Replicating Dortmund's 'gegenpressing'

[LATB]

Wouldn't the sweeper keeper be the obvious choice here?

[StevoWanderer]

I've been using this tactic (although I've changed some of the player roles) in my Palermo save with great success. Won the Serie B easily and finished fourth first season back in Serie A. Second season is even more promising as I'm in first place with no losses after six games. Don't know if it has anything to do with my success but I've kept the training focus on fitness the whole time.

What have you changed your player roles to? Are you still using a much higher line?

[allyc31]

So, i've been reading this thread as well as various reports on how BvB (at their best) play and i've came up with his...

Scoring chances

Interceptions

My Average pos

Opp average pos

It's playing pretty well (though i do play against a poor standard of opposition, when i do go up against someone stronger it holds it's own).

While i do worry about getting done down the flank this doesn't seem to happen often. However, this again could be down to the quality of the opposition.

Player Instructions are

Wb's - Stay Wider

CMD - Ease of Tackles (kept giving away silly free kicks), Mark Tighter

CMS - Ease of Tackles (kept giving away silly free kicks), Mark Tighter, Hold Position (in an attempt to intercept plays coming straight down the middle)

Def Wing - Sit Narrower

Adv Playmaker - Close Down More, Roam

Shadow Striker - Move into Channels

Deep Lying Forward - Move Into Channels.

And that's it.

Like i said, imo this is a good example of BvB at their best however i do still have some goals.

1. Close down more.

I think this is down to players but even though they have hassle, they still don't close down as much as i would like.

2. Get my two CM's making more interceptions so my Adv Player gets the ball quicker.

Feel free to give tips if you can see any obvious flaws

Thanks

Ally

[london boy]

After getting sacked at Schalke in my save, I was browsing he forum looking for inspiration and came across this thread. In season 3, my first full season with Stuttgart, I won the German double with a tactic based on the opening post.

[robterrace]

Made a couple of alterations to something I've made regarding this, and it seems to have worked..

This is in my current Scotland save.

[colinho]

This is a great thread and has given me the platform to experiment implementing the Gegenpressing system with Borussia Dortmund in the game. I've used your tactics and set-up but tweaked it a little. I really struggled to get the best out of Lewandowski, I have updated the transfers, so Lewandowski is set to join Bayern Munich, at first I thought this was the problem but I think I've managed to crack it. I've set Lewandowski up now as "Support False-9", he seems to be ending his goal drought.

[allyc31]

Okay,

After a bit more work and after reading the following articles;

http://www.bavarianfootballworks.com/2013/11/22/5132516/matchday-13-bayern-munich-borussia-dortmund-scouting-report-statistics-tactics

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1781622-inside-the-tactical-mind-of-borussia-dortmunds-juergen-klopp

http://footballspeak.com/post/2013/05/16/The-German-Football.aspx

http://www.squawka.com/news/2013/10/24/talking-tactics-how-dortmund-pressed-arsenal-into-submission/2013102428780 Thanks to RTHerringbone for this one

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1594218-dortmund-breaking-down-jurgen-klopps-tactics-and-the-role-of-each-player A great article though refers to a year or two ago.

I think I'm nearly finished recreating my interpretation of what Klopps Dortmund team do when they're at their best.

It's taken a long time, some of which has been very frustrating but most of which has been a lot of fun. I haven't included heat maps because, to be honest, they're what you would expect from looking at the formation and team instructions.

Feel free to comment or give any advice if you think I've missed something obvious.

Note, if there isn't a screenshot then i've made no changes to the role (except GK who has distribute to defenders and RB who has Cut's inside).

Formation and Team instructions

- Thought about playing with DM's as opposed to CM's but performances always looked disjointed.

- Have flirted with Sweeper Keeper due to the high line but was never happy with the performance (too many mistakes).

Center Midfield Defense

- I know Bender is a lot more aggressive in his closing down however i feel this is the way to go in order to protect the defensive line.

- Shorter passing to encourage giving it to Deep Lying Playmaker

Deep Lying Playmaker

- More direct passes to get the ball forward quickly after winning it back.

- Close down less for the same reasons as the CMD

Defensive Winger

- Shorter passing to encourage giving it to Advance Playmaker

Advance Playmaker

- More direct passes to get the ball forward quickly after winning it back.

- Close down more to hound oppositions backline.

Inside Forward

- Maybe the only position i'm not happy with. Doesn't seem to be getting in the right positions and/or attacking the space.

- Might add Get Further Forward to see if this will help his movement.

- Shorter passing to encourage giving it to Advance Playmaker

Striker

- Shorter passing to encourage giving it to Advance Playmaker

So, that's it.

Like i said, one position i'm maybe not just 100% happy with is Inside Forward.

In terms of training, followed Cleons create thread on that subject.

Also, taught my entire front line one two's.

Anybody have any thoughts?

Cheers

Ally

[Boden]

How's your pressing @allyc31? Do you feel like the players press as much as they're supposed to? I'm playing with bayern and trying to emulate in some ways pep's style of play, and was also considering removing hassle opponents and add it as a PI instead.

[allyc31]

Boden,

It's pretty good. I think playing narrow helps with that.

I had always included hassle opponents but hated how it dragged my shape apart.

So, as is in the screenshots, I give individual instructions for pressing (basically to my front four) which gave me, I think anyway, the best of both worlds.

[Flohrinho]

Hi Luken interesting read here but I feel the need to correct your explanation about "Gegenpressing" or counter-pressing if we translate it literally. In general there are 4 phases in football, possession, defending, possession win and possession loss. The word Gegenpressing basically describes a possibility on how to react to possession loss. After losing the ball your team has basically two options, fall back as fast as possible and prevent the counter attack or instantly put pressure on your opponent and try to win the ball back as fast as possible which is called Gegenpressing.

Of course you are doing a wholesale interpretation of Dortmund's playing style and a very good one at that but I just wanted to clear up that your description of Gegenpressing is a bit too far because it's only part of what Dortmund does and not the whole concept of how they play.

[allyc31]

Inside Forward still wasn't attacking the space so i decided to cut my losses, change him to a Advanced Playmaker Support (instructions remained pretty much the same).

Also made the left fullback a Wingback Attack as a result of this change to encourage the overlap.

Much happier with the position now. Player seems to be actually getting involved in the game.

Might go back and think about the Inside Forward at the end of the season as that's what i think Reus would play.

Thoughts?

[Techstep]

I've been trying for a season to replicate this. But as with other FM's, i'm not a big fan of the Hassle opponents as it doesn't feel very well implemented into the Match engine for me. It's been this way for a while, especially with the back line and their decision making on pressing.

How are you finding the pressing against better teams? As i seem to end up chasing shadows.

[allyc31]

For me, i don't select Hassle Opponents as i think it destroys the teams shape.

What i do instead is give separate closing down instructions tot he front 4 in the player instructions.

[allyc31]

Have now added Retain Possession Team Instruction in an effort to keep a bit more possession.

[arthurfigueiraa]

Does someone is using this tatic with the new patch?

[burjennio]

This is a fascinating thread that I think deserves a BUMP in regards to how this ultra-aggressive gegenpressing style is being adapted in FM14.3. Does anyone have any feedback on whether this style is still effective in the latest patch? I have to admit to having a huge man-crush on Jurgen Klopp and the innovation he has brought to the game, and would love to eventually have my current Spurs outfit playing in the Klopp image.

[allyc31]

I've found that the most important factor in getting the team to play in this way is the Aggression attribute. If players don't have a high enough aggression, they're just not going to press as hard and as often.

If you have that, it's just a matter of getting your individual instructions down.

[burjennio]

I was thinking that myself, aggression, teamwork and anticipation I think have to be the key attributes to get this style working. I would wholly disagree with the OP in regards to Dortmund using a rigid tactic though, my interpretation as I've watched them is that of a very fluid side, with every player contributing to attacking and defending phases. The only real "specialist" so to speak would be Lewandowski who is about as "complete" a striker as you get, he runs behind, drops off, battles in the air, plays teammates in etc. Ilkay Gundogan when fit is definitely the metronome of the side, and in his absence this year Klopp's team have definitely not looked as assured as in previous years, but I wouldn't necessarily consider him to be a DLP or Regista as he also makes great forward runs that drag opposition players out of position. FWIW I thought that up until about the 60min mark in last years Champions League final he was the best player on the pitch.

[Draigh]

I was thinking that myself, aggression, teamwork and anticipation I think have to be the key attributes to get this style working.

How about work rate? Seems pretty essential to me too.

[burjennio]

I actually typed "teamwork" instead of "workrate" by mistake but both are definitely important to this style. I cannot really apply it at the moment in my Tottenham save as all my attacking players lack the appropriate aggression and workrate, and Roberto Saldado is about one performance away from getting transfer listed, as I clearly have the real life version playing for me atm :/

Come the end of the season I will be looking to bring in a few players high in this stats. Does anyone know how to train a player to increase his workrate and aggression? Is it even possible?

[max787]

Aggression can't be improved (it can be decreased via fines though). Work rate is part of physical training iirc, so it may go up in time.

[allyc31]

Afaik, aggression can't be improved though it can improve with age. I suspect to accomplish this, the player has to have high closing down.

The above really bugs me. I should be able to train aggression as it's such an important attribute for achieving modern systems.

[CowShedBarmyArmy]

Boden,

It's pretty good. I think playing narrow helps with that.

I had always included hassle opponents but hated how it dragged my shape apart.

So, as is in the screenshots, I give individual instructions for pressing (basically to my front four) which gave me, I think anyway, the best of both worlds.

You mentioned you "give individual instructions for pressing (basically to my front four)" yet in the screenshots you only give "close down more" to the AMC. Did you give this to the rest or is this done via the role?

Loving the thread by the way, I love Dortmund's style.

[ashlfcowen]

Luken, great thread. I've been in charge of Liverpool now for 15 seasons. Not once in those 15 years did I shy away from the 4-3-3 tactic. Kept the same principles throughout, high pressing, high tempo, shorter passing with work in to box selected. I'd often change player roles because I had a salary cap so I was constantly swapping and changing players. 14 league titles & 68 competition wins later I decide for a different philosophy because I'm bored. Guardiolas Barca? Nahhh, Mourinhos Madrid? Nahhh. Klopps Dortmund? Hmm. I do some revision, reading as many articles as I can and then come across this thread.

I didn't particularly agree with everything you posted in the first post, but a few members touched up a few details and your updated post, IMO was spot on. So I decided you'd done all the hard work for me, and went ahead with selecting your tactic to see how it fared. I played 13 friendlies in pre-season to get match fitness & fluidity up. It'd be a dangerous game going in to the season using this tactic with no-one match fit. Likewise, I felt it was imperative for the tactic to be fluid amongst the squad. I've swapped instructions on the wing though, as you can see;

I've just approached January 1st.

Defending

Throughout my whole managerial career I've never conceded so many goals at this point in the season. But that's to be expected, as you've already touched up on. I now go in to every game believing that if I don't score first, then I could potentially lose the game. I try and keep my back four as consistent as possible;

Crowe (19) ----- Viqueira (16) ---- Shongwe (15) ---- Addo (17)

Pace in brackets - so that's not an issue I believe, that's a pretty fast defensive line. I've considered leaving both defenders on the (D) duty, but I'm worried they'll be too static and the space between my defence and midfield would be far too easy to exploit considering MOST tactics I play against deploy an AMC.

Attacking

Simple. I outscore the opposition. Even in the games I have lost, notably the 3-0 defeat to Celtic, I completely destroyed them and played the majority of game in their half. My play is beautiful to watch at times. My players work hard in the opposition box when they don't have the ball, and when they do they certainly know what to do with it. My main goal outlets come from my CF(A) and T(A). My main assists come from my W(S) and my (IF)S, the latter being because he takes corners and I've scored a few from there. Take this away from him and he doesn't pose much of a threat - something I do wish to work on. I noticed you have the same problem, have you looked in to this further and come up with a solution?

Conclusion

I think the general idea is there, but I really need to believe I can feel more confident when the ball is beyond my midfield. I feel that whenever the MC's are beaten, the opposition WILL score, but I'm scared to make wholesale changes in case I disrupt the whole tactic and go against the Klopp philosophy.

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

What impact did people see on the foul count by playing with such an aggressive pressing style?

[underkiller]

Luken33: Have you tried this style\tactic with tottenham on fm 2015`? I cant find hassle opponents instruction on fm 15

[spaced33]

Luken33: Have you tried this style\tactic with tottenham on fm 2015`? I cant find hassle opponents instruction on fm 15

It is now described as "close down more" and "close down much more"

[underkiller]

Thank you Spaced33 Would you have used "Close down more" or "Close Down Much more"?

[nicko]

Is this an effective tactic for 15? thank you in advance

[underkiller]

I create many chances, and it is very attacking. But my striker and right winger does not perform well

[spaced33]

Thank you Spaced33 Would you have used "Close down more" or "Close Down Much more"?

I generally don't use high pressing styles much as I prefer letting the opposition come on to me and then using a high tempo to catch them on the break so I would probably only use close down more. I've been tempted to try the concept of gegenpressing and would like to try this with push much higher up and close down much more but I'm just worried about the balls over the top (my DC's aren't the fastest around - playing Man Utd with Javi Martinez and Phil Jones)

I usually play a 4-1-3-2 narrow and use my mc's and forwards to close down much more with excellent results (using player instructions as opposed to team instructions)

[underkiller]

Thanks for reply, Is it possible for you to share your tactic Spaced33?

[spaced33]

At the moment I'm playing 4-1-3-2

Attacking Highly Structured

SwKS Distribute to FB

WBS

CBD

CBD

WBA

HB

CMA Close Down More

DPS Close Down More

CMA Close Down More

F9 Close Down More

AF Close Down More

Team Instructions

Whipped Crosses

Push Higher Up

Stay on Feet

Prevent GK Short Distr

Its given some good results so far but its still early days

I want to implement a more aggressive approach as discussed as regards pressing and the D-line. I thought I was dropping deeper but I think I changed it cos my strikers were becoming isolated

[underkiller]

thanks Why do you not use Complete forward?

[spaced33]

I've actually just been experimenting with that but I'm still seeing a lot of separation and the CMA's don't seem to be doing enough on attack - tried giving them moves into channels to get them further forward but wasn't particularly happy with the results. Now training up 4-2-3-1 DM

My concern is the gap between the DM and the AM strata's. Will look to the pushing high up and pressing to achieve this

[underkiller]

I wanted to post a expansion on what I had previously layed out in post #42. Firstly I am clearly a very slow player, I take a fair amount of time to get through games as I like to watch and understand as much as I can throughout matched and keep tabs on training, player development, scouts and all elements really. Still I have played through most of the first season and continued to refine the tactic to the point that I am now happy to share it once more with further information.

1.0. Results

Fantastic league position for Spurs obviously, we have the most goals scored, but we are not really challenging for the fewest conceded. This puts a big smile on my face as I want the team to go big or go home in every single match and losts of goals to be flying in each end! As long as we always end up with more.

The results speak for themselves in only 8 out of 26 premier league games have we scored less than 2 goals. Overall I am continuing to see the below key performance indicators coming up

• More shots than opposition
  
• Most of the game being placed in opponents half
  
• High tackles completed
  
• Low passes completed for opposition teams
  

2.0. Team Setup

2.1. Mentality and Philosophy

I am using only one mentality and one philosophy now, I was previously using attacking & counter so I could manager different opponents but I don't feel this was defining the way I wanted to play enough. Now we play all matched with attacking mentality and very rigid philosophy and I look to change the game through instructions or formation changes (more on that below). I have gone over it already but the justification for this is:

Mentality - Attacking: High d-line & high tempo

Philosophy - Very rigid: Gives me more control over what my players are doing and define roles more clearly

2.2. Team instructions

I am still only using 4 team instructions as standard and look to use different shouts as the game goes on

• Play out of defence
  
• Hassle opponents
  
• Stay on feet
  
• Much higher defensive line
  

The much higher defensive line and hassle opponents are the really key instructions. The defensive line makes the team more compact which limits space when we loose our shape due to closing down. More on this later also...

2.3. Formations

I am currently using 2 formations. We always look to start games with our standard attacking 4-2-3-1 and might need to change from there the 4-2-3-1 is Dortmund's standard formation and needs no further explaination

When the 4-2-3-1 is not working, we go to plan B a 4-3-3/4-5-1 this formation is different in a number of key ways and helps to offset the major weaknesses that the opposition could be exposing in the 4-2-3-1. Mainly with extra protection for the defence and more natural possession.

3.0. Player setup

The player setup is obviously key and I wanted to run down what I am trying to achieve

3.1. The central defence

Desired behaviour: The desired behaviour in defence is to have a classic stopped and cover instructions (Hummels the stopper, Subotic the cover) which will always work well against single striker teams, which is the majority these days. Ideally I want both defenders to be competent on the ball however this is not always possible. Dortmund play by having Hummels act as something of a ball playing defender while Subotic is far more limited. My preferred pairing in defence is Kaboul (stopper) and Vertonghen (cover) and due to their natural talents I have adapted my instructions so that Kaboul is not playing as a ball playing defender.

Instructions:

Position: Center defender (left) | Role: Central defender | Duty: Cover | Instructions: None

Position: Centre defnder (right) | Role: Central defender | Duty: Stopper | Instructions: None

Attribute considerations: The very high d-line requires fast defenders. I think this is the single most important attribute consideration in the entire team. The high d-line is a weakness vs fast strikers paired with a good playmaker and it can only really be overcome if you are willing to drop the d-line, which I am not. As a result I will mitigate this weakness with fast defenders as new signings.

3.2. The central midfield duo

Desired behaviour: Here we want one player to act as a ball winner, looking to break up attacks and recycle possession through tackles and interception. The other central midfielder acts as a creative influence from deep. For Dortmund this is Sven Bender who plays as a clear ball winning midfielder and does not venture forward like his counterpart Ilkay Gundogan who is a real classic deep lying playmaker to my eyes. Gundogan will venture forward, but must always be positionally aware, and looks to spread play to the flanks or down the middle where the real creativity happens. For my Tottenham team this takes the form of Sandro as a BWM-Defend, he stays deeper but is proactive at getting back the ball and looks to close down. Sandro plays alongside Mousa Dembele who plays as a DLP-S, Mousa does not have the creativity of Gundogan but has made up for this in my team with his excellent dribbling and shooting! Hes a more energetic version with less vision.

Instructions:

Position: Central midfield (left) | Role: Ball winning midfielder | Duty: Defend | Instructions: None

Position: Central midfield (right) | Role: Deep lying playmaker | Duty: Support | Instruction: None

Attribute considerations: Ball winning midfielders are not good at holding a teams shape, they close down and therefore space can open up behind them. For this reason any future signings to play here need to be athletic, with great speed and stamina. I probably also want more creativity coming from the deep lying playmaker position.

3.3. Left wing

Desired behaviour: My left wing actually mimics Dortmund's right wing of last season, as due to the players available the wings are flipped, which was Piszczek (full back) and Kuba (winger). Essentially what we want here is a full play back flying forward and putting in crosses along with a more reserved and traditional winger. Kuba would look to balance out the all out attack of Reus on the left and allow Piszczek to get ahead of him. Essentially Dortmund's right wing (my left) provides width. For me this has mean't playing Luke Shaw and Aaron Lennon who are essentially stretching play and firing in crosses.

Instructions:

Position: Left full back | Role: Complete wing back | Duty: Attack | Instructions: None

Position: Left wing | Role: Winger | Duty: Support | Instructions: None

Attribute considerations: Speed and crossing are essential for both players and the more defensive attributes you can squeeze in the better

3.4. Right wing

Desired behaviour: Remembering that my wings are flipped means that this wing is replicating Dortmunds left wing. Dortmund play Schmeltzer as a solid and also fairly attacking full back along with team star Reus who plays as a insider forward/wider striker. Reus is in essence the second major goal threat to back up the striker. For me this is Walker and Lamela and I am still trying to get this to work. In theory I wanted Lamela to play IF-a, cutting in and trying to score all the time with Walker overlapping and providing more width. In reality this resulted in Lamela playing terribly, I am not sure if it's because he needs more time to adjust and settle or if the system is not working for him but I have since switched him to IF-s and the results have been much better. This wing is a work in progress!

Instructions:

Position: Right full back | Role: Complete wing back | Duty: Attack | Instructions: None

Position: Right wing | Role: Inside forward | Duty: Support | Instructions: None

Attribute considerations: Really I want the insider forward on the team to be one of the big stars, in Lamela I have all the potential I need. I just need to work out how to make him perform. As for the full back. Stamina will be the major attribute needed as there will be space to run into in attack (while the left could be more congested due to the winger in front) and work to do in defence.

3.5. Attacking partnership

Desired behaviour: For Dortmund the attacking partnership I have in mind is Gotze and Lewandowski. I have come to conclusion that Gotze played as something of a trequartista, comfortable overloading the flanks, sitting in the hole or basically going wherever he was going to be most devastating. He was in the team to make goals happen and be the prime creator. As for Lewandowski, he is clearly a complete forward, we can all give examples of his poaching skills, ability to hold up the ball and play off the shoulder. For me this partnership is Christian Eriksen and Roberto Soldado, I am looking to replace Soldado in season two for Aleksander Mitrovic as I feel he is the perfect player for the system. Eriksen however is perfect as he is 2 footed, creative and unlike many similar players he has great off the ball movement to play as a trequartista.

Instructions:

Position: Attacking midfield | Role: Trequartista | Duty: Attack | Instructions: None

Position: Striker | Role: Complete forward | Duty: Attack | Instructions: None (going to experiment with 'Move into channels')

Attribute considerations: As stated I think the trequartista needs good off the ball movement as well as all the standard attributes you would expect from a playmaker in this position. From the striker, he needs it all. Ideally strong, fast, good at finishing, creative and high work rate.

4.0. Opposition considerations

I have developed a few handy tactics for dealing with various formations and considered how they can be used to exploit my style

vs 4-2-3-1: Vs a mirror formation the key element is the AMC, they are given room to move and play in this type of match so my focus is on making sure mine is as devastating as possible while trying to limit the amount of influence the opposition can have.

• Don't close down opposition MC's
  

Normally I like to close down opposition MC's to limit their time on the ball, this simply provides more space for the AMC in a 4-2-3-1 vs 4-2-3-1 so I make sure not to issue this instruction... ever!

• Explot the middle & Play wider
  

Play wider means your team expands out when you have the ball and this means space starts to open up in the middle, space that the my AMC can start to work in. Exploit the middle simply ensures that my team are always looking for the AMC, in theory, the player who has the most space to work in.

vs 4-4-2: The issue with 4-4-2 is that two strikers can really pull your central defence out of position with one striker coming deep and the other exploiting the space left for him. This is hard to counter. At the same time however, you have an extra man in midfield and should be able to dominate possession.

• Exploit the middle & Play wider
  

The AMC is once again operating between the lines however there should be even more space here as the opposition MC's try to stop my MC's. As a result I use these two instructions for the reasons stated above

• 3-4-1-2
  

Sometimes the dual strikers of the opposition can be impossible to handle. As a counter I am not averse to changing to 3 at the back to ensure an extra man is there. This is an extreme reaction however and I have only used it twice.

Vs 4-3-3: For me 4-3-3 is a natural possession tactic and as a result you can expect the main issue when facing this tactic to be a lack of possession on your part. Also I am always concerned that the oppositon DMC can mark my AMC out of the game

• The DMC vs AMC issue
  

In theory a trequartista will move into areas that a DMC will be reluctant to follow and I have observed this happening. However when I feel the the DMC has my AMC's number then I will normally

switch to 4-3-3 myself, 90% of the time this is not necessary however it is a potential solution as it moves the AMC deeper and put him up against an (in theory) less defensively competent player.

• Possession issues
  

In order to deal with the fact the 4-3-3 is better at holding possession than 4-2-3-1 I instruct my MC's to close down their opposite numbers. There is no AMC to exploit the space they leave behind and it limits their central creative players, who are normally placed in the MC postitions, influence. If possession is a major issue then once again switching to 4-3-3 myself has proven to be the answer.

Vs and 3 central defence formation: All the space is down the wings here. So I use it!

• Exploit the flanks, Look for overlap & Play narrower
  

Play narrower creates more space on the wings, exploit the flanks makes the team focus on getting the ball out there and look for overlap just ensure we are getting 2 vs 1 overloads. Easy!

5.0. Spotting when it's not working

Success for me with this formation means...

• Dominating territory
  
• Dominating shots
  
• High tackle %
  
• Fast transitions
  
• Low opposition pass %
  

If I am not seeing these things then we are not imposing out game enough and there are a few key weaknesses I am always aware of and monitoring

5.1. High line

The high line is the biggest feature of the tactic. The high line keeps the team compact and limits the space for the opposition and allows us to press fast.. on a good day that is. When it's not working we see strikers exploiting the vast space left behind, but this is a key part of the tactic and something I am resigned to live with. My only counter as mentioned above is to play fast defenders.

But when I do feel the high line is crippling us I try to identify where the threat is coming from. If it's a AMC then I will switch again to 4-3-3 and ask my DMC to do a hatchet job on him. If it's a winger then the corresponding full back can be switched to FB-d instructions to make sure the marking is on point.

5.2. Opposition AMC

The danger area in this tactic is the space between defence and midfield and with the midfield roles that space can be big. The high d-line compensates somewhat as it naturally limits that space but when the game is being won and lost in this area (Ozil for Arsenal!) then I will look to switch to 4-3-3 again to compensate.

5.3. Loosing shape

With the MC's roles involving a lot of closing down the team can loose all shape. This can lead to space in the AMC danger zone and other teams being able to produce fast and devastating counter attacks. This can be offset by a change information or relying of powerful athletic midfielders who can get back into position when the ball is lost or they are dribbled past quickly.

In reality 85-90% of games we impose ourselves and dominate with no need for tweaking, the 4-3-3 is my response when nothing I do is working the opposition is simply exploiting my weaknesses more than we can exploit there's. The nature of this tactic is high risk - high reward and I accept that counter attacks will happen, because before and after that single counter attack we have dominated the game. Ultimately it's all about watching the ME and judging if we are playing more dangerous than they are, and just like in real life I will get it wrong sometimes. That is kind of what makes the game great!.

6.0. General tips

If anyone wants to pick up this tactic as I have outlined here then I have a couple of key tips

• We have high possession and pass rate, I want MORE chances!
  

Increase your tempo, I do this frequently when I feel we are dominating in possession and passing, it simply makes the passage of play even fasted! lesser opposition will not be able to cope

• The opposition are also playing a high line
  

Throw on your fastest Striker and wingers and 'pass into space' this should push them back or allow a lot of chances

• We are struggling for possesion & unable to produce chances
  

Remember that the focus of the tactic is not to keep possession, so if chances are coming - GREAT! None the less to arrest this issue first try the obvious of issuing the instruction 'Pass shorter and retain possession'. If this does not help then it's time to go for plan B! (4-3-3!)

• The opposition are playing a narrow formation with full backs, 4-4-2 diamond for example
  

In FM 2013 and FM 2014 I have found that simply issuing opposition instructions to show the full backs inside (weaker foot) demolishes this formation. The congestion in the middle of the park is horrific for the opponent - Don't forget to exploit the flanks yourself however!

• Bravery
  

I would highly recommend that all managers, whatever formation or tactic add the 'Bravery' attribute to their opposition team view and instruct your players to tackle - hard on anyone who has a low bravery. It can result in some really key players simply disappearing in games.

7.0. Examples

Below are some examples of the tactic's results in match for some of the key games

This is something of an enormous wall of text but I hope some people find it interesting, I will continue to format this post later this evening so hopefully it will be easier on the eye.

Used this on the beta, and won almost every game, on the full-game i have 15 games, 2 wins, 3 draws, 10 loss. LOL wtf

[colinho]

I used this tactic but slightly tweaked on FM14. The way I tweaked it was with "Work the ball into the box" and the AP as a TQ and the DLF as a F9 - but on FM15, this tactic is rubbish with Dortmund and any other big side. However, I've had great success with Anji in the Russian Second Division. *shrugs*

[jackane24]

Gave this tactic a good go with Dortmund on FM14. Played Lewandowski as DF-S with move into channels & shoot more. Had Mkhitaryan behind him as AM-A with no instructions. Blaszczikowsky as DW-D with get further forward. Reus as IF-S. Worked a treat, goals galore.

Attacking, very rigid. Don't remember the TIs. Struggled somewhat away from home though. Needed more tweaking. Will try again when I get the full version of FM15.

[Jean0987654321]

I dunno if this thread needed to be dragged back to life but I have found a way of gegenpressing in FM15. I tested out with my manU team.

SK (D) - Roll It Out, Distribute to FBs, Distribute Quickly, Shorter Passing, Less Risky Passes

CWB (A) x2 - Run Wide With Ball, Shoot Less Often, Pass It Shorter, Tackle Harder

CB (s) - Pass It Shorter, Tackle Harder, Close Down Much Less

CB © - Pass It Shorter, Tackle Harder, Close Down Much Less

BWM (d) - More Direct, Shoot Less Often, Tackle Harder

RPM (s) (or CM (a)) - Pass It Shorter, Shoot Less Often, Tackle Harder

W (s) (I could've used DW but those guys had to remove it ) - Pass It Shorter, Roam From Position, Shoot Less Often, Tackle Harder

T (a) (Enganches never seem to run the channels unless the player I use has a PPM ) - Pass It Shorter, Shoot Less Often, Tackle Harder

R (a) - Pass It Shorter, Shoot Less Often, Tackle Harder

CF (a) - Pass It Shorter, Roam From Position, Move Into Channels, Shoot Less Often, Tackle Harder

Attacking/Very Rigid (could've gone with Balanced but I found Very Rigid to work better)

TIs:

Go Route One

Pass Into Space

Whipped Crosses

Play Narrower

Much Higher Defensive Line

Roam From Position (Lets get these guys moving around so they can do the pressing)

Close Down Much More

Get Stuck In

Prevent Short GK Distribution

Much Higher Tempo

I killed Middlesborough with this tactic. 6-1!! :o

[Al Bundy]

Cool. Jean can you upload few highlights on youtube so we could see how pressing looks like? How did you do against strongers sides?