4-4-2 Flat Lower League Formation (ChatGPT)

[rootcoors]

With me starting a new save I thought why not try out and ask ChatGPT what it's thoughts were on a good 4-4-2 formation for a lower league team.

All I told it was that I wanted to play with an attacking left back, a poacher as the right forward and an attacking winger on the right. I said I wanted us to be balanced and that I didn't have a playmaker in my team so need 2 CM's to work together for the team.

This was the output for the tactic with a summary:

Tactic:

Mentality: Balanced
Shape: Flexible

Roles:

Goalkeeper: Goalkeeper (Defend)
Right Fullback: Fullback (Support)
Left Fullback: Fullback (Attack)
Central Defender (Right): Central Defender (Defend)
Central Defender (Left): Central Defender (Defend)
Right Midfielder: Winger (Attack)
Central Midfielder (Right): Central Midfielder (Support)
Central Midfielder (Left): Central Midfielder (Support)
Left Midfielder: Inverted Winger (Support)
Striker (Right): Poacher (Attack)
Striker (Left): Pressing Forward (Support)

Team Instructions:

Play shorter passes
Work ball into box
Play narrower
Play out of defense
Be more disciplined

Summary:
This football manager tactic aims to maintain possession of the ball while being adaptable to changing situations in the game. The team will start with a balanced mentality and flexible shape, and the players will work together to defend the goal while also providing attacking threats on both flanks. The team's instructions to play shorter passes, work the ball into the box, and play narrower will encourage the team to maintain possession of the ball and play more patiently in the buildup. The instruction to play out of defense will also encourage the team to start their attacks from the back, rather than resorting to long balls. Finally, the instruction to be more disciplined will help the team maintain their shape and avoid making rash challenges that could lead to conceding fouls or picking up unnecessary yellow or red cards.

I then asked it to describe how the players will work together on the pitch:

The goalkeeper will play a defensive role, staying alert for any incoming attacks from the opposition and providing cover for the defense.

The two central defenders will work together to defend the goal, with the right central defender playing a more conservative role and the left central defender providing more cover and support to the midfield.

The right fullback will provide support to the midfield and right winger, making runs forward to create space and delivering crosses into the box when possible. The left fullback will overlap and make runs down the left wing to provide an additional attacking threat.

The right winger will focus on attacking the opposition down the right flank, making runs forward to support the strikers and delivering crosses into the box. The central midfielder on the right will provide support to the defense and make forward runs to support the attack.

The central midfielders on the left and right will provide support to the attack by making runs forward and delivering key passes to the strikers. The left midfielder, who is an inverted winger on a support duty, will cut inside and provide support from the left.

The poacher will work to get into scoring positions and finish off chances, while the pressing forward will press the opposition defenders, create space for the poacher, and provide support to the midfield.

This football manager tactic is based on a 4-4-2 formation with a balanced and disciplined approach. The team instructions aim to encourage patient and possession-oriented play, with an emphasis on shorter passes and working the ball into the box. The formation is designed to provide good defensive cover while also creating attacking opportunities down both flanks. The poacher and pressing forward partnership up front aims to provide a threat in front of goal while also supporting the midfield. This tactic is well-suited to a lower league team looking to establish a solid defensive foundation while also creating scoring opportunities on the counter-attack.

----

I don't know about you but this is pretty impressive stuff. Yes I know it inevitability comes down to your players and how you want to play the game but I would imagine you could feed that information into it and it would consider that too. This was just something I did really quickly.

Have anyone else used ChatGPT in relation to Football Manager?

Edited May 2, 2023 by rootcoors

[Johnny Ace]

1 hour ago, rootcoors said:

I don't know about you but this is pretty impressive stuff. Yes I know it inevitability comes down to your players and how you want to play the game but I would imagine you could feed that information into it and it would consider that too. This was just something I did really quickly.

Key thing is, have you tried it? 

I've seen a bit about FM and ChatGPT lately, seems pretty interesting but I don't think it's something you could rely on 

[rootcoors]

Just now, Johnny Ace said:

Key thing is, have you tried it? 

I've seen a bit about FM and ChatGPT lately, seems pretty interesting but I don't think it's something you could rely on 

Haha no I've not... as like you have said there its interesting, but not sure you can rely on it as its team and player dependant.

That said based on the info it gives you and the way you can have discussion I do think it has potential - especially for a new player wanting to get an understanding of the roles, team instructions and how they interact with each other etc... I think the more you feed into it the more you will get out of it - but again I come back to the above (team and player dependant).

Would potentially be good to do an experiment sometime, but not now - still keen to hear if anyone else has chatted FM to it though.

[rootcoors]

After a bit of discussion with ChatGPT understanding why it was suggesting things, throwing this and that at it for consideration... here is the formation it landed on.

 

Spoiler

This is how it performed in its first match, getting a 4-0 Away win over Dover.

 

Spoiler

Spoiler

 

[Justified]

Actually, it's suggestion isn't half bad. Potentially I would swap the strikers around as a IWsu moving in behind a poacher and the winger on attack crossing into the far post for the poacher to latch onto could work quite well.

[Englishhammer]

6 hours ago, rootcoors said:

Have anyone else used ChatGPT in relation to Football Manager?

Cant get past verifying my phone number for some reason 

[rootcoors]

3 minutes ago, Englishhammer said:

Cant get past verifying my phone number for some reason 

I have to drop the 0 from the start of mine.

[crusadertsar]

What is ChatGPT?

[rootcoors]

1 hour ago, crusadertsar said:

What is ChatGPT?

Its AI (Atrificial Intelegence) that understands and can respond to most requests. From something simple to advanced coding.

Official Site: https://openai.com/blog/chatgpt

WIKI: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ChatGPT

Very clever stuff.

[bezzy1970]

24 minutes ago, rootcoors said:

Its AI (Atrificial Intelegence) that understands and can respond to most requests. From something simple to advanced coding.

Official Site: https://openai.com/blog/chatgpt

WIKI: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ChatGPT

Very clever stuff.

It could also be very scary as well. 

I've tried doing 2 different types of tactics one being attacking and one defensive and both have worked quite well for N Forest in their first season in the Premiership. When I get home I'll post them up for people to look at

[rootcoors]

3 minutes ago, bezzy1970 said:

It could also be very scary as well. 

I've tried doing 2 different types of tactics one being attacking and one defensive and both have worked quite well for N Forest in their first season in the Premiership. When I get home I'll post them up for people to look at

I agree on the scary.

Defo get them posted up in here if you will mate. Would be interested what you asked it to get the output too if you don't mind, if not no worries still be good to see the tactics it chucked out.

[bezzy1970]

 

All I asked for was ""Create a 442 attacking for Football Manager 2023"" and then the same for defensive.

I finished 9th in my first season which ain't bad seeming we were put down to be 19th by the media.

[Cleon]

ChatGPT isn't a bad starting place for getting your ideas together and getting a vision of how you want to play. It's no different to the existing presets really in that sense. Just beware that ChatGPT doesn't know stuff beyond 2021. So wouldn't include new settings/roles or know of any changes the game has undertaken since then.

[crusadertsar]

2 hours ago, rootcoors said:

Its AI (Atrificial Intelegence) that understands and can respond to most requests. From something simple to advanced coding.

Official Site: https://openai.com/blog/chatgpt

WIKI: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ChatGPT

Very clever stuff.

Oh boy. I see. There seems to be AI used everywhere. But i definitely would not look to it for tactical advice  You better off just using presets if you don't want to bother creating your own tactics. But whats the point of playing the game then?

Edited May 3, 2023 by crusadertsar

[rootcoors]

33 minutes ago, bezzy1970 said:

 

All I asked for was ""Create a 442 attacking for Football Manager 2023"" and then the same for defensive.

I finished 9th in my first season which ain't bad seeming we were put down to be 19th by the media.

Nice! I would say 9th is good too, especially when playing as that team and trying out a tactic AI chucked at you without knowing the players and their best roles etc...

[rootcoors]

10 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Oh boy. I see. There seems to be AI used everywhere. But i definitely would not look to it for tactical advice 

Haha it is everywhere you're not wrong.

I know what you mean - as I said in the first post it doesn't know the players and their roles or attributes, but still find it quite cool that it can provide a base (similar to what @Cleon said above about the in game ones) to give you a foundation to work with.

What it's probably really good at is explaining how roles work together, and how things could look on the pitch - although again it doesn't have the full picture so to speak.

[crusadertsar]

1 hour ago, rootcoors said:

Haha it is everywhere you're not wrong.

I know what you mean - as I said in the first post it doesn't know the players and their roles or attributes, but still find it quite cool that it can provide a base (similar to what @Cleon said above about the in game ones) to give you a foundation to work with.

What it's probably really good at is explaining how roles work together, and how things could look on the pitch - although again it doesn't have the full picture so to speak.

But that's exactly the thing. It doesn't know the players and their attributes. Which is exactly the reason why it's garbage for me. When i make a tactic i create each one with a specific team in mind. If you want to do well in FM23 (mind you actually win a trophy at high level) you need to tweak many things. And really customize your tactic to fit your players. Sure AI tactics could help you do okay in lower leagues or even win promotions. But same can be done with preset tactics at those levels. Many things can be done on autopilot when you are in lower leagues. Simply because if you understand a little about team building, you will be able to craft a much better squad than AI in a season or two. But once you make it to Premiere League that's not really the case anymore (or at least takes much longer) and there is no such thing as plug and win anymore.

[rootcoors]

7 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

But that's exactly the thing. It doesn't know the players and their attributes. Which is exactly the reason why it's garbage for me. When i make a tactic i create each one with a specific team in mind. If you want to do well in FM23 (mind you actually win a trophy at high level) you need to tweak many things. And really customize your tactic to fit your players. Sure AI tactics could help you do okay in lower leagues or even win promotions. But same can be done with preset tactics at those levels. Many things can be done on autopilot when you are in lower leagues. Simply because if you understand a little about team building, you will be able to craft a much better squad than AI in a season or two. But once you make it to Premiere League that's not really the case anymore (or at least takes much longer) and there is no such thing as plug and win anymore.

All very valid mate - completely agree.

[Andros]

I wouldnt be too quick to dismiss ChatGPT, it is another tool that people can use to get enjoyment out of the game.  At this point @rootcoors and others are just playing around with it to see what it can do, and if this makes the game fun then cool.  See also this thread for how some people are using it.

 

ChatGPT (in my understanding) is only as useful as the questions being asked.  I would assume if the user spent the time explaining the attributes of players then it could give more accurate results.

 

So @crusadertsar you have had many amazing threads on FM for like a decade, but until you read this thread you did not know what ChatGPT was.  Maybe give it a second look before dismissing it.  Obviously you know more than most on how to play FM, but new tools can be of use if we just play around with them and see what they can do.

 

On a side note, i work in education and I wonder how many students have given me reports made by ChatGPT.  I am pretty sure I could not tell the difference yet!.

[crusadertsar]

38 minutes ago, Andros said:

I wouldnt be too quick to dismiss ChatGPT, it is another tool that people can use to get enjoyment out of the game.  At this point @rootcoors and others are just playing around with it to see what it can do, and if this makes the game fun then cool.  See also this thread for how some people are using it.

 

ChatGPT (in my understanding) is only as useful as the questions being asked.  I would assume if the user spent the time explaining the attributes of players then it could give more accurate results.

 

So @crusadertsar you have had many amazing threads on FM for like a decade, but until you read this thread you did not know what ChatGPT was.  Maybe give it a second look before dismissing it.  Obviously you know more than most on how to play FM, but new tools can be of use if we just play around with them and see what they can do.

 

On a side note, i work in education and I wonder how many students have given me reports made by ChatGPT.  I am pretty sure I could not tell the difference yet!.

I've been reading quite a bit about it now and it's still not my cup of tea. But thanks for offering your point of view.

Edited May 3, 2023 by crusadertsar

[Englishhammer]

I’m having a good go at it later but had a play last night just before bed (and on chatGPT). I was asking about 442, Catenaccio, Counter Attacking, but not getting into too much depth with auxiliary questions yet.

Seriously though, it does seem to throw out good ideas. However I find it strange it keeps suggesting the same 4 man midfield for me as it does you, despite being a different formation and style. I would argue it’s uncommon we see Wide Midfielders suggested by humans. This makes me wonder if in some ways it’s close to a script (For eg a 4 man midfield with only 1 or 2 ahead of it is likely a defensive or counter style so the roles suggested will almost always be similar)

But honestly so far it does generally come up with great suggestions that are a good basis to start with as I believe@Cleon said. I’m looking forward to trying it again.

[Cleon]

13 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

But that's exactly the thing. It doesn't know the players and their attributes. Which is exactly the reason why it's garbage for me. When i make a tactic i create each one with a specific team in mind. If you want to do well in FM23 (mind you actually win a trophy at high level) you need to tweak many things. And really customize your tactic to fit your players. Sure AI tactics could help you do okay in lower leagues or even win promotions. But same can be done with preset tactics at those levels. Many things can be done on autopilot when you are in lower leagues. Simply because if you understand a little about team building, you will be able to craft a much better squad than AI in a season or two. But once you make it to Premiere League that's not really the case anymore (or at least takes much longer) and there is no such thing as plug and win anymore.

While I don't necessarily disagree here there is a counter point to this.

ChatGPT can be great for understanding the style of play you want to create and give you logical reasonings behind why and how it should function. It can also tell you the relationships between the players and they roles and how they link up. If you really wanted to aswell, you can input the player attributes and it would also give you feedback on them. 

If people really wanted they could use it as an intelligent "assistant manager" and throw ideas around on tactical stuff and get pretty good feedback. Obviously you still have to implement those ideas and make them work. But it's no different than using the forum for feedback etc.

ChatGPT can also give you valuable information on how you can counter other strategies, other shapes, your own vulnerabilities against other shapes etc. Most people only use basic prompts though. But when you realise how advanced it can be then you get some seriously brilliant feedback and it can be of great use. 

I have been lucky enough to have access to this for the past 18 months along with Midjourney. I was on the alpha. So I know a bit about it. If you really want to make ChapGPT useful you can try some commands like below;

replace the () bits with whatever topic/subject you want to talk about. You can add this to roles, shapes, issues etc.

• “Can you explain the concept of a (4-4-2 formation) in simple terms? Summarise the main principles and illustrate with examples to facilitate understanding."
• “I want to learn to (topic). Give me step-by-step instructions on how to learn (skill). Start with the basics and move on to the more difficult stuff. Keep in mind that I’m a beginner.”
• “What are some key terms I should know about (topic)? Make a list with a short and simple definition of each term each time.”
• “I want you to act as an (subject) expert and give me recommendations for (specific question).”
• “Describe and explain with simple words the relationship between (concept 1) and (concept 2).”
• “Define (term) and provide an example which can be used in tactics. The definition should be complete but simple to understand, explain complicated words if there are any.”
• “Act as an expert in (topic). My goal is to learn (skill) as fast as possible. Make a list with the most important things to know that will allow me to master this topic.”
• “I'm just starting to learn (topic). Define the best strategies and tricks for (subject).”
• "I am having difficulty understanding [insert complex concept]. Break it down into simpler terms and provide analogies or examples that can help me grasp the concept more easily."
• You can even go further and use prompts to give you a crash course in learning about tactics should you have zero knowledge
• "I want to learn [tactics]. I am a complete beginner. Create a 30-day learning plan that will help me learn and improve my skills in this area."

You can also use it to collect data and put them in tables/charts etc.

Personally I think it's a brilliant tool when used correctly. Sure not everyone will likely want to use it. But for those who are struggling and don't really understand the concepts of tactics, the relationships roles have, how tactics should function etc it's probably one of the best teachers out there for giving you the basics of everything you need to know. While also you're able to ask it to help solve issues, give feedback, give ideas on setups etc.

[rootcoors]

3 hours ago, Cleon said:

While I don't necessarily disagree here there is a counter point to this.

ChatGPT can be great for understanding the style of play you want to create and give you logical reasonings behind why and how it should function. It can also tell you the relationships between the players and they roles and how they link up. If you really wanted to aswell, you can input the player attributes and it would also give you feedback on them. 

If people really wanted they could use it as an intelligent "assistant manager" and throw ideas around on tactical stuff and get pretty good feedback. Obviously you still have to implement those ideas and make them work. But it's no different than using the forum for feedback etc.

ChatGPT can also give you valuable information on how you can counter other strategies, other shapes, your own vulnerabilities against other shapes etc. Most people only use basic prompts though. But when you realise how advanced it can be then you get some seriously brilliant feedback and it can be of great use. 

I have been lucky enough to have access to this for the past 18 months along with Midjourney. I was on the alpha. So I know a bit about it. If you really want to make ChapGPT useful you can try some commands like below;

replace the () bits with whatever topic/subject you want to talk about. You can add this to roles, shapes, issues etc.

• “Can you explain the concept of a (4-4-2 formation) in simple terms? Summarise the main principles and illustrate with examples to facilitate understanding."
• “I want to learn to (topic). Give me step-by-step instructions on how to learn (skill). Start with the basics and move on to the more difficult stuff. Keep in mind that I’m a beginner.”
• “What are some key terms I should know about (topic)? Make a list with a short and simple definition of each term each time.”
• “I want you to act as an (subject) expert and give me recommendations for (specific question).”
• “Describe and explain with simple words the relationship between (concept 1) and (concept 2).”
• “Define (term) and provide an example which can be used in tactics. The definition should be complete but simple to understand, explain complicated words if there are any.”
• “Act as an expert in (topic). My goal is to learn (skill) as fast as possible. Make a list with the most important things to know that will allow me to master this topic.”
• “I'm just starting to learn (topic). Define the best strategies and tricks for (subject).”
• "I am having difficulty understanding [insert complex concept]. Break it down into simpler terms and provide analogies or examples that can help me grasp the concept more easily."
• You can even go further and use prompts to give you a crash course in learning about tactics should you have zero knowledge
• "I want to learn [tactics]. I am a complete beginner. Create a 30-day learning plan that will help me learn and improve my skills in this area."

You can also use it to collect data and put them in tables/charts etc.

Personally I think it's a brilliant tool when used correctly. Sure not everyone will likely want to use it. But for those who are struggling and don't really understand the concepts of tactics, the relationships roles have, how tactics should function etc it's probably one of the best teachers out there for giving you the basics of everything you need to know. While also you're able to ask it to help solve issues, give feedback, give ideas on setups etc.

Well articulated, spot on this.

[Cleon]

I've done a thread over on Twitter that explains more about how you can use ChatGPT for Football Manager as a reference point/guide or even a smart assistant.

 

Edited May 4, 2023 by Cleon

[rootcoors]

27 minutes ago, Cleon said:

I've done a thread over on Twitter that explains more about how you can use ChatGPT for Football Manager as a reference point/guide or even a smart assistant.

 

I will check it out - already a follower.

[Mars_Blackmon]

It Just got more valuable with ChatGPT4 using Plus. It now has browser access, so it can use real-time data (which includes forums and sites with tips on FM) instead of what it was trained on up to 2021. It also has a data analysis tool that can break down data and even create charts and graphs...

 

In short, you can feed it data from your team so it can give you more accurate suggestions.

Edited September 29, 2023 by Mars_Blackmon

[04texag]

On 29/09/2023 at 17:50, Mars_Blackmon said:

It Just got more valuable with ChatGPT4 using Plus. It now has browser access, so it can use real-time data (which includes forums and sites with tips on FM) instead of what it was trained on up to 2021. It also has a data analysis tool that can break down data and even create charts and graphs...

 

In short, you can feed it data from your team so it can give you more accurate suggestions.

Somehow, I missed this update to chatgpt for it using web browser access.

Keeping that in mind, how would you give chatgpt visibility to a team's starting tactic on FM. Is there a way to export your tactic to a web browser that chatgpt could then view it? Other than pasting an image in a forum or something?

[Mars_Blackmon]

26 minutes ago, 04texag said:

Somehow, I missed this update to chatgpt for it using web browser access.

Keeping that in mind, how would you give chatgpt visibility to a team's starting tactic on FM. Is there a way to export your tactic to a web browser that chatgpt could then view it? Other than pasting an image in a forum or something?

They also just included a feature that let it now read images. I haven’t tried it as it is not fully rolled out so I am not sure how well that would work. 
 

Other than that, you probably could just use a prompt and include your setup.

Edited October 6, 2023 by Mars_Blackmon

[Mars_Blackmon]

Here is a conversation after using the new data analysis feature:

https://chat.openai.com/share/9df83459-0ee3-4d59-b881-7484fabf986b

This is from an FC United of Manchester save.

 

I ended up staggering the CM & DM (CM to left & DM to right) and switching the RW to support. Switched the 2 DC to regular Centerbacks and opted for a advanced Forward over the poacher.

Edited October 7, 2023 by Mars_Blackmon

[Rodpaco]

In terms of roles, a setup that's worked great for me, from the lower leagues all the way up to the highest level, is something like this:

GK: Goalkeeper - D

RB: Full Back - S
RCB: Central Defender - D (or Ball Playing Defender if you have one, but that's rarer in lower leagues)
LCB: Central Defender - D
LB: Full Back - A

RM/AMR: Winger - A
RCM: Deep Lying Playmaker - S (I like to have a playmaker, but a standard Central Midfielder should be fine here as well)
LCM: Central Midfielder - D
LM/AML: Winger - S

AMCL: Shadow Striker - A

STCR: Deep Lying Forward - S (or Complete Forward if you have one, but again, rarer in lower leagues. Target Man should work fine too with the SS nearby and wingers putting in crosses)

You might say this is more of a 4-4-1-1 / 4-2-3-1, but it works very much like a classic 4-4-2. Except that your forwards (I consider the shadow striker to be one) will be much more involved in the build-up and your shadow striker will help defensively. SS + DLF is an amazing pair and them being staggered rather than aligned vertically just ensures that they're not occupying the same spaces, as well as give better options for your wingers to play one-twos with.

Edited October 16, 2023 by Rodpaco

[Fond Foat]

18 hours ago, Rodpaco said:

In terms of roles, a setup that's worked great for me, from the lower leagues all the way up to the highest level, is something like this:

 

Was this inspired by ChatGPT?

[Mars_Blackmon]

On 06/10/2023 at 11:08, 04texag said:

Somehow, I missed this update to chatgpt for it using web browser access.

Keeping that in mind, how would you give chatgpt visibility to a team's starting tactic on FM. Is there a way to export your tactic to a web browser that chatgpt could then view it? Other than pasting an image in a forum or something?

The image function just went live for my account.