This time for real

[Svenc]

6 hours ago, Craigus89 said:

Then if you do have the usual slump mid way through the season you'll know where the system is failing.

Which assumes a) getting into that slump and b) not getting out of it is entirelly tactical. Who knows how he's treading his squad when the results turn sour? This will go down as any thread prior, because it's running the same themes and patterns - except a year ago it was the best tactical mods around still contributing who have largely since given up. We were at a point at which Dr Hook replied with this: " See, your base tactic is soundly constructed. You claim you never win, and concede loads of goals. Are you winding us all up here? " It takes all kinds of stuff to underachieve on virtually every save, and speaking about those saves where suddenly after two seasons at the club it all goes down: Those are typically the easiest as by that point you have a fully gelled squad who would respect you, an idea why you brought players in for what, which is all the more reasons why my alarm bells start ringing in all kinds of directions, and they extent far further than the tactics that when used by others don't get near those catastrophic results. Not that I think it's a wind up. I just think looping either can't handle the admittedly loads of information the game throws at him (sympathize) -- or is just an all around bad manager who thinks his main and biggest failure is not being Guardiola tactical genius, when he struggles with the basics in virtually every area of the job FM as represented in FM. Because that is the only way of never lasting in the job at all. You'd think the starlet players he succeeds in bringing in would save his day just once.

The alternative naturally is that his version is bugged. FM 16 then was too already though. I wouldn't respond to this so strongly if he wouldn't continue to spread that this was like a hugely complicated game and attract simular frustrated players, in particular tactically, and that he's seriously under the impression this would be like a game that nobody could pick up and play. It may be not quite that simple in particular if you consider the assistants in there that can take over everything as "cheating" (even though it is well documented that popular football managers have allocated lots of stuff including tactics to their assistants in real football). But he's already far beyond that stage and it boggles the mind how he would be so consistently get sacked. If you are past that stage, you should be able to put up a reasonably balanced base "tactics" in like 30 seconds that wouldn't get such results consistently (and he did it a year ago, see the quote by Dr Hook). I did saves where I didn't even look at the play much anymore on text commentary and sprinted through it all, as do others. Anyway, cheers for anybody trying to help him. But it's hard getting through, and I don't think he will magically report back with anything different, because the patterns remain the same. I don't want him to reply to this, as this could derail the thread from the tactical debates and see another thread locked (there were many before). But I want him to seriously consider all areas of the game, and the quotes by Dr. Hook, the questions posed by pheelf and many more. Unless your squad is mismanaged, you should expect to at least see a team perform to ability/expectations more often than not, fact, as in football too, better teams tend to win against worse ones more often than not.

[difran8]

7 hours ago, looping said:

I went for more generic roles and, most important, fluid shape. I read the suggestions here and https://community.sigames.com/topic/400065-building-a-squad-to-win/ Playing very fluid puts most of my team on the same mentality, and in the defensive third nearly every player there will be on the same mentality. If I find that this "ice-skater" is an issue, I go very fluid and counter, with a normal to slightly deep defensive line. This creates walls of players he needs to dribble past

 

This gave me the idea to go fluid+stick to positions to compress space in the middle.

The other TI is be more disciplined so my players focus in their roles and duties. No creative freedom. I can untick this instruction against defensive teams cause this additional creativity can help unlock defenses.

I added more risky passes and more direct passing to mi cm-su so he acts as a creator.

I'm not sure about adding push higher up TI. This would compress the space even more, defense and midfield line closer. This highlight may suggest I need to do that

You read tactics post about advanced issues that are beyond your current scope. And you have far too many ideas that you throw in the wind and hope something sticks.Take a step back. Do not read/watch anything more tactics-wise except this thread. You have already far too many info.

So, we now are at the 442 fluid. Strip those TI away. What do you do when things aren't going your way? One of the simplest and greatest changes you can apply for different in-game situations is a mentality change. Why don't you try this a bit?

[looping]

5 hours ago, Svenc said:

Which assumes a) getting into that slump and b) not getting out of it is entirelly tactical. Who knows how he's treading his squad when the results turn sour? This will go down as any thread prior, because it's running the same themes and patterns - except a year ago it was the best tactical mods around still contributing who have largely since given up. We were at a point at which Dr Hook replied with this: " See, your base tactic is soundly constructed. You claim you never win, and concede loads of goals. Are you winding us all up here? " It takes all kinds of stuff to underachieve on virtually every save, and speaking about those saves where suddenly after two seasons at the club it all goes down: Those are typically the easiest as by that point you have a fully gelled squad who would respect you, an idea why you brought players in for what, which is all the more reasons why my alarm bells start ringing in all kinds of directions, and they extent far further than the tactics that when used by others don't get near those catastrophic results. Not that I think it's a wind up. I just think looping either can't handle the admittedly loads of information the game throws at him (sympathize) -- or is just an all around bad manager who thinks his main and biggest failure is not being Guardiola tactical genius, when he struggles with the basics in virtually every area of the job FM as represented in FM. Because that is the only way of never lasting in the job at all. You'd think the starlet players he succeeds in bringing in would save his day just once.

The alternative naturally is that his version is bugged. FM 16 then was too already though. I wouldn't respond to this so strongly if he wouldn't continue to spread that this was like a hugely complicated game and attract simular frustrated players, in particular tactically, and that he's seriously under the impression this would be like a game that nobody could pick up and play. It may be not quite that simple in particular if you consider the assistants in there that can take over everything as "cheating" (even though it is well documented that popular football managers have allocated lots of stuff including tactics to their assistants in real football). But he's already far beyond that stage and it boggles the mind how he would be so consistently get sacked. If you are past that stage, you should be able to put up a reasonably balanced base "tactics" in like 30 seconds that wouldn't get such results consistently (and he did it a year ago, see the quote by Dr Hook). I did saves where I didn't even look at the play much anymore on text commentary and sprinted through it all, as do others. Anyway, cheers for anybody trying to help him. But it's hard getting through, and I don't think he will magically report back with anything different, because the patterns remain the same. I don't want him to reply to this, as this could derail the thread from the tactical debates and see another thread locked (there were many before). But I want him to seriously consider all areas of the game, and the quotes by Dr. Hook, the questions posed by pheelf and many more. Unless your squad is mismanaged, you should expect to at least see a team perform to ability/expectations more often than not, fact, as in football too, better teams tend to win against worse ones more often than not.

As I said in a previous post, the idea is to get to the typical slump and then analyze all possible causes and fix it. This includes non tactic related.

[looping]

4 hours ago, difran8 said:

You read tactics post about advanced issues that are beyond your current scope. And you have far too many ideas that you throw in the wind and hope something sticks.Take a step back. Do not read/watch anything more tactics-wise except this thread. You have already far too many info.

So, we now are at the 442 fluid. Strip those TI away. What do you do when things aren't going your way? One of the simplest and greatest changes you can apply for different in-game situations is a mentality change. Why don't you try this a bit?

https://community.sigames.com/topic/385032-learning-how-to-play/?page=9

This has already been tried. Full page 9. Despite that, I agree it's a good point and not far of what I am doing with my current save.

 

 

[aderow]

On 4/6/2017 at 14:23, RTHerringbone said:

Someone on the last page mentioned trialling stuff in FMT. I wonder @looping if it might benefit you starting afresh in that game mode? It will remove any impact of Tactical Familiarity and enable you to make the changes you want without any detrimental impact on players' "knowledge of the system".

At least if you do that it will rule out Tactical Familiarity as an obstacle obstructing your progress. Just a thought.

Yep. That's exactly what I do when I want to test something out tactically.

[kandersson]

@looping mate you need to understand that this game has limitations. It can be very frustrating, it is for me too in fact I'd avoid playing a 4-4-2 unless I have the type of team that can basically dominate with any formation. Personally everything different form a three man defence tends to be quite frustrating for me in FM 17 but that's just me.

As for the 'adjustments'. Not sure if already mentioned but one very useful thing to do is to keep opponents formation tab open during the match and adapt to that. If it says 'attacking' than just switching your mentality to counter could often result in good things (a very frustrating thing is when they never go 'attacking', see Italy and Brazil leagues). When it says 'defensive' then maybe you can switch to attacking yourself.

[looping]

58 minutes ago, kandersson said:

@looping mate you need to understand that this game has limitations. It can be very frustrating, it is for me too in fact I'd avoid playing a 4-4-2 unless I have the type of team that can basically dominate with any formation. Personally everything different form a three man defence tends to be quite frustrating for me in FM 17 but that's just me.

As for the 'adjustments'. Not sure if already mentioned but one very useful thing to do is to keep opponents formation tab open during the match and adapt to that. If it says 'attacking' than just switching your mentality to counter could often result in good things (a very frustrating thing is when they never go 'attacking', see Italy and Brazil leagues). When it says 'defensive' then maybe you can switch to attacking yourself.

this is what I did here https://community.sigames.com/topic/385032-learning-how-to-play/?page=9

I'm still doing it.

Sometimes if they go attacking and you defensive, the result is being completely battered. Then I would go more attacking.

[looping]

On 8/4/2017 at 18:19, kandersson said:

@looping mate you need to understand that this game has limitations. It can be very frustrating, it is for me too in fact I'd avoid playing a 4-4-2 unless I have the type of team that can basically dominate with any formation. Personally everything different form a three man defence tends to be quite frustrating for me in FM 17 but that's just me.

As for the 'adjustments'. Not sure if already mentioned but one very useful thing to do is to keep opponents formation tab open during the match and adapt to that. If it says 'attacking' than just switching your mentality to counter could often result in good things (a very frustrating thing is when they never go 'attacking', see Italy and Brazil leagues). When it says 'defensive' then maybe you can switch to attacking yourself.

I did exactly what you suggested. Only changed mentality.

It's true, not sacked yet, but it's just a matter of time.

I don't understand it. I can't.

[looping]

Goal achieved.

I'll start a new save in FMT, as was suggested before.

[Craigus89]

15 hours ago, looping said:

Goal achieved.

I'll start a new save in FMT, as was suggested before.

NO! FFS looping you are infuriating. What do you think you are going to achieve by doing what you have just done for the thousandth time!? You aren't going to find a magic formula or silver bullet that makes you good at this. Go back and watch those games you lost and figure out why your system didn't work. That is the ONLY way you are ever going to figure this game out.

If you refuse to do that then please stop posting here and wasting everyone's time.

[Wilesy]

The last screenshot is not from the same season you have been playing up until now, this is entirely new and we have no idea what is going on (you drew 2-2 with Sevilla in the screenshots above and won 3-1 in this one), also you seem to be in the 2017/18 season. Why? What has happened in the previous season that you don't want us to see? As the dates of the games tie in I assume you're starting a save from the start of the 2017/18 season. Is this to prove some sort of point? Why not start at the 2016/17 season and work from there?

I've had a feeling your screenshots are a bit off for a while now, you swap skins and now languages readily. You simply are not providing the full picture and then when advice is given you don't supply the results. 

 

[Craigus89]

17 hours ago, looping said:

I did exactly what you suggested. Only changed mentality.

It's true, not sacked yet, but it's just a matter of time.

I don't understand it. I can't.

As above, if you have gone through a whole season and are now on your second one then you are being purposefully stupid. Clearly you aren't going to have success without changing your tactic over the course of a whole season with players being rotated, teams setting up differently, certain games meaning more than others etc. This was simply to try and get you to understand some basic principles and watch the games!

Did you honestly think you would have a successful season just storming through with one tactic that has not been developed not watching games?

[looping]

41 minutes ago, Wilesy said:

The last screenshot is not from the same season you have been playing up until now, this is entirely new and we have no idea what is going on (you drew 2-2 with Sevilla in the screenshots above and won 3-1 in this one), also you seem to be in the 2017/18 season. Why? What has happened in the previous season that you don't want us to see? As the dates of the games tie in I assume you're starting a save from the start of the 2017/18 season. Is this to prove some sort of point? Why not start at the 2016/17 season and work from there?

I've had a feeling your screenshots are a bit off for a while now, you swap skins and now languages readily. You simply are not providing the full picture and then when advice is given you don't supply the results. 

 

 

34 minutes ago, Craigus89 said:

As above, if you have gone through a whole season and are now on your second one then you are being purposefully stupid. Clearly you aren't going to have success without changing your tactic over the course of a whole season with players being rotated, teams setting up differently, certain games meaning more than others etc. This was simply to try and get you to understand some basic principles and watch the games!

Did you honestly think you would have a successful season just storming through with one tactic that has not been developed not watching games?

 

- I've always started in season 17-18 so there is no previous season.

- I reload the same save in august 2017.

- I started the save on april 2017 so I have time and money to sign new players for the season 17-18.

- I don't know how to swap skins so if it is happening I didn't notice.

- I change from spanish to english when I take an screenshot to post here so anybody here can understand  (furthermore, rules of the forum say users must use english)

- I  was told the game was much simpler and there was no need to over complicate the things tactically so what I did is to set an apparently sound tactic and then only change mentality according to circumstances.

- Watch games and figure out what's wrong is what I've tried for more than one year. I can do it again.

- What is infuriating? (genuine question) I just try everything I'm told.

 

Please, don't think in terms I want to lose, this is a wind up, I'm making obvious mistakes, I'm not following advice... 

[Craigus89]

Then I'll post this again:

What do you think you are going to achieve by doing what you have just done for the thousandth time on a new save!? You aren't going to find a magic formula or silver bullet that makes you good at this. Go back and watch those games you lost and figure out why your system didn't work. That is the ONLY way you are ever going to figure this game out.

[looping]

9 minutes ago, Craigus89 said:

Then I'll post this again:

What do you think you are going to achieve by doing what you have just done for the thousandth time on a new save!? You aren't going to find a magic formula or silver bullet that makes you good at this. Go back and watch those games you lost and figure out why your system didn't work. That is the ONLY way you are ever going to figure this game out.

Having watched thousands of games, I would say this is an attitude problem of my players. They miss almost all individual duels, even against much worse players. They miss tackles, get dribbled, miss easy chances, miss headers, let players shot instead of tackling...

Belotti misses regularly 2-3 ccc in every game. 

Paredes has missed 3 penalties (0 scored of 3).

If this was real football I would say players are underperforming on purpose because they want me to be sacked.

[Craigus89]

16 minutes ago, looping said:

Having watched thousands of games, I would say this is an attitude problem of my players. They miss almost all individual duels, even against much worse players. They miss tackles, get dribbled, miss easy chances, miss headers, let players shot instead of tackling...

Belotti misses regularly 2-3 ccc in every game. 

Paredes has missed 3 penalties (0 scored of 3).

If this was real football I would say players are underperforming on purpose because they want me to be sacked.

But you said this when someone challenged you on the fact that it may not be tactic related:

Quote

 

I pay attention to reports before signing a player. Not only stars. No, I'm not that kind of guy. I see if the player will fit in my team, his personality, etc.. I never sign players with low determination, work rate, teamwork and composure (and bravery, to some extent). I also take on account ppm: If I want a winger running wide I won't sign a player who cuts inside from both flanks.

I pay attention to my squad, their morale, press conferences everything. I know what I can say to relief pressure or motivate my players. I go to team talk feedback and pay attention to that. Even when the effect of this is not huge.

 

What you have said above is clearly not the case then if you are on top of all these things.

I'm lost as to what to suggest to be honest, you are beyond help.

[Rashidi]

38 minutes ago, looping said:

attitude problem

There is no such thing in FM, there is nothing in the game that translates to attitude. When players miss tackles, get dribbled past, miss headers, let players take shots instead of tackling its usually cos of something like....not understanding how the attributes come into play. 

 

Anyone can make a decent tactic, but few can tell what attributes affect their players during failures in a game. I have an 8 year old boy who sometimes comes over to my place and he manages Crystal Palace, they are now beating the likes of Chelsea. And he makes simple tactics.  The problem you are having has zero to do with tactics and 100% with knowing how attributes affect roles duties and their performances. Fix that and you won't have issues. If you believe otherwise, then no one can help you.

[looping]

32 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

There is no such thing in FM, there is nothing in the game that translates to attitude. When players miss tackles, get dribbled past, miss headers, let players take shots instead of tackling its usually cos of something like....not understanding how the attributes come into play. 

 

Anyone can make a decent tactic, but few can tell what attributes affect their players during failures in a game. I have an 8 year old boy who sometimes comes over to my place and he manages Crystal Palace, they are now beating the likes of Chelsea. And he makes simple tactics.  The problem you are having has zero to do with tactics and 100% with knowing how attributes affect roles duties and their performances. Fix that and you won't have issues. If you believe otherwise, then no one can help you.

Ok.

I've read your post https://www.addictedtofm.com/2017/03/ many many times.

For instance, Belotti is missing a lot of chances. Can this be caused by his attributes playing AF(at) role? Ppm?

 

[Craigus89]

19 minutes ago, looping said:

Ok.

I've read your post https://www.addictedtofm.com/2017/03/ many many times.

For instance, Belotti is missing a lot of chances. Can this be caused by his attributes playing AF(at) role? Ppm?

 

Yes. No. Maybe.

As you well know by now, that is impossible to answer without the context. What kind of chances were they? Long shots from outside the box, headers at the near post, tap-ins from through balls, one-on-ones dribbling at the keeper? At what point in the game? Against what opposition?

[looping]

14 minutes ago, Craigus89 said:

What kind of chances were they?

All kinds of chances, all alone with all the time of the world against the gk, even without gk. He missed twice almost inside the goal he decided to pass the ball back. I'll see if I can reload those highlights.

14 minutes ago, Craigus89 said:

At what point in the game?

At any moment.

14 minutes ago, Craigus89 said:

Against what opposition?

Against any one.

It's every match. He has 2-3 chances all alone in front the gk, or even without gk, and he misses it. I start being soft on him, don't worry, team must help you blabla... I even allow him to take penalties, which he probably will miss. After 15 (or so) games without scoring a single goal, I start being hard. 

 

[Craigus89]

And what do you think the cause is? Be Honest.

It could be what Rashidi pointed out related to his attributes. It could be that those chances aren't as easy as you think they are. He could be struggling to score in general because he has a lack of supply and supporting runs/players around him.

You have to understand that only you can fix these problems by analysing various things. Asking broad questions won't give you the answers you need or are looking for and will only lead to more frustration on your part.

[looping]

9 minutes ago, Craigus89 said:

And what do you think the cause is? Be Honest.

It could be what Rashidi pointed out related to his attributes. It could be that those chances aren't as easy as you think they are. He could be struggling to score in general because he has a lack of supply and supporting runs/players around him.

You have to understand that only you can fix these problems by analysing various things. Asking broad questions won't give you the answers you need or are looking for and will only lead to more frustration on your part.

What I'd say: anxiety, but the game shows he is not worried by his lack of goals (I don't know how it is shown in the english version, but in spanish says that if you go to his profile).

So, discarded anxiety:

-chances aren't as easy as I think. Well, he is alone in front the gk, even without gk. His replacement, a youngster, has scored more than him, even when all his attributes are lower in the same situations.

- lack of supply. I'm not complaining about the ball not getting to him. He may lack supply, certainly, but why he misses the chances that are effectively created? Maybe his efficiency is 1/20 chances. He is supposed to be a top scorer.

The same with Paredes. He missed 3 penalties 0/3.

[Wilesy]

He's scored 9 in 6 for Italy, I don't think perceiving him to have anxiety is going to help.

His passing for you is higher, his tackles are better so he's doing more for your team than he is for Italy but at the detriment of the goals he's scoring. His shot on target percentage is similar.

So go look how he plays for Italy, see if that's what you want to re-create. Look at the difference in his chances and where he shines.

Again this is from one screenshot, you are not providing context to anything.

[Rashidi]

Looping you are looping this around and around in one big circle. 

Everything should be taken in context, a role by itself is only a role. If I can get Belotti to score 30 goals a season, its within a context of making him work within a set of roles and attributes in a team and not in isolation. Once you start looking within a context you may improve, but till then you are going to keep going in circles.

[KamyKaze]

19 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

Looping you are looping this around and around in one big circle...

I was beginning to question myself when this pun would be made.

 

All this thread plus his nickname feels like an April Fool's joke build up that never ended

 

From people telling him he changes too many things, to him trying everything all the time, and not realising people telling him to slow down. Then finally seeming to take not of that and then refusing to change anything, to getting back to changing everithyng.

This really seems like over complicating things. I get this from time to time. What I do is take a break to clear up my mind before trying again.

[looping]

1 hour ago, Rashidi said:

Looping you are looping this around and around in one big circle. 

Everything should be taken in context, a role by itself is only a role. If I can get Belotti to score 30 goals a season, its within a context of making him work within a set of roles and attributes in a team and not in isolation. Once you start looking within a context you may improve, but till then you are going to keep going in circles.

For that reason, I posted my preferred 11 in page 2. Is there anything horrendous in terms of attributes/roles&duties?

 

[Craigus89]

51 minutes ago, looping said:

For that reason, I posted my preferred 11 in page 2. Is there anything horrendous in terms of attributes/roles&duties?

 

Yes. No. Maybe. What difference would it make if we gave any of those answers?

WHAT DO YOU OBSERVE IN THE MATCHES!?!?

We can't play the game for you.

[looping]

17 minutes ago, Craigus89 said:

Yes. No. Maybe. What difference would it make if we gave any of those answers?

WHAT DO YOU OBSERVE IN THE MATCHES!?!?

We can't play the game for you.

https://vid.me/kvYd

I observe a total lack of attitude in my players. Why aren't they tackling, even when I have instructed them to get stuck in? My defenders have levels of aggression not below 13 (13,15,18,13) and my 2 cm 14 and 18. Why aren't they doing anything? Why they are not defending? Why they are allowing the opposition to run, pass, shot.. everything?

[BadanieLuck]

I very much get what looping is saying, although the changes he made were just too many.

But I’m having similar issues in this years version. I’m not slouch to this game (ofc not the best as well). Played fm for quite a while now, know how tactics work, how to analyse/set them up (both in game and real life). If I lose, because I get outplayed, so be it. Losing the odd game, where you dominate but simply can’t convert chances, sure happens. But in this years version, I regularly run into situations, like looping, where I just can’t catch a break.

An example. I’m currently managing Villareal. We had a great start to the season, winning 3 out of 3 (including Sevilla) in the league and had the upper hand in our Euro League playoff tie. Tactic is working a treat. Then, first group stage game against Basel away. We dominated the game, created a lot of quality chances (no, no set pieces or long shots, I’m actually watching games), but lost 0-1, because we simply couldn’t convert our chances. It happens, told the players and the press we’ve been unlucky and want to bounce back. Morale and team cohesion was still excellent, at least that’s what the Team Talk Feedback screen says. Next up, Sevilla (H), although we outplayed them we lost 2-3, conceding from 2 set pieces and an own goal. **** game, but still can happen. Told the players how unhappy I was, but morale and team cohesion is still top and players were fired up. First game lost in the league, wasn’t too bothered. Onto the next one. Granada (A), bottom of the league, should be a fairly easy tie. Nope, 0-0. Dominated again, created a lot of quality chances, but players couldn’t hit a barn from 5 yards out. At this point, morale started to drop slightly, understandably, but still was very much in the greens. Next up, Espanyol (A), lost 1-3, 1 cross from deep, 1 set piece and another own goal.

And this goes on and on in this manner, conceding the most horrific goals I’ve ever seen. Own goals, goals where the ball is reflected 3 times until it hits the net and set pieces coupled with my players losing every bit of talent they have, unable to convert the simplest of chances. Still no indication from the game for any reasoning. Morale obviously dropped a bit after a couple of bad games, but was still far from being abysmal (or bad even). Tactic clearly works, as we dominated most of the games (again, I’m not only looking a chances/possession etc., I’m watching the games). And I just don’t find any way out of it, just like looping, except I’m not making those major changes he does. Ofc I do some minor changes according to the opponent I face, everyone does that/should do that. The changes remain limited (mainly mentality and shape) and are often the reason why I have the upper hand. But in most cases, the only way out of this is by restarting the game (and suddenly things work again). I really don’t know why this is happening (so regularly). It’s possible that I may be overlooking something, but like I (and looping) said, we are not new to the game or bad at tactics. The game certainly gives no indication why everything suddenly goes so wrong. I’m not saying anything against bad runs, ofc they happen, but not in this manner, not this way. I can’t shake the feeling that something isn’t right with this game.

[Craigus89]

25 minutes ago, looping said:

https://vid.me/kvYd

I observe a total lack of attitude in my players. Why aren't they tackling, even when I have instructed them to get stuck in? My defenders have levels of aggression not below 13 (13,15,18,13) and my 2 cm 14 and 18. Why aren't they doing anything? Why they are not defending? Why they are allowing the opposition to run, pass, shot.. everything?

That is not an answer. Rashidi has just told you that above.

As for your questions, how can we tell you that? I really don't think this is getting through to you. We have no context, no knowledge of your system (who knows what you are doing, you said all you did was change mentality but you have "get stuck in" selected), no knowledge of you teams morale etc.

I really must stop responding to this as it's clearly going nowhere, I can't help it though

[looping]

1 minute ago, Craigus89 said:

That is not an answer. Rashidi has just told you that above.

As for your questions, how can we tell you that? I really don't think this is getting through to you. We have no context, no knowledge of your system (who knows what you are doing, you said all you did was change mentality but you have "get stuck in" selected), no knowledge of you teams morale etc.

I really must stop responding to this as it's clearly going nowhere, I can't help it though

Define context. What info do you need.

[kandersson]

@looping if Belotti does have lots of chances you might be close to what you want even if he's missing them, I'd say it's actually a good thing. As for why he misses, sometimes strikers go on rough patches, maybe you can try arrange a friendly against very weak teams (like 6th division) to help him see the ball into the net, and improve his morale or mental condition. I do understand your frustration - and find some comments harsh tbh - but personally would deal with that in different ways (No.1 accept the limitations of this edition of the game and adapt to them).

My suggestions would be the same:

1) fire up a FMT save using a very big team in the league you want to play (Barcelona? Madrid?) and experiment with tactics and styles you like so you can remove any doubt that tactical familiarity or poor attributes are the cause of failing/frustration.

2) if you start a 'real' save in full fat FM do not underestimate the importance of team cohesion, tactical familiarity, man management and morale of your team. This means:

- lots of new signings will make your team much less effective until they gel and work as a unit, which can take time - this is reflected by team tactical familiarity, individual tactical familiarity, and team talk feedback by AM (e.g. your players 'have not attained a good level of understanding').

- pre-season is vital, I'd say 10-12 friendlies (against small teams to build morale) are needed to reach the combination of tactical familiarity and morale before first offical match. Maybe boring, but the real loop is starting the season poorly because of not ideal fitness/morale/cohesion/familiarity, so maybe a couple of bad results will make thing worse and any tactic (which seems to be your major issue, but probably it's not) would probably underperform if not fail.

If frustration becomes too much then just take a break from FM for a while, I suggest playing Thimbleweed Park!

[Craigus89]

@looping I'm going to post one last thing here.

I've had a quick look back at your earlier threads. The first few posts in your "learning how to play" thread were exactly the type of thing you should be doing. Analysing the games and making changes based on what you see.

You may be doing that still, but you aren't showing it in this thread so we don't know. It appears to me and probably many other people who have posted here in attempts to help you that you have left that rationality completely behind and are doing things on a whim hoping for the best.

Please don't feel the need to respond to these points or defend yourself. I would suggest you look back through those first few posts you made in that thread and try to do the same things in terms of being methodical about it. Maybe try a strong team and a system that is generally more effective or easier to get right such as a 4-1-2-2-1 (4-3-3) and see how it goes.

Go back and look at that thread.

 

[shadster]

2 hours ago, looping said:

https://vid.me/kvYd

I observe a total lack of attitude in my players. Why aren't they tackling, even when I have instructed them to get stuck in? My defenders have levels of aggression not below 13 (13,15,18,13) and my 2 cm 14 and 18. Why aren't they doing anything? Why they are not defending? Why they are allowing the opposition to run, pass, shot.. everything?

Saw the video, but I can't see lack of attitude. Your mildfilder and full back closed down and tried to tackle.  The only thing I see on that video that is not good enough, is the fact that the second central mildfieder is caught out of position and that creates a chance. But he rushes to try to intercept the ball as soon as the pass is made. So, I don't think there's lack of attitude, they try to win the ball as soon as the ball goes to their zone.

[looping]

55 minutes ago, shadster said:

Saw the video, but I can't see lack of attitude. Your mildfilder and full back closed down and tried to tackle.  The only thing I see on that video that is not good enough, is the fact that the second central mildfieder is caught out of position and that creates a chance. But he rushes to try to intercept the ball as soon as the pass is made. So, I don't think there's lack of attitude, they try to win the ball as soon as the ball goes to their zone.

I don't get this. How you can't see my left fb just watching (for instance)? Why they don't show a bit of passion? Tackle hard oh my god, yellow card is ok but at least do something they are going to score.

I won't complain if the tackle is missed but do something. I'm not expecting my players to score wonderful goals and make spectacular passes. I want them to show passion, at least.

[shadster]

Your left FB is beated by a winger. It happens hundreds of times all the weekends. And the winger receives the ball in the edge of the area. If the full back attempted a tackle, it probabbly would result on a penalty. As I said, the only thing that I see wrong on that video is the position of the 2nd center mildfield player, who get caught on "nobody's land".

[looping]

22 minutes ago, D_LO_ said:

I agree, @looping your expectations are unrealistic, you need to appreciate the limitations of the animations (of which there are many) 

https://vid.me/ZyAb

Do you see the difference?

[shadster]

8 minutes ago, looping said:

https://vid.me/ZyAb

Do you see the difference?

The defensive behavior is exactly the same. The behavior of the left full back is exactly the same. The difference, in the first video a central mildfielder is caught out of position, resulting in your defense loose the balance. The second video as they don't loose balance, you have numerical advantage, allowing the central defender to help the FB.

[looping]

24 minutes ago, shadster said:

The defensive behavior is exactly the same. The behavior of the left full back is exactly the same. The difference, in the first video a central mildfielder is caught out of position, resulting in your defense loose the balance. The second video as they don't loose balance, you have numerical advantage, allowing the central defender to help the FB.

In the first video, defenders just watch.

In the second video, my central defender tackles aggressively. Twice.

This is what I see.

[Svenc]

5 hours ago, BadanieLuck said:

Next up, Sevilla (H), although we outplayed them we lost 2-3, conceding from 2 set pieces and an own goal. **** game, but still can happen. Told the players how unhappy I was, but morale and team cohesion is still top and players were fired up. First game lost in the league, wasn’t too bothered. Onto the next one. Granada (A), bottom of the league, should be a fairly easy tie. Nope, 0-0. Dominated again, created a lot of quality chances, but players couldn’t hit a barn from 5 yards out. At this point, morale started to drop slightly, understandably, but still was very much in the greens. Next up, Espanyol (A), lost 1-3, 1 cross from deep, 1 set piece and another own goal.

And this goes on and on in this manner, conceding the most horrific goals I’ve ever seen. Own goals, goals where the ball is reflected 3 times until it hits the net and set pieces coupled with my players losing every bit of talent they have, unable to convert the simplest of chances. The game certainly gives no indication why everything suddenly goes so wrong. I’m not saying anything against bad runs, ofc they happen, but not in this manner, not this way. I can’t shake the feeling that something isn’t right with this game.

From my experience, this tends to be exaggerated, and is influenced by perception bias/frustration. Upon uploads, the big chances are oft not that big in terms of numbers (if FM is accurate, good chances should be expected to be missed, including one on ones which are converted at 1 in 3 to 1 in 5 rates in football by the best). Likewise, the poor opponent "playing like Barcelona" was but an AI previously having 6 players on defend duty sitting back all match switching duties and finally being able to keep the ball in the opposition third some. The good run prior was influenced by more luck than was admitted to, including the fixture list. And the own goals  turned out to happen once in 15. Not questioning the frustration, but merely the perception. FTR, all the morale/mental stuff isn't that OP that decent players would make mistakes left and right... there's a reason why you can ship goals against the bottom of the league that hasn't won a match in 15. Matches like that certainly happen, and it can feel streaky.

What I still don't understand is the pattern looping claims to run into everysave -- even if you are bad or completely new you would hit on a winner due to sheer persistence/luck. It was even said he tried download tactics, he still tanked. I can't relate, I don't understand. Otherwise it appears some brains are wired for this kind of game, others not so much. Has little to do with "intelligence", more with the ambiguity and kind of challenge. This isn't a strategy game where you can press X so that Y happens guaranteed, as otherwise it wouldn't be a manager and/or football sim. It's dealing in probabilities and trade-offs, and he's pretty hung up in all the details and draws all kinds of contradictions, possibly overreactions and is bombarded with different advice (multiple ways to skin a cat in a game like this). You could only really help IF AT ALL(!) if you sat right next to his... that's my impression. :-)

 

tldr; whilst the game has to simulate streaks somehow, and isn't forwards missing chances (Dortmund 2014/2015 season) plus defenders making errors leading to goals a part of it, imo not quite how this works either. I know that Rashidi will disagree with all of your post, but he's to the ME what Neo is to the Matrix.  https://www.addictedtofm.com/fm15-unbelievable-unprecedented-unreal-wba/

[looping]

If anybody is watching Juve-Barça, can you tell me what defensive formations are both teams using?

[looping]

Ok.

TI: be more disciplined, stick to positions, get stuck in.

PI: only to gk, roll it out, slow pace down, distribute to centerbacks.

 

The idea behind this tactic is:

- Compactness, reducing space between the lines.

- Aggression, tackling hard opponents.

- Discipline and teamwork.

- Fast transitions, based on quick movement of the ball and direct passing: defenders/deep lying playmaker-target man-Advanced Forward/Wide Midfielders

- Wide play and crosses, provided by two aggressive wide midfielders 

 

Great ideas came from here https://www.addictedtofm.com/leicester-city-on-football-manager/

My team is playing the way I want, despite some defensive issues persist.

 

As has been explained, my gk is instructed to roll it out, slow pace down, distribute to centerbacks (not that I want to play out the defense, it's just the gk passes the ball to the opponent)

My defense is pretty orthodox. Nothing fancy. I'd like to use BPD but I don't have cb with passing and vision abilities.

Midfield is based on two holders, one more creative and the other more destroyer. The dlp role I think is crucial because he gets the ball deep and tries killer balls moving the ball quickly from the back to the front. Furthermore, h he holds position which provides extra cover in midfield.

Down the flanks, we have two aggressive midfielders who are expected to be a real threat for the opponent and, very important, track back to defend.

Up front, there is a combination of  a Target Man, the target of the direct passes sent from deep positions and an AF as a cutting edge.

Not rocket science.

 

Very fluid shape provides great compactness which is needed not only because my idea follows this principle but because 442 creates big gaps between players that need to be reduced. https://community.sigames.com/topic/364527-developing-my-4-4-2/ Here @herne79 used different instructions to achieve the same effect.

To some extent, very fluid shape is a bit complicated in terms of modifying the mentality; in very fluid shape, players don't deviate from team mentality so going from standard to control produces a huge effect. For that reason, I stayed on standard which is a good and moderated starting point. That doesn't mean I can't change it, but being aware going to control may produce a big effort.

"The combination of Very Fluid shape with Standard mentality offers synergy due to it's balance. The entire team attacks and defends as a unit.

The downside (if misunderstood) of very fluid is that it effectively magnifies your mentality changes massively. For example, using very fluid + attack means you have 4 David Luiz in your back-line. Using very fluid + defend means your attackers are very risk averse and primarily defend.

If understood correctly, tweaking mentality at the correct stage of a game can be a real weapon for you."

https://community.sigames.com/topic/373361-arrigo-sacchis-4-4-2-very-fluid/

 

Get stuck in TI, has only one purpose: aggression and tackling. We got 3 red cards in 10 games, a bit concerning, but it's part of the deal.

Be more disciplined tries to kill creative freedom coming from very fluid shape. My players have their roles and duties, which shows them what I want them to do. There is no point in user a DLP and a TM and then tell the players "guys do whatever you want because you know better".

Stick to positions follows a similar logic and also helps to restrict space https://community.sigames.com/topic/400065-building-a-squad-to-win/

 

Bonus track. Two instructions I didn't use and why:

- More direct passing. My players are already direct passing due to the presence of a TM

- Pass into space. My players are already passing into space because we've createdspace/the space has been offered.

 

 

 

Some examples of how the team plays:

https://vid.me/Eax0

Here you can see we are defending quite compact (maybe wm too wide), interception by right full back, tm fights for the second ball, dlp gets the ball and tries a killer pass to Belotti who scored.

 

https://vid.me/FC6W

This is a different goal. Here the opposition is defending deep. Great great pass by cb (not expected to do so but I'm not going to complain) to the aggressive forward run of my right wm, cross and goal.

 

https://vid.me/ewFt

Defending deep, we win the ball back and a direct pass to tm who tries a killer ball to Belotti. With 2 touches we went from our box to their. Excellent.

 

https://vid.me/6HM9

And this is possibly my preferred goal. Excellent. Great, great transition, three touches and we completely opened the opponent. This is how football must be played, in my opinion.

 

Performances by Calleri playing TM role are shocking. He is not tall, not specially good at heading and he lacks aggression...

Now, this is going to stop working. This tactic, even if it's perfectly created, relies on having some space available so against stubbornly defensive sides I will struggle. In addition, despite the defensive compactness, I have problems with AMs, CM surging from deep and withdrawn strikers. Basically, to some extent, I can manage 2 vs 3 situations in midfield but not 2 vs 4. This is a typical play:

https://vid.me/ITQh

I don't want to derail from this so when I start losing I will stop playing and I will start thinking on how to tweak the tactic to be successful again. Now I know how my team plays so this should be an achievable goal, I hope.

 

 

[difran8]

11 hours ago, Svenc said:

Otherwise it appears some brains are wired for this kind of game, others not so much. Has little to do with "intelligence", more with the ambiguity and kind of challenge. This isn't a strategy game where you can press X so that Y happens guaranteed, as otherwise it wouldn't be a manager and/or football sim. It's dealing in probabilities and trade-offs, and he's pretty hung up in all the details and draws all kinds of contradictions, possibly overreactions and is bombarded with different advice

Very accurate. Most of those facing repetitive failures share some kind of mentality that doesn't bond well with the logic of the game. And i believe it's this one you describe here

 

@looping: I've had many frustrations in the past. Now, i don't think i ve even come close to nailing it, but at least i can have a 15-20 goal striker every season, regardless of squad strength. I don't even care about defense or attack or anything in isolation. I just want to see some acceptable football overall and have a solid attack. From there everything kind of falls into place as you find a good balance.

What helped me was to 1) limit the variables. Only mentality, fluidity and roles can change. Those affect 90% of the way you play anyway.  2) See how exactly are the different mentality-fluidity settings played on pitch. Very important, as, like you, i had the notions in my head but i didnt have a grasp of how these translated into the actual play. For example, a fluid 442 is pretty slow moving in the way it develops. The wings will wait before they fire a cross. Your goal moves may come seemingly out of nowhere. The structured 442 is very quick. Those same attackers (even on the same mentality as on the fluid442) will behave super aggressively and push the line forward. They will go for the throughball, the long pass, the cross at every opportunity.

Another example: On a 4411 you were trying in a previous thread you were set in 'fluid' and the 1 at the top with an attack duty. Im not sure why this happens (i have a suspicion) , but 4411fluid works better with support on top and an attack duty behind. But, you have to see these things in play. To sum up, stop reading, start trying, limit your changes, and dont expect everything to work because it works in your head

 

[Armistice]

I am not extremely successful with counter-attacking strategies because generally I like to play free-flowing football so I just stick to a counter-attacking tactic when I am massively expected to lose, but I can give you a few tips imo.

 

First of all, 4-4-2 is a decent shout for counter-attacking football, but you have to be careful that it is not going to work to counter teams that sit back and defend just like you do. So here you can try to switch to an attacking tactic or just commit more men forward. It is up to you.

Secondly, Very Fluid do more things than just make the team compact, you can make the team  more compact through player roles and duties, which is what I advise you to do.

Thirdly, you do know that the counter-attack is triggered by default and has nothing to do with your TIs when it's happened, so you keep that for in-possession football, but outside counter-attacks.

You have to be more practical and keep things simple, watch your favorite counter-attacking team and see how they defend and how they attack and also how they score their goals and then try to translate that into FM, in simple terms. You can evolve from there and improve the tactic. You're overcomplicating by taking people's ideas (Cleon's, Rashidi's) and trying to combine them with yours and then you get something you don't know how to fix. You've got to understand a few starting points out of their guides and then adapt them into your own thoughout tactic and see how it works.

 

I hope you turn  this around. Good luck.

 

One more thing, you've got to do your attacking pattern more complex than a striker looking to score, a targetman that will supply him and two wingers. Imagine the same set-up goes in when teams defend deep against you and don't commit forward. Your attack pattern is very predictable, two wingers looking to beat one or even two men then cross and hopefully they find someone in the box, or play it to the TM. That's very hard to beat the opponent when they're having many players behind the ball.

[looping]

As usual:

Everything back to normal:

- Comical defense

- Belotti missing any possible chance

 

Now, whatever I do will fail. It really doesn't matter. It's the same story all the time.

[Wilesy]

You lost to Real 1-0 and Barca 2-0, I'd not call that comical defending. Again, why is he missing now? What has changed? Just showing some results does nothing. 

[Craigus89]

18 minutes ago, looping said:

As usual

Everything back to normal

Now, whatever I do will fail. It really doesn't matter. It's the same story all the time.

Indeed it is.

[Armistice]

There must be something YOU do wrong, because if it happens the same thing all the time, surely it's not the game at fault, is it?

[looping]

I'm not saying is the game fault. I'm saying I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong.

As for Belotti, a few examples:

https://vid.me/E8n0

https://vid.me/FSFW

https://vid.me/vWvp

https://vid.me/3L3a

https://vid.me/2K2i

https://vid.me/yYyo

https://vid.me/iXiH 

https://vid.me/e6et

This last is not Belotti but is my preferred one. My striker decides to leave the ball there. Very nice.

 

As for the comical defense

https://vid.me/Tpuv

https://vid.me/qxHM

https://vid.me/NGQT

 

Against Barcelona and Madrid I didn't even care. Suarez scored 2 wondergoals and James a free kick. Malaga scored the second goal after a corner. I can understand these goals but my comical defense not.

 

Edit: at least, it's not only me.

[Craigus89]

13 minutes ago, looping said:

I'm not saying is the game fault. I'm saying I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong.

That's because you haven't tried. You've had bad results and come on here to moan.