Unreal transfer fees

[Arkon]

I have noticed that asking prices/selling prices for players do not reflect reality.

Then I saw this problem in a thread that was closed recently:

"Unbelievably unrealistic player transfer negotiations "

It was stated that "this is by design, and is not a bug".

I believe this is an important design issue that should be open to general discussion.

The example was regarding Bryan Cristante who's club were asking 72 million Euros! for the 19 year old!

We all know the usual procedure with this type of thing - they ask a certain amount and you barter with them so the €72m probably ends up roughly around the €45-50 mill mark.

To me this is unrealistic regardless to if the club wants to keep the player and who could just say he is not for sale.

And in any case there are not many clubs who could afford to turn down say €20-25 mill for an unproven 19 year old regardless of potential.

(Neymar cost €57 million and he WAS proven.)

Anyway the proof is in the pudding as they say:

"On 1 September 2014, Bryan Cristante signed a five-year contract with Portuguese champions S.L. Benfica for a €3 million transfer fee"

The one thought I do have is that this is done as a form of game balance so that one cannot proceed too fast...

Arkon

[Torminator]

If i bid on a player and they ask 50mil + its a sign to me that they dont want to sell to me. It could be that im a rival or that the player is important. The trick is to track the player throughout the season and see if you cna get him after the season or after they signed a player in the same position. I dont mind at all.

Then again this discussion has been repeated extensively.

[forameuss]

- You don't have the divine right to sign anyone you want

- Some players you are never going to get without shelling out "unreal fees"

- Some players you will be quoted "unreal fees", but can use negotiation to get it down to a less "unreal fee".

- This is by design, and is absolutely correct

That about covers it.

[Cougar2010]

You really aren't getting it are you Arkon.

The club don't expect you paying the high quoted price or even negotiating it down. You are expected to recognise that they don't want to sell and either bide your time or move onto other targets.

The fault is with you not recognising this and continuing to try to sign the player.

[Kriss]

If you "make an enquiry* and the player is not for sale at any price you'll be told so, that should help you sort out who is worth bidding for.

[Smurf]

How come Benfica were able to sign the player for £3m?

[cleaner475]

I can't really sum it up any better than Cougar2010 tbh.

This type of thread appears fairly regularly because people don't seem to understand how transfers work.

Arsenal have a really highly rated youngster called Zelalem, now IRL if Manchester United came in and offered £20M they'd be rebuffed straight away because Arsenal know he could become a world class player one day so why would they sell him now for a relatively low amount compared to what his potential value could be? The point is though that Manchester United would never ever bid for Zelalem because they know Arsenal would never sell. In Football Manager you can bid on whoever you want though, unrealistic or not, and for this reason clubs will ask for a large amount of money on youngsters because IRL they'd be unrealistic transfers.

[jumbohotdog]

How come Benfica were able to sign the player for £3m?

IMO it is because of the financial situation of AC Milan irl

[forameuss]

I can't really sum it up any better than Cougar2010 tbh.

This type of thread appears fairly regularly because people don't seem to understand how transfers work.

Arsenal have a really highly rated youngster called Zelalem, now IRL if Manchester United came in and offered £20M they'd be rebuffed straight away because Arsenal know he could become a world class player one day so why would they sell him now for a relatively low amount compared to what his potential value could be? The point is though that Manchester United would never ever bid for Zelalem because they know Arsenal would never sell. In Football Manager you can bid on whoever you want though, unrealistic or not, and for this reason clubs will ask for a large amount of money on youngsters because IRL they'd be unrealistic transfers.

This is correct. FM has to put in a construct to guard against the bids that would never be made in real life, and it does it well enough for most.

[mchbitil]

I raised this issue with FM2014. High PA with young age always results in crazy transfer fees. So I suggested removing the PA as one way to solve this. http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/396292-Remove-the-Potential-Ability-from-FM2015!

[mchbitil]

This is correct. FM has to put in a construct to guard against the bids that would never be made in real life, and it does it well enough for most.

In real life, Arsenal would still sell Zelalem to MU if they offer some significant money. I think $20M would be enough

[cleaner475]

In real life, Arsenal would still sell Zelalem to MU if they offer some significant money. I think $20M would be enough

I disagree, but the overall point is that Man United would never bid for him as they know they won't get him. Human players don't do 'realistic' things and so the game has to have a system that stops them.

[Arkon]

You really aren't getting it are you Arkon.

The club don't expect you paying the high quoted price or even negotiating it down. You are expected to recognise that they don't want to sell and either bide your time or move onto other targets.

The fault is with you not recognising this and continuing to try to sign the player.

Don't get what?

If the club do not want to sell the p[layer then they should simply state so, instead of inventing this €72m for a player who actually sold for €3m...

It is unrealistic, adds nothing to the game, and is pointless.

I was NOT the one trying to buy the player, I was stating what was reported in the previous thread.

Anyways, glad people are discussing the issue now.

[jumbohotdog]

Don't get what?

If the club do not want to sell the p[layer then they should simply state so, instead of inventing this €72m for a player who actually sold for €3m...

It is unrealistic, adds nothing to the game, and is pointless.

I was NOT the one trying to buy the player, I was stating what was reported in the previous thread.

Anyways, glad people are discussing the issue now.

This was the previous system and a lot of people whined about it being not realistic

[forameuss]

I raised this issue with FM2014. High PA with young age always results in crazy transfer fees. So I suggested removing the PA as one way to solve this. http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/396292-Remove-the-Potential-Ability-from-FM2015!

:confused:

You know what would stop the problems with conceding from corners? Let's just remove corners from the game! Foolproof!

[carmeloanthony015]

This was the previous system and a lot of people whined about it being not realistic

So they replaced it with a more unrealistic one

[El Presidente]

I have to agree that the club should just say "not for sale". However, are you quite sure that the club turning down your bid did not force the player to become unhappy and demand a move? Hence the £3m later?

The saying "money talks" does not apply to FM. It should do alot more than it does. Given the choice of selling to someone in the same division for £20m or selling abroad for £3m which do you think the business would plump for?

[jumbohotdog]

I have to agree that the club should just say "not for sale". However, are you quite sure that the club turning down your bid did not force the player to become unhappy and demand a move? Hence the £3m later?

The saying "money talks" does not apply to FM. It should do alot more than it does. Given the choice of selling to someone in the same division for £20m or selling abroad for £3m which do you think the business would plump for?

This happened IRL

[jumbohotdog]

So they replaced it with a more unrealistic one

What would be realistic for you? The AI accepts your "reasonable" bid on the first try?

[Kriss]

I have to agree that the club should just say "not for sale".

They DO, if you make an inquiry rather than a bid, which is a pretty sensible thing to do anyway isn't it?

[carmeloanthony015]

What would be realistic for you? The AI accepts your "reasonable" bid on the first try?

If they want to negotiate they negotiate with realistic numbers. Otherwise they simply reject.

I remember that Kakà, already known as one of the best brasilian prospect, was bought for 9M from AC Milan.

Asking 72M (but even 30M would be unrealistic) for Cristante, who have played 7 first team matches in all his career, just make me

Sorry for my poor English

[mchbitil]

There is no such thing as "not for sale for any price" in real world. Any club would sell any player for some money, especially young and unproven players. Even if Arsenal won't sell Zelalem for $20M, they would gladly sell him for $100M - and they will add Welbeck for free just to get your 100.

Barcelona would sell Messi and Real would sell Ronaldo - you just need to offer them a lot.

So, "not for sale" makes no sense. But $90M for Bryan Cristante is also nonsense, since normal businessman would gladly part with such unproven (even talented) player for something like $15-20M.

Sporting sold Ronaldo to MU for 18M euro. He was unproven but he was the most highly rated teenager at the time. In FM much worse players get higher price tags.

[cleaner475]

There is no such thing as "not for sale for any price" in real world. Any club would sell any player for some money, especially young and unproven players. Even if Arsenal won't sell Zelalem for $20M, they would gladly sell him for $100M - and they will add Welbeck for free just to get your 100.

Barcelona would sell Messi and Real would sell Ronaldo - you just need to offer them a lot.

So, "not for sale" makes no sense. But $90M for Bryan Cristante is also nonsense, since normal businessman would gladly part with such unproven (even talented) player for something like $15-20M.

Sporting sold Ronaldo to MU for 18M euro. He was unproven but he was the most highly rated teenager at the time. In FM much worse players get higher price tags.

But that is the system that we have in place now. Arsenal wouldn't sell Zelalem unless you bid silly money, that is why you have to make a bid of around £90M for them to accept.

[HUNT3R]

There is no such thing as "not for sale for any price" in real world. Any club would sell any player for some money, especially young and unproven players. Even if Arsenal won't sell Zelalem for $20M, they would gladly sell him for $100M - and they will add Welbeck for free just to get your 100.

Barcelona would sell Messi and Real would sell Ronaldo - you just need to offer them a lot.

So, "not for sale" makes no sense. But $90M for Bryan Cristante is also nonsense, since normal businessman would gladly part with such unproven (even talented) player for something like $15-20M.

Sporting sold Ronaldo to MU for 18M euro. He was unproven but he was the most highly rated teenager at the time. In FM much worse players get higher price tags.

I've bought similar wonderkids for 4m.

Barca was offered silly money for Messi. Guess where Messi plays now?

[Arkon]

The thing is that the guy in question was sold for €3 million in the real world - nothing like the €72 million asked

[HUNT3R]

The thing is that the guy in question was sold for €3 million in the real world - nothing like the €72 million asked

How much effort did you put into getting him? Like I said, I've been able to buy Ronaldo quality youngsters for 4m and consistently under 10m.

[Arkon]

How much effort did you put into getting him? Like I said, I've been able to buy Ronaldo quality youngsters for 4m and consistently under 10m.

As I said earlier I was the not one trying to buy the player, I was stating what was reported in the previous thread.

How many Ronaldo quality players are knocking around then, I have found none of his class for anything like the prices you quote and I've spent many many hours searching.

[Cougar2010]

The thing is that the guy in question was sold for €3 million in the real world - nothing like the €72 million asked

Two separate things.

In the real world you don't know the starting points for the negotiation or how the discussions went, all you know is the final price to some degree (No mention of further clauses).

In FM you have an initial reply nothing more, further work, offers & negotiation may get you a final price.

and thats before you consider that once you press continue that the player in FM is not the same player as real life, similar yes but every time you continue the gameworld changes.

[Cougar2010]

The thing is that the guy in question was sold for €3 million in the real world - nothing like the €72 million asked

Two separate things.

In the real world you don't know the starting points for the negotiation or how the discussions went, all you know is the final price to some degree (No mention of further clauses).

In FM you have an initial reply nothing more, further work, offers & negotiation may get you a final price.

and thats before you consider that once you press continue that the player in FM is not the same player as real life, similar yes but every time you continue the gameworld changes.

[cleaner475]

The thing is that the guy in question was sold for €3 million in the real world - nothing like the €72 million asked

The game is fictional after you start it. It can't take into account future events.

You can have youngsters moving on FM for £2M that could cost a real life club £15M, it works both ways.

[Methos]

How much effort did you put into getting him? Like I said, I've been able to buy Ronaldo quality youngsters for 4m and consistently under 10m.

Define effort and would he be able to get him for 3m if he went through that effort?

[HUNT3R]

Define effort and would he be able to get him for 3m if he went through that effort?

The same effort brought up every single time this type of thread surfaces. You know the drill by now. Unsettle the player first!

You might not get him for 3m, but then again, I don't think the financial situation in-game and where Benfica are IRL is the same. You will get him cheaper though.

[Methos]

The same effort brought up every single time this type of thread surfaces. You know the drill by now. Unsettle the player first!

You might not get him for 3m, but then again, I don't think the financial situation in-game and where Benfica are IRL is the same. You will get him cheaper though.

I dont know the details about unsettling the player but I will google them. However I am curious at what fee I should expect to pay if I put the effort it. A number

[HUNT3R]

I dont know the details about unsettling the player but I will google them. However I am curious at what fee I should expect to pay if I put the effort it. A number

No number

Every player is different and at a different club.

If you're the bigger club, declare an interest. Make cheeky bids, knowing they're reasonable but get rejected. The player will kick up a fuss (though not always) and you'll be able to sign him for cheaper if you follow up. Getting quoted 72m for a youngster just means they don't want to sell.

[carmeloanthony015]

I was the guy who started the referred thread.

I just "negotiated" to 30M ("directly": no clauses, no monthly installments, etc...). They're still, "Nah, we want 40M ("directly")"

Ok...

[HUNT3R]

I was the guy who started the referred thread.

I just "negotiated" to 30M ("directly": no clauses, no monthly installments, etc...). They're still, "Nah, we want 40M ("directly")"

Ok...

Exactly. So the price came down from 72m to 40m (so almost half!), just by negotiating.

The 72m would have been a very high figure, hoping you'd take the hint and move along. When you negotiated, they realise you're serious, so if you want to give them silly money (40m), they'll sell.

If you unsettle the player, Im sure you can get him for at least half (so less than 20m) of that still.

[Skarasne]

From past experience with FM the transfer coding is a joke. Ive seen key player sit on the bench for a hole season with 2 year left of the contract where the player is valued 20-30mill pound, tried to buy them because they are unhappy at not playing regular first team football, then ill start bidding and the club demands above player value. Usually twice what he is worth.

I would like to see realistic actions from AI regarding this stuff and its quit simple to code - so why SI staff didnt code this into the game years ago i do not undersand. Im not going to buy FM 15, because ive banned this game. For now FMH 15 in my eyes are a better game (and it says all) then FM. Does not even matter if a player has 1-2 year left of the contract, he isnt playing regular first team or unhappy with manager - the AI sells and demands 40-50mill pound for him. Which in my eyes is just nonsense. FM still got allot of potential improvement, and im still waiting for SI to actually do something about the main issues. And yet another year i read they have not done the mayor changes.... shame. I miss CM 01/02 days..

[carmeloanthony015]

Exactly. So the price came down from 72m to 40m (so almost half!), just by negotiating.

Half of too much is still too much.

[HUNT3R]

Half of too much is still too much.

So either read the rest of my post or find another target.

[Guest]

From past experience with FM the transfer coding is a joke. Ive seen key player sit on the bench for a hole season with 2 year left of the contract where the player is valued 20-30mill pound, tried to buy them because they are unhappy at not playing regular first team football, then ill start bidding and the club demands above player value. Usually twice what he is worth.

I would like to see realistic actions from AI regarding this stuff and its quit simple to code - so why SI staff didnt code this into the game years ago i do not undersand. Im not going to buy FM 15, because ive banned this game. For now FMH 15 in my eyes are a better game (and it says all) then FM. Does not even matter if a player has 1-2 year left of the contract, he isnt playing regular first team or unhappy with manager - the AI sells and demands 40-50mill pound for him. Which in my eyes is just nonsense. FM still got allot of potential improvement, and im still waiting for SI to actually do something about the main issues. And yet another year i read they have not done the mayor changes.... shame. I miss CM 01/02 days..

If it's that simple to code then I suggest you either make your own football manager type game or apply for a head of development job at SI.

[forameuss]

I would like to see realistic actions from AI regarding this stuff and its quit simple to code - so why SI staff didnt code this into the game years ago i do not undersand.

How to lose all credibility in one sentence. Efficient.

[Arkon]

[quote name=Originally Posted by Skarasne

I would like to see realistic actions from AI regarding this stuff and its quit simple to code - so why SI staff didnt code this into the game years ago i do not undersand.[/quote]

How to lose all credibility in one sentence. Efficient.

And how not to to be constructive in one sentence.

[louissiscool]

Sorry to burst anyone's bubble here but £72 million is more than anyone would pay for an unproven player, considering the world record fee is 83 million i believe and that was bale not some unproven lad with 7 games under his belt and surely if in real life he goes for 3 million that also proves that club in question should never of asked for 72 million.

There are always ways around getting players you want for cheaper and not eating up into your transfer budget though for instance put alot of the fee maybe more then you would pay over 48 months and say if they are a defender this is always a nice trick say you will pay them mega bucks if he scored 50 league goals chances he never will and you get away with that part scot free, and if he is a youngster its always worth adding the year long loan back clause to especially if he wouldn't normally break straight into your team.

[cleaner475]

Sorry to burst anyone's bubble here but £72 million is more than anyone would pay for an unproven player, considering the world record fee is 83 million i believe and that was bale not some unproven lad with 7 games under his belt and surely if in real life he goes for 3 million that also proves that club in question should never of asked for 72 million.

While you may have read all the posts in this thread, I don't think you've understood any of them.

The club isn't asking for £72M, it's informing you that they don't want to sell the player unless you pay crazy money. When Real Madrid came in for one of my players (a £20M bid for Serge Gnabry) I said no, not unless your going to pay me £60M, Real Madrid went away and came back with £36M. I negotiated further and eventually we got to around the £40M mark, a good deal for all parties. That's how transfer negotiations work, a team quotes you an initial price and you negotiate from there, if Real Madrid had unsettled my player (by talking about him in the press and making their interest known) he might have kicked up a fuss and told me he wanted a move, which would have weakened my negotiating position and I likely wouldn't have got £40M for him.

I'll quote what I said earlier in the thread;

This type of thread appears fairly regularly because people don't seem to understand how transfers work.

Arsenal have a really highly rated youngster called Zelalem, now IRL if Manchester United came in and offered £20M they'd be rebuffed straight away because Arsenal know he could become a world class player one day so why would they sell him now for a relatively low amount compared to what his potential value could be? The point is though that Manchester United would never ever bid for Zelalem because they know Arsenal would never sell. In Football Manager you can bid on whoever you want though, unrealistic or not, and for this reason clubs will ask for a large amount of money on youngsters because IRL they'd be unrealistic transfers.

You can have youngsters moving on FM for £2M that could cost a real life club £15M, it works both ways.

Also, if every club just accepted £2M for their latest wonderkids then the human clubs could just hoover up the talent, and the worlds other big clubs could get the leftovers leaving no club able to keep their talented youngsters into their early twenties, that wouldn't be very realistic would it?

[Bittah Dreamer]

So they replaced it with a more unrealistic one

It's not that unrealistic though. How many times have we heard a manager say he's not for sale unless we get a ridiculous price.

This is their way of saying it.

I think personally the ridiculous price threshold is set too high - but it seems to have been lowered from FM14.

On thing to note about Bryan Cristante is that he just signed for benfica - so the ridiculous price Treshold is going to be even higher than usual. Nobody wants to lose a player they just signed. I imagine the price will go down somewhat by Xmas.

[Bittah Dreamer]

From past experience with FM the transfer coding is a joke. Ive seen key player sit on the bench for a hole season with 2 year left of the contract where the player is valued 20-30mill pound, tried to buy them because they are unhappy at not playing regular first team football, then ill start bidding and the club demands above player value. Usually twice what he is worth.

I would like to see realistic actions from AI regarding this stuff and its quit simple to code - so why SI staff didnt code this into the game years ago i do not undersand. Im not going to buy FM 15, because ive banned this game. For now FMH 15 in my eyes are a better game (and it says all) then FM. Does not even matter if a player has 1-2 year left of the contract, he isnt playing regular first team or unhappy with manager - the AI sells and demands 40-50mill pound for him. Which in my eyes is just nonsense. FM still got allot of potential improvement, and im still waiting for SI to actually do something about the main issues. And yet another year i read they have not done the mayor changes.... shame. I miss CM 01/02 days..

Is it really that unrealistic?

Just look at Arsenal and Joel Campbell. While I don't know how long is left on his contract, he is a player who had a number of bids made for him over the summer and which were all refused, and yet he is clearly not a player Arsene Wenger has much faith on or who was ever likely to see significant game time.

Yet arsenal weren't interested in selling him at market value. I doubt they would have refused an "unrealistic offer" though.

[Sunstrikuuu]

Just to correct the Joel Campbell thing, the only reason he didn't move was because he was being used in a part-exchange for William Carvalho. So there was a very specific deal in place for him, which unfortunately for every party fell apart on the last day of the window.

[cleaner475]

Just to correct the Joel Campbell thing, the only reason he didn't move was because he was being used in a part-exchange for William Carvalho. So there was a very specific deal in place for him, which unfortunately for every party fell apart on the last day of the window.

That's a rumour and not one, despite me being a big Arsenal fan, I can honestly say I've heard before.

While it may be true there is no solid evidence to say that that was the case.

[Sunstrikuuu]

Huh. It was reported by the Telegraph at least, and I remember hearing about an offer from Benfica that was turned down because of the negotiations with Sporting.

[cleaner475]

Huh. It was reported by the Telegraph at least, and I remember hearing about an offer from Benfica that was turned down because of the negotiations with Sporting.

Don't want to get too off-topic, but I've searched for it and can't find an article on it anywhere. Regardless some fairly trustworthy people have said we we're never in for Carvalho and I'm inclined to believe them