice given.

I am no expert but from my limited viewpoint - I don't go into details with all the perplexities of the match engine.

You have no strikers. You play counter. I looked at your videos and your guys simply take too long and lose the ball before creating anything. I see your stats and you have shots but non on target. If I see this with my teams, I know something is wrong in the way I attack. I think in your case you simply have no one who actually will attempt or finish good chances.

If you don't know what you are doing and you are struggling go back to basics. Look at what players you have now and what roles and positions they are good in. Find your key players and build the system around them. Get a formation where they can be in their preferred position and use their preferred role. Then use the others to complement them. Get a balance between the duties and make sure there's movement and space so you can attempt to score. 

Don't go crazy with changes. Sometimes there's a small tweak that will make it work. I think that you are playing to passively with a team like AC Milan. Another thing to note, once you get into a downward spiral, morale takes over and it makes no difference what you do, they will not play up to their potential. Do some friendlies and get your guys firing. Play against a no-name team and get the confidence of your players up - let them score 3 or 4 goals, so they realize they still got it.

Just keep it simple. Sometimes the stats can tell you a lot already. Don't go for complicated systems if you don't know what you are doing. Some of the guys here can play with 10 GK and still score 8 but most of us can't. Just take a step back and look at things logically with common sense. Look at your players. Are they fast? Do they pass well? Are they technical? Small or tall? Strong or weak? Set up and play to your strengths. Who's gonna score? Obviously the guy who is best suited to do that. Who will create for him? They guy with the most vision and flair and passing, and decisions. Get those set up. The rest will follow along. When you have set it up, what do you expect will happen? Who will move where? Will that create spaces and opportunities? Will someone be in a position to create a chance? Will someone be on the other end to receive?

Keep it simple. Believe in your players and your system.

[looping]

12 minutes ago, tyro said:

I didn't go through this whole thread and I saw lots of good advice given.

I am no expert but from my limited viewpoint - I don't go into details with all the perplexities of the match engine.

You have no strikers. You play counter. I looked at your videos and your guys simply take too long and lose the ball before creating anything. I see your stats and you have shots but non on target. If I see this with my teams, I know something is wrong in the way I attack. I think in your case you simply have no one who actually will attempt or finish good chances.

If you don't know what you are doing and you are struggling go back to basics. Look at what players you have now and what roles and positions they are good in. Find your key players and build the system around them. Get a formation where they can be in their preferred position and use their preferred role. Then use the others to complement them. Get a balance between the duties and make sure there's movement and space so you can attempt to score. 

Don't go crazy with changes. Sometimes there's a small tweak that will make it work. I think that you are playing to passively with a team like AC Milan. Another thing to note, once you get into a downward spiral, morale takes over and it makes no difference what you do, they will not play up to their potential. Do some friendlies and get your guys firing. Play against a no-name team and get the confidence of your players up - let them score 3 or 4 goals, so they realize they still got it.

Just keep it simple. Sometimes the stats can tell you a lot already. Don't go for complicated systems if you don't know what you are doing. Some of the guys here can play with 10 GK and still score 8 but most of us can't. Just take a step back and look at things logically with common sense. Look at your players. Are they fast? Do they pass well? Are they technical? Small or tall? Strong or weak? Set up and play to your strengths. Who's gonna score? Obviously the guy who is best suited to do that. Who will create for him? They guy with the most vision and flair and passing, and decisions. Get those set up. The rest will follow along. When you have set it up, what do you expect will happen? Who will move where? Will that create spaces and opportunities? Will someone be in a position to create a chance? Will someone be on the other end to receive?

Keep it simple. Believe in your players and your system.

 

On 25/3/2017 at 14:50, looping said:

gk. -

cb. I could use a ball playing defender but I don't see a major difference, in my experience (I've tried)

fb. I said I want one of them overlapping, so let's say the right fb on attakc the left on support.

Central midfielders. It's good combination holder-creator-runner. Holder: cm-de (I can use also a dlp-de or even support). Runner: cm-su/cm-at/bbm. Creator: AP-su/ap-at, rpm, dlp-su. I'll start with cm-de, dlp-su and cm-at. cm-de in the middle so he can cover both flanks, dlp on the right and cm-at on the left so he can run besides my winger.

Wide players. I want one to provide width, so a winger in the left flank and an IF on the right, so he cut inside and open space for my fb on attack.

Striker. I have a lone striker who can get easily isolated so I'm going to use a df-su but I could use: cf-su, dlf-su. Even f9 or trequartista. I use df-su because my strikers don't have technicall skills.

My fb on attack is Abate/De Sciglio (both get forward whenever posible and have the right attributes)

Central midfielders

Holder: Krannevitter (one of the best dm in the hole game)

Creator: Saponara/Bonaventura. Passing, vision... Even try killer balls.

Inside Forward: Bernardeschi (left footed cuts inside from both flanks)

Winger: Berardi left footed, runs wide down the left). Quick, good crossing, off the ball.. 

Who's gonna score? Obviously the guy who is best suited to do that. Belotti.

..

 

Unfortunately, I'm already doing this. Doing it wrong, obviously, but this is the best I can do. Not enough, it seems.

[Craigus89]

And how many games have you watched in full WITHOUT CHANGING ANYTHING to know that your system with those players in the chosen roles will work?

Can I make a suggestion. Start a new save with AC Milan, you know the players well by now. This is simply a test save, set-up your chosen tactic. Don't rush through the pre-season too fast, do what you normally would in terms of staff recruitment, setting up training, player management etc. Arrange 10 pre-season friendlies against very small reputation teams with your tactic set-up CHANGING NOTHING IN ANY OF THOSE FRIENDLIES to get the players morale up and tactical familiarity nice and high. Then play 4 or 5 Serie A matches with the same tactic CHANGING NOTHING IN THOSE GAMES EITHER.  Subs are fine BUT DON'T EVEN CHANGE THE ROLES AND DUTIES. Don't worry what the results are in these games, allow them to run through on 'commentary only' if you are tempted to tweak things while watching on full/comprehensive. If you do that then watch them back afterwards.

Now, just observe what your players are doing, where are they positioned, are they doing what you want them to do? You will start to see patterns emerge and also see the same things happening over and over, whether good or bad. Who has the most touches in your team, who is making the most tackles, is anyone being lazy, if so is that because of their attributes or because of their role selection?

This will hopefully get you started down the right route of establishing an understanding of ONE system, how the players interact with each other, which players are key to having a good team performance. You will also see quite easily where it is falling down.

Then, I suggest you report back here what you are seeing.

Sorry for the bold and all caps, but these are the crucial bits and from your previous responses this is what doesn't seem to be getting through.

EDIT: If you actually do this I will happily watch those 4 or 5 Serie A games if you upload the PKM's and give you some advice and try to point to some specific things. But I'm not going to watch any old game as there are far too many variables in your current save.

EDIT 2:  Can I suggest a more 'normal' formation though, nothing strikerless, maybe a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-1-2-3 wide, something like that. Post a screenshot first if you like, or feel free to PM me.

[Kung]

I soo feel the same as looping, and recognice alot of myself in him, these posts was a eye opener for me, so what i did was, startet touch, got a team that suites m formation ) im stevenage, but took control of Middlesborough in touch. Set up a tactic for boro that would suit stevenage and plugged and played, tweaked some roles, and when i was happy i went back to my stevenage save, i decided that i will KISS and only basically change the risk / reward factor, the mentality, worked a treat for me so far, i have as a policy to NOT change setup, keeping a somewhat consistent starting 11, if i go more attacking i drop defensive line, a bit, i use mainly 2 shouts through the games, shorter passing and play out of defense, i notice the team are performing WAY better than it did before.

Also i think its self believe that plays a a big part, believe in the tactic and the players, stick to it long enough and the results will become better, it sure did for me.

Ofc there are things that i feel that i can learn and improve with my tactic,but for  now im doing decent, winning more than losing, so as i learn more about players and tactic i might start add / remove shouts.

 

that is my tips for you, hope it helps

 

  

[looping]

On 28/3/2017 at 14:51, Craigus89 said:

And how many games have you watched in full WITHOUT CHANGING ANYTHING to know that your system with those players in the chosen roles will work?

Can I make a suggestion. Start a new save with AC Milan, you know the players well by now. This is simply a test save, set-up your chosen tactic. Don't rush through the pre-season too fast, do what you normally would in terms of staff recruitment, setting up training, player management etc. Arrange 10 pre-season friendlies against very small reputation teams with your tactic set-up CHANGING NOTHING IN ANY OF THOSE FRIENDLIES to get the players morale up and tactical familiarity nice and high. Then play 4 or 5 Serie A matches with the same tactic CHANGING NOTHING IN THOSE GAMES EITHER.  Subs are fine BUT DON'T EVEN CHANGE THE ROLES AND DUTIES. Don't worry what the results are in these games, allow them to run through on 'commentary only' if you are tempted to tweak things while watching on full/comprehensive. If you do that then watch them back afterwards.

Now, just observe what your players are doing, where are they positioned, are they doing what you want them to do? You will start to see patterns emerge and also see the same things happening over and over, whether good or bad. Who has the most touches in your team, who is making the most tackles, is anyone being lazy, if so is that because of their attributes or because of their role selection?

This will hopefully get you started down the right route of establishing an understanding of ONE system, how the players interact with each other, which players are key to having a good team performance. You will also see quite easily where it is falling down.

Then, I suggest you report back here what you are seeing.

Sorry for the bold and all caps, but these are the crucial bits and from your previous responses this is what doesn't seem to be getting through.

EDIT: If you actually do this I will happily watch those 4 or 5 Serie A games if you upload the PKM's and give you some advice and try to point to some specific things. But I'm not going to watch any old game as there are far too many variables in your current save.

EDIT 2:  Can I suggest a more 'normal' formation though, nothing strikerless, maybe a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-1-2-3 wide, something like that. Post a screenshot first if you like, or feel free to PM me.

I know I sent you a PM but, to be honest, I don't want to waste your time. Best minds here tried to help me but nothing clicks and I've totally lost interest in the game after 1 year and a half of constant failure.

 

Just to answer your questions because I really appreciate your offer and in another moment I would follow your suggestions for sure:

I have watched hundreds (even thousands) of matches in full without changing anything to know how my tactic works. Check any of my previous threads. You'll find deep (and probably mistaken) analysis.

I'm fed up of test saves. I haven't played a single real save in fm 16/17. I'm fed up of this.

When I watch a match I observe what my players are doing, their positioning... And I can say if I like or not. For sure mistakenly.

Who has the most touches in your team, who is making the most tackles, is anyone being lazy, if so is that because of their attributes or because of their role selection? These are exactly the things I pay attention to (among others). I can tell you in any match the answer to this. For sure mistakenly.

I can give you a detailed (even poethical, like someone said) description of how I want my team to play. Even with different formations. In fact, this 532 was just a desperate last attempt.

 

I sticked to one formation for more than one year (442). Someone said I did a remarkable job painting myself into a corner. Maybe impolite but probably true.

This is just going in circles. Months ago, my problem was that I was playing the same all the matches so I was suggested to watch matches and tweak. Now it's the opposite.

I know what I have to do. I have to watch matches, identify the flow of the game and apply small changes if they are needed.

Simply, I don't know how to do it and after 16 months I can surely say this is a waste of time for you all and me. I'm very bad at this, a totally lost case. There is no reason why to keep trying when there is nothing else to try. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Kuchiki]

Well, it's actually entertaining for me to see someone struggling to play this game successfully (by your own expectations), so I encourage you to keep at it. I think there is also a divide on this forum between long term players who find the game easy and others who find it difficult. I myself and I am sure many others can't get to grip with the match engine and endeavor to improve ourselves to master this game/simulation and it is by no means easy unless perhaps you're managing a top side and build an exceptional squad. What I would like to say is without people putting posts up trying to improve their game then it will be less likely that helpful posts on how we can improve will be available and still relevant. A lot has been said about your threads going in circles and you not heeding the advice given but I personally believe that it is better that certain threads remain alive still in the hope that we can improve and I do not feel that someone asking for help would deliberately disregard the advice given. Please continue to play the game although maybe lower your expectations and attempt some of the advice given, I look forward to seeing any potential results.

[looping]

1 hour ago, Kuchiki said:

you not heeding the advice given

If you give me one precise, concrete and quoted advice that I didn't follow I'll try it and play again. A lie repeated often enough becomes accepted as truth but it's actually false that I dismiss advice.

One example. Just one.

[Kuchiki]

Please read more carefully I have not accused you of not heeding the advice given, I have said that other people have said about you not heeding the advice given,

Quoting Rashidi: I don't think you are getting what Barside and what any of us are asking you to do. 

Quoting Craigus89: So you aren't listening to the advice given to you then? Seeing as you are rambling so will I...

As for your comment 'A lie repeated often enough becomes accepted as truth but it's actually false that I dismiss advice. ' This sounds as if you are getting defensive I'm trying to support you and encourage you to continue to improve so I myself can improve. 

To answer your question though you didn't follow the last piece of advice from Craigus89 but instead dismissed him.

[looping]

3 minutes ago, Kuchiki said:

Please read more carefully I have not accused you of not heeding the advice given, I have said that other people have said about you not heeding the advice given,

Quoting Rashidi: I don't think you are getting what Barside and what any of us are asking you to do. 

Quoting Craigus89: So you aren't listening to the advice given to you then? Seeing as you are rambling so will I...

As for your comment 'A lie repeated often enough becomes accepted as truth but it's actually false that I dismiss advice. ' This sounds as if you are getting defensive I'm trying to support you and encourage you to continue to improve so I myself can improve. 

To answer your question though you didn't follow the last piece of advice from Craigus89 but instead dismissed him.

Sorry, english is not my native language so I didn't understand what you said.

This is an additional problem with what other people say about me not heeding advice.

[aderow]

Looping something I've noticed is you change too many things when something goes wrong. When you do that it is very difficult to know what is actually helping or hurting you and why. Best advice I can give you is to change one thing and what effect it has then go from there.

You don't have to do that in your main save. You can make a test save to improve your tactics.

[looping]

I don't know why I try.

 

 

[looping]

I know I've tried many times in the past and this may sound repetitive but I will try again because 

On 1/4/2017 at 20:24, Kuchiki said:

Well, it's actually entertaining for me to see someone struggling to play this game successfully (by your own expectations), so I encourage you to keep at it. I think there is also a divide on this forum between long term players who find the game easy and others who find it difficult. I myself and I am sure many others can't get to grip with the match engine and endeavor to improve ourselves to master this game/simulation and it is by no means easy unless perhaps you're managing a top side and build an exceptional squad. What I would like to say is without people putting posts up trying to improve their game then it will be less likely that helpful posts on how we can improve will be available and still relevant. A lot has been said about your threads going in circles and you not heeding the advice given but I personally believe that it is better that certain threads remain alive still in the hope that we can improve and I do not feel that someone asking for help would deliberately disregard the advice given. Please continue to play the game although maybe lower your expectations and attempt some of the advice given, I look forward to seeing any potential results.

 

In addition, I have implemented some changes in the tactic that may produce different results.

In this past thread, I think I was on the right track until my usual problems (start conceding an outrageous amount of goals) appeared. So what I'm going to do is basically the same and when the problems start I will stop and I won't play until I have a clear idea of what I'm going to change and why. Then I'll play one match and analyze it, one by one.

First off: 4-4-2 is inalienable. Not because I want to paint myself into a corner but because I need to know how my system works and I think I know how my 4-4-2 works exactly. I think this tactic can provide width (by its own nature) and good movement on and off the ball.

I've read all the threads I opened before (again). I have to say there are contradictions in advice given so if my initial tactic is obviously off for some reason, ask first and I will explain (if I don't in this post) why I made the decision.

All I wrote is based on advice given.

I'm open to change anything, saving the heart of my tactic.

 

First of all, How I want to play?

There is a world of difference between a formation on the chalkboard and how you want players performing on the pitch so what I'm going to do is to post how I want my players to defend and how I want my players to attack.

As a consequence, one of the first things I'll pay attention to is my team's positioning on and off the ball so I'll can easily spot if my players are doing what I want them to do.

- Defend

Make your football formation with this11.com

There is an obvious weakness: despite some players may know how drop strikers to defend, I don't know how to do it so I'll have 2 players upfront that won't contribute in defending. For that reason, I'll save up my sleeve the option to involve one of them. To do that I can: a) use man marking b) Drop one of them to AM strata c) Learn how to make both drop deep to defend.

Another important point is the screening offered by my cm. This is something I struggle to spot so I'll need help here.

- Attack

Draw your soccer tactics with this11.com

Not rocket science. Two traditional centerbacks, right back holding position, left back overlapping, two central midfielders: one more attacking the other holding, a winger on the right, a midfielder narrowing on the left, and 2 strikers: one dropping deep and the other pushing forward.

I know it's difficult to make one of the strikers to drop deep  https://community.sigames.com/topic/364527-developing-my-4-4-2/ but I don't want my striker to act as a midfielder. I just want him to play a bit deeper than his partner and with his back to the goal. If I dropped him to Am strata he would be playing with his face to the goal and that's not what I want. Let's see how it goes.

 

Roles and duties

Goalie - Goalkeeper. Again, just a plain old fashioned 'keeper. No need for sweeper keepers as I don't plan on playing with a particularly high line.

Centre Backs - Central Defender (defend) x 2. Nothing fancy here. They just need to defend and pass the ball to the keeper, fullbacks or midfield. No need for risk taking ball playing defenders or a stopper/cover combination.

Right Sided Fullback - Primarily defensive, he needs to get up the left flank to provide support behind the ball. 

Left Sided Fullback -  He needs to provide overlapping runs and decent support for my left wing. 

Left Sided Central Midfielder - Central Midfielder (defend). The midfield destroyer. The intention here is for someone to actively get in the face of the opposition midfield to break up attacks.

Right Sided Central Midfielder - Central Midfielder (support). My runner and creator.  i don't want magnets because they can be easily outplayed by man marking so I won't use playmakers.

Right Sided Midfielder- Wide midfielder (attack). I want them to run, dribble and cross. I'm not using a winger role? Well, there are 2 reasons: first, because a wm is more defensively responsible than a winger and a winger stays wide and I want my right midfielder to be a goal threat so he can finish crosses coming from the other side.

Left Sided Midfielder - Wide midfielder (support). I want him to narrow and open space for my left sided fullback (attack) and feed my advanced striker from behind. I could use a WP but i don't want magnets because they can be easily outplayed by man marking.

Right Sided Striker - Deep Lying Forward (support). The striker that I want to provide a link to midfield. I want him to hold up the ball, play with his back to the goal, try risky passes and be a goal threat finishing crosses. I could use a TM but, again, i don't want magnets.

Left Sided Striker - Advanced Forward. This is the spearhead of the attack, and I want him to be primarily goal focussed.

* @Hunter

 

Roles/duties on the right side are based on this https://community.sigames.com/topic/396566-how-do-people-play-this-game/ despite one of the moderators told me in the past to swap striker roles. I don't want to point a finger at anybody so I won't quote it but you left me no other choice to show you all how strictly I've tried to follow advice given as far as my understanding allows me to.

 

Shape and mentality

Shape -  Shape is about creative freedom and space. Structured shapes increase space and reduce creative freedom. Fluid shapes the opposite. With fluid shapes more players involved in transitions. Shape redistributes the risk, this means that on structured shapes, you tend to see your own attacking duty players playing more riskier football than your backline. I'll leave it on flexible because, even being shape situational, I need an starting point and this is neutral.

Mentality - Mentality is about risk, so it is something it's going to change depending on the situation. To start, I'll use counter mentality, basically because I think it's going to be the mentality that best suit most of the matches, but I want to manage risk via mentality changing it during matches. I'll use counter mentality, but that doesn't mean I want to play counterattacking. I won't complain if counterattacks are triggered but that is not the main plan but I only use counter because it's the lowest of the normal mentalities.

Shape and mentality are situational so I'll change them depending on the situation.

 

Team instructions

 I will only use TI if they are needed. From what I have now, I get 2 conclusions: a) Counter mentality has direct passing at back and I  don't want to hoof the ball if there is no need to and b) 442 creates big spaces and potential gaps between players. For these reasons, I will use 2 TI, Play out the defense and Push higher up, so I will counteract direct passing at back and space between defense and midfield will be reduced.

That doesn't mean I can't change them, remove one or both, add one or two, but again, I need an starting point.

 

Player instructions

- Goalies can waste silly amounts of possession by just hoofing it up the pitch. I tell him to:

Distribute to Centre Backs

Roll It Out

Slow Pace Down

- Fullbacks. I don't want them to hoof the ball nor I want them to dribble in deep positions so I tell them to:

Fewer Risky Passes

Dribble less

- Right Sided Midfielder.  Wide midfielder (attack). I want them to run, dribble and cross so I'll tell him to:

Run wide with ball

Dribble more

Cross more often

- Left Sided Midfielder. Wide midfielder (support). I want him to narrow and open space for my left sided fullback (attack) and feed my advanced striker from behind so I'll tell him to:

Cut inside with ball

Sit narrower

More risky passes

Roam from position

Basically, I reproduced a WP but without the magnet effect of a playmaker.

- Right Sided Central Midfielder. Central Midfielder (support). My runner and creator, so I'll tell him:

More risky passes

- Left Sided Central Midfielder. My destroyer, so I'll tell him:

Fewer risky passes

Pass it shorter

Dribble less

- Deep lying forward. I don't want him to make much forward runs to link with midfield so:

Hold position

 

The team

For this save, I've chosen Valencia. I have to admit I sold almost all my players and I have an almost total new squad, so I expect some initial problems due to this circumstance but I also needed transfers to find suitable players.

Goalie 

I need a better GK but I have no money at this moment. I've spent everything on the rest of the team.

Centre Backs

A good couple. I'll tell Llorente to forget his ppm

Right Sided Fullback 

I'll tell him to forget his ppm because this is not what I want from him.

 

Left Sided Fullback - 

Good attributes, he gets forward and runs wide.

Left Sided Central Midfielder

Perfect. Good to see he plays short simple passes.

Right Sided Central Midfielder

Nice. I'll teach him to try killer balls. Maybe a bit weak defensively (Concentration, positioning).

Right Sided Midfielder

I may sign a better better but I have no money. A bit concerned if he huges the line he won't be inside the box to finish crosses.

 

Left Sided Midfielder

Very good player. Left footed avoid using weaker foot so he may have problems cutting inside from left flank, where he is going to play.

 

Right Sided Striker

Not bad attributes and perfect ppms

 

Left Sided Striker

 

Great striker and the common cause of all my problems: I can't make him score regularly.

Never, in any save.

 

Final tactic

 

Before I start playing matches, do you find anything fundamentally wrong?

 

 

[difran8]

Sounds pretty good. Only issue i see is the DLF(s) on the right. When you try to transition there will be a huge gap on the left side with the AF zooming forward and the left pair of midfielders won't have anyone close to pass to. I understand you have your reasons for leaving this space open (probably for the ML to attack it). Also on the right: CM(S) and DLF(s) will look to occupy the same space. Here you must have thought they will connect better if you help them connect.

Also, about PI. You can try a few games without any to see if the players accomplish their tasks alone. I feel you want to influence every.single.move and you get lost trying to micromanage pitch actions

Just try to have every broad area of the pitch covered. That right midfielder, for example, may be more inclined to dribble if he has loads of space available, without you specifically telling him to do so.

[Rashidi]

4 hours ago, looping said:

Right Sided Fullback - Primarily defensive, he needs to get up the left flank to provide support behind the ball. 

So why are you playing him on support, the fullback on defend duty will do a good job too. Just because he is on defend does not mean that he will always stay back. He will support and take part in final third transitions only if you have secured that side of the pitch,

 

4 hours ago, looping said:

He needs to provide overlapping runs and decent support for my left wing

You have opted to use a FB(A) whose primary purpose is to attack and secondary purpose is to provide support. Here again, he will stop providing support the moment you enter the midfield consolidation phase. So the question for you to answer for yourself is this:

Do I want him to overlap only when we have control of midfield? = FB(S)

Do I want him to go down the flank even if we don't have control? = FB(A)

 

Most 442s are fairly basic to set up, you need to decide how you want to control the flanks and then you need to decide how you are going to penetrate the Golden Zone in front of their two defenders.  I am not one to tell people exactly what to do, because then I make them play like me. It's far better if I offer advice and let them figure out their own style. This way they end up making their own systems that are strong. What you need to do is figure out how you are consistently going to control the Golden Zone. This is the area in front of the 2 CDs of the opposition, and this makes the 442 the most challenging basic formation for most people to master. Good luck

[Svenc]

4 hours ago, Rashidi said:

So why are you playing him on support, the fullback on defend duty will do a good job too. Just because he is on defend does not mean that he will always stay back. He will support and take part in final third transitions only if you have secured that side of the pitch,

Hey Rash, not to derail this, but has this seen a more recent overhaul or is that just a semantic misunderstanding? Defend duty FBs at best would previously push up slightly if that wasn't a risk and if the guy in front of his was without support and risked losing the ball, on the very rare occasion, after which he would immediately drop back again (basically the old runs from deep=never). In general, not at all though. The original inception of defend duties was/is players holding their position, never getting much involved. Thus, with both FBs on defend as the AI sometimes has it at its more defensive, play would be more naturally prone to channel through the middle too, as in the vid below.

The exception prior would be a PPM/personal trait linking the players to forward runs. In the EPL they're common-place, there's entire squads where you can't even field a natural FB without them getting some involved by the virtue of their PPMs. In Germany, not at all. As stuff has been tweaked before, all very well possible -- in very old iterations you could make both full backs stay perfectly in line with the CBs, never pushing up an inch. Though SI may watch to not chop around too much, as in some areas this appears to get more convoluted rather than become more accessible (especially considering that in the role/duty descriptions it says the player would generally stay back).

Thanks!
 

 

[looping]

6 hours ago, Rashidi said:

So why are you playing him on support, the fullback on defend duty will do a good job too. Just because he is on defend does not mean that he will always stay back. He will support and take part in final third transitions only if you have secured that side of the pitch,

 

You have opted to use a FB(A) whose primary purpose is to attack and secondary purpose is to provide support. Here again, he will stop providing support the moment you enter the midfield consolidation phase. So the question for you to answer for yourself is this:

Do I want him to overlap only when we have control of midfield? = FB(S)

Do I want him to go down the flank even if we don't have control? = FB(A)

 

Most 442s are fairly basic to set up, you need to decide how you want to control the flanks and then you need to decide how you are going to penetrate the Golden Zone in front of their two defenders.  I am not one to tell people exactly what to do, because then I make them play like me. It's far better if I offer advice and let them figure out their own style. This way they end up making their own systems that are strong. What you need to do is figure out how you are consistently going to control the Golden Zone. This is the area in front of the 2 CDs of the opposition, and this makes the 442 the most challenging basic formation for most people to master. Good luck

As for the FB, I'd like to read the answer to @Svenc. I'm really  confused now about the fb role and its duties. I thought it was grosso modo:

fb(d) Don't cross midfield, support from behind.

fb(su) Support from behind, overlap if there is space available

fb(at) A winger when attacking

I don't get the thing about having control of midfield or not. I don't understand what you mean.

 

Golden zone: I have no idea how to figure out how to consistently control the Golden Zone. It's out of my knowledge and understanding. I never heard about it before I watched your video.

 I can't even think about it because I don't know what to think about. I've watched your video about Golden Zone now 3 times and nothing.

I'm not asking to tell me what exactly to do but could you explain what can be done or what control this space means? Perhaps with one example I will understand the idea.

[looping]

8 hours ago, difran8 said:

Sounds pretty good. Only issue i see is the DLF(s) on the right. When you try to transition there will be a huge gap on the left side with the AF zooming forward and the left pair of midfielders won't have anyone close to pass to. I understand you have your reasons for leaving this space open (probably for the ML to attack it). Also on the right: CM(S) and DLF(s) will look to occupy the same space. Here you must have thought they will connect better if you help them connect.

Also, about PI. You can try a few games without any to see if the players accomplish their tasks alone. I feel you want to influence every.single.move and you get lost trying to micromanage pitch actions

Just try to have every broad area of the pitch covered. That right midfielder, for example, may be more inclined to dribble if he has loads of space available, without you specifically telling him to do so.

I know there will be a gap on the left side. This space must be occupied by my left back and my af drifting wide.

About cm(s) and dlf(s)  http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/football-manager-2016-tactics/354676-tactical-problems.html#post2954675

PI: I tried to follow what @herne79 did here https://community.sigames.com/topic/364527-developing-my-4-4-2/ Not the same instructions, I know, but I added PI to get players playing in the way I originally envisioned.

 

 

[pheelf]

I'll try to be as helpful as I can but I still don't think you have listened at all to the advice you have been given previously by so many. Also I think it might be useful for you to consider that the game isn't solely about tactics as I think you are losing sight of that. As far as I know Valencia don't play a 4-4-2 in real life so in a sense you are trying to force a square peg into a round hole by making them play it (look at your tactical familiarity). Additionally, you are trying to play a 4-4-2 in a league where the majority of teams don't play that formation and play formations which exploit the weaknesses of the 4-4-2 (basically any formation which has players in the AM and DM strata).

If you want to play a 4-4-2 you need the right sort of players to do so. Given that caveat I'd say that your wide midfielders are poorly suited to do what you need from them and that until some of your players unlearn some of the PPMs that you're likely to struggle. I don't know why you insist on starting games with a counter mentality for a formation which isn't designed to soak up pressure very well. You have already proven to yourself that it doesn't work, so why do keep on trying it? What's going to be different this time from any of the other times?
By standing off the opponent you are basically conceding the 'golden zone' to the opposition (the golden zone is just the area in front of your central defenders). The 4-4-2 needs to press the opposition because it has poor vertical coverage of the pitch.

Looking at your tactic I can see some serious potential flaws

The Counter mentality is a bad starting mentality for the following reasons:

1) Because of its lower tempo it gives opposition defenders the chance to recover their defensive positions which doesn't make any sense when you are playing with 2 strikers, not only are you suffering a disadvantage by only defending with 8 players you're also not taking advantage of having 2 players high up the pitch at all times. By having such a slow buildup by the time the ball gets to the strikers the defenders are back in position and it becomes a struggle to break them down.

2) The reduced width isn't particularly helpful either considering that when attacking you want to stretch the opposition back line in order to open up the central areas for your 2 strikers, what is the point in using an Advanced Forward with the 'Moves Into Channels' PI as default if there is no channel to move into because the opposition FB and CD aren't being spread apart with width?

3) A deeper line and reduced pressing is a terrible idea because if the opposition has a player in any of the AM positions they are going to rip you to shreds. The whole point of defending is to make life difficult for your opponent not grant them huge amounts of time and space on the ball. I can only imagine what kind of destruction you are likely to face when coming up against the likes of Ronaldo and Neymar in the league, they are going to give your defenders a torrid time anyway given how talented they are but add to that time and space on the ball. Do you actually want to be competitive?

I wouldn't play with an attack duty in the defence with two wide men in the formation. Why? Because even on a support duty you can get what you need (as Rashidi mentioned...I had to learn that the hard way). It's also not a great idea to play an attack duty in defence when there is no DM in the formation. The CM(D) is going to be more advanced (especially at times when the left back is advanced), so if the LB gets caught up the pitch and you lose the ball there is going to be no cover at all on your left flank (your left midfielder will have cut inside) which is just an invitation for the opposition to counter you down the right.

I think your choices of PIs could do with revision also. Why are you instructing your GK to Slow Play Down? That is totally contradictory to playing a Counter mentality where the whole point is to absorb pressure and catch the opposition out when they have over commited men forward. Why are you asking him to distribute to the central defenders? Are your central defenders exceptional passers of the ball? Once he's given it to the central defenders then what do you expect them to do with it? 

I think you need to start at the beginning. 

1) Identify the strengths and weakness of the 4-4-2 formation (forget about roles and duties for now) - That should sort out the defensive side of the tactic

2) Next define how you are going to minimize the weaknesses and exploit the strengths that you defined in 1) through the use of TIs - That should sort out the transition side of the tactic

3) Finally, set-up roles and duties which work with the TIs - That should sort out the attacking side of the tactic

Once you've done that then you should have a reasonable base to work from. What might be a good idea for you is if one of the tactical gurus around here shadow played a few games with you as that might help your understanding. 

[looping]

First off: stellar post.

 

 

31 minutes ago, pheelf said:

I'll try to be as helpful as I can but I still don't think you have listened at all to the advice you have been given previously by so many.

Please, I implore you, give me an example. I've read all my threads 4 times in the last month and I've tried to take on board everything said. What of what has been said I'm not doing?

 

3 minutes ago, pheelf said:

As far as I know Valencia don't play a 4-4-2 in real life so in a sense you are trying to force a square peg into a round hole by making them play it (look at your tactical familiarity).

 

12 hours ago, looping said:

For this save, I've chosen Valencia. I have to admit I sold almost all my players and I have an almost total new squad, so I expect some initial problems due to this circumstance but I also needed transfers to find suitable players.

 

 

 

4 minutes ago, pheelf said:

Additionally, you are trying to play a 4-4-2 in a league where the majority of teams don't play that formation and play formations which exploit the weaknesses of the 4-4-2 (basically any formation which has players in the AM and DM strata).

 

12 hours ago, looping said:

There is an obvious weakness: despite some players may know how drop strikers to defend, I don't know how to do it so I'll have 2 players upfront that won't contribute in defending. For that reason, I'll save up my sleeve the option to involve one of them. To do that I can: a) use man marking b) Drop one of them to AM strata c) Learn how to make both drop deep to defend.

Another important point is the screening offered by my cm. This is something I struggle to spot so I'll need help here.

 

 

 

6 minutes ago, pheelf said:

Given that caveat I'd say that your wide midfielders are poorly suited to do what you need from them and that until some of your players unlearn some of the PPMs that you're likely to struggle.

Orellana: runs wide with ball, huge the line (ppm). I want him to run, dribble and cross. What's wrong here?

Suso:

 I want him to narrow and open space for my left sided fullback (attack) and feed my advanced striker 

13 hours ago, looping said:

Left footed avoid using weaker foot so he may have problems cutting inside from left flank, where he is going to play

So, what could I do with Suso?

 

 

 

11 minutes ago, pheelf said:

If you want to play a 4-4-2 you need the right sort of players to do so. Given that caveat I'd say that your wide midfielders are poorly suited to do what you need from them and that until some of your players unlearn some of the PPMs that you're likely to struggle. I don't know why you insist on starting games with a counter mentality for a formation which isn't designed to soak up pressure very well. You have already proven to yourself that it doesn't work, so why do keep on trying it? What's going to be different this time from any of the other times?
By standing off the opponent you are basically conceding the 'golden zone' to the opposition (the golden zone is just the area in front of your central defenders). The 4-4-2 needs to press the opposition because it has poor vertical coverage of the pitch.

This is shocking. I see every weekend many many teams playing a deep 442, soaking up pressure and hitting on the break. Are you suggesting I can't do that in fm? Well... In my first matches, which I'll probably win, I'll sit back, the opponent overattacking me will crash against my 2 solid banks of four, I win the ball back, pass to the dlf and a counter is triggered. Pass into space to my AF/WM and goal/dangerous cross. 

Later on the save, you are right. I'll be completely destroyed by defensive teams, specially if they have players between my lines, outnumbering me in midfield and sitting deep.

 

26 minutes ago, pheelf said:

The Counter mentality is a bad starting mentality for the following reasons:

1) Because of its lower tempo it gives opposition defenders the chance to recover their defensive positions which doesn't make any sense when you are playing with 2 strikers, not only are you suffering a disadvantage by only defending with 8 players you're also not taking advantage of having 2 players high up the pitch at all times. By having such a slow buildup by the time the ball gets to the strikers the defenders are back in position and it becomes a struggle to break them down.

 I may need, at least, a higher tempo/more direct passing or increasing mentality. Honestly, I don't really like to increase mentality because I want to sit deep but if I come back to your previous advice it's not a good a idea to sit deep with a 442. I don't completely get this part. I don't understand why I can't sit deep but I understand that I need more pace moving the ball up to my strikers.

Could you explain again why a 442 is not suited to sitting deep? I'm confused now.

 

54 minutes ago, pheelf said:

A deeper line and reduced pressing is a terrible idea because if the opposition has a player in any of the AM positions they are going to rip you to shreds. The whole point of defending is to make life difficult for your opponent not grant them huge amounts of time and space on the ball. I can only imagine what kind of destruction you are likely to face when coming up against the likes of Ronaldo and Neymar in the league, they are going to give your defenders a torrid time anyway given how talented they are but add to that time and space on the ball. Do you actually want to be competitive?

Despite my initial idea, what you say starts making sense... When I play against big teams Neymar, Messi, Ronaldo and Bale completely destroy me. I hardly ever concede less than 3 against them. The fact that I identify the problem doesn't mean that  I understand why it happens. I don't understand why a 442 can't be played deep.

 

1 hour ago, pheelf said:

I wouldn't play with an attack duty in the defence with two wide men in the formation. Why? Because even on a support duty you can get what you need (as Rashidi mentioned...I had to learn that the hard way). It's also not a great idea to play an attack duty in defence when there is no DM in the formation. The CM(D) is going to be more advanced (especially at times when the left back is advanced), so if the LB gets caught up the pitch and you lose the ball there is going to be no cover at all on your left flank (your left midfielder will have cut inside) which is just an invitation for the opposition to counter you down the right.

That's shocking again. I've said many many many times I don't want to play with fb on attack but i was almost forced to do that due to advice given. If there is one constant in advice given is a fb on attack because it increases movement between lines. No problem, I'll change it immediately.

 

1 hour ago, pheelf said:

I think your choices of PIs could do with revision also. Why are you instructing you GK to Slow Play Down? That is totally contradictory to playing a Counter mentality where the whole point is to absorb pressure and catch the opposition out when they have over commited men forward. Why are you asking him to distribute to the central defenders? Are you central defenders exceptional passers of the ball? Once he's given it to the central defenders then what do you expect them to do with it? 

I have no special attachment to distribute to centerbacks or slow play down. It's only that removing it, my gk will start sending balls to nobody all the time, 

14 hours ago, looping said:

Goalies can waste silly amounts of possession by just hoofing it up the pitch.

The idea was gk to centerbacks and cb short pass to cm.

 

I'm going to revamp the tactic following what you said but could you explain again why I can't defend deep with 442?

 

 

[looping]

This is the tactic now:

I changed

Roles and duties

- Both fullbacks to fb(d)

You'll see later both my wm are on attack now so I want my fb to hold position and take part in final third transitions only if I have secured that side of the pitch.

- Both Wide midfielders to wm(at)

I want them to be the real threat down the flanks, making aggressive forward runs, dribbling, playing risky passes and finishing. I don't use wingers because they are bit one dimensional: only running wide and crossing. I want my wm to run wide and cut inside on occasion, etc..

- cm(de) to bwm(de) and cm(su) to dlp(su)

What I want here is more pressing with my bwm and more control of the space with a more conservative role (hold position) dlp. With two wm(at) I almost have a 424 immediately when attacking so I need somebody managing space in the middle.

- AF(at) to SS(at)

I want him to be my main goal threat but I don't want him isolated upfront. I also need an extra man in midfield so I'm not dramatically outnumbered.

- DFL(su) to DF(su)

I still want him to hold up the ball but also to close down more because 442 needs more pressing.

 

Shape and mentality

I changed mentality to standard which will provide higher tempo, closing down and more width.

 

Team instructions

I removed Play out the defense.

I didn't remove push higher because I hope this will increase compactness. With a higher def line my players will start closing down before the opponent gets into what you call Golden Zone.

I added more direct passing to move the ball forward quickly to my attacking players.

 

Player Instructions

I removed all.

 

What do you think now?

[pheelf]

2 minutes ago, looping said:

This is the tactic now:

I changed

Roles and duties

- Both fullbacks to fb(d)

You'll see later both my wm are on attack now so I want my fb to hold position and take part in final third transitions only if I have secured that side of the pitch.

- Both Wide midfielders to wm(at)

I want them to be the real threat down the flanks, making aggressive forward runs, dribbling, playing risky passes and finishing. I don't use wingers because they are bit one dimensional: only running wide and crossing. I want my wm to run wide and cut inside on occasion, etc..

- cm(de) to bwm(de) and cm(su) to dlp(su)

What I want here is more pressing with my bwm and more control of the space with a more conservative role (hold position) dlp. With two wm(at) I almost have a 424 immediately when attacking so I need somebody managing space in the middle.

- AF(at) to SS(at)

I want him to be my main goal threat but I don't want him isolated upfront. I also need an extra man in midfield so I'm not dramatically outnumbered.

- DFL(su) to DF(su)

I still want him to hold up the ball but also to close down more because 442 needs more pressing.

 

Shape and mentality

I changed mentality to standard which will provide higher tempo, closing down and more width.

 

Team instructions

I removed Play out the defense.

I didn't remove push higher because I hope this will increase compactness. With a higher def line my players will start closing down before the opponent gets into what you call Golden Zone.

I added more direct passing to move the ball forward quickly to my attacking players.

 

Player Instructions

I removed all.

 

What do you think now?

I wouldn't have both the fullbacks on defend as that is likely to create a huge gap between the two wide players and you want them to be able to link up. Besides as Valencia you are one of the stronger teams in the league so there is no real need to be so conservative. A support duty would help here. You could switch back to a defend duty if you identify a specific threat down the flanks that you feel needs attention.

If I was being picky I'd move over the AMC and ST so that the AMC is directly behind the ST so that they can link up more easily too. 

Other than that I think it looks a coherent tactic that should perform okay.  The DF(S) should open up space for the SS(A) to attack. The two central midfielders offer the right balance when it comes to defending. The wide midfielders should stretch the back line opening up the central zone and the transitions should be quick enough to allow a number of counter attacks to be triggered. I'll be interested to see how you get on

[pheelf]

I wrote this before you posted your updated tactic.

I certainly wouldn't disagree that you do see teams playing a 4-4-2 with a deep line in real life (often they tend to have their midfielders deeper and strikers deeper also especially at lower league clubs) but I've yet to see anybody manage to make that work in FM17. Partly because of the wide midfielder issue and also the fact that you are rather restricted when it comes to defining defensive positioning for midfielders and forwards. You have a 'Get Further Forward' instruction when your team is in possession but not a 'Drop Deeper' instruction for when you don't. Therefore how do you properly replicate Leicester of last season or Iceland in the Euros when you can't instruct your players to collapse inwards when they don't have the ball. At the moment you have your defenders collapsing inwards (both vertically & horizontally) but the rest of your team won't which creates problems and huge gaps.

Therefore since you can't bring the midfield line closer to the defensive line which would be needed to make a deeper line work then you're only left with pushing the d-line up to reduce the space between the two strata otherwise you gift massive amounts of space to the opposition in a dangerous area.

There are no rules as I understand it when it comes to playing any system but I've just given my thoughts based upon my experiences with the game. The problem with the wide players as you have them setup is that you have your LM cutting inside when he has already been instructed to sit narrower. Who is then opening the channels up for your AF to run into?

On the other side you have your RM behaving like a winger opening the channels up but there is nobody to benefit from that. Your DLF(S) who you have instructed to hold position isn't going to move into the channel that has been created and by the time your CM (S) gets up into position you WM(A) is likely to be attacking the box himself and compressing the opposition defensive line rather than stretching it. This all gets compounded by a slower tempo and narrower way of attacking.

As for the fullbacks moving in between the lines, they will do that plenty with a support duty and in less risky situations move beyond the midfield. I can't think of any good reason to play with attacking fullbacks in a 4-4-2 unless you are coming up against really weak opposition as it has the potential to leave you so open on the break that any gain from having another player in attack is negated by the threat of the opposition being given a whole flank to themselves.

[looping]

This is weird.

What was almost my first tactic in fm16 was:

gk

fb(su) cd(de) cd(de) fb(su)

w(at) bwm(de) dlp(su) w(at)

f9 af

 

This tactic was highly and widely criticized arguing (among other reasons):

- I need a fb on attack

- bwm-dlp are both static and I need a runner from midfield

- bwm can never be the holder of a midfield

 

My later tactics have been based on this principles (among others) strictly following advice given. I can't understand why exists this general assumption that I dismiss advice. I can't understand it.

 

Let's draw a line  and move on.

 

[looping]

37 minutes ago, pheelf said:

I'll be interested to see how you get on

By now, completely battered in all my friendlies.

[Craigus89]

30 minutes ago, looping said:

By now, completely battered in all my friendlies.

Why aren't you playing very weak opposition in your friendlies?

Not a dig at any post or response from you in particular, but just saying over and over and over that you don't understand what you need to do or what you need to look for or what you need to change can only mean that you aren't reading what you are being told.

I see a few posts up yet another completely different tactic. Not listening.

[looping]

7 minutes ago, Craigus89 said:

Why aren't you playing very weak opposition in your friendlies?

How do you know I'm not playing against very weak opposition? Two divisions lower is enough?

 

7 minutes ago, Craigus89 said:

I see a few posts up yet another completely different tactic. Not listening.

Have you read anything or you just came here to repeat the same mantra?

 

I really think you should edit/hide your post.

[shadster]

Why do you changed so many players? To try to find players to your system? You are struglling hard in the game, and that action will contribute to make the game harder in my opinion. 

But I hope you will have sucess, just consider one thing. I think everybody, or almost, struggle around the end of November, December and or January. Until I read and watched Rashidi's videos, I never understanded why. I used to think, well, that's the way SI Games chooses to make the game harder, and that made me upset. But now we know why that happens. So when that period arrives, try not to panic, go watch Rashidi's videos that talk about that subjet, and before things get out of control, come here and ask for advice to change things. People here will give great advices!

[looping]

5 minutes ago, shadster said:

Why do you changed so many players? To try to find players to your system? You are struglling hard in the game, and that action will contribute to make the game harder in my opinion. 

But I hope you will have sucess, just consider one thing. I think everybody, or almost, struggle around the end of November, December and or January. Until I read and watched Rashidi's videos, I never understanded why. I used to think, well, that's the way SI Games chooses to make the game harder, and that made me upset. But now we know why that happens. So when that period arrives, try not to panic, go watch Rashidi's videos that talk about that subjet, and before things get out of control, come here and ask for advice to change things. People here will give great advices!

That's my intention with my current save. I just wanted to be sure my starting tactic was ok.

[Rashidi]

tbh Looping, its quite a fair bit of trial and error. And the 442 isn't the easiest system to get working with average players. I would suggest something that deals with systems that control zones. I've done a thread called Building a squad...it explains what I mean. The problem for most people is that the y don't know what transitions mean. They know the ball breaks down, but why does it happen? 

Believe me its not something you will figure out in a day or even a month, but it takes time. I have helped many people simply by going through pkms with them. Many start by identifying one event in like 20 minutes while I've identified 10. With more practice you will get better, but you need to go out there and give it a good go. I do believe that you will in the end get it right. I know I come off as condescending at times, blame it to age, However I do feel that sometimes we need to keep chipping away bit by bit before we shape something into an object we desire. First we need to start chipping, maybe your first attempt won't be so good. I am sure with more and more effort you will get there.

I am concerned that you are trying it the hardest way possible with a 442 though. It's technically the most challenging system you could have picked out of the box.

[difran8]

3 hours ago, looping said:

Please, I implore you, give me an example. I've read all my threads 4 times in the last month and I've tried to take on board everything said. What of what has been said I'm not doing?

On the contrary, i think you take everything  into account. And that's the problem, as you overload yourself with information and plans, often contradictory, and change a lot in a whim without the patience to stick to one formation and one (max two) fluidity during a whole season.

As you may have noticed, advice posts are often in disagreement. For example, i don't agree nearly on every point pheelf has made in his post. I still think your base 442 was relatively sound. I would change the two flank roles to WP and W because that's what you are telling them to do with your PI. Also i'd swap striker roles for better shaping when going forward.

[Bitner]

4 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

tbh Looping, its quite a fair bit of trial and error.

Agreed. No-one learns to play FM in a overnight, no-one adapts in a overnight. Take your time. I'm still watching you looping. I want you to do well.

Cheers,
Bitner 

[looping]

I can't understand why 4-4-2 is so difficult. I can't. I'm sorry to say that but here the game must be wrong. If 442 is difficult there is no other option. 442 is anything but difficult, it is very simple, provides width, two solid banks of four, avoids isolation of a lone striker... I can't understand it. I can't. Perhaps it's time to admit the game is wrong here? At least, formations should be neutral. And I say at least, because obviously is much more difficult to get to work a 352 with inverted wingbacks than a 442, due to its simplicity. 442 it's almost plug&play not in terms of overachieving or explioting the ME but in terms of playing decent football with decent results. Almost any combination of players can be suited: you have a tall striker, use a target man. You don't have a tall striker but a creative one, use a dlf/treq/f9. You have paced wings, use wingers. etc... It's very flexible you can use it in many different ways. I don't know if I'm 100% right but sure I got the point.

I've followed advice given from the first post, as far as my understanding allowed me. Thanks for finally admitting I'm not dismissing advice given. It really means a lot to me.

Never was my purpose to learn in a night. I've been posting here for more than a year. I haven't played a single real save in fm17. Nor in fm16.

It's very difficult to play when almost everything that is said is against my football principles. To start with, 442 is difficult to get to work and immediately my head explodes. 442 is weak defensively, my head explodes.

It may be the case that it's simply imposible for an average gamer to get better results with a only 2 central midfielders if opponents use to play with 3 players in central positions? Because I think I can spot much more than the vast majority of players (thousands of people not posting here) and my results are not even playable. I can't play, I'm sacked in every save. I struggle to believe that the vast majority of players have any idea about transitions, creative freedom, overlaps and this kind of stuff. 

 

I'll play some matches and let you know. But I'm afraid nothing will change.

 

 

[Rashidi]

I didn't say the 442 was the weakest defensively, I said it is the hardest to perfect technically for anyone trying to play FM, because it demands a knowledge of the game few have.

[looping]

4 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

I didn't say the 442 was the weakest defensively, I said it is the hardest to perfect technically for anyone trying to play FM, because it demands a knowledge of the game few have.

Me neither.

15 minutes ago, looping said:

442 is weak defensively,

442 seems unstable defensively in fm, that's all I said.

In fact, as weird as it sounds, we are saying exactly the same.

[Rashidi]

No its not weak defensively, its not the greatest system, but to play it well you have to be a very good player

[shadster]

Well, I have to disagree with you looping. For me, 4-4-2 formations are usually harder to make them succefull, and I'll try to explain why I think that way. We all know that in England, at least in the past, they were very common, perhaps currently on the lower leagues they still use it. But I think that managers who use it,they know they will control the game, have the ball a lot, put on a lot of pressure on the oposition team. My team, Benfica uses a 4-4-2 formation, but teams in Portugal, besides Benfica Porto and Sporting, on the last seasons are becoming more and more weak in my opinion. So Benfica uses that formation with very good results, because they have the ball all the time. The first year I remember Benfica to use this formation, they had Javi Garcia and Pablo Aimar on the mildfield, and in the beginning I thought, this will be a disgrace, Aimar doesn't defend at all! But they had Ramires (who went to Chelsea later), who helped in the midle when they were defending (we played on the right when team was attacking).

Now to try to relate this to the game, I really think it is the same. I could be wrong, of course, but a 4-4-2 formation, the way I see it is easir to pull off if you have a very dominant team, and it requires to master the positions and transitions better, because for me it's harder to get a good balance on offensive/defensive sides. So I don't agree that the game is wrong here. I've tried it a few times, failed everytime. Despite all of this, I think that if you had a more calm approach to the game, and if you really want to play 4-4-2, there´s people here that play that way and have good results! I

[looping]

5 minutes ago, shadster said:

Well, I have to disagree with you looping. For me, 4-4-2 formations are usually harder to make them succefull, and I'll try to explain why I think that way. We all know that in England, at least in the past, they were very common, perhaps currently on the lower leagues they still use it. But I think that managers who use it,they know they will control the game, have the ball a lot, put on a lot of pressure on the oposition team. My team, Benfica uses a 4-4-2 formation, but teams in Portugal, besides Benfica Porto and Sporting, on the last seasons are becoming more and more weak in my opinion. So Benfica uses that formation with very good results, because they have the ball all the time. The first year I remember Benfica to use this formation, they had Javi Garcia and Pablo Aimar on the mildfield, and in the beginning I thought, this will be a disgrace, Aimar doesn't defend at all! But they had Ramires (who went to Chelsea later), who helped in the midle when they were defending (we played on the right when team was attacking).

Now to try to relate this to the game, I really think it is the same. I could be wrong, of course, but a 4-4-2 formation, the way I see it is easir to pull off if you have a very dominant team, and it requires to master the positions and transitions better, because for me it's harder to get a good balance on offensive/defensive sides. So I don't agree that the game is wrong here. I've tried it a few times, failed everytime. Despite all of this, I think that if you had a more calm approach to the game, and if you really want to play 4-4-2, there´s people here that play that way and have good results! I

At the end, yours and mine are opinions and the fact is that formations should be neutral and they are not.

 

35 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

I said it is the hardest to perfect technically for anyone trying to play FM, because it demands a knowledge of the game few have.

 

Of course having Aimar in center midfield in a 442 is concerning, but I'm not doing any of this. My most attacking central midfielder is always at least decent (when not good or even brilliant) at defense. Much better than Aimar for sure. 

[looping]

24 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

No its not weak defensively, its not the greatest system, but to play it well you have to be a very good player

As for the 442, is your video about Leicester 442 still relevant?

[Rashidi]

Been relevant since Day 1

 

[Rashidi]

what you fail to come to grips with is adapting. If the AI changes its focus, what are you going to do? I will always adapt in game

[looping]

2 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

Been relevant since Day 1

 

Do you have any other videos about 442? I think I remember another but I don't find it now.

[shadster]

I gave that example of Aimar, not to say that you do that, but to give an example in real life, that to have good results with a 4-4-2, the manager at the time made some adjustments to make it work. And I don't think formations should be neutral. For me, a 4-4-2 nowadays, is much hard to make work in real life or FM than a 4-1-2-2-1, to give you an example. But it is only my opinion.

[looping]

3 minutes ago, shadster said:

I gave that example of Aimar, not to say that you do that, but to give an example in real life, that to have good results with a 4-4-2, the manager at the time, made some adjustments to make it work. And I don't think formations should be neutral. For me, a 4-4-2, nowadays, is much hard to make work in real life or FM, than a 4-1-2-2-1, to give you an example. But it is only my opinion.

yes, I get what you say. Just that I don't understand why 442 is so hard.

[Rashidi]

4 minutes ago, shadster said:

I gave that example of Aimar, not to say that you do that, but to give an example in real life, that to have good results with a 4-4-2, the manager at the time made some adjustments to make it work. And I don't think formations should be neutral. For me, a 4-4-2 nowadays, is much hard to make work in real life or FM than a 4-1-2-2-1, to give you an example. But it is only my opinion.

I agree with everything you've said so far.

[pheelf]

3 hours ago, looping said:

By now, completely battered in all my friendlies.

I actually decided to fire up FM17 and start a save game with Valencia and use the tactic you created (4-4-1-1) with the slight alterations that I suggested. I haven't made any transfers at all and have just played every game by using quick pick to select my players for each game and these are my results so far.

I made no alterations to that tactic in any game and only made substitutions. I'm 3rd in the table (better than pre-season expectation of 5th) and have only lost twice. Once after a red card against Osasuna and the other against Real Madrid where we very unlucky not to get a point or better. Considering that I don't even have the players to play the system to be outperforming expectations I think is pretty impressive. Now either I'm the most flukiest individual in the world or tactics isn't the sum total of your issue. If I can do it and I'm not that good at this game then there is absolutely no reason why you can't.

 

2 hours ago, difran8 said:

On the contrary, i think you take everything  into account. And that's the problem, as you overload yourself with information and plans, often contradictory, and change a lot in a whim without the patience to stick to one formation and one (max two) fluidity during a whole season.

As you may have noticed, advice posts are often in disagreement. For example, i don't agree nearly on every point pheelf has made in his post. I still think your base 442 was relatively sound. I would change the two flank roles to WP and W because that's what you are telling them to do with your PI. Also i'd swap striker roles for better shaping when going forward.

That's ok, you are free to disagree with me but you could at least explain why you disagree with nearly everything I have written and better still make a suggestion of something that would in fact be better. I don't consider myself an expert so I'm always open to other peoples opinions. Unfortunately, what you have written there doesn't really add anything to the discussion at all except trashing me.

[bdixon]

28 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

what you fail to come to grips with is adapting. If the AI changes its focus, what are you going to do? I will always adapt in game

I sympathize with the OP a little, learning to adapt is something I find the most difficult.

e.g. Opposition starts having more position than me 60%-40% I start to  panic as more possession = less chance I have a scoring. My response, more than likely incorrect. I select retain possession TI as it seems the most logical to me. Possession start stay the same. I bewilders me at times on what is the best way 'to' adapt. 

[looping]

1 minute ago, bdixon said:

I sympathize with the OP a little, learning to adapt is something I find the most difficult.

e.g. Opposition starts having more position than me 60%-40% I start to  panic as more possession = less chance I have a scoring. My response, more than likely incorrect. I select retain possession TI as it seems the most logical to me. Possession start stay the same. I bewilders me at times on what is the best way 'to' adapt. 

What I tend to do is to push my defense higher and shorter passing. After 20 mins or so without any positive effect I start giving shots in the dark and come here.