The FM 2023 and 2024 .. I guess.. 4-2-3-1 DM Thread

[Johnny Ace]

Bit bored of 4-3-3 DM's now so I thought I'd post up a little about the 4-2-3-1 DM's I use, I encourage others to do the same, sort of a thread to discuss them in general

I used to be more of 4-2-3-1 guy but seeing as the AI use the 4-2-3-1 DM and DMs got a tweak this year, I thought I may as well join in 

It's not my intention to have these Plugged and Played, more to discuss how they work, how they attack, how they defend, the combinations they create. I build them similar to how I put together the 4-3-3s (and 4-4-2's and probably any other shape I put together) 

I'm in the far distant future at an Elite club in Europe but I'm constantly battling teams from the EPL in the ECL. It's a joy to use to be honest and plays some lovely football which I credit to the players rather than myself

I'll start at the bottom half, which is usually a good place to start and I normally start looking at the DMs and Wingbacks 

The key to me in a 4-2-3-1 are the DM's, these guys are hugely important, it's a bit of a bugger recruiting them in 2050 as quality DMs are few and far between. The DLP is the holding role, it was a DLP(D) but I moved him to (S) purely because some of pass choices were negative and I wanted up him looking upfield when moving the ball on. He's the "anchor" of the two

Defensive Midfield (Support) another fairly safe DM role, he doesn't dribble, pass into space, roam, surge forward and I don't want two holding roles, another standard role I use a lot of

 I have a solid base of 4 (CDs and DMs) so Wingbacks it is, the left side of midfield is "anchored" so the left Wingback is on attack, right Wingback on Support 

Spoiler

The top half is the four advanced players, I use a Complete Forward on Attack because I'm pushing up high and this guy drops off and roams, so he's hard to mark and isn't constantly squeezing up field. The guy's a machine.

Spoiler

I've used an IF on the flanks and I wasn't keen, I prefer IW's with the top heavy shape, they feel less goal keen to me and generally better team players. I sometimes use dual IW's but my main setup is the Inverted Winger and Winger. The double "Wing" roles on the right spark my OCD a little but it's not a bad thing, having two players high and wide means there's more space in the middle 

The AMC is a straight up Attacking Midfielder(Support) I do use PIs on these guys to match their strengths, Bjorn has Take More Risks, Dribble More and Roam From Position and gets double digit goals and assists a season. His Traits include Comes Deep so he links everything up nicely. He's 30 and he'll cost me 4 transfer window budgets to replace so he might have to be an Enganche for a couple of seasons when he slows down and a couple of youngsters get up to standard  

Spoiler

Top half

Spoiler

 

It's what I call a Crush tactic, smother the opposition and wear them down, basically it's an attacking gegen tactic.

Spoiler

I do have a few other versions I use here, mainly just for variation and then another I use in tough away games, which I'll post up some time I'll probably add a few GIFs here and there too

Have you embraced the 4-2-3-1 DM? And seeing as there's no AMC thread this year, how are they getting on? 

[Rooney1010]

Now this is just the thread I was looking for. 
 

I can’t wait to see all the combinations you come up with. 
 

What was your issue with IF in a 4231?

[Johnny Ace]

3 hours ago, Rooney1010 said:

Now this is just the thread I was looking for. 
 

I can’t wait to see all the combinations you come up with. 

Cheers mate, I feel really late with this! 

3 hours ago, Rooney1010 said:

What was your issue with IF in a 4231?

Just too attacking with the CF(A), I think it's the hardcoded Get Further Forward that bothers me the most, it kind of takes some focus off the striker. Then I like the extra bit of defensive protection a IW gives, if that makes any sense I still think it's a viable option though 

[marcobell14]

1 hour ago, Johnny Ace said:

Bit bored of 4-3-3 DM's now so I thought I post up a little about the 4-2-3-1 DM's I use, I encourage others to do the same, sort of a thread to discuss them in general

I used to be more of 4-2-3-1 guy but seeing as the AI use the 4-2-3-1 DM and DMs got a tweak this year, I thought I may as well join in 

It's not my intention to have these Plugged and Played, more to discuss how they work, how they attack, how they defend, the combinations they create. I build them similar to how I put together the 4-3-3s (and 4-4-2's and probably any other shape I put together) 

I'm in the far distant future at an Elite club in Europe but I'm constantly battling teams from the EPL in the ECL. It's a joy to use to be honest and plays some lovely football which I credit to the players rather than myself

I'll start at the bottom half, which is usually a good place to start and I normally start looking at the DMs and Wingbacks 

The key to me in a 4-2-3-1 are the DM's, these guys are hugely important, it's a bit of a bugger recruiting them in 2050 as quality DMs are few and far between. The DLP is the holding role, it was a DLP(D) but I moved him to (S) purely because some of pass choices were negative and I wanted up him looking upfield when moving the ball on. He's the "anchor" of the two

Defensive Midfield (Support) another fairly safe DM role, he doesn't dribble, pass into space, roam, surge forward and I don't want two holding roles, another standard role I use a lot of

 I have a solid base of 4 (CDs and DMs) so Wingbacks it is, the left side of midfield is "anchored" so the left Wingback is on attack, right Wingback on Support 

  Hide contents

The top half is the four advanced players, I use a Complete Forward on Attack because I'm pushing up high and this guy drops off and roams, so he's hard to mark and isn't constantly squeezing up field. The guy's a machine.

  Hide contents

I've used an IF on the flanks and I wasn't keen, I prefer IW's with the top heavy shape, they feel less goal keen to me and generally better team players. I sometimes use dual IW's but my main setup is the Inverted Winger and Winger. The double "Wing" roles on the right spark my OCD a little but it's not a bad thing, having two players high and wide means there's more space in the middle 

The AMC is a straight up Attacking Midfielder(Support) I do use PIs on these guys to match their strengths, Bjorn has Take More Risks, Dribble More and Roam From Position and gets double digit goals and assists a season. His Traits include Comes Deep so he links everything up nicely. He's 30 and he'll cost me 4 transfer window budgets to replace so he might have to be an Enganche for a couple of seasons when he slows down and a couple of youngsters get up to standard  

  Hide contents

Top half

  Hide contents

 

It's what I call a Crush tactic, smother the opposition and wear them down, basically it's an attacking gegen tactic.

  Hide contents

I do have a few other versions I use here, mainly just for variation and then another I use in tough away games, which I'll post up some time I'll probably add a few GIFs here and there too

Have you embraced the 4-2-3-1 DM? And seeing as there's no AMC thread this year, how are they getting on? 

@Johnny Ace Good post man, you actually replied to one of 4231 posts just recently, so this is timely!

I found the same re: DLP, started on (D) but found (S) much more effective. I run a BWM next to them which usually I wouldn't as it can cause holes, but I'd say if you have a Kante level BWM (I signed Manu Kone and he's absolutely everywhere but without being too loose, and gets +7.00 every game) then it can work on (D). I've found the pivot needs to be pretty athletic and strong, I had a small, very intelligent technical DLP in there for a while but he just got bullied. 

Interesting that the three behind the forward you've all got on support, I think I'm realizing now at least two of front four should be support, having had three of the four on attack for while. I also use AM (S) and have like it a lot, prefer that role for the hole vs AP, with my designated playmaker being deeper.

And same re: IF, just always get better performance from IW/W. That said I did play around with an IF on your suggestion, and the one thing I really noticed and did like was how much space it opened up for my Wb on that side, as the IF dragged their Fb into the box, but then I didn't like how he just got stuck in traffic. Do you have any thoughts on how to manipulate this while still using an IW? Simple as setting them to sit more narrow? Also do you not find a W and Wb on same side get in each other's way?

I've been a bit scared to go Wb on both sides, currently use one. Do you not find teams then really exploit the gaps left on both wings and try and bypass the pivot?
Also for playing a high defensive line, being a dominant top of league team, what sort of pace stats do you require your Cbs to have? 
 

[Johnny Ace]

I thought this was an interesting goal, watch Taylor, he's a DLF(A), he gets bored and does a Harry Kane, he drops down to the DMs and picks out an IW(S). The AM(S) steps up in the DLF's absence to take on the role of striker to finish off the move 

Spoiler

 

[bosque]

YESSSSSSS, I need bigger thumbs up for this.

I used this system and players to somehow win the Bundesliga and reach CL Quarter finals in the second season:

Spoiler

I think we were very lucky. But it's basically a mid block system. We try to use the space the opposition lefts behind with the speed of Diaby and Nmecha/Hlozeck. The AMC doesn't shine but made 9 goals and 5 assists last season, he moves into channels. This incoming season I want to play out of defence and try an out-of-possession shape with the Striker and AMC marking DMC/RL position to prevent teams attacking down the middle. Similar to what Man City does with Haaland and De Bruyne positioning in a 4-4-2.

Edited August 4, 2023 by bosque

[Johnny Ace]

12 minutes ago, marcobell14 said:

@Johnny Ace Good post man, you actually replied to one of 4231 posts just recently, so this is timely!
 

Yes! You won the CL with Leeds 

12 minutes ago, marcobell14 said:

I found the same re: DLP, started on (D) but found (S) much more effective. I run a BWM next to them which usually I wouldn't as it can cause holes, but I'd say if you have a Kante level BWM (I signed Manu Kone and he's absolutely everywhere but without being too loose, and gets +7.00 every game) then it can work on (D). I've found the pivot needs to be pretty athletic and strong, I had a small, very intelligent technical DLP in there for a while but he just got bullied. 

Absolutely spot on, I love these guys to be rock solid, they play such an important role. Spotting this is so important and you found out exactly why. I even get picky if they're short  They're sort of a weak spot in my team as they're so difficult to find now, I'm not happy but it is what it is  

17 minutes ago, marcobell14 said:

Interesting that the three behind the forward you've all got on support, I think I'm realizing now at least two of front four should be support, having had three of the four on attack for while. I also use AM (S) and have like it a lot, prefer that role for the hole vs AP, with my designated playmaker being deeper.

 I use a bunch of different A & S pairings up top, it's rare I use an Attack duty out wide though, like I said, I find even the IF(S) too much at times. I think my most common setup does have the three Support behind one Attack. The flanks are important, if I have players over committing it can leave me short defensively.

The same on the AM, I rarely use an AP(S) now too, an AM(S) or (A) is normally enough for what I want and I find the Shoot Less Often a bit annoying. I've warmed to the Enganche a bit this year 

29 minutes ago, marcobell14 said:

And same re: IF, just always get better performance from IW/W. That said I did play around with an IF on your suggestion, and the one thing I really noticed and did like was how much space it opened up for my Wb on that side, as the IF dragged their Fb into the box, but then I didn't like how he just got stuck in traffic. Do you have any thoughts on how to manipulate this while still using an IW? Simple as setting them to sit more narrow? 

You've found out why I'm not so keen on an IF too, the traffic bit. You could try that on the IW, I have a Narrow setup in the OP and find the WB's really provide the team's width, it's a really effective "base", I can't remember your flanks off the top of my head but the WB(A)/IW(S) is a combo worth trying out 

35 minutes ago, marcobell14 said:

Also do you not find a W and Wb on same side get in each other's way?

 Not enough to cause an issue and I like it, like I touched on, if I have two players high and wide, the opposition can't just send one player out there, if they do it's an easy cross to my 6 4" striker, if they send two or three out to them it's one less player in the middle 

 

40 minutes ago, marcobell14 said:

I've been a bit scared to go Wb on both sides, currently use one. Do you not find teams then really exploit the gaps left on both wings and try and bypass the pivot?
Also for playing a high defensive line, being a dominant top of league team, what sort of pace stats do you require your Cbs to have? 

Risk and reward, every tactic and shape has it's weaknesses, it's impossible to cover everything, you just have to cover as much grass as possible My left hand side is usually where the opposition will start a move because of the WB(A) but you'll concede goals somehow. I do ask the backline to step up to help compress the distance between the CDs and DMs and it helps snuffing out the danger

 

44 minutes ago, marcobell14 said:

Also for playing a high defensive line, being a dominant top of league team, what sort of pace stats do you require your Cbs to have? 
 

 My CD's are mentality stronger than they are quick, it's just as important, I may as well screenshot them 

Spoiler

 They basically deal with the danger before it even happens

Feel free to post your 4-2-3-1 in here 

 

[Johnny Ace]

31 minutes ago, bosque said:

YESSSSSSS, I need bigger thumbs up for this.

I used this system and players to somehow win the Bundesliga and reach CL Quarter finals in the second season:

  Hide contents

I think we were very lucky. But it's basically a mid block system. We try to use the space the opposition lefts behind with the speed of Diaby and Nmecha/Hlozeck. The AMC doesn't shine but made 9 goals and 5 assists last season, he moves into channels. This incoming season I want to play out of defence and try an out-of-possession shape with the Striker and AMC marking DMC/RL position to prevent teams attacking down the middle. Similar to what Man City does with Haaland and De Bruyne positioning in a 4-4-2.

First thing I looked at was your base and it's looks very sound, the FB and VOL, then the DM(D) and CWB(A) 

Then great choices in your top half, the midblock and the AF 

The last time I managed Vlasic he was dynamite, has been a few years though so I don't know how he looks now, it was pre Everton for sure. 14 returns is still pretty decent   

You have a great setup there @bosque

[coach vahid]

I just one thing to say... Thank you.

[Johnny Ace]

3 minutes ago, coach vahid said:

I just one thing to say... Thank you.

You're welcome pal! 

Do you use a 4-2-3-1 DM setup?

[bosque]

2 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

First thing I looked at was your base and it's looks very sound, the FB and VOL, then the DM(D) and CWB(A) 

Then great choices in your top half, the midblock and the AF 

The last time I managed Vlasic he was dynamite, has been a few years though so I don't know how he looks now, it was pre Everton for sure. 14 returns is still pretty decent   

You have a great setup there @bosque

Thanks! Good to know I'm correct with the roles selection. 

Vlasic started on fire and then slowly fade out, but he scored some important goals in tough games.

We struggle a bit to create chances. We have a high average of 16 shots per game but only 16 xG. Not quality chances.

I would like my SV, IW and AM to do a bit more but maybe it's because we need better players.

[Johnny Ace]

5 minutes ago, bosque said:

Thanks! Good to know I'm correct with the roles selection. 

Well, they look good to me at least 

5 minutes ago, bosque said:

Vlasic started on fire and then slowly fade out, but he scored some important goals in tough games.

He sure made a difference then

6 minutes ago, bosque said:

We struggle a bit to create chances. We have a high average of 16 shots per game but only 16 xG. Not quality chances.

Attacking wise, that looks fine to me, I aim for around 0.10XG per shot so 16 shots to 1.6XG is fine, that's accounting for headers from corners and free kicks. No lie, I lost 4-0 the other day giving up 0.23XG  

9 minutes ago, bosque said:

I would like my SV, IW and AM to do a bit more but maybe it's because we need better players.

You've spotted where you can improve, your setup is fine so work on improving season on season  

[marcobell14]

41 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

Yes! You won the CL with Leeds 

Absolutely spot on, I love these guys to be rock solid, they play such an important role. Spotting this is so important and you found out exactly why. I even get picky if they're short  They're sort of a weak spot in my team as they're so difficult to find now, I'm not happy but it is what it is  

 I use a bunch of different A & S pairings up top, it's rare I use an Attack duty out wide though, like I said, I find even the IF(S) too much at times. I think my most common setup does have the three Support behind one Attack. The flanks are important, if I have players over committing it can leave me short defensively.

The same on the AM, I rarely use an AP(S) now too, an AM(S) or (A) is normally enough for what I want and I find the Shoot Less Often a bit annoying. I've warmed to the Enganche a bit this year 

You've found out why I'm not so keen on an IF too, the traffic bit. You could try that on the IW, I have a Narrow setup in the OP and find the WB's really provide the team's width, it's a really effective "base", I can't remember your flanks off the top of my head but the WB(A)/IW(S) is a combo worth trying out 

 Not enough to cause an issue and I like it, like I touched on, if I have two players high and wide, the opposition can't just send one player out there, if they do it's an easy cross to my 6 4" striker, if they send two or three out to them it's one less player in the middle 

 

Risk and reward, every tactic and shape has it's weaknesses, it's impossible to cover everything, you just have to cover as much grass as possible My left hand side is usually where the opposition will start a move because of the WB(A) but you'll concede goals somehow. I do ask the backline to step up to help compress the distance between the CDs and DMs and it helps snuffing out the danger

 

 My CD's are mentality stronger than they are quick, it's just as important, I may as well screenshot them 

  Reveal hidden contents

 They basically deal with the danger before it even happens

Feel free to post your 4-2-3-1 in here 

 

@Johnny Ace I did! Still so proud of that considering it was season 3, and was my first silverware + first year in CL. My next game is last 16 home leg vs Dortmund after winning 3 - 1 away, but I'm also a point off Newcastle at the top of league with nine games to go, and so I'm very divided about going deep trying to retain it vs just focusing on winning the league. Serious props for being in 2050 btw!! I'm on season 4 lol. Who are your main Bundesliga competitors in 2050?

Never though to use Enganche, be intrigued to see how one would fare in a high press system. 
 

Re: the high line, I think I need to pull the trigger but am nervous changing things at business end of the season. I've been using a standard line and am generally really solid in defence, but notice a number of goals being scored by players getting the ball in the free middle space and then playing balls in behind from there anyway. I've attached screenshots of my two Cbs and GK. I've felt for a while that, as you mention with yours, they have decent pace and then excellent mental stats to see if before it happens. My concern for a while has been that with a high line you have to play a SK, not sure if that's really the case? If it's advised, then I just feel Meslier isn't suited. His distribution/first touch (coupled with a weak left foot) is average + rushing out/acceleration, and he's always killed it for me as GK. But I want to play a high line...I feel like I've got a De Gea at United problem on my hands! What do you think?  

Edited August 4, 2023 by marcobell14

[Johnny Ace]

18 minutes ago, marcobell14 said:

@Johnny Ace I did! Still so proud of that considering it was season 3, and was my first silverware + first year in CL. My next game is last 16 home leg vs Dortmund after winning 3 - 1 away, but I'm also a point off Newcastle at the top of league with nine games to go, and so I'm very divided about going deep trying to retain it vs just focusing on winning the league. Serious props for being in 2050 btw!! I'm on season 4 lol. Who are your main Bundesliga competitors in 2050?
 

Cheers man!! It's more 2048 but it's the 48/49 season, so close enough 

Stick with what you're doing at this point for sure, it's got you to where you are 

Right now it's Hoffenheim, Dortmund and RBL. Dortmund used a really good 4-2-3-1 DM last season, pretty much the only games they lost were against us, I did sketch it out at one point but I've lost it, sure they used a Volante(A). I'm Bayern and board want me to sign their players so I oblige 

29 minutes ago, marcobell14 said:

Never though to use Enganche, be intrigued to see how one would fare in a high press system. 

It's the old FM thing of your AM's old and slow, use him as an Enganche. I think I will, he gets into the box, doesn't use Shoot Less Often, it looked good in preseason, it's an option in the future

 

42 minutes ago, marcobell14 said:

Re: the high line, I think I need to pull the trigger but am nervous changing things at business end of the season. I've been using a standard line and am generally really solid in defence, but notice a number of goals being scored by players getting the ball in the free middle space and then playing balls in behind from there anyway. I've attached screenshots of my two Cbs and GK. I've felt for a while that, as you mention with yours, they have decent pace and then excellent mental stats to see if before it happens. My concern for a while has been that with a high line you have to play a SK, not sure if that's really the case? If it's advised, then I just feel Meslier isn't suited. His distribution/first touch (coupled with a weak left foot) is average + rushing out/acceleration, and he's always killed it for me as GK. But I want to play a high line...I feel like I've got a De Gea at United problem on my hands! What do you think?  

 

I like a SK with a High Line, I think Mesiler is getting dinged on his Acceleration and Passing, looks fine for a SK(D) but like you, business end, title on the line, I wouldn't play around with things too much. Your CD's look good to me, they look a really reliable pairing 

[coach vahid]

Il y a 11 heures, Johnny Ace a dit :

You're welcome pal! 

Do you use a 4-2-3-1 DM setup?

No. Not yet. Because you just create this thread 🙂.

And because i'm still on fm22 and we know that the players on dm positions have not the same behavior on fm23. But maybe later.

[Johnny Ace]

1 hour ago, coach vahid said:

No. Not yet. Because you just create this thread 🙂.

And because i'm still on fm22 and we know that the players on dm positions have not the same behavior on fm23. But maybe later.

I think they got adjusted in FM22 too, in one of the Betas my Anchor Man overlapped the striker to score. It was on the one those FM moments so I had feeling something had changed    

[Bakiano]

The thread I didn't looking for, but a thread I need. 

 

Started a new save with Hajduk Split ( last time I managed them in CM 2002/2003 and had I great save) and wanted to try 4231 with two DM-s which I find the most balanced formation on FM23.

Will post an SS when I get home, but my two DM-s are Volante and Defensive midfielder both on support duty, where Volante have TI get further forward, which is currently working well for now.

[silentventus]

This thread came at such a perfect time, I have been meaning to play around with the 4-2-3-1 myself actually especially since it suits my current team atm. So I just wanted to ask if this was a solid base?

LB : Wingback (A)

DCL : BPD (D)

DCR : BPD (D) 

RB : FB (S)

DMR : Segundo V (A)

DML : DM (D) 

Reason I went for the FB on support is because I have no one that can play as a WB hence why I also went for a SV on that side. 

Also just wanted to say I really enjoyed your 433 thread real eye opener on how to balance out your roles. 

 

Edited August 5, 2023 by silentventus

[CityAndColour]

Currently with Thatcham Town in tier seven, after getting promoted first season with a balanced 4-2-3-1 with CMs. We started well at this level too, but a seven game winless streak (0-2-5) got the fans on my back a bit and prompted me to look at dropping back CMs back to DM, and going a little more defensive. My left back was also struggling and I have a better player in that role, but he's right-footed. So I came up with this:

Spoiler

My two best players are my right back and my left winger so I want them with the ball as much as possible. I'm also not going to find DMs highly rated in the RPM and HB roles at this level but have always wanted to try this combo so why not!

First result was promising, with a 3-1 win and an xG of over 3, with my LW running the show and my DLF scoring a hattrick. This was in a home match against another team tipped to be in the lower half though, so will see how it goes against stronger opposition and away. May look at dropping the tempo back to normal and playing a SK too.

Edited August 5, 2023 by CityAndColour

[Johnny Ace]

3 hours ago, silentventus said:

 

Also just wanted to say I really enjoyed your 433 thread real eye opener on how to balance out your roles. 

 

Thank you! I think so, looks like a great base there!

Looks good @CityAndColour, you could play your leftback as just a FB(S), he'll play like a half FB half IWB then, I do it all the time if I don't want the fullback to fully invert, just a thought anyway   Good luck with your pivot! 

 

[Sammie B]

On 04/08/2023 at 20:03, Johnny Ace said:

You've found out why I'm not so keen on an IF too, the traffic bit. You could try that on the IW, I have a Narrow setup in the OP and find the WB's really provide the team's width, it's a really effective "base", I can't remember your flanks off the top of my head but the WB(A)/IW(S) is a combo worth trying out 

How do you decide when to use the TI fairly narrow or narrow?

[WhyMe]

I'd be interested in your thoughts on getting a Raumdueter to work in a 4-2-3-1, I've always liked the idea of this role and usually have a pop at making one work in each FM, though rarely with any success (bar one notable exception a few FMs ago when I used an asymmetric formation to great success), though I haven't got round to it yet this year.

In the past I have always assumed that a Raum would be the teams main goal scorer given the wide poacher description and that you would play it with the inverted foot (e.g. left flank right foot).  However, reading some descriptions recently this might have been erroneous thinking and that the Raum is a little bit less a goalscorer than the IF and bit more a hybrid role (albeit a bit more towards goal scoring over assisting than say the Treq).

I almost never play a 4-2-3-1 system either (4-3-3, 4-4-1-1 or 3 at the back for the most part).  To that end I wondered about trying to kill 2 birds with one stone with a final FM23 save trying to get a Raum working in a 4-2-3-1

I was thinking an attack duty striker, but potentially one that will be at least a little mobile/creative such as CF-a or DLF-a) with a creative AM behind him (one with drop deep to get ball and excellent passing/vision etc.) and a regular winger support on the opposite flank to the Raum.

The 2 main goal threats would be the striker and Raum with the AM and winger providing different types of ammunition (through balls and crosses).

The full system could look something like

              CF-a

Raum   AM-s     W-s

      DLP-s  DM-s

WB-s CB-d BPD-d  FB-a

             SW-d

 

I was thinking a possession system or fluid counter, but the challenge I have always had with the Raum is getting him to perform better than (or at least as well as) a W-a or IF-a.   In this system you could swap some of the roles around potentially which could be more effective than the above options e.g. different striker options such AF-a or PF-a or AP-s or EG for the AM along with a variety of choices in the back six that could work.  If you were trying to get the best out of a Raum what would you go for?

 

There are other system options that might also work, for example an attempt to overload the Raum's flank by playing

              DLF-a

Raum   AM-s     IW-s

      VOL-A  DM-d

FB-s CB-d BPD-d  WB-a

             SW-d

The idea here would be to build up play on the right flank and then switch play to the left at the appropriate moment to hit the onrushing Raum/Vol in space and again there are different options for striker that could do the same job (e.g. TQ-a with hold up ball, CF-s or potentially other support duty strikers, but the risk there would be the striker and AM trying to do the same job too much.  Though an AP-s on the right flank could be an option as well as a DLP-d to try and encourage the overload and switch of play.  Again lots of options and I'd be interested in your opinion on how to bring the best out of a Raum in this sort of system.

 

[CityAndColour]

20 hours ago, Johnny Ace said:

Looks good @CityAndColour, you could play your leftback as just a FB(S), he'll play like a half FB half IWB then, I do it all the time if I don't want the fullback to fully invert, just a thought anyway   Good luck with your pivot! 

 

Ended up going back to a more conventional set-up, with a DLP(d) and a BWM(s) in the two DM slots. I'll probably revisit a HB and RPM once I have the players to do it, but at such a low level I was probably asking a bit too much of them. I only allow myself to sign players found by my scouts too so there's a bit of luck involved to get decent DMs.

Results so far have been reasonable without setting the world on fire. We've gone 2-4-1 in seven matches, scoring 11 goals and conceding five - crucially, we haven't conceded more than once in a single game so it's definitely been defensively stable. We're one of the weaker teams in the division and have a small squad so it's definitely been a success so far.

Last result was a cracking 5-0 at home to Totton, where we had an xG of 3.29. This included one of my favourite goals I've scored - my left winger got the ball and went to the byline, then turned back and found my IWB making a diagonal run towards the edge of the area. He shot and my AMC arrived late to deflect it past the 'keeper.

Looking forward to how it evolves as my players become more familiar with it.

Edited August 6, 2023 by CityAndColour

[Johnny Ace]

2 hours ago, Sammie B said:

How do you decide when to use the TI fairly narrow or narrow?

I generally like playing Narrow, it helps keep my players closer together vertically so they can find one another easier which helps us keep the ball. When we lose possession, they're a tighter unit to press the opposition which helps win the ball back

I find it helps funnel play in toward the AMC and Striker too. I'll go wider sometimes in the games where we're in total control or where I think we can take advantage of the wider areas      

[Johnny Ace]

Try it out @WhyMe, I gave up on the Raumdeuter a long time ago 

Keep us updated @CityAndColour this has a lot of potential 

[Irn Rvd]

@Johnny Aceany ideas how you would set up a de zerbi? I’m a bit of a 4231 noob. 

[Johnny Ace]

57 minutes ago, Irn Rvd said:

@Johnny Aceany ideas how you would set up a de zerbi? I’m a bit of a 4231 noob. 

There's a thread here about it to have a read through 

 

[Sjschurink]

Great Thread @Johnny Ace thanks!

 

I almost play the same way with my Napoli side, but i have some questions. In most games i get like 20 shots sometimes more but most of them aren't on target. I've tried many things like lower the tempo or mentality but it doens't help that much. Do you have some advice what i could try?

here's my tactic 

 

[Johnny Ace]

Have a look at who's taking all of the shots @Sjschurink, I suspect the IF(A) will have a fair few, I talked about my experience with them in the OP

You have Slightly Higher Tempo above too, so you could slow it down for periods of the game 

[Bitner]

I abandoned the 4-2-3-1 this year as it doesn't work w/o DMs.

It's my secondary tactic now, the most balanced i have, the 4-3-3 is the attacking one and the 4-1-4-1 the counter-attacking/defensive one.

AM does well when i play it, but i'm not playing it regularly anymore.

But my 4-3-3 resembles a 4-2-3-1 because the RCM goes to the attack and LCM stays more to build up, and it's pretty nice

Cheers,
Bitner 

[TheMartello]

4 minutes ago, Bitner said:

I abandoned the 4-2-3-1 this year as it doesn't work w/o DMs.

It's my secondary tactic now, the most balanced i have, the 4-3-3 is the attacking one and the 4-1-4-1 the counter-attacking/defensive one.

AM does well when i play it, but i'm not playing it regularly anymore.

But my 4-3-3 resembles a 4-2-3-1 because the RCM goes to the attack and LCM stays more to build up, and it's pretty nice

Cheers,
Bitner 

Maybe you could share your 4-3-3 in the 4-3-3 topic? 

[Johnny Ace]

A nice and easy combo you can create in a 4-2-3-1 DM is right here below

Applies in a 4-3-3 too and probably every other shape you can put a FB(A) and W(S) together, just watch Klunter here

He passes out wide to the W(S) and then goes on the natural underlap and crosses for the striker, a lovely combo  

[Johnny Ace]

14 minutes ago, Bitner said:

I abandoned the 4-2-3-1 this year as it doesn't work w/o DMs.

The usual 4-2-3-1? What's up with it?

[Bitner]

1 hora atrás, Johnny Ace disse:

The usual 4-2-3-1? What's up with it?

the 2 CMs left a countrymile wide open in front of the defenders, even using a defend mentality on one of them.

Cheers,
Bitner 

[Captain_T]

Am 4.8.2023 um 20:33 schrieb bosque:

YESSSSSSS, I need bigger thumbs up for this.

I used this system and players to somehow win the Bundesliga and reach CL Quarter finals in the second season:

  Inhalt unsichtbar machen

I think we were very lucky. But it's basically a mid block system. We try to use the space the opposition lefts behind with the speed of Diaby and Nmecha/Hlozeck. The AMC doesn't shine but made 9 goals and 5 assists last season, he moves into channels. This incoming season I want to play out of defence and try an out-of-possession shape with the Striker and AMC marking DMC/RL position to prevent teams attacking down the middle. Similar to what Man City does with Haaland and De Bruyne positioning in a 4-4-2.

Realy great tactic!

It looks quite simple, but also well suited for the types of players you have. You have a lot of speed in your team. 

Frimpong, Diaby, L.Nmecha and Wirtz should be some of the most talented players of the league. 

By the way: have you tried Wirtz in the AMC position instead of Vlasic?

When you won the Bundesliga, how many losses have you had in the league?

It will be interesting how your tactic works against teams that are playing more defensively and parking the bus.

How is your team doing in the third season now?

Best regards!

[Lasson]

The timing of this thread couldn't be any better.

I am now with Leicester after stints with Vojvodina and FC København. I am currently using my 5-2-2-1 DM AM shape with great success, but, as with Vojvodina, I want to settle in with a back four as my team is developing in terms of ability. 

At both Vojvodina and FC København I developed a 4-3-3 system, but at Leicester, I would like to keep the double pivot in front of my defenders.

@Johnny Ace, are you going to post more ideas or let the thread develop on its own?

[Johnny Ace]

Good stuff mate 

7 minutes ago, Lasson said:

@Johnny Ace, are you going to post more ideas or let the thread develop on its own?

Bit of both really, I'll probably talk about a few different ones, I use 4 or 5 different ones at Bayern so I'll go through those at some point. I had a great result with one of them over the weekend so I'll probably go through that one next  

I'm using a fun one on the lower leagues too so I'll go over that for some variety 

[OJ403]

I've been playing with a 4-2-3-1 for the first time in pretty much ever this year with my Hamburg save. I've found playing the double pivot on the same duty and the AM one higher (e.g., DMs on support, AM on attack) to be really successful. It ensures the defensive midfielders stay together and link up with the back line and attacking midfielder unit and help circulate the ball in all phases of play.

I've also offset the attacking midfielder to one side, which encourages the opposite wide player to cut inside and form a box midfield of sorts, with the full back overlapping.

[Johnny Ace]

1 minute ago, OJ403 said:

I've been playing with a 4-2-3-1 for the first time in pretty much ever this year with my Hamburg save. I've found playing the double pivot on the same duty and the AM one higher (e.g., DMs on support, AM on attack) to be really successful. It ensures the defensive midfielders stay together and link up with the back line and attacking midfielder unit and help circulate the ball in all phases of play.

Fantastic point, a double DM(S) is a stable partnership I use. Much like in a 4-4-2 and CMs, I find the partnership does't move up and down the field together, they're nearly always off set from one another, if the one goes forward a little more, the other will stay back and cover. Neither role bursts into the box, carries the ball, roams etc In defence they form a nice box with the CD's,  they're a nice reliable partnership   

[Johnny Ace]

There's a thread here I did for FM22, funnily enough about Bayern Munich's then current squad, follows the same method I put them together now. The base is very similar to how @bosque sets his 

 

 

[bosque]

Thanks!  

I try Wirtz as the AMC in some games. I swap him with Vlasic but I don't see differences in the outcome.

9 hours ago, Captain_T said:

When you won the Bundesliga, how many losses have you had in the league?

We lost 4 games. Twice against Bayern, away at Freiburg and away at Wolfsburg.

9 hours ago, Captain_T said:

It will be interesting how your tactic works against teams that are playing more defensively and parking the bus.

We struggle  I'm still a brick as a tactician and I can't see notable differences when trying to play slower and wider against teams playing deep. I learned not to use brute force because it doesn't work either.

9 hours ago, Captain_T said:

How is your team doing in the third season now?

I'm only 4 games into the season. We beaten Hoffenheim away, Werder Bremen at home, narrowly lost with Bayern away and awfully lost 4-0 away at Dortmund. We started well and then did nothing against Dortmund. I hope we can turn around that result.

Edited August 7, 2023 by bosque

[bosque]

1 hour ago, Johnny Ace said:

Fantastic point, a double DM(S) is a stable partnership I use. Much like in a 4-4-2 and CMs, I find the partnership does't move up and down the field together, they're nearly always off set from one another, if the one goes forward a little more, the other will stay back and cover. Neither role bursts into the box, carries the ball, roams etc In defence they form a nice box with the CD's,  they're a nice reliable partnership   

Interesting ideas you and @OJ403 are sharing. I will try those because I feel it fits what I want from my team and specially from Wirtz, I want him in more central areas.

[Lasson]

A quick toying around with the current squad led me to this setup in the 4-2-3-1. I might give it a go for a couple of matches to see if I'm on to something.

[OJ403]

3 hours ago, bosque said:

Interesting ideas you and @OJ403 are sharing. I will try those because I feel it fits what I want from my team and specially from Wirtz, I want him in more central areas.

I'm getting great play from Roony Bardghji on the right as an IF-S, with Paul Wanner offset to AMCL as a SS-A. I find the SS acts as a more creative player than the AM-A, roaming round and linking up play. He also scores a lot of goals - Wanner is our leading goal scorer so far this season. Roony then roams in field and our right back overlaps to form a four behind our central striker who's main role is to push back and move opposition centre backs round to create space for our four behind.

5 hours ago, Johnny Ace said:

Fantastic point, a double DM(S) is a stable partnership I use. Much like in a 4-4-2 and CMs, I find the partnership does't move up and down the field together, they're nearly always off set from one another, if the one goes forward a little more, the other will stay back and cover. Neither role bursts into the box, carries the ball, roams etc In defence they form a nice box with the CD's,  they're a nice reliable partnership   

Yes, it certainly is interesting. It's simple and stable and allows players to interpret the role as they see fit to a degree. I have five players I tend to play in these positions: one playmaker type, one pure holder/destroy and three box to box types players. This lets me chop and change personnel and adjust the system that way. I also often change the roles/duties during games. We're known to drop both onto defend duties when we want to block out space for opponents to attack centrally, or change one of the roles to a DLP or segundo volante depending on how things are playing out in game.

[fungs4]

Thanks again for the thread @Johnny Ace. I've been experimenting with a 4-2-3-1 on my Rennes save, and did really well first season coming 2nd with 92 points (PSG ended up with 105 ). I have been using the same tactic for my second season, and am struggling a lot more. From reading this thread, I think some of the things I would like to try include changing my left winger from an IF to IW and maybe taking off either 'Higher Tempo' or 'Pass into Space', to help retain possession better. The idea I have is to create a sort of transition based tactic to really attack with speed, and maybe it's not working so well this season because teams are sitting back against me. Do any of you have any other suggestions as to what I should try? 

[Johnny Ace]

Most likely that's the case now @fungs4, I think what you're saying are good ideas to try! Removing Pass into space -there's probably less space to pass into now. Removing Higher Tempo - higher tempo means you can hit teams before they get back into shape but at the potential cost of possession and quality chances, both are worth a try. Dropping both would probably help in controlling the game a bit more 

I'd have both wide forwards on Support myself, I feel the pros outweigh the cons of it, but to pick one of yours, it would be the left forward  

[ejleal]

@Johnny Ace How about a 4-2-3-1 with a trequartista in the AM position or even as a striker? that would be fun

[Aoyao]

How about tempo in the 4231?

Higher or lower.

[giggsxbr]

I'd like to let AMC close to AMR to make the space for IW. This is my tactic and I think the IW get quiet good stat.

 

 

Edited August 9, 2023 by giggsxbr

[Johnny Ace]

13 hours ago, ejleal said:

@Johnny Ace How about a 4-2-3-1 with a trequartista in the AM position or even as a striker? that would be fun

Sure would be, not something I've done much this year to be honest, give it a go and see how you get on  

6 hours ago, Aoyao said:

How about tempo in the 4231?

Higher or lower.

Neither's right or wrong, use it situationally  

That's great @giggsxbr, a very well thought out setup