FM17 - The community formation experiment

[westy8chimp]

2 minutes ago, noikeee said:

Acerbi and specially Letschert as wider stopper CBs. They make a ton of interceptions for me, and Letschert's scored a few times going up for corners.

ah yes Acerbi very reliable... I'm approaching December though and some high interest in him and Berardi .. so I'm rotating them in preparation for them possibly leaving. Letschert is also on rotation as I really cannot decide between him, Cannovaro & Antei. Letschert tends to play Europe...takes a good free-kick too

[eriktous]

Acerbi's a rock for me; has scored a couple of cracking headers from corners as well. Can't get anything out of Berardi, useless git.

Edit: by the way, is Donnarumma the only under 19 player in the Serie A? He seems to win the LGI player of the month award four out of five times, and when he doesn't he comes in second. What's the name of that young midfielder in Sassuolo's squad, Pellegrini or something? He just has to play and he gets an automatic third in the award; get a 6.9 or better and he's second.

[Jambo98]

I am struggling badly with my formation  on my first time through, i used it to learn the squad, try out some ideas, and get an overall playing style i was happy with. By about December i had found something i felt happy with. Decided to restart and use that as my new base.  Breezed through the pre-season and won every leg of the euro qualifiers. All good. 

Season starts, lose my first FIVE games in all competitions, look like a complete disjointed mess.  Calmly close down the game and walk away muttering..........

[eriktous]

I went over the thread but couldn't find it, even though I thought it had been discussed, but what's the rule on transfers in the second window? Anything goes, or just two transfers and one loan in the entire season?

I'm asking, because I started with a test save and didn't want to pay attention to transfers, so let my DoF handle them. He only brought in one loan signing in the first window, but he brought in a second in the second window in January, and even though this was meant as a test save and results have been inconsistent, I have half a mind to just continue with this instead of starting from scratch.

I'm starting to develop some weird attachment to my U18 front line of Porrini-Romairone-Raspadori; not because of their great attributes (although they did rack up 32 goals and 9 assists in 24 U18 games among them so far), but because it just sounds so awesome.

[syemo]

4 hours ago, westy8chimp said:

which of the starting squad are people finding most effective/valuable?? For me;

Positano as my wide midfielder on attack, apart from the occasional dribble into a cul de sac. he performing greatly now out for 8 weeks

Defrel playing as my lone striker.

Pellegrini in my midfield scored a few goals from late runs, playing excellently as my BWM and makes the 2 centre paring a little more balanced when he's in picks up some cards so just had a suspension and we go and lose to chievo.

[cregan]

Duncan was Mr Dependable, while Mazzitelli turned out to be a very able deputy for him in the combative/holding role. Sensi and Pellegrini likewise on the creative side.

[westy8chimp]

I loaned Mazzitelli out .. then after the event re-evaluated his stats and thought it may have been a mistake... but he didn't make the cut in my squad registration ... so many DMs.

[nogz]

(Disclaimer - I am new to the football manager scene. Much of my analysis of what I am doing will be on my little knowledge that I have obtained from lurking on this site for a couple weeks. This is also the first time I am trying to analyse what I do in some detail, so if at any point, my analysis is flawed or can be improved please do advise me, I would enjoy being tutored in that way. In essence this is a learner attempting to give his viewpoint on the game as he attempts to learn it).

I have been assigned the 352 Sweeper. I've never played with a sweeper or without fullbacks/wingbacks so I am looking forward to the challenge and getting it to work for the team. So before I did anything on start up I wanted to see what exactly this system could do without any of my alterations, simply the preset tactic with fitting players for each position, no team and player instructions nor any roles. Our first game was against Dnipro which we won 5-3. They played the whole game with a 4-1-2-3 DM Wide and made subs throughout where as we stuck with the same 11 for the full 90 minutes as I wanted to see how the players I picked would perform for the full 90 minutes.
 

The first goal was ours and it was a strange one, it took simply 2 touches after our keeper Consigli cleared the ball out to find the back of the opposition net. A headed flick-on from Sensi in midfield gave Defrel a ball to run onto which he put in the back of the net. The second came soon after and out numbers advantage in the middle allowed Sensi and Duncan to dictate the play and give Magnanelli some time outside the box to shoot and score. In the build up play Matri dropped deep into the right midfield slot to pick up the ball and run at the opposition which meant Dnipro had to bring a centre midfielder across to track him allowing the passing play and man advantage outside the box to work well. Just as soon as we had scored another, we conceded our first. They stretched the play and their winger got ahead of our wide midfielder Ragusa which allowed him to cross the ball into our box which so happened to fall to their other winger who also beat the his wide midfielder Politano and tapped it in. Our third was a complete replica of our second goal, Matri dropped deep and picked up the ball on the right and played it across the the edge of their area which dragged all three of their central midfield to our left side so we shifted the ball back to the right side and Politano struck a beauty from just outside the box. We conceded just before halftime and it was a ball over the top which even beat our Sweeper Cannavaro that was headed into the net from their striker. We conceded our 3rd and it was soon 3-3 . We were probing around their box using our dominance but it didn't amount to anything and they cleared the ball upfield and won it, Dnipro ran at our defence in a 3 on 3 attack which didn't end well for us. We got our fourth by winning the ball in our own half and giving it to Matri who ran down the right side and beat a couple players, he played it into the box where we had all the other 6 attacking players ready to tap it in, but it was Duncan who got his foot to it. Our last of the game and to make it 5-3 was the same but on the other side of the field, the ball was won in our half and we countered down the left side where it was Defrel who beat his man and passed it to Matri inside the box who scored. 

This average position map shows our positions when on the ball (in green) and that of when we didn't have the ball (in orange). We didn't struggle in the centre of the park, if anything there were sometimes too many bodies within a small space, although it worked well, at times we could have spread even better by pushing one further up and two deeper or vice versa. Our width in attack seemed good, especially when counter-attacking for the last two goals, in which the link up play was really great. The area in which we need to improve is quite obvious, our centre backs are very spread out at times and when we have just lost the ball and are against a front three like Dnipro had it often left a 3 on 3 attack. This is obviously due to our lack of fullbacks and our midfield wide unit not playing as defensively when we lost the ball. Another area of concern is the amount of forward runners we had when on the counter, our whole team except the back three were inside Dnipro's box for the last two goals which leave us very open to being countered. Lastly, the ball over the top is something to think about, I don't think playing a high line is a great idea since our defenders lack pace and acceleration, but it could be worth thinking about playing a deeper line to avoid this, perhaps a look at how changing Cannavaro's role from Sweeper to Libero affects our shape.

 

In the next game, which is against Wolfsburg, I want to toy with our team shape and see the difference between a more structured style of play against a more fluid style of play, again, without any changes to the default formations and without any instructions. Additionally, a look at the squad to see who won't be needed in the upcoming season and what areas need strengthening.

P.S - I am interested in starting a career update thread in the relevant section with this save and sticking to the experiment rules, how many would be interested? I'm not the best player but I think regular analysis like this and other types (as I learn how) can only make me better (I hope?). 

 

[Jambo98]

3 hours ago, eriktous said:

I went over the thread but couldn't find it, even though I thought it had been discussed, but what's the rule on transfers in the second window? Anything goes, or just two transfers and one loan in the entire season?

I'm asking, because I started with a test save and didn't want to pay attention to transfers, so let my DoF handle them. He only brought in one loan signing in the first window, but he brought in a second in the second window in January, and even though this was meant as a test save and results have been inconsistent, I have half a mind to just continue with this instead of starting from scratch.

I'm starting to develop some weird attachment to my U18 front line of Porrini-Romairone-Raspadori; not because of their great attributes (although they did rack up 32 goals and 9 assists in 24 U18 games among them so far), but because it just sounds so awesome.

The idea was 2 transfers plus one loan for the entire season  

If you have ended up with 2 loans an done transfer (or 2 loans and no transfers its sounds like?) i cant imagine it makes any difference  

[cregan]

1 hour ago, westy8chimp said:

I loaned Mazzitelli out .. then after the event re-evaluated his stats and thought it may have been a mistake... but he didn't make the cut in my squad registration ... so many DMs.

I find with 3 DC + 2 DMC formations you need pace (ideally) in the DMs because they'll inevitably need to cover the flanks at times, especially if the oppositions on the counter. Blondini and Magnanelli were too slow for me (and I ended up selling the latter; couldn't give Blondini away) so the kids got more game time. 

[westy8chimp]

Update 11 December (having played my allotted hour! hopefully I can get another hour in after the Arsenal game)

Just qualified top of the euro group

still top of the league and creating a nice cushion from the euro places

pros - 11 clean sheets in the league from 16 games.. and scoring well too, very few injuries, not many tactical tweaks now that im run of form, no unhappy players

cons - concede a lot of chances down my right side where I have a CB (cover) Wing back (attack) and RPM (support). Concede more in Euro than in league.. not sure why, I do rotate players for Euro though so could just be strength of B team letting me down.

Obvious solution to put a DM/Anchor in as defensive role ... my other DM is already a regista... and I need someone to sit infront of the CB cover as my wing back leaves him exposed. I don't want to change the WB because it's working well as one of three attacking roles. At the moment I'm allowing the risk as I don't want to unsettle a winning tactic. If it continues to be exploited its something I will review.

 

[itchycoo]

4-2-2-2 DM Narrow

With the prefered line-up.

Transfers:

Memphis Depay (Man Utd) loan

Dennis Aogo (Shalke) 1.1M. Versitile player who will mainly be used as back up left back.

Jonas Olsson (WBA). In the first week both Cannavaro and Acerbi got themselves injured, so I wanted an extra centre back. In hinesight I should have waited and saved one transfer to January if I need some replacement then.

Results

A bit random. Some great results, as winning 3-1 away against Napoli - pretty good away side over all. Some stupid draws at home. Depay scoring two against United in the EL was quite pleasing (one labled as an own goal - it was a deflected free kick).

[Jambo98]

Loads more great posts of how people are adapting here - great reading. 

I am in danger of not learning anything here as i bounce from one problem to the next. Time to go back to basics and make sure i have a core plan for how i see this working. I think i have a vision in my head, but i need to draw it out and set out some of my playing style. 

Meantime, in my experiments one annoying / worrying aspect was that when i use a Half Back, the role does not seem to work as intended? he never makes the DC's split, which is kinda crucial to how i saw my system working  I Seem to recall from at least one thread on here that this was an issue in previous patches, and im guessing still exists  

[cregan]

1 minute ago, Jambo98 said:

Meantime, in my experiments one annoying / worrying aspect was that when i use a Half Back, the role does not seem to work as intended? he never makes the DC's split, which is kinda crucial to how i saw my system working  I Seem to recall from at least one thread on here that this was an issue in previous patches, and im guessing still exists  

Yup, it's been a long-running gripe from at least as far back as FM16's launch (Ö-zil-to-the-Arsenal went as far as a lengthy bug report thread that got no satisfaction from SI). HB works fine with 2 DCs if your wide backs are in the WB strata, but doesn't work at all with a flat four (or, in my experience earlier, a flat three).

[Jambo98]

Well, thats annoying and pretty much nukes my main idea for a tactic  Oh well, will post it up anyway to try and get feedback on the thought process and execution. 

[Jambo98]

So, finally, my attempt at taking a (somewhat) methodical approach to things with my given shape. 

Its interesting, being given a set formation. Usually my first question would be "how do i want to play" and build from there, but with this experiment i have to allow the answer to that question to be somewhat shaped by the card i have been dealt. It is not to say you cannot created different playing styles with the same formation, but in particular with one which is so narrow, i think i have to let it shape my mind. 

So my key points of how i see us playing:

• High tempo, short sharp passing - I have 5 players in the middle of the pitch who can all take part in the opponents half, but they are all close together. Lets embrace this and try and work lots of triangles and try and create things that way. This needs technically proficient players to make it work, and we have some of those, as well as the option to suppliment via the transfer market
• Using width both as an attacking weapon, and a means to help create space for my many central players to operate. 
• Without the ball, i do not see us playing a high press, despite the obvious temptation to do so with 3 central attacking players. We are just too exposed on the flanks, and a central press would just let opponents knock it to fullbacks who have the run of the pitch. 
• I see us defending somewhat deep, to avoid balls over the top and round the corner with our FB's potentially pushed up. I want to defend with 3 strong central players and one who will do a bit more chasing around. I have reasonably big good in the air DC's so would prefer to face crosses than balls over the top
• Whilst i wont press as such, i do want my ST to be busy and closing down opposing defenders so they dont have all the time in the world,

So how do i turn that into reality. 

Well, mentality wise i am taking the easy option and starting out on "standard" for now. Team shape though, well, i have really gone back and forth on that. I thought about very fluid, because i love playing as one unit, but on reflection, i do not think this system really suits that. I tried highly structured, because i can (in my mind) seperate us very much into defensive unit and attacking unit, and i also wanted to create more vertical space. In the end, i am going to go with "structured".  I wavered on leaving it on Flexible, but i do see that we are broadly 2 units, but not exclusively. The 2 x DC and the DM as well as the defend duty CM should be only really defensive phase (although the DM naturally will look to recycle the ball). One fullback (support duty), one CM (support duty) and one AM (support duty) should be my transition players. One fullback (Attack duty), one AM(attack duty) and my ST should be my many attacking outlets.  

Roles and Duties next.......well, i drew this out to outline how i want us to play in terms of transition  / attacking phase (blue arrows) and to try and make sure i have passing outlets for each player in possession (yellow dotted lines). It looks a bit like a kids drawing but......

A few thoughts on Roles / Duties

Defending - gone with standard DC's and a HB to make up a 3 and get the DC's wider to cover when the fullbacks go up (this wont work, as noted above.....but lets see how it plays anyway). I have also gone with a BWM as a fourth defensive player to hopefully keep us solid, and as the one player in my midfield who should natural press the opposition somewhat (and hopefully allow him to go out wide when my LB is up field)

Transition - Split duties on the FB's. When observing before, i found that attack duty meant they went forward to early, and were not a passing outlet for the DM / DC's, support duty meant they never quite got high enough to be a passing outlet for the AMC's.....well, lets do one of each and give ourselves!  both options.  The AP is going to be our key creative hook, responsible for initiating and hopefully driving the high tempo passing moves. he has the attack duty FB down his side as a passing option. The BBM is the one player i am least decided on probably. I want a support duty there i feel for sure, and BBM should get high enough to be a passing outlet for the AP as we retain possession, and also move into the space the SS might vacate. 

Attacking - As well as one of the FB's being an attack duty, i really need one of the AMC's to take on some of the scoring burden. SS feels the natural way to do this, but i will need to see if this fits with the possession / tempo approach - there is a risk it doe snot and i might refer to an AM(a). The striker role always causes me issues in this system. I want him to stay more central, hence DLF over CF. I have given him an attack duty for now, as i like the balance of that role and duty. One to monitor closely. 

For my Team Instructions, the what and the why

Retain Possession - This might seem at odds with "higher tempo" in my stated desired playing style, but i do want us to really focus on passing it around between the transition and attacking players, waiting for a gap or a run from one of them. It will slow the tempo, but i will offset that later. High tempo possession is probably very ambitious, but i feel i have a few players to make it work. 

Play out of defence - This might be overkill with the above TI in place, but i really, really want to avoid hoofball and find that i need this TI in any tactic to achieve that. A "plan b" might be to remove this and have at least one DC look for direct balls to the SS

Work ball into box - I genuinely cannot create a tactic without this instruction, or else it ends with 80% long shots. It does also reflect that I  want my midfielders inter-playing, not smashing it from range. 

Drop Deeper - As mentioned above, i do not see us operating a high press, I would rather stand off a bit and allow us time to potentially get the FB;s back in position as the opposition play in front of us. We have a decent keeper, so i can deal with the opposition banging in long shots. I also hope the HB can help clog up the middle and counter balance the chance of teams doing to us what i want to do to them - using the time i give to technically play through me. 

Be More Expressive - A little undecided on this one. Mainly added to counteract the reduction in CF that comes from "structured" - i do want some creativity from my attacking players, but this might also lead to us ignoring my desired style of play. Will closely monitor and may remove and replace with PI for a couple of key players. 

Higher Tempo - To create the desired tempo between my close together players, and also to somewhat offset the adjustment made by a later TI

Dribble Less - Again to support the vision of fast tempo passing. I might add a PI to the SS, depending on what i see, to get him to ignore this / offset it. 

 

I have very little in the way of PI's to start  - Keeper distribution as always, and shoot less for all support and attack duty players (to reduce long shots again). 

Player wise, i am probably about to start from scratch with this. I enough DM / MC who are all round types to cover off competently at HB / BWM / BBM (although potentially Sensi is not a great fit for any). I will add at least one more creative player, almost certainly Evandro for AMC as i have signed him both other times! Ricci is also a nice creative type with good first touch / passing / technique, and Berardi also possesses those qualities. Delfrel does not, which worries me a bit and in my second save i sold him and replaced him with Luan (The Gremio one )who does have the type of attributes i want in my AMC's. That said, Delfrel, and Politano to some extent, are more direct running types which i might want in my SS role. Decisions decisions........

I also need a plan B, but lets try and get plan A working to some level first..........all feedback on the ideas and execution very welcome!

[nogz]

15 minutes ago, Jambo98 said:

I also need a plan B, but lets try and get plan A working to some level first..........all feedback on the ideas and execution very welcome!

On paper it looks like the system would work well, look forward to seeing how you adapt with the defensive midfielder issue. Have you tried playing one fullback on FB/D and another on WB/A and then the DM as a DM/D? Perhaps like that you would have a a strict back 3 line with a quick passing option in front, perhaps the DM would venture closer towards the CD's making it almost like a back four. In my head it seems possible, whether it works on the ME is a different question all together. 

[Jambo98]

9 minutes ago, nogz said:

On paper it looks like the system would work well, look forward to seeing how you adapt with the defensive midfielder issue. Have you tried playing one fullback on FB/D and another on WB/A and then the DM as a DM/D? Perhaps like that you would have a a strict back 3 line with a quick passing option in front, perhaps the DM would venture closer towards the CD's making it almost like a back four. In my head it seems possible, whether it works on the ME is a different question all together. 

Thanks - Yeah the HB thing is a crock of sh*t to be honest, based on my first game. He plays nothing like an HB  

I have not thought about the hybrid back 3 / back 4 in this formation (have used it before, re-creating Conte's italy at one point). My fear here is just that we will struggle for passing outlets wide, unless i can make one of the CM's go wide when we have possession, which i have not found easy. 

Certainly going to need to try the DM(d) and a few other roles to see what works best at staying close to the DC's. Seems like splitting them is impossible. 

[nogz]

352 Sweeper

Game 2: Friendly vs Wolfsburg

I was quite pleased from a lot of what I saw in our first game so I decided on leaving the tactic on complete default for just one more game to see how we fared against a reputable side. The only change I made from the first game is that I decided I would play the first half in a structured team shape and the second half in a fluid team shape. I don't know too much about how these two different team shapes work in essence so today's game would be a good way to see how. Wolfsburg lined up in a formation that could cause a lot of problems to us if we didn't play well. The dangerous 4231 Wide. I knew we were weak on the flanks but I was interested in seeing how their attacking midfielder would get on.

The game started off so fast, our first attack of the game saw us take the lead early due to some good play from a throw in. Our midfield was able to string some passes together and give Defrel some space to find Matri in the box who netted home. It was soon 2-0 as a Defrel and Matri switched roles and it was a deep cross from Matri that found Defrel who headed into the net. 24 minutes in we found ourselves 3-0 ahead, I actually couldn't believe that this seemed to be working so well. The midfield genius, Sensi played a killer pass to Matri who slotted home. Game over? No, less than 60 seconds later Wolfsburg got their first goal and it was Mayoral who netted. Our Letschert was dragged out wide which left a 2v2 in the middle of the box and Mayoral was quickest to the ball once it was whopped in. We responded well a couple minutes later by going 4-1 up. It was a fluke goal really, a corner into the box which they cleared only as far as Defrel who calmly put it in. Just before the first half ended we conceded, ANOTHER CROSS, found Mayoral, AGAIN. The lack of presence in our fullback positions was costing us goals.

Halftime (4-2)

I switched the shape to fluid to see what it could do in the second half, perhaps we would defend as a unit a little better. Boy, was I wrong. We conceded within a minute, an unchallenged cross after the successful defence of a corner. A couple minutes later and before I knew it, they drew level, 4-4. We lost the ball in their half after applying some pressure and they countered us by placing a killer through ball round my centre backs, Caliguiri was too fast and levelled the scoring. After this point for the rest of the half we were under a lot of pressure and in the last few minutes of the game, a goal. We countered them and got to their area but their defender was able to stop us, only for Duncan to steal it and smash it home and give us the 5-4 win. What a hectic game.

The change from structure to fluid was incredible, whilst we defended well at times given the circumstances of being stretched, a fluid approach did not make us more compact. It confined us more into our small third of the pitch and for Wolfsburg to play the ball around us. If I'd have left the game on structured I don't think we would have been contained as much as we were despite the weakness on the flanks. We hardly played the ball around like we did in the first half and across the majority of the previous game.

After these two friendlies I am able to see where our strengths and weaknesses lie without forcing a particular style of play. Adapting myself to the formation per se, I'll look to create a more fluent and well round midfield core that can dictate games better both defensively and offensively. Hopefully, I can figure out what roles I want our wide midfielders to play as there are blatantly obvious gaps behind them even on regular automatic duties. The link up play between the strikers has been very good so far and I am looking forward to seeing Berardi return soon even though Defrel and Matri are knocking them in.

Transfer wise: I am looking for a player to play in the right midfield role. Ragusa isn't suited to that position and he's been our worst attacker on the pitch for two games now and it has been very evident. Elsewhere, Gazzola and Dell'Orco are fullbacks only. They don't fit into the system I'm using so I will look to move them on. Pomini was an extra keeper so he will not be required. All have been placed in the reserves until I can sell them on. I am not well versed in football manager yet so there might be some obvious choices to sign in the first season that I am unaware of (I see a lot of Depay loans on this thread), so increasing the number of scouts and scouting several nations will be my way of player recruitment if it does occur. 

 

 

 

[Parri]

Really want to join this!

[Jambo98]

@Parri - 4231 DM wide (there is possibly an argument that this is too "common" - if you think so let me know and i will redo for you exlcuding this one)

[noikeee]

Hey Jambo don't rule out the halfback completely. I've been using it ahead of a back 4 for quite a few seasons in my regular career. Sure it doesn't work like intended, by not splitting the CBs, which makes it less than ideal to build up patiently from the back, but it does still provide a 3rd man at the back to cover for attacking fullbacks. Most of the time the AI are terrible at exploiting the space we give out at the wings anyway. You might find that most time the 3 men at the back (2 DCs + halfback), despite not being in ideal positions, are still enough to cover counter-attacks. If needed extra cover, you can tell one of the other fullbacks to stay behind (although I can see why this would be annoying with a wingerless system in which you need attacking fullbacks at all times).

Admitedly this perhaps isn't all too different from the behavior of an anchorman... I need to try to switch my HB/D to a A/D to see if I notice any difference.

 

edit... here's an image of how my HB looks like just ahead of the CBs.. this isn't Sassuolo, but might give out some ideas:

[Jambo98]

11 minutes ago, noikeee said:

Hey Jambo don't rule out the halfback completely. I've been using it ahead of a back 4 for quite a few seasons in my regular career. Sure it doesn't work like intended, by not splitting the CBs, which makes it less than ideal to build up patiently from the back, but it does still provide a 3rd man at the back to cover for attacking fullbacks. Most of the time the AI are terrible at exploiting the space we give out at the wings anyway. You might find that most time the 3 men at the back (2 DCs + halfback), despite not being in ideal positions, are still enough to cover counter-attacks. If needed extra cover, you can tell one of the other fullbacks to stay behind (although I can see why this would be annoying with a wingerless system in which you need attacking fullbacks at all times).

Admitedly this perhaps isn't all too different from the behavior of an anchorman... I need to try to switch my HB/D to a A/D to see if I notice any difference.

Cheers, yeah i noticed although the HB did nothing like it says on the tin, the system defensively did not suffer really. Was a small sample size but probably will stick with that. 

Thus far, defending is not the problem........The attacking game is not translating at all as i had hoped. Our striker is too far advanced, we have masses of possession but no penetration (that is somewhat a problem i expected, given my desire to play quick passes, there is always the issue of an end product) and, of course, we are addicted to long shots  

Some thought and analysis needed on the attacking side. Need to give more thought to how we break teams down, since our "pass and move" lots of bodies does not seem to work as i hoped thus far. 

[Jambo98]

Ok, so i mentioned the initial go around did not give me what i needed. To mention, for the purpose of just now i am just messing around again, using a random game in one of the "failed" attempts to try out concepts  (Europa League, away to Schalke......chose a tough one!) . I am also without Berardi and Evandro, which maybe isnt ideal but i wanted to look at some basic concepts. 

My first issue, was that we were not getting the inter play between the front 3 / 4 that i had hoped for. Below is the "with ball" position map based on the tactic i mentioned in post.....erm, we dont have post # any more, so the one above with the pictures......

Quite a disconnected between the ST and others i want him linking with is the obvious issue. For completeness, the "without the ball" map from the same game:

Aside from the obvious HB issue, again we do look a little disconnected here. 

The shot map from that game, showing just how long shot happy we were, and how lacking in chance creation we were

(In fairness, the 3 shots by number 32 were all DFK........but still not good). 

In addition, watching the match in comprehensive (2D) mode, we just were not getting what i wanted. Too much aimless possession, not enough interplay, and if anything we were even deeper than i expected. 

I made the following changes: 

1) Team Shape  - Structured to Flexible - I wanted to bring us closer together, more of a single unit. In line with the other changes, i hoped this would bring our front 3 / 4 close together to get our interplay going. I also felt it might "remove the shackles" a bit, even with "be more expressive" i felt we were a bit turgid at times

2) Striker Role - DLF(a) to DLF(s) - Not going to lie, i also played a few attempted games trying everything from Treq to DF in this role, nothing looked good. Refocussed, simplified. He was too far up with attack duty, lets just make him support duty. Combined with the team shape change expect quite an impact. I know from experience that DLF(s) can still be a scoring threat

3) Left Back Role - WB(a) to CWB(a) - Should be a fairly cosmetic change, but Peluso was just not quite as attacking as i hoped. These roles are very similar, but he now adds "get further forward and "roam from position" as hard coded PI, which might help a touch

4) TI Removed - Retain Possession and Drop Deeper - Retain possession seemed to really discourage the type of moves i wanted, so i took it off and replaced it (see below). It really seemed to give us almost too much possession. Drop Deeper was a gut thing, we just felt a tad too deep at times, although i am taking a slight risk in making that change at the same time as moving the team shape, as i suspect that the team shape alone might move me a touch higher (the fact that i am uncertain on that, underlines that it might be a risk / mistake)

5) TI Added - Shorter Passing - My replacement for retain possession is to add this alongside my higher tempo to try again to create the type of moves i am after. 

I am totally messing about rather than playing serious, and to really get a sense for my changes what i did was simply reload and replay the same fixture. I did make a couple of player changes, partly based on a lazy "assistant select", but they shouldn't make a big difference, same types just Politano in for Matri (actually just reviewing, that might be a bigger difference than i realised, given Matri's PPMS) and swapped my right backs. 

So, to illustrate the difference, here are the positional maps from this tactic: 

Now that is better - more connect between the front 4 (including the BBM) and the striker looks less isolated.  The shot map also tells a different story: 

Again, different. More threat inside the box.  I wasnt really interested in the results of these games, but for for comparison, in the first game we unsurprisingly lost 1 nil. Second time we lost 3 v 2, but both goals were inside the box and results of nice play. Ironically, after saying i was more comfy facing crosses, we conceded 2 goals from crosses, but both were just horrible defensive mistakes really so wont jump to conclusions. 

I feel like i am little nearer to getting what i wanted out there on the pitch, but based on one (replayed!) game only. Time to put it properly into action tomorrow at some point. 

[Jambo98]

Last post for tonight i promise......... Trying to show some of the type of moves i envisaged, now that a few are actually happening at least:

The second goal in the game above, scored by Politano who is my DLF(s) in this game

#27 is Ricci, my AP(s) who gets the assist after twice being involved further back in the move. #12 is Sensi, my HB who interestingly strides forward here and #6, involved 3 times is Pellegrini, my BBM. #16, Politano, scores after being involved 5 passes back. Really nice move, with just Luan (my SS) not involved. 

A chance for Luan which was saved, but came after some more nice interchanges

I like this a lot. Ricci (#27) starts off picking it up deep in our half from Pellegrini (#6). He dumps it off to Sensi and moves forward. 3 passes later he gets it back, again from Pellegrini, but 7 or 8 yards further forward. He moves it forward more quickly this time to Luan (#11) in the SS role. Luan finds my striker Politano (#16) dropping off, with nothing on forward, he slides it sideways to Ricci, picking the ball up for the 3rd time in this move. From here, back to Duncan, sideways to Sensi (again far forward!) and foward to Pellegrini, involved also for the 3rd time. He plays a nice through ball to Luan who had made a fun forward after his earlier involvement. Missed, but that is what i am talking about in terms of linking between the central players. 

This one is a bit more direct to start with. From the back, we get out to Peluso (#13) who finds Politano (#16) coming to offer from ST. On to Luan, then round a square of Pellegrini, back to Sensi, to Duncan (#32) and back to Luan who then has a through ball on to Pellegrini who is through on the keeper but its a great save. 

There we go, some more visualisation of how i want to see my team play. Whether or not we can keep it up beyond one game, will find out in due course!

 

[nogz]

14 minutes ago, Jambo98 said:

Last post for tonight i promise......... Trying to show some of the type of moves i envisaged, now that a few are actually happening at least:

The second goal in the game above, scored by Politano who is my DLF(s) in this game

#27 is Ricci, my AP(s) who gets the assist after twice being involved further back in the move. #12 is Sensi, my HB who interestingly strides forward here and #6, involved 3 times is Pellegrini, my BBM. #16, Politano, scores after being involved 5 passes back. Really nice move, with just Luan (my SS) not involved. 

 

That looks like a lovely worked goal, was it fast flowing as you wanted or slower?

[eriktous]

9 hours ago, Jambo98 said:

The idea was 2 transfers plus one loan for the entire season  

If you have ended up with 2 loans an done transfer (or 2 loans and no transfers its sounds like?) i cant imagine it makes any difference  

Thanks. It's looking like I will restart somewhere this week, if I can find the willpower. The test-save is going nowhere fast. I'm getting seriously disheartened about getting somewhere with this tactic. So is my goalkeeper, by the way. In my latest match he started to show signs of cracking. The video shows his first two actions of the match. Can't really blame him after conceding 8 goals in the previous match.

 

[causeforconcern]

Hah! I remember coming up with this thread about four years ago or so. Glad it's still going strong!

Also very impressed at all the detail everyone is going into

[Rashidi]

10 hours ago, itchycoo said:

4-2-2-2 DM Narrow

With the prefered line-up.

Transfers:

Memphis Depay (Man Utd) loan

Dennis Aogo (Shalke) 1.1M. Versitile player who will mainly be used as back up left back.

Jonas Olsson (WBA). In the first week both Cannavaro and Acerbi got themselves injured, so I wanted an extra centre back. In hinesight I should have waited and saved one transfer to January if I need some replacement then.

Results

A bit random. Some great results, as winning 3-1 away against Napoli - pretty good away side over all. Some stupid draws at home. Depay scoring two against United in the EL was quite pleasing (one labled as an own goal - it was a deflected free kick).

I really wanted to use this formation, tis a great system to play. I have the 4222DM system which is like a defensive 442

[Rashidi]

UPDATE - 4222DM

I am growing to like this system. The 4222DM reminds me of a defensive variant of the 442. With the 2 entrenched DMs controlling the Golden Zone or Grid 14 is very challenging. I did a video on this on my channel, so I knew that getting good performances would be a challenge at the start of the season. My single biggest worry was the whole area behind the two strikers. With the yawning chasm in midfield getting adequate support out to them and encouraging movement would be a serious challenge. If we could somehow manage to move the AI around we could be a serious contender for the title. The 4222DM is already pretty good at controlling space in its own half. It sits naturally deep which provides a lot of challenges with playing a game where you use the defensive line as a switch for applying pressure - probably my single biggest enjoyment in the game.

We had to settle for roles that do not get too far away from the DMs so we used the double WM combination. Basically I created two variants of last season's Riyahd Mahrez. This allows my two wing backs to bomb down the flanks. We can either score goals camped or we can use the two WMs to stretch play out, thus unlocking the golden zone. All we need is one killer pass through there and there is a strong possibility of scoring. Having Beradi and Defrel in the side is a nobrainer. The key positions however have to be the two WMs and I haven't settled on them yet, with Sensei and Politano the clear favorites at this point. In the middle of the park Duncan and Magnanelli get the call. At the back I can't look past Cannavaro for his experience, since a double DM combination is prone to some serious "pulled out of position scenarios".  So his experience at the back helps the backline to stay the course. His absence is telling when Ascerbi steps in.

I doubt this team will lift the title, I'd still like some depth in the squad especially for the two wide roles. This side has no proper winger in their ranks, but so far they have impressed. This goal in out Europa match showed the key pass combos and the way the team got the ball to the flanks and forced the opposition out of position, thus carving out a gilt edged chance. Our next match is against Torino :-(

 

 

[westy8chimp]

i love the 4222DM but i got 4411 2DM... and can see the benefit of the AMC role instead of 2 upfront. It allows me much more flexibility to play either short or direct... where im using the 4222dM with Bournemouth and very much favour direct style (attacking-structured, deep line, clear ball to flanks) with pacey attacking wingers and two strikers fast, big strong strikers ...Sassuolo don't really have that DNA.  

[Almighty Thermos]

In an effort to be more pro-active on the boards, I'd like to join in if I still can!

[Jambo98]

8 hours ago, nogz said:

That looks like a lovely worked goal, was it fast flowing as you wanted or slower?

It looked a nice pace of play on the 2D view I was watching (I generally much prefer watching 3D for general gameplay, but when trying to analyse / understand tactics I go back to 2D). I might try and upload a GIF of the 3D view later.

What I most liked is my ST being involved in the passing, then making the run in behind when the time was right, and giving the through ball option. Without that, we just have pointless possession  

[kingpa689]

i would like to take a try, please! Actually just signed up the account for this challenge. haha!! seems  interesting to explore some strange system

[apchivers]

So the 5-2-2-1-0 has me completely beaten. Still sat in 18th at the Christmas break was enough for the board to justifiably sack me. Good luck to everyone else doing this - some very interesting write ups so far.

[westy8chimp]

3 minutes ago, apchivers said:

So the 5-2-2-1-0 has me completely beaten. Still sat in 18th at the Christmas break was enough for the board to justifiably sack me. Good luck to everyone else doing this - some very interesting write ups so far.

difficult tactic for sure... you've probably just ensured kingpa689 a torrid FM session or two... haha

I still think, in line with this experiment, something can be done with that formation. Are you sure you don't want another go ... just at a glance there's two approaches I'd take

1) counter mentality... play deep, slow and low ... let the counter attack take over when possible (where it switches to overload and ignores your instructions) ... probably not a lg winning strategy but counter is very effective and at worst youd be really solid at the back with all those bodies.

2) play standard... lower tempo but pass into space and choose 3-4 attack duties with PIs get further forward... low tempo encourages good decisions... pass into space and forward runs may achieve that 5 2 2 1 0 into a 523/532 wb tactic

                                   GK

   WB a      cb c         cb s      cb c          wb a

                          reg s        dm s

                          bbm s       cm a

                                    am a

4 attack duties.. possibly all 7 non CB players set to get further forward...   

[apchivers]

Thanks for the advice @westy8chimp - I think something could probably be done with it and will probably have another go at some point. But for the time being I'm going to play my main career save.

[Sanno11]

5-2-3 Narrow

I started my previous post stating I need manage this formation's strengths and weaknesses, but I don't think I really understood them. I have therefore had a re-think about how I approach this system and will provide the details below and an example of how this should now work. Our results have been underwhelming and despite us advancing from our group in the Europa League we have reached the winter break in 11th position.

 

The new approach

  

The significant changes are that defensively we have brought our defensive line back to normal. Offensively we are now using IWB (more on this below and exploiting the middle. After watching more games I realised that my obsession with making us compact allowed teams to find all the space they wanted in behind us, and with only having two CM we were unable to apply enough pressure to prevent this. I believe that the strength we have in a back 5 is that we cover the width of the pitch, so making teams play through that, rather than over it should make us harder to break down.

The decision to swap to inverted wing backs is what prompted this post as I felt it worth sharing. Time and time again my standard wing backs ran into dead ends and often were crowded out. Not only this but they struggled to even recycle the ball to either midfielder and usually we lost possession. We sometimes found success but, again I don't think the strength in this formation is the wing backs.

So with the IWBs added and the TI applied to exploit the middle, I hoped to create an attacking approach that encouraged variety and a different dimension to how we intended to break teams down.

Us with the ball (attacking left to right). Now we have a compact 3-4-3 in attack, with the IWBs offering a lot more support the CMs who I want to be able to dictate the play. The IWBs are wider than I had hoped but in a 5-2-3 I expect that is unavoidable. I'm not entirely happy with distance to the three forwards but it is a work in progress.

Defensively, we are always going to look something like this. I continue to monitor our back line and whether I need to drop it further. Again the forwards are a little isolated, I haven't tried using defensive forwards for one or both of the wider forwards but it is on my to do list.

 

Just an example of goal we scored using this new approach. With our lower tempo we build slowly from the back, but as soon as the space opens up we play 5 very direct passes to create the chance. The pleasing thing is number 2's position, this is my right sided IWB and by pulling in narrower he is able to easily find the next forward pass rather than attempting to dribble, or play backwards.

[Rashidi]

2 hours ago, apchivers said:

So the 5-2-2-1-0 has me completely beaten. Still sat in 18th at the Christmas break was enough for the board to justifiably sack me. Good luck to everyone else doing this - some very interesting write ups so far.

Can you stick in a screenshot of your tactic please? very curious

[jstu9]

@Jambo98 I think i want to give this a try too. Been thinking about this for a couple of days. I'm hoping for a very oddball formation that I would never use in a million years.

[Jambo98]

Sorry been a bit slow in replying / allocating today. 

@Almighty Thermos - 4411 2 DM 

 

@kingpa689 - 4321 Narrow

 

@jstu9 - 451 

[apchivers]

14 hours ago, Rashidi said:

Can you stick in a screenshot of your tactic please? very curious

Hi @Rashidi - below is the tactic I finished on. Wingbacks have PIs to stay wider and run wide with ball, wide midfielders are instructed to cut inside and sit narrower and finally both defensive midfielders are told to get further forward.

 

[ThePinnacle]

Hi guys, I like the look of this thread, it's an interesting read of different opinions.

I do quite a bit of tactic testing on FM as I like to find out what does and doesn't work.

Would it be okay if I joined?

[Almighty Thermos]

4411 2DM? I've got off quite lightly with this one! I'll get cracking after work this evening and report accordingly!

[nugatti]

Can I also join please?

Up for a fresh challenge. 

Who picks the team?

[Almighty Thermos]

9 minutes ago, nugatti said:

Can I also join please?

Up for a fresh challenge. 

Who picks the team?

It's on the first page mate. We're all using Sassuolo in Italy.

[nugatti]

3 minutes ago, Almighty Thermos said:

It's on the first page mate. We're all using Sassuolo in Italy.

Sorry, only read the initial rules before posting. 

That's how it is when sneaking onto the forum when @ the office!

[Almighty Thermos]

2 minutes ago, nugatti said:

Sorry, only read the initial rules before posting. 

That's how it is when sneaking onto the forum when @ the office!

Haha, same here bud. Although I'm the only one in the office today so I needn't be so sneaky!

[Jambo98]

@ThePinnacle -  5221 DM 

 

@nugatti 424 DM Wide 

 

[souptical]

Yea I just haven't done well, didn't think it through and dont have time because of my job, sorry I'll be out of this