Planning Ahead - The Deep Lying Playmaker

[lam]

Good training regimes can drop useless attributes and increase useful ones at their expense.

The point by Llama a up from here is VERY INTERESTING and should be noted.

I was chatting a little with Cleon about this yesterday. Recently I've been trying to find ways of getting good players in to cover for my first team whilst my youth chaps are being trained and I was trying not to pay for CA or PA that I won't be using so I CAPPED the maximum skills in areas that I was simply not interested in.

If you can get players that do NOT have skills in areas that they will not be using then you can get some incredible players for relatively low CA/AP and this usually means less money!

Some examples I used:

DC - I capped crossing, corners, penalties, freekicks and finishing at 6.

DM - Capped crossing, corners, freekicks and finishing at 10

AMC - capped tackling, marking, positioning at 10

You can see that I used slightly different levels as some skills can be relatively common and I didnt want to miss out on players because they were good at something, I just didnt want them great at something I wouldn't use.

LAM

[llama3]

The point by Llama a up from here is VERY INTERESTING and should be noted.

I was chatting a little with Cleon about this yesterday. Recently I've been trying to find ways of getting good players in to cover for my first team whilst my youth chaps are being trained and I was trying not to pay for CA or PA that I won't be using so I CAPPED the maximum skills in areas that I was simply not interested in.

If you can get players that do NOT have skills in areas that they will not be using then you can get some incredible players for relatively low CA/AP and this usually means less money!

Some examples I used:

DC - I capped crossing, corners, penalties, freekicks and finishing at 6.

DM - Capped crossing, corners, freekicks and finishing at 10

AMC - capped tackling, marking, positioning at 10

You can see that I used slightly different levels as some skills can be relatively common and I didnt want to miss out on players because they were good at something, I just didnt want them great at something I wouldn't use.

LAM

The counterpoint here - I like Cazorla, Ramsey, Wilshere and Rosicky in my AMC position - as they are still hardworking and contribute to a team pressing game, and as such Arshavin is a significant luxury who does not play the team game well enough. So skills while maybe not essential by position can still be useful for a style of play.

[lam]

Absolutely, but I state that I was looking for cover and cheap cover at that. Normally I opt for well rounded players.

That and it is useful tactic when looking for young players as it means nothing is wasted from the start and if you want freekicks etc, then you can just train them.

[wez007]

I'm pleased you've gone back to the boxed formation though, that's your true roots with Dag & Red

It's much more flexible too because it can be a 442, 4231, 451 lop sided like you was using and so on. So much variation

Cheers boss, I went through a few seasons plodding along winning most games but no free flow football. I remember my first love and how it felt so good, so i went back to it

Took what i learnt and now almost perfected it, if you get the settings, atts and ppms all bang on then its the best free flowing football ive seen in FM, truly. I was going to post a new BOX thread to show my workings but is it worth keeping to the Going with grain thread? might be a bit outdated now though

Anyways, my DLP alternative... any better?

[Cleon]

Cheers boss, I went through a few seasons plodding along winning most games but no free flow football. I remember my first love and how it felt so good, so i went back to it

Took what i learnt and now almost perfected it, if you get the settings, atts and ppms all bang on then its the best free flowing football ive seen in FM, truly. I was going to post a new BOX thread to show my workings but is it worth keeping to the Going with grain thread? might be a bit outdated now though

Anyways, my DLP alternative... any better?

He is better

Start a new thread and just link the old one in opening post if you wish

[wez007]

Cool, in he goes.

Will do

[GaryMegsonJr]

This thread has opened my eyes to the need of PPM's to tweak exactly how you want yoyr players to play, (and thank you for that Cleon).

However, I'm also playing a DLP (but he's on a defend duty in MC) and have now started paying attention to the PPM's, thus far my coaches have got it kinda right when I blindly followed their advice. His PPM's are now:

Avoids Weaker Foot

Switch Ball to Other Flank

Tries Killer Balls Often (I just added this one on, took the lad about a week)

Gets Forward Whenever Possible.

The Gets Forward Whenever Possible one is really irrritating me as it certainly doesnt suit what I want from him and my team. I was wondering if there was anyway to remove the PPM or if it could be negated itself through player instructions?

Cheers, and once again this thread is much appreciated.

[Cleon]

This thread has opened my eyes to the need of PPM's to tweak exactly how you want yoyr players to play, (and thank you for that Cleon).

However, I'm also playing a DLP (but he's on a defend duty in MC) and have now started paying attention to the PPM's, thus far my coaches have got it kinda right when I blindly followed their advice. His PPM's are now:

Avoids Weaker Foot

Switch Ball to Other Flank

Tries Killer Balls Often (I just added this one on, took the lad about a week)

Gets Forward Whenever Possible.

The Gets Forward Whenever Possible one is really irrritating me as it certainly doesnt suit what I want from him and my team. I was wondering if there was anyway to remove the PPM or if it could be negated itself through player instructions?

Cheers, and once again this thread is much appreciated.

If you go back into where you teach a PPM, they can be unlearned the same way. They are mixed in with the ones you learn.

[GaryMegsonJr]

If you go back into where you teach a PPM, they can be unlearned the same way. They are mixed in with the ones you learn.

This is on the training report, no? The way he learned Tries Killer Balls Often was by speaking to one of my coaches who implemented it. Is that the same for unlearning it? Now the option of 'New Preferred Move' is greyed out, is this because I've just taught him one PPM and so I'm not allowed to do one for a while?

Thanks again.

[Cleon]

This is on the training report, no? The way he learned Tries Killer Balls Often was by speaking to one of my coaches who implemented it. Is that the same for unlearning it? Now the option of 'New Preferred Move' is greyed out, is this because I've just taught him one PPM and so I'm not allowed to do one for a while?

Thanks again.

You can teach another PPM straight after.

Try this, player profile > training tab > New Preffered Move > Speak to coach >find it on the list and unlearn.

You won't be able to do this if the player is tutoring or been tutored though.

[GaryMegsonJr]

You can teach another PPM straight after.

Try this, player profile > training tab > New Preffered Move > Speak to coach >find it on the list and unlearn.

You won't be able to do this if the player is tutoring or been tutored though.

I might be missing something but I followed what you said and the 'new preffered move' option remains unavailable, I'll keep continuing and it should sort itself out.

Thanks for the help though.

[Eztikz]

so I'm currently training this guy to be a DLP and I get a mail saying that he's progressing well

when I clicked on his name, I couldn't believe my eyes :O

I know that you can get an arrow pointing upwards when a low determination player is getting tutored by one with high determination, but two on these attributes?

[Cleon]

I might be missing something but I followed what you said and the 'new preffered move' option remains unavailable, I'll keep continuing and it should sort itself out.

Thanks for the help though.

He's either injured, been tutored or tutoring then.

[Cleon]

so I'm currently training this guy to be a DLP and I get a mail saying that he's progressing well

when I clicked on his name, I couldn't believe my eyes :O

I know that you can get an arrow pointing upwards when a low determination player is getting tutored by one with high determination, but two on these attributes?

What's so strange?

Looking at that it suggest it came from his last game and he must have done something really creative in a difficult situation hence why they both improved instant. This as always happened on FM when someone does something diffcult or unusual for their play style. It's called event based development

[craney]

Another great thread cleon, i am currently training this young chap to slot into my DM position in the next couple of years. I was really tempted to try and retrain Oscar to play DM due to his lack in strength and balance. Playing him as a DLP in the MC slot he still gets pushed off the ball way to easy as he doesnt get a great deal of time against high pressing teams so thought having him as a DM would give him more time but looks like its not going to be able to work shame really

Anyway here's my boy :-)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

[Karnage94]

What's so strange?

Looking at that it suggest it came from his last game and he must have done something really creative in a difficult situation hence why they both improved instant. This as always happened on FM when someone does something diffcult or unusual for their play style. It's called event based development

I need to pay more attention to what's going on. Never knew that existed.

[GaryMegsonJr]

He's either injured, been tutored or tutoring then.

I'm sure you know more about this than me, but he isn't injured and he isn't tutored/tutoring and it will not let me set a PPM. I only taught him one about a month ago and it only took him a few days, is this normal? All my other players are able to have PPM's set except this lad. I can't explain it.

[Cleon]

I'm sure you know more about this than me, but he isn't injured and he isn't tutored/tutoring and it will not let me set a PPM. I only taught him one about a month ago and it only took him a few days, is this normal? All my other players are able to have PPM's set except this lad. I can't explain it.

Learning PPM's takes months not days. It takes anywhere from 3 months to 9 months. Hover over the PPM's greyed out option and it'll tell you why he can't do it.

[lewis999]

Learning PPM's takes months not days. It takes anywhere from 3 months to 9 months. Hover over the PPM's greyed out option and it'll tell you why he can't do it.

I thought that too but in my new Arsenal save I'm not even 3 months in and Coquelin has learnt "switch ball to other flank" Seemed to take him a fortnight it was that quick.

[robterrace]

Its not a DLP, but I like this... (he's actually 4.5 star rated potential)

[GaryMegsonJr]

Learning PPM's takes months not days. It takes anywhere from 3 months to 9 months. Hover over the PPM's greyed out option and it'll tell you why he can't do it.

That's what I thought, whenever I set PPM's (usually just following my backroom advice) it always took about six months, so I was really surprised when this player learned it in a few days. I think it might only let me set another PPM in a couple of months when it should have been fully learnt, not sure why though. I'd get you some screenshots up but I've tried before and I ballsed it up., I'll try again if you like

[Cleon]

That's what I thought, whenever I set PPM's (usually just following my backroom advice) it always took about six months, so I was really surprised when this player learned it in a few days. I think it might only let me set another PPM in a couple of months when it should have been fully learnt, not sure why though. I'd get you some screenshots up but I've tried before and I ballsed it up., I'll try again if you like

I think it must be a bug, you should report it in the bugs forum. This will be the reason why you can't learn another yet

[Cleon]

Its not a DLP, but I like this... (he's actually 4.5 star rated potential)

What's your plans for him Rob?

[REALMADRID]

How is PPM's is vital ? I just noticed AI is not development on player tutoring or PPM's.

[Cleon]

How is PPM's is vital ? I just noticed AI is not development on player tutoring or PPM's.

Because I'm trying to get to play a certain way that is only possible via PPM's

[EdsFM]

Cleon, any advice on this young chap? I'm planning on giving him a few first team games this season. The difficulty is finding a tutor because he's got 17 determination as it is (currently being tutored by an ambitious regen, and then by Lucas Leiva once that's finished, both are 17 determination but they're the best I have). If he progresses as he could, he'll slot into my side for years.

[robterrace]

What's your plans for him Rob?

Well, at the moment, he's getting some first team experience (As well as missing an open net in the 94th minute of a 1-1 draw in the Europa League ), he's spent 6 months on loan the season before, and I'll ease him into the first team steadily. He's probably 4th or 5th choice at the moment (behind Walcott, Memphis Depay and a couple of regens). He's scored for fun at all other levels, just need to make sure I don't overwork him.

[Cleon]

Cleon, any advice on this young chap? I'm planning on giving him a few first team games this season. The difficulty is finding a tutor because he's got 17 determination as it is (currently being tutored by an ambitious regen, and then by Lucas Leiva once that's finished, both are 17 determination but they're the best I have). If he progresses as he could, he'll slot into my side for years.

What is his personality type?

For me he's not good enough to be a playmaker yet. But it could turn out that with the right training he's become good at it especially if you raise his flair and creativity and composure.

He lacks strength, marking, concentration, composure and fitness to be a DMC imo. So I'd rule that role out.

He's got some good attributes but there all random and don't make him good for any position as he currently is imo.

[EdsFM]

What is his personality type?

For me he's not good enough to be a playmaker yet. But it could turn out that with the right training he's become good at it especially if you raise his flair and creativity and composure.

He lacks strength, marking, concentration, composure and fitness to be a DMC imo. So I'd rule that role out.

He's got some good attributes but there all random and don't make him good for any position as he currently is imo.

He's resolute, currently.

I also wasn't sure whether he'd be better as a destroyer or a creator, hence seeking your help. I'd love for him to be the DLP though.

I'd say he's more than capable of being a key player in the Brazilian leagues, because he went on loan as a 16 year old last season to a First Division club and played 45 games for an average rating of 7.19. I know you've played in the Brazilian leagues a fair amount, so I'd be interested to see how that measures up against any youngsters you've developed there.

If I were to go for DLP, I need to raise his flair, creativity, and composure - or is there more?

[Cleon]

He's resolute, currently.

I also wasn't sure whether he'd be better as a destroyer or a creator, hence seeking your help. I'd love for him to be the DLP though.

I'd say he's more than capable of being a key player in the Brazilian leagues, because he went on loan as a 16 year old last season to a First Division club and played 45 games for an average rating of 7.19. I know you've played in the Brazilian leagues a fair amount, so I'd be interested to see how that measures up against any youngsters you've developed there.

If I were to go for DLP, I need to raise his flair, creativity, and composure - or is there more?

I'm Palmeiras on a new update where they were relegated so trying to restore them atm too

I honestly don't think he'll ever be a destroyer, he has the wrong attributes for that already imo.

If you want to train him you can either work on individual attributes or put him on an heavy schedule role. I like to focus on individual attributes as you mgith know from my Ajax development thread further down the forum. However in your case I'd be tempted to give him a role to train. But if I did go that route I'd train him as a Treq because it will work on his mentals that you need more than the other roles do. And at the same time make the imporant technicals even better.

[EdsFM]

I'm Palmeiras on a new update where they were relegated so trying to restore them atm too

I honestly don't think he'll ever be a destroyer, he has the wrong attributes for that already imo.

If you want to train him you can either work on individual attributes or put him on an heavy schedule role. I like to focus on individual attributes as you mgith know from my Ajax development thread further down the forum. However in your case I'd be tempted to give him a role to train. But if I did go that route I'd train him as a Treq because it will work on his mentals that you need more than the other roles do. And at the same time make the imporant technicals even better.

Interesting. Cheers. I'll give him a heavy training schedule on Treq. with the odd first team game in easier games.

EDIT: Not actually able to train him on treq, as he hasn't got any CAM in him. Just DLP, you reckon?

[Cleon]

Interesting. Cheers. I'll give him a heavy training schedule on Treq. with the odd first team game in easier games.

EDIT: Not actually able to train him on treq, as he hasn't got any CAM in him. Just DLP, you reckon?

Looks like the only option then yeah

[mikcheck]

Cleon have you ever tried to let your DLP roam ?

[Cleon]

Cleon have you ever tried to let your DLP roam ?

On other saves yeah but that style doesn't fit what I need him to do in the above tactic.

[MichaelBrown]

Learning PPM's takes months not days. It takes anywhere from 3 months to 9 months. Hover over the PPM's greyed out option and it'll tell you why he can't do it.

Is this a set rule, or can it be 'affected' by the player's personality traits/mental attributes?

[Cleon]

Is this a set rule, or can it be 'affected' by the player's personality traits/mental attributes?

It's more a case of randomness really hence between 3-9 months. Anything quicker and its a bug.

[robterrace]

Heres another one of my players..

At the moment, a lot of his game is bringing the central midfielders into play, he has 2 assists this season, both of which I feel play to his PPMs.

Here, Depay has laid the ball back to Velazquez, who has got the wrong side of his marking winger. The RCM has pulled out to cover Depay, and has left a large space in the middle.

He has 2 easy options for a pass, to pass back to Depay, or inside to Eric Molina (17), who would put a ball in from there.

However, Velazquez has high creativity, determination and crossing, and combined with his 'try killer balls' and 'tries long range passes' PPM, he whips the ball in, accurately finding Wittrup in the centre, who volleys into the top corner to make it 1-0.

Here, Velazquez has moved into space as Forest counter attack, with Depay and Wittrup both being man marked, and the RCM for QPR dropping to cover as well, Molina, who has QPR's LCM on him, flicks the ball out to the wing...

When the ball reaches him, the full back and RCM move out to try and cover, with assistance from the RM, who has tracked back to cause a 3 on 1.

Once again, his 'Tries Killer Balls' PPM, combined with his high determination, crossing and creativity allows him to fire in a top quality cross, and Memphis Depay gets on the end of it to make it 2-0.

[Cleon]

Some nice build up play there Rob

[robterrace]

Some nice build up play there Rob

I'm finding now I'm spending a little bit of time looking at the way in which each players attributes and PPMs are combining is helping my tactics a great amout, and its even more fun if I've got a winger on the right who likes to go past his marker, as Velazquez is ridiculously good hitting those 80 yard cross field missiles onto their feet.

[Lathund]

On my long-term Blackburn save I signed Cirigliano and used him as a DLP-D in a 4-4-2 for many, many seasons. I'm intentionally being loyal to my players, and so when the "squad status contract negotiation" bug set in, and the only way I could keep a 33 year old Cirigliano for another season was to pay him €300k pw and a €3m loyalty bonus, that's what I did

12 seasons, 10 in a row with 30+ league appearances. Seems like low injury proneness is another of his many strengths

Currently playing a 4-1-2-2-1 (i.e DMC, MCx2, AML/R) and using a DMC as DLP -S. Which got me thinking of a question; what are your thoughts on Defend vs Support? The reason I have mainly used Support is that I feel that with run from deep set to rarely in both cases, and the mentality even on support being quite defensive, that the player does offer enough protection to the back 4. Having started to concede more goals recently, which could also be explained by my first choice keeper being injured for 2 months, I'm looking to try Defend duty; but any additional feedback would be appreciated.

Here's Maicol Trani, my DLP. He has had the honor of being tutored by Cirigliano.

[Poonie]

Cirigliano....I've bought him for Man Utd end of season 1, long term replacement of rCarrick. Missed a year of my tutelage but I'll see he goes using this as a template. Thanks Cleon...

[anorthernboy]

Cleon - When you trained his attributes in season 1, what level did you have the intensity on? Ive always used the high intensity but im wondering if that will neglect the rest of the training aspects.

[Cleon]

Cleon - When you trained his attributes in season 1, what level did you have the intensity on? Ive always used the high intensity but im wondering if that will neglect the rest of the training aspects.

I used high individual intensity

[LilSaint]

what i've been wondering about -and may come off as a noob question in this part of the forum- is: since a players PA is set, does training make much of a difference?

yes, giving him the training from OP will probably get him closer to his PA faster, but in all fairness cirigliano is a quality youngster and will always develop into a great player. I can see the advantage of teaching PPM's though, but i'm a bit confused as to the use of training this intensively. Is it really worth the amount of time you need to dedicate to it?

[Cleon]

what i've been wondering about -and may come off as a noob question in this part of the forum- is: since a players PA is set, does training make much of a difference?

yes, giving him the training from OP will probably get him closer to his PA faster, but in all fairness cirigliano is a quality youngster and will always develop into a great player. I can see the advantage of teaching PPM's though, but i'm a bit confused as to the use of training this intensively. Is it really worth the amount of time you need to dedicate to it?

What do you mean by amount of time you need to dedicate to it? It takes seconds to set up and the player still develops great via training

As for your other questions about training, yes it matters a lot. You should have a read of this thread and look at the players I've posted;

Ajax Youth Development – When The Real World Meets Football Manager

[LilSaint]

What do you mean by amount of time you need to dedicate to it? It takes seconds to set up and the player still develops great via training

As for your other questions about training, yes it matters a lot. You should have a read of this thread and look at the players I've posted;

Ajax Youth Development – When The Real World Meets Football Manager

Thx, i'll have a look at it.

I've just always wondered if focussing on training really made a (big) difference in players actually reaching their PA, as oposed to just playing them.

[Cleon]

Thx, i'll have a look at it.

I've just always wondered if focussing on training really made a (big) difference in players actually reaching their PA, as oposed to just playing them.

Well training helps you shape them to be the player you need them to be with the correct attributes. Soemtimes it can be a fine line between a 20 goal a season striker and a 30 goal a season striker. It's all about having the correct attributes for the required role

[RTHerringbone]

As I understand it, just playing a player will see their attribute development be pretty linear across the board, and at a lower rate than if you apply any focus..

However, if you have as an example a guy whose attributes lend themselves to him being a Poacher, but his Finishing is relatively poor, it's only logical that you'd want to focus his Training in that area.

Training allows you to target areas of weakness until a point where you're happy that a player is suitably rounded for the role you want them to play.

When you've finished refining individual elements, just whack them on role training.

[Cleon]

As I understand it, just playing a player will see their attribute development be pretty linear across the board, and at a lower rate than if you apply any focus..

However, if you have as an example a guy whose attributes lend themselves to him being a Poacher, but his Finishing is relatively poor, it's only logical that you'd want to focus his Training in that area.

Training allows you to target areas of weakness until a point where you're happy that a player is suitably rounded for the role you want them to play.

When you've finished refining individual elements, just whack them on role training.

Aye thats true.

If you didn't give him an individual focus and change the team training to 20% or less then team training would shape him depending on what focus you used. So for example if you used fitness team focus then the distribution of the attributes would be placed more on workrate, acceleration pace, agility, balance, jumping, NF, stamina and strength.

[LilSaint]

makes sence. thx for clearing that up cleon & RTHerringbone