FM17 - Rediscovering Tactics & Tweaking the Leicester Style

Jambo98 · October 22, 2016

So, its been a while. But there is a a new Football Manager, and i thought i would give posting in here a new go.

Last year i had a couple of attempts at creating something tactically, posting in here and doing some detailed analysis / tactic building (Both in Italy, with varied success.......none at Lazio, a fair bit at Parma) but to be honest, i was jaded with FM16. In the end, for the last 6 months i created a basic tactic, stealing best bits of others off here, and exploiting the heck out of fullbacks / crossing / corners and just plugged it into every save, playing exclusively online and winning everything (Champions League, Euro Super Cup and World Club cup with Hearts inside 6 seasons, and 23 trophies in a 10 year online save across Italy, Spain & England). It was fun, but not quite the same level of interest.

So with the new version out for a few days, i figured i will at least try something tactical before i become jaded again :D. I will be playing online again in a few weeks, and by a random draw, i get to manage Leicester. An interesting one for me, as they go against the grain in many ways of what i traditionally like in my teams. I love silky flair players, which generally is my downfall. I think at one point last year i played 4231 where the "2" were Ante Coric and Unai Lopez.......go figure . Leicester, by contrast, are all about the opposite. Speed, work rate, strength. We all know by now what they did and how they did it last year.

Managing Leicester is an interesting challenge. League champions, but only tipped to finish 7th. When was the last time that happened (never, i am guessing). Few would argue with that prediction either. They have a well settled squad, who have lost a massive part of their success which might, or might not (IRL) mean a change in style.

Rather than try to recreate Ranieri's style, which has been done to death to be fair, i decided i want to create something of my own. However, it would be foolish to take a squad which won the league, and try to totally transform it. I cannot realistically expect to make Leicester a gegenpressing / Tiki Taki side right out of the gate, so why would i try. To quote someone (many people really), i want to go for "evolution, not revolution".

I will try and detail here the approach i take and the way i develop a tactic. It will almost certainly contain wrong decisions, mistakes and frustration (i freely admit, that since FM15, i have completely lost grip of some aspects of the TC). Infact as i type up this intro, the first huge, hilarious blip has occurred, but more of that later. I am hoping to generate discussions, take suggestions and, of course, learn a bit from how others read things.

Step 1 - The starting point - having an idea / vision

I am, almost certainly, repeating something i have said in every thread i have created in here, but none the less.........you have to start with an idea of how you want the game of football to be played by your team. It can be as basic as "i want to be counter attacking" or "i want to gegenpress", just as long as you understand how to take that starting point idea, and develop the component parts required to create the final solution. i will pause here to say that i think Formations are a bit of an abstract concept when it comes to this. I dont think you should ever start with "i want to play 442" or "i want to play with 2 DMs" - Those are not really visions, those are parts of the solution. Put the horse before the cart. How do you want to play? Then figure out what formation, roles, and duties will add up to that. Formation, is, in essence, your defence shape. Thats one part of how you play, but why would you start with an idea for one part of the game?

So, my idea / vision for how i want to play the game (in this save - i am whimsical, i might be totally different in the next save!)

- I want to have a style of play which creates, and ruthlessly makes use of, space in the final 3rd. Our 2 best players are Vardy and Mahrez, and both are blessed with pace and running ability. I want a style which heavily involves those things

- I want to augument the space creation, with a player who can unlock that space. We will not be all about true counter in the way that Leicester were last year. We will embrace the idea of the pace and space creation, but we will add creativity

- I want width, but varied width. I do not want to be predictable when it comes to my use of the wide areas

- I want to defend with 4 players at all times. That is not to say that none of the 4 will ever be in the attack phase, but i want 4 players who are dedicated primarily to the defensive side of the game. In FM terms, that likely means 4 defend duties, but at this stage the principle is a solid defence made up of 4 players.

- Our defensive approach will not be pressing based. We will keep our shape and force opponents to play through us if they want to score.

- I want to transition using primarily 2 avenues - Wide play and a single creative central player

- I want to vary my attack, but focus mainly on use of space behind the opposition

Thats a bit of a random assortment of principles, but i am just writing as i go. I think that covers the basics of how my team will play. Note that there is no mention of the words "tempo", "dline", "crossing", "width" (ok there are many mentions of that, just not in terms of how wide or narrow the team will be), creative freedom or pressing. Indeed very few of the terms i will find in the TC are mentioned when i come up with my desired style. That is because those things make up the ingredients. I want to describe my vision of the final dish first, then ask the Chef (who is also me......this metaphor has really gone wrong.....) to pick the correct ingredients and recipe to reach this goal.

Step 2 - Implementing the Idea

Ok so now the hard bit. How does all that waffle become something within football manager 2017 (beta)? Well, in all honesty, there are many posters on this forum who could just take it, create a tactic and boom, off they go showing how it works. At this point, i am not one of those people. It will be a long and probably frustrating process, which will require some trial and error on my part.

However, i have an idea of how i might start.

First things first, i suppose. The formation, roles and duties form the backbone of any system, so here they are.

and the explanations:

GK - G(d) - Basic keeper. We will not be a high line team (more on that later) so need for an SK. We just want him to get it out to our fullbacks and start the game rolling again - PI - Pass it shorter, distribute quickly, distribute to fullbacks, roll it out

DC - CD(d) x 2 - Again, nothing fancy here. No ball players in this team. Might add PI later, but for now, just do what DC's do - PI -None

RB -FB(d) - On this side, i want to stay very solid. Simpson has the PPM "stays back at all times" so knits nicely into this. He is our 3rd defensive player. He will just give the ball to those in front, and keep us solid. PI - Cross aim far post (related to Mahrez)

LB - WB(a) - So the variation starts. This is Fuchs, who bombs on all day. The way we are set up in front of him encourages this and he provides the attacking wide on the left side - PI - None

MCL - CM(d) - The 4th defensive player in the side. Want him staying back and giving us a strong backbone. Mendy has "plays short simple passes" PPM which is perfect. Win the ball, give it to the attacking unit and stay where you are PI - None

MCR - BBM(s) - The first of 3 "transition" players, and also part of the attacking unit. Drinkwater is perfect for this, can get around all day, support the striker but also help out Mendy. PI - Shoot less often

MR - W(s) - Another of the transition players, and the provider of width on the right, to give space for the AMC to operate. Albrighton shifts over and has all the attributes to be a winger (as does Gray). PI - None (partly due to Albrightons PPMs)

AMC - AP(a) - The creative force who gets the ball into the spaces. The "new" aspect to Leicester. An absolute key for us. The attack duty was not my first choice, but with support he drops way to deep. PI - None

AML - RDM(a) - The one role i am least certain on, but it is the first of the 2 main scoring roles. I toyed between IF(a) and this, but i really like the idea of Mahrez as Muller type. Ideally, a right footer would fit here, or Mahrez in the same role in the AMR slot, but i need to balance this. Albrighton and Gray are my wingers, and both are right footed. My fullbacks heavily trend towards being more attacking on the left than right. So Mahrez will come off this side. PI - None

ST - AF(a) - A lot of people would recomend a support duty alongside an RDM, but i am going for another approach. Vardy is just made to play on the shoulder, take through balls form a creator, and in doing so create space where Mahrez can cut into. PI- None

of course, formations, roles and duties only exist within the confines of a team shape and mentality, and governed by over-arching TI. So......

This is basic -

The mentaility i am sticking to "standard" to start. There is certainly an argument for "counter", but i think i can create what i need by means other than adjusting the overall team mentality, which impacts so many things. Also, starting on "standard" allows me scope to go up or down during the game.

The team shape, i struggle with a lot the last year or so. I love very fluid, buts its not appropriate here. The more structured we are, in theory, the more vertical distance we create between the lines. I want some space between the lines, since we are about space creation. I also do want a sense of discipline about our side. We want to defend strongly, and the way i have set my team out above, in terms of those who are involved in each phase of play, broadly fits into the "structured" description.

Team instructions will start minimal, and almost certainly be added as we go. For now, there are 2 distinct characteristics of my style which i believe need a TI right away to create. "drop deeper" helps both with my defensive vision, but most importantly with my attempts to create space in behind for us to exploit. "pass into space" is a key element of how we take advantage of that space. Clearly one of our immediate issues might be that we are a top 7 side - some teams will simply not give us space, but lets cross that bridge when we come to it

Step 3- Having the players to pull it off

There is, of course, very little point in a good idea, and even a good implementation of it tactically, if you do not have the players at your disposal to make it happen on the pitch. Of course, in this case, as with any manager, i took account of the players at my disposal when i came up with my approach. This was not a long term thing where i aim to transform a club over 2 / 3 years - I want immediate success (yet to define what that means....).

However, the squad was not perfect for my vision. I immediately identified 1 major need in order for the team to be able to play this way, and 2 other areas where the squad needed tweaking to meet my needs

Need 1 - A creator

This was the most glaring issue. Leicester are not build around any type of playmaker / creator at all. My vision relied on a "number 10" type who can pull the strings and find those pockets of space where Mahrez and Vardy should be.

Knowing the type i needed, i looked for a number of criteria in a signing. We had some money to play with, but not mega bucks. I am not getting James or Pjanic here, lets be honest.

I wanted someone with passing ability, vision, technique, first touch and decision making. For me, those are the most crucial aspects for the role i have in mind. PPMs are also important. My search actually initially lead me to Dani Parejo, who is far more of a DLP and has some PPMs which i am not wild about (NB - full disclosure, my first attempt at a save with this concept went awry for a couple of reasons, and i did actually sign Parejo in that and he didnt look great). Second on the list though, was Riccardo Saponara. A player i was always a fan of in Serie A, and who seems to tick all the boxes, including a key PPM - "Tries killer balls often"

Needs 2 / 3 - Depth and quality at the back

These relate less to the tactic, but more to the strength of the side. I really feel that Huth and Morgan, whilst brilliant last year, are not top class overall. I went out and bought another experienced guy, but one i percieve as an upgrade, and certainly a big upgrade over our 3rd choice (being in the CL, i want 3 quality DC). Gonzalo Rodriquez is a wily old campaigner. He might not be the quickest, but given our playing style i am not worried by that.

We also need a backup LB for Fuchs, and Tyrone Mings was cheap, English and has a nice attacking PPM as well as good attributes going forward.

We then need a backup for Saponara, given we have no creators in the squad. Evandro is a low cost, somewhat similar player, albeit with less quality.

Gaztanaga was brought in purely for depth given the amount of games we have. He can play DC or MC if needed.

On the outward side, Ulloa is surplus as we only need 1 striker, Matty James was already transfer listed and did not really have a place in the side, and Musa and Benalouane were both high earners who really, in my view, are not cut out for this system. There is an argument that Musa with his pace would fit, but his technicals are so dire i just wanted rid of his wages. Chilwell is a year away from being ready, in my view.

So thats it for the first part. Next i have to actually try this out, and see how badly the theory works out in practice! Since its 4am now, i might leave that until after some sleep

Jambo98 · October 22, 2016

Step 4 - Testing it in a game situation - Pre-season and Charity Shield (Yes, i still call it that)

Ok so time to get serious. Can this actually work, or was it all just abstract ideas and nice pictures (ok, there were not many nice pictures in the OP, but in my head there were!) . The players are signed, the tactic is setup, time to go.

We start, of course, with pre-season. When creating a new tactic, pre-season can play a vital part. It is the chance to iron out kinks, spot flaws in your thinking and try a few experiments without real consequence. However, i chose to forego that and just let the Ass Man take charge of the lot........why, i hear you scream? 2 reasons:

1) I have always found that pre-season in FM bares no relations to actual competitive matches. I am sure this is less try in FM17, and probably was not as true in FM16, but i am burnt by years of creating something which played like Brazil in pre-season, only to look like Norwich when the real stuff starts

2) Probably more relevant, but when i play online i dont get to manage friendlies. So its a bit of a "prep" for that.

Turns out the Ass Man aint bad. I didnt view any of the matches, other than checking after the first 2 that he plays my tactics, including roles and duties (which he did - i think that is an improvements / fix from FM16 - good work SI).

Not exactly the toughest set of fixtures ever, but nice wins against Monaco, Olympiakos and some Turkish mob i cant pronounce give me some confidence that the system will not be a total shambles. A nice enough spread of goals as well.

However, now competitive game time (sort of...). By virtue of being Champions, we get to play the Charity Shield at Wembley against Man U. Quite a way to start. I actually think playing bigger teams might suit us, since we should have less issues getting space, but lets see....

Game 1- Leicester v Man Utd

They line up 4411 which i think will be fairly common against us. Rooney as the deepest CM, a less than scary DC line of Jones and Fosu-Mensah and interestingly far more attacking RB, which will play against my attacking left side.

Thinks start of even enough, a bit of jousting in the opening minutes. Mendy appears to be snapping at heels, and perhaps closing down a bit much, as he is almost on top of Drinkwater at one point, but they seem to combine well so i am leaving it.

5mins in, we get our first chance to use some space. Saponara picks the ball up in a good area, and lets stop and look at what is around him:

Look at the space Mahrez as moved into, and look at the space ahead of Vardy (he is deeper than usual, as he actually started the move and has just given the ball to Saponara. Also not Fuchs already bombing into the space Mahrez is vacating, although Lingard is tracking the run well.

From here, actually Sap doesnt play it into space as such, he finds Mahrez with a ball directly into him, Mahrez finds Fuchs outside, who finds Vardy in the area. After that, well, the gif tells the story

A pleasing start and a nice move.

I watched the rest of the first half on "comprehensive" and really like what i see. We are on top. Utd create one good chance from a cross which Mata of all people heads but right at Kasper. At the other end, its turning into Vardy v De Gea..... This graphic shows Vardy's shots just in the first half:

Here is the build up to one of the saved shots. Sap again is the ma picking the ball up, and note the space Mahrez has and Vardy is one v one against Phil Jones (i will take that match up any day

The outcome is not quite another goal, but a good chance - For me, this is Vardy playing exactly as an AF(a) should:

So half time, no need for change. We are well in control against a very good Utd side. Most of the tactical concepts are working ok so far, Utd have had some chances, but other than the Mata header, nearly all from distance. They have more possession but im not interested in that in the slightest.

Early in the second half, Utd get level after a lovely move between Pogba / Depay / Ibra which ends with a tap in for Mata. Our DC's are caught ball watching a bit, but its a nice move involving some world class players. Tip the cap and move on. Within 60 secs, we do exactly that as Fuchs smashes in a direct free kick.

We are still creating chances, far more than Utd, and our second half shots analysis shows they involve a variety of players:

And if we look at the build up play (how cool is this little feature on the stats tab btw? Did this always exist and i didnt notice it?)

No Tiki Taka here. Huth at the back into Evandro (on for Sap). Into space out wide for Mahrez, cross for Vardy and header just wide. Lovely.

As the game goes on, Utd go more attacking, bring on Rashford and go 4231. Rash gives us some problems and they create more chances. We go "contain" and "time waste" for the last 10mins and hold out, but the pressure they give us when they go all out attack has me making a note that i need to consider what tweaks i might make against that type of situation. In theory, it just opens up more space which is great. But in practice, when a top class team want to throw everything at you, you might need a plan to adapt. One for later.

We hold on and pick up the pot. Nice start

Jambo98 · October 22, 2016

Game 2 - One of those days- West Ham v Leicester

So, after the high of the Utd game, we open the league campaign away to West Ham. An interesting game. I figure they will have expectations around our levels, so probably wont sit back, and they are at home.

If i just leave this one headline here, you can get the idea of how it went.......

For me, this was a stark reminder of something. Sometimes, no matter how good you think you are, how much thought you put in, in football, you will just have one of those days where it all goes wrong. The big test on these days, is how do you react? Can you accept that sometimes, it just is not your day and the world is against you, or do you feel the need to tear things down, disect your tactic based on one game?

Firstly, lets set out just how his game went.

10mins - Nothing much happened so far, but West Ham get a free kick wide. Payet floats it in, and Zaza is totally unmarked. Heads it past Kasper, who doesnt move. Ok, 1 nil down. Not great.

12mins - A perfect execution of our plan. Mendy has the ball deep, pings it to Mahrez who has found space in that inside life channel, gets all the way to the byline, cuts it back and Vardy

13mins - West Ham direct free kick 19 yards out. Payet. Top Corner. Behind again before we can blink

17mins - West Ham direct free kick 30 yards out. Payet. Top Corner. Oh come on.........

29mins - We have struggled but are puting something together when we lose the ball. Feghouli gets the jump on Fuchs down our left and gets to the byline, cuts back and Zaza has a tap in. That was preventable if i am honest, and its basically game over now.

32mins - Nothing else happened, Obiang gets the ball fully 40 yards out. Ping. Top corner. What the hell.........give me a damn refund on this game right now!

44mins - West Ham direct free kick. 20 yards out. Payet.........yeah i dont even have to finish that do i. 6 v 1 down at half time. Thats it. I am re-installing CM99/00........

What can you do at HT? The heads are gone for us, morale shot. We have been out played, but hardly by 6 goals to 1. Payet, by the way, had 5 DFK within 35 yards in that half. We have no one set to tackle hard. Go figure

47mins - West ham throw in. Goes to Noble inside the box. Smash. Bottom corner. That was preventable. Our team just look shot though. 7 v 1. Thats it, someone send me a link to eastside hockey manager.

59mins - Hey, we can still play this game. Mahrez, to Vardy, to top Corner.

At this point i sub off 3 players. Game is gone. We are totally shot morale wise and no point doing anything. Payet, by the way, has 3 more DFK within 30 years. i have no explanations.

The game end, and here is the final line. A complete catastrophe.

So then. Post mortem - What do we do? is our system just a wreck? What on earth.....

You know what. Move on. Ignore it. 3 direct free kick goals. Really? Another from a set piece. Another from 40 yards. Nothing you can do about that. Blips happen. I cant really analyse the tactic at all based on this. It was a complete anomoly and i will treat it as such. I will ignore this game entirely, and look at how we perform next week.

Good laugh though.....

Jambo98 · October 22, 2016

Game 3 - Finding ways to win

So mentioned in the OP that i expected to hit some challenges against lower sides, who sit in against us on account of us being champions and having top 7 expectations. Next up after the West Ham shambles is a game at home to Bournemouth. This is exactly the type of game i expect to make it difficult for us to execute our main plan. I dont expect Bournemouth, being away, to come out and leave us space, even with our "drop deeper" approach.

That said, i need to find out just how our system works in these games before i think about starting with a "plan B" approach. So we start with the same lineup and tactic as before. Albrighton is still out so Gray has been our RM for the first 3 games.

First up, my fears are confirmed about how deep Bournemouth are:

You can see as we build up, the lack of space in behind meaning Mahrez and Vardy are well marked with no where to run into.

Another view, this time we are even deeper in the buildup phase and again you can see - no space.

Ok, so we sort of expected that pre-game. The question is, what do we do? This is not going to be a one off. My system will not be much use if it only works against bigger teams.

Probably worth expanding on my thoughts in the OP, when i thought about how i felt we might "get around this". For anytime, it important to have more than one idea of how you will attack. So i talked a fair bit about my primary approach being the pace of Vardy and Mahrez, fed by the creativity of Saponara, however i do have some views on how we score goals when those 2 are nullified. These are:

1) Crossing - I have a winger on the right who should stretch the opposition and provide crosses. Albrighton and Gray both have the potential to be great "proper wide men" (although Gray is a bit green, needs development). Vardy is not at all shabby in the air, and the RDM can be a big danger at the back stick from crosses. Exhibit A below: (hits the post sadly, but nice idea)

2) The BBM - This guy can be key for me in tight matches. Vardy and Mahrez will push teams back, even when they dont have space to get into, they still pose a threat which should create room. Saponara is my playmaker in that space, but against teams with a DM, he is going to be marked. This is where Drinkwater comes in. He can get in and around the edge of the box, with room to get off a shot. Exhibit B below: (Drinks with plenty space to get off a shot from a nice distance. Hit it right at the keeper on this occasion, but i like the movement.

3) Finding ways - This is a bit of an arbitrary one, but good teams just find ways to score. It might be a direct free kick (Fuchs has 2 now this season), or corners, or a counter attack from a defensive corner. A lot of this is down to players, attributes and even personality types.

Onto this game. As the screenshots above show, we struggled for space early. Our shot map from the first half also reflect this.

However, we did number 3) above - we found a way. Just before HT, a corner from the right and big Gonzalo Rodriguez rises high at the near post to head home. Gets us in front, and more importantly, means that Bournemouth are now more likely to need to come out. There are few better ways to help create space against a "parked bus" than to simply score against it once

Comparing our second half shot map reveals that there was marginally more space (i subbed Vardy after 55mins, simply to save him for other games. He was not going to get in behind much, and i felt we could win with Slimani).

We also got our second goal in the end. and it was somewhat related to point 2) above. Clip below - Slimani as the AF pushes the defence back, there is room for Drinks to get forward to a point where he could easily get a shot off from 18yards, but instead he cleverly slips in Slimani, who smashes home.

Much to my annoyance, we conceded a set piece goal with 2mins to go (wide free kick swung in and Grabban header - very similar to first Zaza goal against West Ham), but none the less, a comfortable win against a defensive team. It bodes well, but i do expect these games to continue to be a challenge and to provide food for thought.

Next up is Sunderland away. Could be interesting to see how that plays out. They are again a side with much lower expectations but they are at home, interested to see how that plays out

yipster1986 · October 22, 2016

Looking forward to this Jambo. I was a major fan of your 451 concept back in FM15 with Hearts and Liverpool.

cregan · October 22, 2016

Interesting. It's similar to something I've been trying - and failing - to implement with Sunderland (they have a similar mix, albeit of much more suspect quality: Defoe for Vardy, Borini as a wide attacker cutting in, Januzaj winger, a much more attacking DL in Van Aanholt than on the right, a couple of sluggers in MC in Cattermole (whose passing range seems surprisingly decent, roughly in the Drinkwater role) and Ndong, and some highly suspect central defenders). I'm interested to see how this plays out because, with a slightly different formation and Flexible rather than Structured, we've been very, very porous.

herne79 · October 22, 2016

Welcome back .

Will be following as usual. +1 for Saponara instead of Parejo there.

ianscousemac · October 22, 2016

Really enjoyed reading so far, looking forward to following this.

jukilo · October 22, 2016

Your threads always, always get my interest. Even more one with this kind of style.

So +1 following this. Keep it up!!

TheJanitor · October 22, 2016

Great start for the thread! The Mahrez comparison to Muller is kind of odd, probably the most intriguing aspect of your tactics to me. Will follow!

Jambo98 · October 22, 2016

Updated Post 2 with a first game analysis, screenshots and clips to try and give some idea of where it is going.

Yeah.....Mahrez and Muller is probably not a great comparison is it! However, if you look a bit closer. Mahrez is very quick, has movement and vision and can score goals. They are a total mismatch Technically and Mentally though. Mahrez miles better technically, Muller miles better mentally.

I suppose what i see for Mahrez is that ability to float from wide, find pockets and use them in the way that Muller can do (although i am less sure Muller plays that way now IRL). Mahrez can also do the things a traditional winger can do, which helps. One of the bits of analysis in post 2 sort of shows that, him supplying a cross for Vardy

ianscousemac · October 22, 2016

Be interested to know what you intend to do with Slimani He's a hell of a target man and has excellent finishing.

Jambo98 · October 22, 2016

24 minutes ago, ianscousemac said:

Be interested to know what you intend to do with Slimani He's a hell of a target man and has excellent finishing.

That is a great point, worthy of some discussion. The £30m man....... He has qualities for sure.

First things first, I dont think there is anyway i can start Vardy, Slimani and Mahrez if i also intend to use a "creator" type in the mould of Saponara. That would be 4 very attacking players, 2 of whom are strikers. I would need to, probably, risk 442 with Sap and one other CM, which would leave us light. I think i need to acknowledge that, to keep balance. One of those is going to have to sit it out at times.

This is a dilemma i often have when squad building. I have a specific way of playing (Plan A at least) which relies on a specific player type. So what do you do when that player is injured / unavailable / needs a rest? Most times, what i do is have a backup striker of the same "type". So i would have another speedy AF type on the bench to cover Vardy, with the only noticeable impact on the team likely being a slightly drop in quality (I clearly cant afford a £30m backup). The challenge with that, is what happens if you feel you need to alter your style? You have only fast quick strikers, so how do you change it up?

The other option, my current situation, is that i have a great "plan B" type in Slimani. The opposite in someways to Vardy. He is big, strong, and plays with his back to goal via player trait (The polar opposite of Vard's "likes to beat offside trap"). I look at this and think he seems idea in games where i am up against a parked bus. He could play the ST role, but in a very different way. He can hold the ball up and the RDM then becomes all the more important. I could either move Vardy out there, and move Mahrez out to the wing (only likely to use that for parts of games) or use those opportunities to give Vardy a rest.

However, then back to the conundrum - What about when i am facing a team who will attack me, ripe for my Vardy / Mahrez combo of pace and running in behind, but one of those two is not available (given the CL schedule, it is gonna happen). Ideally, the solution would be have a 3rd striker who is "Vardy-lite", but my budget is not likely to allow that without a fair bit of manouvering. Probably my answer to this is that on those occasions, I will use a combo of Mahrez and Schlupp in the 2 most attacking roles. My other option is Okazaki but he is not quite the pace in behind type. I am only really keeping Oka around for his versatility and the need for that in a CL campaign. Slimani in those games is likely to be a great option if we have a lead. Come on and hold it up.

Is it the best way to use a £30m man at a club like Leicester? Probably not. But i could not come up with a vision to fit them all in unfortunately..........

TheJanitor · October 22, 2016

I kinda like Mahrez as RMD. With a natural goalscorer like Vardy, he doesn't have to be as much of a lethal goal machine as Muller. I think he will often be the one who often will provides the assist. Proper example pf how different players play the same role differently.

As for Slimani, I'd probably play him as a plan B to Saponara.

Fosse · October 22, 2016

5 hours ago, TheJanitor said:

I kinda like Mahrez as RMD. With a natural goalscorer like Vardy, he doesn't have to be as much of a lethal goal machine as Muller. I think he will often be the one who often will provides the assist. Proper example pf how different players play the same role differently.

As for Slimani, I'd probably play him as a plan B to Saponara.

Slimani's technicals aren't good enough to be a creator unfortunately, he's got good finishing, heading, workrate and a nice combo of jumping reach/strength but not a lot else.

callamity · October 22, 2016

Will follow this. Always do enjoy your stuff jambo

TheJanitor · October 22, 2016

56 minutes ago, Fosse said:

Slimani's technicals aren't good enough to be a creator unfortunately, he's got good finishing, heading, workrate and a nice combo of jumping reach/strength but not a lot else.

He can create chances, just not in the same manner as Saponara. I would play him as DLF, right between Mahrez and Vardy. He is not the most creative or slik, but he can use his aerial ability to flick long balls and hold up play for these two. A creator of a different kind.

Fosse · October 22, 2016

1 minute ago, TheJanitor said:

He can create chances, just not in the same manner as Saponara. I would play him as DLF, right between Mahrez and Vardy. He is not the most creative or slik, but he can use his aerial ability to flick long balls and hold up play for these two. A creator of a different kind.

I see what you mean, ironically he's not very good at that in real life. He's a fantastic header of the ball in the box to finish chances but he's not the best at winning aerial battles elsewhere on the pitch

TheJanitor · October 22, 2016

11 minutes ago, Fosse said:

I see what you mean, ironically he's not very good at that in real life. He's a fantastic header of the ball in the box to finish chances but he's not the best at winning aerial battles elsewhere on the pitch

Probably have to do with Balance and Aggression. I admit I haven't seen his stats, but low ratings at this can have this effect. I'd still be tempted to give him a shot.

tyler16 · October 22, 2016

Great start. Well written. :thup:

Jambo98 · October 22, 2016

With due respect, @TheJanitor, it feels to me like you are thinking of one player rather than "a system" - How is a DLF who flicks things on going to help me with the goals i set out in the OP? Also, bit surprising that you are suggesting stuff having not seen his attributes, so presumably not having managed him.....

Right, about to right up post 3 now

Jambo98 · October 23, 2016

post 3 updated with another bit of analysis. Less detailed, but more amusing this time.......

Svenc · October 23, 2016

I tried to do something approaching it on FM 2016 back then. This was really a quick test save, but i personally went with an attacking mentality as it is the attacking mentalities that will make players more prone to look to move it forward. Coupled with an encouragement to drop deeper than the standard allows. For the heck of it, I even added go more direct and pass into space / more risky balls into the mix. This was on FMT and I never micromanaged during the matches, nor watching, having it all on text commentary and max speed, except for subbing players. As such it likely was no coincidence that the actually point drops came against smaller sides who play more defensively, the big dogs in particular when conceding are playing off obscenely high lines as of FM 2016. Which impacts both the space available immediately when you win the ball back as they totally stand their ground at the half way line until the ball carrier comes knocking on the same, as well as the positioning when they retreat, so that even deep into enemy territory there is space that Vardy can cut inside into, or somebody play a through ball in behind (line settings were tweaked that way to be lots more aggressive). Top of the league by the end of December with an average pass completion of below 65%, but an overall total shot conversion of 17% (pretty much every 6th shot attempt a goal, thus, whilst the game average hovers around every 10th), seemed legit.

Not sure what things look like exactly on FM 2017, but naturally, that is space "gifted" that eventually may not be available anymore as opponents may approach matches more cautiously and cautiously if success continues.

phnompenhandy · October 23, 2016

Terrific thread Jambo. When you're a few weeks in maybe you can offer a reflection on how your Leicester this season is comparing with Ranieri's Leicester. Can you offer him any tactical suggestions to improve his Premier League record (including re. rotation, where you share the same dilemmas)?!

TheJanitor · October 23, 2016

5 hours ago, Jambo98 said:

With due respect, @TheJanitor, it feels to me like you are thinking of one player rather than "a system" - How is a DLF who flicks things on going to help me with the goals i set out in the OP? Also, bit surprising that you are suggesting stuff having not seen his attributes, so presumably not having managed him.....

Right, about to right up post 3 now

It's ok. It was arrogant of me to just say how he would fit without even looking at him, I just based it of the few real life game I saw from him and how I recalled him from previous games.

Also, what I suggested was merely how I'd use him as plan B. It will change aspects of how you play, but that still be how I would try to fit him in.

herne79 · October 23, 2016

On 10/22/2016 at 04:25, Jambo98 said:

For me, this was a stark reminder of something. Sometimes, no matter how good you think you are, how much thought you put in, in football, you will just have one of those days where it all goes wrong. The big test on these days, is how do you react? Can you accept that sometimes, it just is not your day and the world is against you, or do you feel the need to tear things down, disect your tactic based on one game?

Best quote I've seen for a long time.

In all honesty though as we're still in Beta I'd upload that pkm to the bugs forum to take a look at those direct free kicks. Pretty sure that's something SI were looking to balance.

If only that scoreline reflected real life...COYI .

callamity · October 23, 2016

1 hour ago, herne79 said:

Best quote I've seen for a long time.

In all honesty though as we're still in Beta I'd upload that pkm to the bugs forum to take a look at those direct free kicks. Pretty sure that's something SI were looking to balance.

If only that scoreline reflected real life...COYI .

I didn't know this was an issue. I conceded 2 in quick succession against spurs. Erik son scored them both from direct free kicks.

This lead to a 4-3 defeat which knocked me off my perch and started a poor run of form to end in 3rd in the league from 5 points clear with 5 games to go. My newcastle team were distraught going for the 5000-1 win the prem first season in it.

When I get home from the kids football today I will add my pkm to where it's supposed to go for that match and any other I remember with direct free kick goals that were a bit much

herne79 · October 23, 2016

@callamity Just to expand a little, SI had previously looked at goals from free kicks to make sure the overall numbers of goals scored were roughly in line with real life, and rebalanced if needed. It's still perfectly reasonable to have 2 goals scored in this way during a match so long as overall numbers are realistic and it's not a regular occurrence. 2 in a match should be unusual, 3 (as in Jambo's case) should be rarer than hen's teeth. If you feel overall numbers are high, and/or seeing 2 (or more) goals from direct free kicks being scored regularly, then by all means add to the bugs forum. :thup:

callamity · October 23, 2016

1 hour ago, herne79 said:

@callamity Just to expand a little, SI had previously looked at goals from free kicks to make sure the overall numbers of goals scored were roughly in line with real life, and rebalanced if needed. It's still perfectly reasonable to have 2 goals scored in this way during a match so long as overall numbers are realistic and it's not a regular occurrence. 2 in a match should be unusual, 3 (as in Jambo's case) should be rarer than hen's teeth. If you feel overall numbers are high, and/or seeing 2 (or more) goals from direct free kicks being scored regularly, then by all means add to the bugs forum.

I will investigate further mate. I didn't think anything of it at the time I have 2 and a bit seasons of games to look through and will compare numbers.

Jambo98 · October 23, 2016

Post 3 now updated with another game analysis, and some more detail around my approach and how i see us creating chances (above and beyond the bits i have already talked about)

Jambo98 · October 23, 2016

On 10/22/2016 at 09:21, cregan said:

Interesting. It's similar to something I've been trying - and failing - to implement with Sunderland (they have a similar mix, albeit of much more suspect quality: Defoe for Vardy, Borini as a wide attacker cutting in, Januzaj winger, a much more attacking DL in Van Aanholt than on the right, a couple of sluggers in MC in Cattermole (whose passing range seems surprisingly decent, roughly in the Drinkwater role) and Ndong, and some highly suspect central defenders). I'm interested to see how this plays out because, with a slightly different formation and Flexible rather than Structured, we've been very, very porous.

Sorry just now catching up on various replies, as been so busy writing up the posts!

Interesting to see how you get on with Sunderland. I actually had a very quick blast with them on day 1 of the Beta. The squad is not that awful. Although not sure you have a solid RB (Manquillo is great going forward, not sure he is a great defender, and Billy Jones always looks just a touch below PL level). Defoe can be an "on the shoulder type" but maybe his pace is just a tick off that of Vardy. He does have the PPMs. With Borini, the poor decision making would worry me, and i hate the "Shoots from distance" PPM.

Also be good to understand what the thinking was behind Flexible?

13 hours ago, Svenc said:

I tried to do something approaching it on FM 2016 back then. This was really a quick test save, but i personally went with an attacking mentality as it is the attacking mentalities that will make players more prone to look to move it forward. Coupled with an encouragement to drop deeper than the standard allows. For the heck of it, I even added go more direct and pass into space / more risky balls into the mix. This was on FMT and I never micromanaged during the matches, nor watching, having it all on text commentary and max speed, except for subbing players. As such it likely was no coincidence that the actually point drops came against smaller sides who play more defensively, the big dogs in particular when conceding are playing off obscenely high lines as of FM 2016. Which impacts both the space available immediately when you win the ball back as they totally stand their ground at the half way line until the ball carrier comes knocking on the same, as well as the positioning when they retreat, so that even deep into enemy territory there is space that Vardy can cut inside into, or somebody play a through ball in behind (line settings were tweaked that way to be lots more aggressive). Top of the league by the end of December with an average pass completion of below 65%, but an overall total shot conversion of 17% (pretty much every 6th shot attempt a goal, thus, whilst the game average hovers around every 10th), seemed legit.

Not sure what things look like exactly on FM 2017, but naturally, that is space "gifted" that eventually may not be available anymore as opponents may approach matches more cautiously and cautiously if success continues.

Interesting thoughts. Personally i dont want the additional risk taking that "attacking" mentality brings. Your setup sounds more true counter attack than mine. I also think your sounds like something which would not necessarily involve a little number 10 / playmaker, which was something i wanted to work in.

As you will see now i have written more things up, there is defo a difference depending on which team we play, and i enjoy that - looking to make sure the system can handle different situations.

13 hours ago, phnompenhandy said:

Terrific thread Jambo. When you're a few weeks in maybe you can offer a reflection on how your Leicester this season is comparing with Ranieri's Leicester. Can you offer him any tactical suggestions to improve his Premier League record (including re. rotation, where you share the same dilemmas)?!

Crikey, i am nowhere near qualified to offer Ranieri tips :D:D I will probably fail badly after about 10 games here! Ranieri has done ok this weekend too Personally, i think Musa is a mistake signing, but i could be proven wrong.

12 hours ago, TheJanitor said:

It's ok. It was arrogant of me to just say how he would fit without even looking at him, I just based it of the few real life game I saw from him and how I recalled him from previous games.

Also, what I suggested was merely how I'd use him as plan B. It will change aspects of how you play, but that still be how I would try to fit him in.

No worries - nothing wrong with posting suggestions. Especially since you have seen more of him in real than me

I guess my point was more that when you talk about how you would put him in Plan B, are you really thinking over the overall system? You would leave out the creator of the team, in games when, actually, his ability to unlock something might be more important than ever?

8 hours ago, herne79 said:

Best quote I've seen for a long time.

In all honesty though as we're still in Beta I'd upload that pkm to the bugs forum to take a look at those direct free kicks. Pretty sure that's something SI were looking to balance.

If only that scoreline reflected real life...COYI .

Yeah i will stick it up over in the bugs forum. I have also scored 2 with Fuchs this season already.

ianscousemac · October 23, 2016

On 22/10/2016 at 04:21, Jambo98 said:

Step 1 - The starting point - having an idea / vision

This for me is a piece of simple advice thats so helpful. Its helped me as I previously played games and never really had a vision or style I wanted to play. This led to me chopping/changing tactics trying to play people in their best roles which made the team very unbalanced at times and results where often so inconsistent.

Someone else posted it on an FM 16 thread may of been herne79 in his back to basics thread. I now have a clear idea of how I want to play and this defines my transfer policy, attributes and PPM that I look for. This has led to me getting results on a more consistent basis and sees my team improve in every transfer window.

yipster1986 · October 23, 2016

Loving the new addition where you display your thought process to provide different options when an opponent sits deep.

im managing RSC Anderlecht, which is a top side in Belgium. Most of my opponents sit deep and restrict space in the final third. Too many times I tried lunging men forward only to be caught out on the counter and lose the game 1-0

I really need to try something different like droppping my mentality from Control to Standard or maybe adjust a role from CM to get me another runner from deep. It really is something that pains my mind from time to time ?

Anyway, keep it up! I'll keep on reading

cregan · October 23, 2016

1 hour ago, Jambo98 said:

Interesting to see how you get on with Sunderland. I actually had a very quick blast with them on day 1 of the Beta. The squad is not that awful. Although not sure you have a solid RB (Manquillo is great going forward, not sure he is a great defender, and Billy Jones always looks just a touch below PL level). Defoe can be an "on the shoulder type" but maybe his pace is just a tick off that of Vardy. He does have the PPMs. With Borini, the poor decision making would worry me, and i hate the "Shoots from distance" PPM.

Also be good to understand what the thinking was behind Flexible?

I'd gone Flexible because it nudged the players that little bit closer together and while I'm happy for people to run into space, I didn't want too many regular passes leaving the floor because they're very much a team of shorties (in my last match I had only three outfield players with a Jumping Reach higher than 10). Since you started this thread I've tried switching to Structured - anything to tighten up - and the last couple of games have been markedly better, including a total smash-and-grab against Chelsea where we played 70 minutes with only ten men but they couldn't find a way through until the 75th when we were 2-0 up.

Borini's done OK playing as a faux-RMD from MR (I started with him more advanced in pre-season and he barely got into the game), though his shooting's definitely wayward at times, but his poor decisions doesn't show up much, if only because the team as a whole is full of people with Decisions below 10. I'm playing 4-1-4-1 with Cattermole in a more defensive - don't laugh; I can barely believe I'm typing it - Pirlo DLP role with a CM(A) and BBM ahead of him, because Khazri's injured and Januzaj is the only other AMC option. The other major difference with your Leicester side, other than individual quality, is that my attacking wingback overlaps the winger instead of slotting into Borini's space. I might change that if I have to play Manquillo too often; you're right that he's not great in defence and Charlie Taylor, signed to compete with Van Aanholt, is more dependable in that respect, but with Borini at MR he's more inclined to track back so there isn't quite the same yawning gulf ahead.

I'm interested to see how the CM(D)-BBM pairing you've got works out over time because I'd started off trying a CM(D)-CM(S) and they were forever tripping over each other. Though I don't know what Mendy & Drinkwater's PPMs are like and if they'd make it less likely.

Jambo98 · October 24, 2016

7 hours ago, ianscousemac said:

This for me is a piece of simple advice thats so helpful. Its helped me as I previously played games and never really had a vision or style I wanted to play. This led to me chopping/changing tactics trying to play people in their best roles which made the team very unbalanced at times and results where often so inconsistent.

Someone else posted it on an FM 16 thread may of been herne79 in his back to basics thread. I now have a clear idea of how I want to play and this defines my transfer policy, attributes and PPM that I look for. This has led to me getting results on a more consistent basis and sees my team improve in every transfer window.

It is simple. but it is so easy to not follow it. I have done it plenty times myself. Picked a team and started with "oh well, Cassano is a prefect Treq,so i need one of those" and "we have 2 good DMs, lets go with that........" - no thought around what i am trying to create. There is nothing wrong with shaping your idea to fit the squad you have (as opposed to using the idea to shape your transfer / squad policy) but you need to think of the entire idea, not just a few roles. I think / hope i did a hybrid of this in this system. The idea for pacey players running into space is shapped by the squad i have. The idea of a playmaker supporting is my idea to compliment it

6 hours ago, yipster1986 said:

Loving the new addition where you display your thought process to provide different options when an opponent sits deep.

im managing RSC Anderlecht, which is a top side in Belgium. Most of my opponents sit deep and restrict space in the final third. Too many times I tried lunging men forward only to be caught out on the counter and lose the game 1-0

I really need to try something different like droppping my mentality from Control to Standard or maybe adjust a role from CM to get me another runner from deep. It really is something that pains my mind from time to time ?

Anyway, keep it up! I'll keep on reading

Yeah i think you have to accept you will come up against different types of team. I dont commit any more men forward in that situation (i am already verging on very risky with the attacking wingback and BBM). Infact, in the 7 or so games so far (i am behind in write ups) i have made only very minimal attacking tweaks at any point. I trust in my players and in the system. We might not score until the 70th minute, but that is fine.

Control mentality against a parked bus might work at times, but depends on the context. For example, control plus "drop much deeper" might create space and give a nice level of risk, but you need to have the right blend of roles and duties.

Oh and runners from deep are a brilliant weapon in any system, and when you have one with "arrives late in opponents area"..........

6 hours ago, cregan said:

I'd gone Flexible because it nudged the players that little bit closer together and while I'm happy for people to run into space, I didn't want too many regular passes leaving the floor because they're very much a team of shorties (in my last match I had only three outfield players with a Jumping Reach higher than 10). Since you started this thread I've tried switching to Structured - anything to tighten up - and the last couple of games have been markedly better, including a total smash-and-grab against Chelsea where we played 70 minutes with only ten men but they couldn't find a way through until the 75th when we were 2-0 up.

Borini's done OK playing as a faux-RMD from MR (I started with him more advanced in pre-season and he barely got into the game), though his shooting's definitely wayward at times, but his poor decisions doesn't show up much, if only because the team as a whole is full of people with Decisions below 10. I'm playing 4-1-4-1 with Cattermole in a more defensive - don't laugh; I can barely believe I'm typing it - Pirlo DLP role with a CM(A) and BBM ahead of him, because Khazri's injured and Januzaj is the only other AMC option. The other major difference with your Leicester side, other than individual quality, is that my attacking wingback overlaps the winger instead of slotting into Borini's space. I might change that if I have to play Manquillo too often; you're right that he's not great in defence and Charlie Taylor, signed to compete with Van Aanholt, is more dependable in that respect, but with Borini at MR he's more inclined to track back so there isn't quite the same yawning gulf ahead.

I'm interested to see how the CM(D)-BBM pairing you've got works out over time because I'd started off trying a CM(D)-CM(S) and they were forever tripping over each other. Though I don't know what Mendy & Drinkwater's PPMs are like and if they'd make it less likely.

nteresting thoughts. I would not expect Flexible > Structured to overly incease long balls to the head, but maybe i have not thought about it enough. Interesting that structured has tightened things up - the overall effect might depend on a lot of things, but of course it nudges down creative feedom a little, which will help keep the shape somewhat.

One of the surprising things about this system, is that Mahrez as RDM does his share of tracking back. With your system..........well, you listed out a load of roles there, but how do you see them clicking together? Who is Catermole picking out with his playmaker passes? CM(a) and BBM is an interesting combo, but what do you want from each of those in attacking and defensive phases?

The CM pairing i have is one area i am not totally sold on. I will try and do a post looking at in detail. I like the attacking balance, but defensively the CM(d) does not always behave just quite as i would like. The lack of a DM can be a concern, especially since my team is not very compact vertiically to start with. As with most things, a level of compromise is going to be needed. I cant have it all - amazing solid defence and potent attacking from a 2 man midfield is not that likely

tyler16 · October 24, 2016

I actually think Slimani is perfect as the striker against teams who sit deep. Incredible finisher and a force in the air. Then bring on Vardy when you bag the goal.

cregan · October 24, 2016

6 hours ago, Jambo98 said:

nteresting thoughts. I would not expect Flexible > Structured to overly incease long balls to the head, but maybe i have not thought about it enough. Interesting that structured has tightened things up - the overall effect might depend on a lot of things, but of course it nudges down creative feedom a little, which will help keep the shape somewhat.

One of the surprising things about this system, is that Mahrez as RDM does his share of tracking back. With your system..........well, you listed out a load of roles there, but how do you see them clicking together? Who is Catermole picking out with his playmaker passes? CM(a) and BBM is an interesting combo, but what do you want from each of those in attacking and defensive phases?

That's interesting that Mahrez does. Borini's got the work rate for it, but maybe Decisions affects the choice to follow back or not from the AM strata? Or maybe there's a difference in Aggression between the two? I can't for the life of me remember Borini's off the top of my head, but he was definitely poorer than I'd hoped as an outright RMD (is there any difference in how a WM roams with the PI and how an RMD does it, I wonder?). Cattermole's main passing outlet is Januzaj, and he's got the PPM for trying long range and (mostly) decent mentals so his variation seems pretty sensible when Januzaj's marked. Januzaj's then capable of hitting it from deep to Borini or Defoe to race on to, which seems to work pretty well - the pair of them, allowing for lost stats due to game crashes (which put paid to a blistering 4-0 win last night :mad: ) are each scoring at roughly the same rate, and all three rank as our best players for average rating. Cattermole wouldn't be my first choice in a playmaker role, to be honest, and his Flair is dire even if his passing qualities are surprisingly good, but you have to play the hand you're dealt, and Larsson, the other option, hasn't impressed in the role at all.

I was unsure about the midfield combo as well, because they risk a headless chicken rush upfield with every transition, but the more sedate roles either fell over each other or Cattermole or left too little support. Khazri can play AMC so I might swap out the CM(A) once he's fit and switch DLP for DM. So far, though, the BBM drops back into the DM strata to help Cattermole defensively, as well as pushing up into AM with the CM on the attack, while the CM makes his forward runs earlier in transition and offers Januzaj a shorter outlet if the long ball's not on.

I suppose the end result is a different split of the jobs filled by your AP(A) and CM(D), in that the defensive player is also the instigator, while the forward man from midfield is more of a willing runner for others, particularly if/as attacks mature, as well as offering some tackling cover in the midfield strata on the defence (it was my CM(A) who got sent off against Chelsea, hacking down Pedro a little way outside our area).

Jambo98 · October 24, 2016

Games 4 onwards - A case for the (lack of) defence

so after the opening 3 games, i was reasonably confident i have the starting point for a good system. The West Ham game was just crazy, but the performance going forward against all teams pleased me, and in an attacking sense it played out exactly as i hoped pretty much. Some nice variety. I have played on for a bit now and that patern has continued to pleas me. Infact, if i show my goals and assits from the squad after 12 total competitive games, there is a great spread of goals and assists, together with the fact that our main striker is the main source of goals

So that is the good, now for the bad.......Ah the defence. Someone used the word "porous" earlier in the thread, and that would be apt. We just cannot keep goals out. Here are the first 12 fixtures / results:

Shipping another 5 against Chelsea was pretty bad, but it was another slightly crazy game. We scored 2 OGs (Neither under any pressure) within 23mins then had a man sent off with 20mins to go. However conceding 3 against Sunderland was not good. I give the team a bit of a pass for the 2 conceded in the league cup, as that was a full reserve side, but we concede another 2 in the CL to astra and further goals against Burnley and Swansea. Then the last straw, for now, was losing 2 v 0 to Man U in a game where we created far more than them.

So, clearly we have a problem here. I did not expect us to be water tight. I know we have a moderately attacking formation, and have 4 attack roles and 2 support in the side, but i was not expecting us to be this open. I need to delve into the cause some more, which could be any number of things including player quality, team shape, mis-aligned roles, bad luck.........or indeed a combo of all of those.

So where do i start? Some basic analysis of the goals conceded. For the purpose of this, i am going to totally ignore the west ham game. That might be a risk - there were 2 goals in there which might be worth analysing, but the effect of being 5 or 6 goals down on morale convince me just to not go there.

The analysis - Sifting

First things first, i know that this is a Beta and there will be some grips likely. And i also know having watched every game on "comprehensive" that we have just some bad luck. I also know we have a specific ssue defending set pieces, which i will hive off and look at separately. So what i want to do, is go through the 11 games and look at all the goals against, and identify which i will analyse in proper detail, which i will ignore, and which go in the set piece defending pile to look at later.

So, here we go, game by game, goal by goal

Game 1 - Man U

Goal 1 - Open play goal - To be analysed further

Game 3 - Bournemouth

Goal 1 - Header from free kick - Looked at under set pieces

Game 4 - Sunderland

Goal 1 - Open play goal (ish) - To be analysed further

Goal 2 - Header from free kick - Looked at under set pieces

Goal 3 - Open play goal - To be analysed further

Game 5 - Chelsea

Goal 1 - OG under no pressure - No value in analysing at this stage

Goal 2 - OG under no pressure - No value in analysing at this stage

Goal 3 - Header from corner - Looked at under set pieces

Goal 4 - Open play goal - To be analysed further

Goal 5 - Open play goal - To be analysed further

Game 6 - Napoli

Goal 1 - Open play goal - To be analysed further

Game 7 - Southampton

No goals

Game 8 - Burnley

Goal 1 - Open play goal - to be analysed further

Goal 2 - Open play goal - to be analysed further

Game 9 - Swansea

Goal 1 - Open play goal - to be analysed further

Game 10 - AFC Astra

Goal 1 - Volley from a corner - To be looked at under set pieces

Goal 2 - Header from a free kick - to be looked at under set pieces

Game 11 - Burnley

Goal 1 - open play goal - To be analysed further

Game 12 - Man U

Goal 1 - Open play goal - To be analysed further

Goal 2 - Volley from a free kick - To be looked at under set pieces

So there we go. 11 goals identified across 11 games (Game 2 missed out - West Ham) which is a good enough number to get me some valuable info i hope. Next post i will post up screenshots / videos with accompanying thoughts from me around the build up and cause of each goal. Some will be prevetable, some wont be, and some will just be West Morgan.........

herne79 · October 24, 2016

Brilliant.

If you don't know how you concede, how do you know what to fix.

I think you're right about the West Ham game @Jambo98. Morale would have been shot after that opening, although the goals from open play may be worth a look if you need any further evidence once your analysis is complete to see if they fit any pattern. 2 to keep up your sleeve if needed perhaps.

Great stuff.

Jambo98 · October 24, 2016

Cheer @herne79

I am a big believer in analysis and doing things methodically. Ironically, i have a pretty good idea of what the problem is and knew the potential solution 4 or 5 games ago, but i am being held back from pulling the trigger on the change partly because of a failed attempt in FM16 which brought some feedback around this particular change!

I just had a crash dump but luckily only lost 1 game (the Man U game) so i will analyse the other goals this afternoon

Jambo98 · October 24, 2016

The analysis

So my aim here is to watch back the goals, using screenshots and gif's to pinpoint where we could have done better and see if there are specific actions and / or patterns. If anyone is sad enough to want to view the PKMs, i might attach them as well

Goal 1 - Man U pass around us.

This was the equaliser in the charity shield. Tactical familiarity was still pretty low here, and we had some new signings bedding in. This is actually a really nice goal from Utd side, but i can pinpoint a couple of minor issues for us:

Starting point - We have just cleared a corner and gotten back into shape. We have our back 4 in a nice line. The one emerging issue we have here, is that Drinkwater is hammering out to close down the ball carrier (Blind) even though Saponara is closer, i assume by virtue of quite different closing down settings between AP and BBM.

Now we have an issue. Blind just slips it into Pogba, who is now beyond Drinkwater. Mendy is over minding rooney which is fair but Pogba now has space to turn into. We have another emerging issue at LB where Fuchs has 2 men to mark (Lingard and Mata)

If we play the clip on, something quite predictable happens. Pog slides it into Memphis who is moving away from goal. Unfortunately, Morgan follows him out (classic FM13/14 behaviour!), which of course leaves a gap in behind which Ibra ruthlessly exploits. Huth gets caught in between closing down the runner and staying central. Mata moves into the space Huth has just vacated and has a tap in.

So there are a few things here which concern me:

1) Drinkwater aggresive closing down

2) Morgan closing down following the player out (Although i doubt this can be stopped)

3) Potentially the movement of Huth, although that is probably very harsh.

I do also acknowledge, its a well worked goal. But those first 2 in particular i need to watch for more examples

Goal 2 - Sunderland helped out by my DC's crazy closing down.

This is a very poor goal for us. Starts with a Sunderland freekick and right away, what on earth is going on. IT appears to be too far out to have invoked my "defending free kicks set piece routine" (which should have 4 men man marking). So what we have ended up with, is 3 men (Amartey, Gonzalo and Fuchs) standing round one Sunderland player, meanwhile Wes Morgan is left with 3, one of whom is already behind him. Not good positioning.

Sunderland take it short to the player in space ahead of Morgan, who of course charges out to close down. That is not ideal as now Kharzi has space to run into in the box. However Drinkwater has at least tried to drop in to cover.

Of Course Ndong does the smart thing and plays the through ball into space for Kharzi. But now we are in some real bother. Not only has Drinks tracked the run, but Luis Hernandez has cut in from RB to also try and stop the run (good defending). For reasons passing understanding though, my 2 lumping Centrebacks decide that 2 v 1 isnt good enough for us and BOTH go charging out as well. This leaves a lovely huge space for Kharzi to put the ball into and Fuchs with 2 in rushing players to cover. He tracks neither, and it is laid to Januzaj to tap in from a yard out.

Fuming at that goal to be honest, but what can we take from it:

1) The initial starting points are just wierd. I will check if this is related to my set piece instructions, and if not perhaps raise over in the bugs forum.

2) The 2 DCs have absolutely no need to charge out and close down Kharzi. They should be where CB's should be. In the middle cutting out any cross. Perhaps again down to the instructions, although this might also be attribute related as its pretty basic defensive behavior

Goal 3 - Sunderland play us at our own game

Using space in behind teams combined with pace to score a goal.......sound familiar

This one starts with Sunderland defending a free kick near the corner of their own box. We are moderately conservative in oursetup. We leave back RB and one DC, as well as CM. 3 players and all defensive types we hope is enough to snuff out counters.

Here the initial clearance has come to Defoe. He has space in front, and men making counter attacking runs either side. We have 3 back, and Fuchs (who took the free kick) busting a gut to get back.

Defoe does the right thing and slides it out to Januzaj. Now the free man is way on the far side. If i have a slight concern here, it is Fuchs and Gonzalo. Gonzalo was the left most player who had stayed back, but now as Fuchs is getting back into position i would expect him to take over the closing down, allow Gonzalo to move back central, and push everyone further right so that Luis H is closer to the man wide right. However in this screenshot, Fuchs is running past Gonzalo, running and facing away from play. Presumably trying to get back into the LB slot, but there is no one even close to overlapping. I am probably asking a bit much of the ME here though to be honest, its quite a complicated bit of defending to pull off.

From here, i will let the clip show it. Januzaj pulls off the crossfield ball to Kharzi, who slips it into Piennar who has joined the counter. He has a 2 v 1 and with one touch sends in Defoe, who finishes. Kasper doesnt look too clever trying to save it, but i think thats just bad animation. Not much chance he should save from there anyway.

Looking at this one a couple of times, you know what, tip of the cap to Sunderland. It is a well executed counter attack. I feel comfortable with my cover from attacking FK's in general, this time they just pulled it off. I am not seeing anything particularly tactical about how we defended that one.

Will analyse some more in a seperate post in a while

Fosse · October 24, 2016

Solid analysis again Jambo, I don't often think people are unlucky on these forums as people usually lose as a result of poorly designed tactics or player quality (myself included) but I do feel that you're suffering a little bit from bad luck and match engine quirks

Jambo98 · October 24, 2016

7 minutes ago, Fosse said:

Solid analysis again Jambo, I don't often think people are unlucky on these forums as people usually lose as a result of poorly designed tactics or player quality (myself included) but I do feel that you're suffering a little bit from bad luck and match engine quirks

Thanks. I think there are always many different factors at play. Luck is certainly one of them, its foolish to ignore luck. ME quirks are also something that when playing a BETA of a game, you have to accept. We get access to the BETA to help develop the final game, we must not grumble when its not perfect (believe me i grumble plenty at the screen during games!). There are many more goals to analyse, and already seeing a couple of things i could benefit from tweaking, but want to see more of a pattern before i wade in with changes.

Next few goals analysis should go up shortly for anyone still interested

yipster1986 · October 24, 2016

I am so excited to get home from work and start reading your analysis! Keep 'em coming

Jambo98 · October 24, 2016

The Analysis - Part 2

So continuing where i left off earlier.

Goal 4 - To easy for Chelsea

This is a poor one to watch back. And interesting again how to starts. Here is how the move starts, Matic has the ball at his feet. We have a nice back 4 all in a line, good positioning. Note Mahrez also has tracked back here covering Azpil. I there is a concern, it is the space between Mendy and Drinkwater, my 2 CM's. When you have a CM paring in the same strata, and one is closing down heavily, the other one one not, your asking for this kind of trouble.

Matic takes the easy pass into Willian, and this next frame is only 2 secs later. Who can see the emerging problem here.......Our nice flat back 4 is now far from flat

Interestingly this time, Willian does not take the obvious pass into the space big Wes vacates. Instead he takes the ball for a run cross field, Wes half heartedly follows but does not make a challenge. We have a 2 on 2 on Fuchs and Gonzalo now, but Simpson has tucked in nicely to give me an extra man. Where we have an emerging problem however, is that Mahrez, having tracked back this far, decides that is far enough and is letting Azpil go free. He cant really pass him onto Fuchs, as Fuchs already has Pedro. The entire play has passed Mendy, he was no used here....

Now Willian plays it wide to Azpil, who is free. Now we seem to have another emerging problem. 3 of our back 4 have ended up clustered together, meanwhile Mauro Icardi has all the space in the world to run into between our defenders. That can never be a good sign.

Sure enough, Azpil delivers, Icardi is able to saunter in between 3 of my defensive players for a header which he makes no mistake with

Overall, not a good goal to give away. We were already 3 v 1 down to 2 own goals and a set piece, and this has put us out of the game. In terms of takeways........where to start:

1) Again, the issue of a DC coming charging out. Its a theme alright.

2) The mismatch in pressing between Drinkwater and Mendy - Sometimes its good, indeed even encouraged to have a pairing where 1 sits, one harries, but this shows one of the real practical issues with that approach in a 2 man midfield with no DM

3) The poor marking again inside the box. Possibly stems from Morgan being dragged around in the first place, but its not good to watch.

Goal 5 - Suicidal pressing with 10 men against Chelsea

This is an interesting one. I was going to skip over it, because we were down to 10 men, 4 v 1 down and had players playing out of position. However when i watched it back i found it hard to believe it was my team i was watching.

The starting point is just after a Chelsea free kick, which was laid off then hit from distance. Kasper saved it and palmed it out to his right, where Pedro went to collecte. However we have 7 bodies back inside the box, should be fairly safe.

Pedro plays it back to the edge of the area to Oscar, and annoyingly 2 of my players both race out to close him down, leaving Cesc with all the space in the world

But it gets worse. Now Schlupp (Playing LB in an emergency, as Fuchs has been sent off) decides to leave the man he is marking in the box (William and go out to close Cesc down. Now, there is certainly a case here that Cesc had to be closed down. We cant just let him pick the ball up with time, but Gonzalo is not marking anyone, where as Schlupp is. He could have been the one to go out.

I wont even bother to show the ending - Needless to say that Cesc flicks it to William, who finishes first time into the far corner.

That is a really poor goal again. I give some leeway for the fact that we were a man down, 3 goals down and had players out of position, but the closing down decisions seem poor. The first one by the 2 CMs interests me most. The Schlupp one, i have to believe a regular LB doesnt do that. Schlupp has a poor decision making attribute and not great positioning, so might help explain it.

Few more to analyse in a seperate post later, but a couple of key trends are certainly already emerging

RTHerringbone · October 24, 2016

Bloody good thread Jambo98 :applause:

I love it when people take time to describe their vision and then analyse it's evolution in depth. I've not been round this bit of the forum as much as I used to, but this is as thorough a thread as I can remember in recent history. Keep it up!

Jambo98 · October 24, 2016

The Analysis - Part 3

Onwards we go with a few more goals to look at to see if the themes continue.

Goal 6 - Napoli counter attack us

This might be one of those again where its a tip of the hat, but lets have a look. The starting point is that Sapanora is about to be tacked / beaten to the ball by Hamsik as we are on the attack. We do have our CM(d), Mendy holding back so we are not exposed to much, but note right at the bottom of the screen that Mings is now caught beyond his man down the far side. This is a risk i accept by playing a WB(a) on that wing, and at this stage, unless they produce a raking diagonal, which takes some talent, its not a huge issue.

Instead, The ball is laid into Gabbiadini, who has come short. This time, really interestingly (and for what reason, i am not sure), Wes Morgan does not chase him out. He stays put, which i am pleased with. Note that Mings, whilst not quite now covering Callejon, has got close to him. Conversely, Luis H has not tracked INsigne, who if you look at the previous pick was in front of him, and is now behind and free for a short lay off.

Now we start to have an issue. Mendy goes over to cut off Insigne, as he really had to do, but that leaves Mertens in a lot of space. My Centre backs have dropped off, which is fine, i make that choice via my deep dline. Mings now should have Callejon covered (who wants to guess what happens next........)

Yeah.....that was predictable Mings, does not infact have Callejon covered. Mertens takes the ball in that space, and quickly moves it on towards Callejon. For some reason, Mings stops tracking his run, or slows down in the last few yards, giving Callejon a clear route to goal and he finishes.

Here is a clip which just follows the Callejon v Mings race........

So what to take from that? Hmmm. For now, i am going to just go with it was 2 fullbacks, neither of whom are first choice / very good for CL level, who both didnt track runners. I make the choice to risk having an LB upfield as we attack, and the risk is multiplied when its a player who is not as quick or good as Fuchs in that role. Maybe a bit of a managerial learning - Do i need to tweak that role when Fuchs is not available?

Goal 7 - Burnley score a screamer

Yeah watched this back, its a screamer, from a blocked shot rebound which goes off the underside of the bar and in. Tip of the cap, no value in analysing.

Goal 8 - Burnley Play round then over us

A little more in this, not a lot but at least one issue, which whilst not the cause of the goal, backs up previous thoughts.

Starting point here is Gudmundson picking the ball up in the inside right channel for Burnley. No huge threat immediately. One good point is that Okazaki (Playing the RMD role today) has tracked the RB who has gone forward

The ball is played infield, a little surprisingly, to Ade. He comes short, and here is the issue again, Huth chases him out a long way, even with other players aound. Huth is the guy right on top of Ade in this picture. His harrying doesnt even help, as Ade gets an easy ball off. Note that Okazaki has given up tracking an turned all the way round to go back up field. I actually dont have a huge issue with that. He tracked back so far, the ball went infield rather than to the overlap so he naturally returned to his attacking role.

Now we are off to the races. Lowton is lots of space, and Vokes is 1 v 1 with the big Pole centreback. Nothing to be too worried about, you have to trust your DC in a 1 v 1 in the air like that.

Ok, not so much trust when its your 4th choice DC who is 36 and playing in his first game of the season Vokes heads home.

The only issue in this goal, is the Huth rushing out. It plays no real part in the goal, but its soemthing i noticed yet again. The actual goal.....meh, this is the league cup, all backups and Vokes just beast the DC in the air.

Phew. Too much analysis yet?

Fosse · October 24, 2016

Well you are playing Schlupp, I don't know what you expect :idiot:

Jambo98 · October 24, 2016

54 minutes ago, RTHerringbone said:

Bloody good thread Jambo98

I love it when people take time to describe their vision and then analyse it's evolution in depth. I've not been round this bit of the forum as much as I used to, but this is as thorough a thread as I can remember in recent history. Keep it up!

Cheers RTH - Your insights are missed around here (says me, who had about 1 post in 8 months in here before this week!)

10 minutes ago, Fosse said:

Well you are playing Schlupp, I don't know what you expect

This one is just for you :brock:

Fosse · October 24, 2016

Just now, Jambo98 said:

Cheers RTH - Your insights are missed around here (says me, who had about 1 post in 8 months in here before this week!)

This one is just for you

His concentration stat should be 1 in game. There's a video (which I can't find) where all of our players are celebrating at Sunderland away because we stayed up and he has no idea what they're doing

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