I simulated to 2039 on FM23 - my observations

[John Joe O'toole]

12 minutes ago, jack.bookey said:

Ah okay, thank you. 
 

So if I played one season, a player would only ‘miss’ one year of normal development or is that player permanently going to miss out on this patch? 

They can still develop technicals but just not as they should - but if you just play 1 season then when they fix it they will start developing from there 

[JamieTC13]

These are very useful findings but things like this make me not want to play the game lol

[xkvicd]

 

Could you please check it now @LeoFM?

Edited October 25, 2022 by xkvicd

[LeoFM]

4 minutes ago, xkvicd said:

 

Could you please check it now @LeoFM?

I mean, we firstly need to simulate to the future with the new update. @SupraFlush will hopefully be on that soon!

[xkvicd]

Thank you in advance.

[Andrew James]

Quick update on this - latest build has improvements for Attribute balancing, with Technicals now progressing at a much better rate

If you still find any examples of players with extreme attribute profiles (Mental 20s, very low Technicals etc.) then could you start a new thread on the bug tracker, please. 

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, this is a complex area and can affect different save game setups in different ways, so all the info really is greatly appreciated. 

Fewer active leagues will tend to mean fewer high CA players in the long term, but the attribute balancing should be similar regardless of active/inactive league. 

Tweaks to this area are always ongoing and we're aware that a few areas could still be improved, thanks again for the help so far! 

[LeoFM]

If anyone with a decent PC wants to help with testing the new update for player development, I've prepared a new save with exactly the same database setup as one I that already have data from before the update.

Here is the save: https://www.mediafire.com/file/nev7wx9hpv79ler/FM23_Player_Development_Test_%28Oct_25_Minor_Update%29.zip/file

Just holiday until Jan 1st 2039 and then send the save to me. Of course you can also see after about 5 seasons if the wonderkids do have developed technicals and report that as an initial observation.

Any help will be much appreciated 

[MasterFolke]

Im really interested if They solved the newgen fb having poor crossing etc, i dont have much hope they have:(

[diLLa88]

26 minutes ago, LeoFM said:

If anyone with a decent PC wants to help with testing the new update for player development, I've prepared a new save with exactly the same database setup as one I that already have data from before the update.

Here is the save: https://www.mediafire.com/file/nev7wx9hpv79ler/FM23_Player_Development_Test_%28Oct_25_Minor_Update%29.zip/file

Just holiday until Jan 1st 2039 and then send the save to me. Of course you can also see after about 5 seasons if the wonderkids do have developed technicals and report that as an initial observation.

Any help will be much appreciated 

I'll try to do it. Got a decent enough PC at least. Will check how fast it goes first.

[rkobets]

34 minutes ago, LeoFM said:

If anyone with a decent PC wants to help with testing the new update for player development, I've prepared a new save with exactly the same database setup as one I that already have data from before the update.

Here is the save: https://www.mediafire.com/file/nev7wx9hpv79ler/FM23_Player_Development_Test_%28Oct_25_Minor_Update%29.zip/file

Just holiday until Jan 1st 2039 and then send the save to me. Of course you can also see after about 5 seasons if the wonderkids do have developed technicals and report that as an initial observation.

Any help will be much appreciated 

how many hours it will approx. run?

[LeoFM]

6 minutes ago, rkobets said:

how many hours it will approx. run?

Totally depends on the capacity of the PC running the save.

[SupraFlush]

1 hour ago, LeoFM said:

I mean, we firstly need to simulate to the future with the new update. @SupraFlush will hopefully be on that soon!

I'm on it now! I actually missed that they updated the game until now, but I'll run the holiday save until it's done, hopefully tonight but i might need to use the computer which will slow it down a little. We shall see!

[Stevedox]

Totally ruined my save, this. Glad its been pointed out and of course patched, but into my 4th season of a really good save and feel like its derailed it. Not sure what to do.

[SupraFlush]

2 minutes ago, Stevedox said:

Totally ruined my save, this. Glad its been pointed out and of course patched, but into my 4th season of a really good save and feel like its derailed it. Not sure what to do.

Yeah, that's the unfortunate risk when playing a beta and the reason I stopped at season 2 before continuing. We'll see how it looks tomorrow or later tonight at the earliest

[rkobets]

23 minutes ago, LeoFM said:

Totally depends on the capacity of the PC running the save.

will run it overnight to see

 

strange to see quite high GPU load in holiday mode, I have expected mainly CPU utilization

 

[rkobets]

6 minutes ago, SupraFlush said:

Yeah, that's the unfortunate risk when playing a beta and the reason I stopped at season 2 before continuing. We'll see how it looks tomorrow or later tonight at the earliest

did the same, as I sold experience players to give chance to the young generation to play regularly and grow fast : )

[Stevedox]

7 minutes ago, SupraFlush said:

Yeah, that's the unfortunate risk when playing a beta and the reason I stopped at season 2 before continuing. We'll see how it looks tomorrow or later tonight at the earliest

 

Having a bit of a rethink on this, and now quite interested to see how a save works in response. So going to continue on for a season to see if the technical atts move up.  

[SupraFlush]

6 minutes ago, Stevedox said:

 

Having a bit of a rethink on this, and now quite interested to see how a save works in response. So going to continue on for a season to see if the technical atts move up.  

Understandable, the players should develop as "normal" now, but we won't know for sure until we get a couple of years into the game. So if you don't think your players are "ruined" I'd either continue with the save or wait until tomorrow where I'll take a look with @LeoFM at the result from the holidaying. I'll upload the save here as well so if you want to take a look at how the players look then just wait until I upload the file

[lildickgirl]

new update doesn't seem to help
 

Спойлер

 

[eye-switcher]

Thats alittle worrying..did he play very few matches during that period ?

Edited October 25, 2022 by eye-switcher

[SupraFlush]

24 minutes ago, lildickgirl said:

new update doesn't seem to help
 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

He hasn't really developed much at all, so I'm not so sure that we can make any conclusion about those screenshots. But we will see later how it looks, especially when we get newgens in the game as well since it seems to be easier to see on them

[Dotsworthy]

One thing that would be good to see in this simulation is the average age of squads compared to the start of the game, to see if SI fixed the AI's bias towards much older players.

[LeoFM]

Not to promising...

However only one example, we will need to do a more detailed statistical analysis to draw conclusions.

I will do an analysis of player development pre vs post update after work tomorrow, provided there is a new save at 2039. Of course the pre-update simulation at 2039 is available for download at https://www.mediafire.com/file/3nxdxj3kfe8plej/FM23_Player_Development_Test_Top_Leagues_Loaded.fm/file (thx @SupraFlush), so maybe someone will be able to make an analysis earlier than that.

I can see that the setup save file I uploaded for the new simulation has already been downloaded 32 times, so thanks a lot to the people that are actually currently running a simulation.

[SupraFlush]

10 minutes ago, LeoFM said:

Not to promising...

However only one example, we will need to do a more detailed statistical analysis to draw conclusions.

I will do an analysis of player development pre vs post update after work tomorrow, provided there is a new save at 2039. Of course the pre-update simulation at 2039 is available for download at https://www.mediafire.com/file/3nxdxj3kfe8plej/FM23_Player_Development_Test_Top_Leagues_Loaded.fm/file (thx @SupraFlush), so maybe someone will be able to make an analysis earlier than that.

I can see that the setup save file I uploaded for the new simulation has already been downloaded 32 times, so thanks a lot to the people that are actually currently running a simulation.

Mine should probably be ready by then, unless something comes up. I'll post it here when it's ready for anyone who wants to take a look how the players develop.

[jar_11]

I holidayed until September 2027.  Here is my Gavi for comparison and some others...

Spoiler

 

[Sanel]

10 minutes ago, jar_11 said:

I holidayed until September 2027.  Here is my Gavi for comparison and some others...

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Wow. Thank you @jar_11, others for testing and SI! :)

[John Joe O'toole]

10 minutes ago, jar_11 said:

I holidayed until September 2027.  Here is my Gavi for comparison and some others...

  Hide contents

 

That looks alot better!

[Obamayang]

Pleasant surprise from SI! Didn't expect them to get a hotfix out for this so quick

[jar_11]

Made it to 2030  (going to stop here I think), updates on a few players.  Also included some top regens...still have issues finding full backs who can cross, best I found was the 3rd image below and there really aren't many with crossing above 11.

 

Spoiler

 

[SeaCarrot]

Certainly looks better! Good work SI.

Is there any difference to an active/playable league and the view only leagues in terms of player dev? 

Maybe i'll run this sim and pick a couple players from both and compare. 

[jar_11]

20 minutes ago, SeaCarrot said:

Certainly looks better! Good work SI.

Is there any difference to an active/playable league and the view only leagues in terms of player dev? 

Maybe i'll run this sim and pick a couple players from both and compare. 

I had big 5 leagues loaded as playable so hard to find wonderkids who didn't transfer into them now.

[diLLa88]

I tried to progress the holidaying this night, but the game crashed while only being in september 2022. So no progress from my end unfortunately.

[Andrew James]

14 hours ago, jar_11 said:

I holidayed until September 2027.  Here is my Gavi for comparison and some others...

 

Glad to see these improvements match up with what we've had internally

10 hours ago, jar_11 said:

still have issues finding full backs who can cross

Yeah unfortunately this is one area we're aware can still be improved. It's a particularly difficult one due to the weighting the attribute has for that position, but it's definitely still on our radar and we'll keep trying to make a breakthrough. Another similar case is Finishing for some forward players.

Worth a reminder that it is still intentional for there to be *some* players who are good despite not having the best Technical attributes, and we don't want all newgen profiles trending towards the same attribute patterns. 

3 hours ago, diLLa88 said:

I tried to progress the holidaying this night, but the game crashed while only being in september 2022

On a separate note, if you have the last save before this crash I'm sure our Crash support team would appreciate if you could upload it and log a post on our bug tracker

https://community.sigames.com/bugtracker/football-manager-2023-early-access-beta-bugs-tracker/752_crash-technical-issues-and-game-performance-support-portal/

Thanks again all! 

[diLLa88]

6 minutes ago, Andrew James said:

 

Glad to see these improvements match up with what we've had internally

Yeah unfortunately this is one area we're aware can still be improved. It's a particularly difficult one due to the weighting the attribute has for that position, but it's definitely still on our radar and we'll keep trying to make a breakthrough. Another similar case is Finishing for some forward players.

Worth a reminder that it is still intentional for there to be *some* players who are good despite not having the best Technical attributes, and we don't want all newgen profiles trending towards the same attribute patterns. 

On a separate note, if you have the last save before this crash I'm sure our Crash support team would appreciate if you could upload it and log a post on our bug tracker

https://community.sigames.com/bugtracker/football-manager-2023-early-access-beta-bugs-tracker/752_crash-technical-issues-and-game-performance-support-portal/

Thanks again all! 

I believe it's more of a hardware problem on my end. When i turn off my monitor, the game often crashes with a directx crash error. I always have the issue that I often get a black screen when I turn on the monitor again. 

Not quite sure what causes it, but it's not really related to FM, as it also happens with different applications. 

[Proffa]

Glad to see SI respond quickly. Looking forward to the release.

[rkobets]

4 hours ago, diLLa88 said:

I tried to progress the holidaying this night, but the game crashed while only being in september 2022. So no progress from my end unfortunately.

mine speed is low, I am only in 2028 with that save

it took 1Hour40Min for 1 year to proceed

my PC/CPU is average I712700H (Laptop)

[albertocerdeira.4]

hace 40 minutos, Andrew James dijo:

 

Glad to see these improvements match up with what we've had internally

Yeah unfortunately this is one area we're aware can still be improved. It's a particularly difficult one due to the weighting the attribute has for that position, but it's definitely still on our radar and we'll keep trying to make a breakthrough. Another similar case is Finishing for some forward players.

Worth a reminder that it is still intentional for there to be *some* players who are good despite not having the best Technical attributes, and we don't want all newgen profiles trending towards the same attribute patterns. 

Lots of thanks Andrew,

 

Related to this, do you have planned to solve this before the release?

 

I remember last year that in a save that I had until 2050 (yes I'm crazy), that all the best wingers in the game had less than 15 finishing at all cases, and all the best full backs the same issue with crossing.

 

I suppose that it is not intentional, and could be great if you solve this because I remember previous FMs where there was a bigger "diversity" between the atributes of the newgens.

 

I appreciate your answer and best regards

[DarJ]

1 hour ago, diLLa88 said:

I believe it's more of a hardware problem on my end. When i turn off my monitor, the game often crashes with a directx crash error. I always have the issue that I often get a black screen when I turn on the monitor again. 

Not quite sure what causes it, but it's not really related to FM, as it also happens with different applications. 

It’s the same issue with laptops when you put them to sleep with the game on, it tends to crash when you wake it up and start playing again 

[LeoFM]

 

[LeoFM]

As @SupraFlush's game unfortunately crashed during simulation today I won't have any data to base an analysis on. (unless someone else has simulated to 2039 already)
That will hopefully come tomorrow though.

Most reports I've seen so far indicate that SI have indeed fixed the issue with player development, so huge props to them for fixing it way quicker than I was expecting. Only thing left to do is to confirm this with a statistical analysis. 

I think we can all get on with our saves without having to worry about player development being broken long term 

[michael21]

10 hours ago, Andrew James said:

 

Glad to see these improvements match up with what we've had internally

Yeah unfortunately this is one area we're aware can still be improved. It's a particularly difficult one due to the weighting the attribute has for that position, but it's definitely still on our radar and we'll keep trying to make a breakthrough. Another similar case is Finishing for some forward players.

Worth a reminder that it is still intentional for there to be *some* players who are good despite not having the best Technical attributes, and we don't want all newgen profiles trending towards the same attribute patterns. 

On a separate note, if you have the last save before this crash I'm sure our Crash support team would appreciate if you could upload it and log a post on our bug tracker

https://community.sigames.com/bugtracker/football-manager-2023-early-access-beta-bugs-tracker/752_crash-technical-issues-and-game-performance-support-portal/

Thanks again all! 

Thanks for the quick turnaround and giving transparency on Newgen attribute development- from SI's perspective. These issues (Like the crossing development on Fullbacks) have been an issue for years. I've mainly gone with Inverted Wing Backs, so I don't have to deal with some of the effects in long term saves. Always appreciate the Team's response on the forums, truly a rarity in today's Game development world. 

[noobcake]

The attribute imbalance is fixed. It now behaves the same as FM22

However, players now develop even less than before. They are down ~12.5 points of CA at 25 years old compared to players at game start

23.0.5 spreadsheet

23 beta release spreadsheet

22 spreadsheet

save game 2050

Edited October 27, 2022 by noobcake
clarifying what being down CA means

[diLLa88]

7 minutes ago, noobcake said:

The attribute imbalance is fixed. It now behaves the same as FM22

However, players now develop even less than before. They are down ~12.5 points of CA at 25 years old

23.0.5 spreadsheet

23 beta release spreadsheet

22 spreadsheet

save game 2050

I responded in a different thread which seems related to this.

CA development is directly related with first team playtime. AI managers and AI squad building is highly favoured towards older players who have a high CA and that does not drop off as much as it used to do in older FM versions. Therefore young talent do not get enough exposure to playtime which significantly hampers their development and also reputation. Young talents are often signed and then simply not being used -> therefore no CA development.

This is also the reason why national teams are full with old players that are just not replaced by young talent as often happens in real life.

In my opinion old players should fall-off quicker whenever certain mental/physical attributes are not up to scratch (think: determination, work rate, natural fitness, etc.). Also AI teams should use young talents more in easier/cup games or as a substitute for the sake of development, this is simply not happening enough.

[Slippy_]

1 minute ago, diLLa88 said:

I responded in a different thread which seems related to this.

CA development is directly related with first team playtime. AI managers and AI squad building is highly favoured towards older players who have a high CA and that does not drop off as much as it used to do in older FM versions. Therefore young talent do not get enough exposure to playtime which significantly hampers their development and also reputation. Young talents are often signed and then simply not being used -> therefore no CA development.

This is also the reason why national teams are full with old players that are just not replaced by young talent as often happens in real life.

In my opinion old players should fall-off quicker whenever certain mental/physical attributes are not up to scratch (think: determination, work rate, natural fitness, etc.). Also AI teams should use young talents more in easier/cup games or as a substitute for the sake of development, this is simply not happening enough.

It is a real balancing act to get it right. In FM21 players dropped off pretty fast and developed quite young which also skewed it. If players drop off faster it creates a more 'dynamic' world where players have shorter lifespans but it means that FM players often sell on their players before they would reach their real life 'peak'. Personally I didnt like that players dropped off fast in FM21. However the current method is also not working correctly.

Maybe a solution is to increase the development for non first team football/training up to 25 (for example) and then the benifits of that tail off after 25 with only first team football providing further development. Of course I have no idea if that would work, how long it would take to put in place etc.

Hopefully we get a response from the devs saying they are looking into this

 

[diLLa88]

3 minutes ago, Slippy_ said:

It is a real balancing act to get it right. In FM21 players dropped off pretty fast and developed quite young which also skewed it. If players drop off faster it creates a more 'dynamic' world where players have shorter lifespans but it means that FM players often sell on their players before they would reach their real life 'peak'. Personally I didnt like that players dropped off fast in FM21. However the current method is also not working correctly.

Maybe a solution is to increase the development for non first team football/training up to 25 (for example) and then the benifits of that tail off after 25 with only first team football providing further development. Of course I have no idea if that would work, how long it would take to put in place etc.

Hopefully we get a response from the devs saying they are looking into this

 

Old players that are still able to perform on the highest level all have one thing in common -> they completely live for their sport and take care of their body, and are also not prone to injuries during their carreer. Therefore I would link it to their mental/physical attributes to provide a more dynamic approach to this. You will then have some players falling off fast at 30+ and also the very determined professional ones being able to perform until their late 30's or even 40's like Zlatan.

Perhaps this is already somewhat the case in the game, but clearly not enough as all the current good players all stay on top until they are 35+ and are all preferred over the younger talents.

[noobcake]

29 minutes ago, diLLa88 said:

I responded in a different thread which seems related to this.

CA development is directly related with first team playtime. AI managers and AI squad building is highly favoured towards older players who have a high CA and that does not drop off as much as it used to do in older FM versions. Therefore young talent do not get enough exposure to playtime which significantly hampers their development and also reputation. Young talents are often signed and then simply not being used -> therefore no CA development.

This is also the reason why national teams are full with old players that are just not replaced by young talent as often happens in real life.

In my opinion old players should fall-off quicker whenever certain mental/physical attributes are not up to scratch (think: determination, work rate, natural fitness, etc.). Also AI teams should use young talents more in easier/cup games or as a substitute for the sake of development, this is simply not happening enough.

I still have a couple of concerns though. The CA of 15, 16, and 17 year olds in this patch is a bit lower on average than last patch. I doubt they're getting much play time.

Both FM23 results are quite a bit lower at 15-17 than in early FM22 when my first test was which probably kickstarts the issue in the first place. Admittedly they were wildly overdeveloped compared to RL but if that is being nerfed I guess we need more compensation mechanisms

Edited October 27, 2022 by noobcake

[Slippy_]

9 minutes ago, noobcake said:

I still have a couple of concerns though. The CA of 15, 16, and 17 year olds in this patch is a bit lower on average than last patch. I doubt they're getting much play time.

Both FM23 results are quite a bit lower at 15-17 than in early FM22 when my first test was which probably kickstarts the issue in the first place. Admittedly they were wildly overdeveloped compared to RL but if that is being nerfed I guess we need more compensation mechanisms

I dont really have a problem with under developed teenagers, it always annoyed who in earlier FMs you could pick up multiple teenagers from South Africa and slot them straight into your first team. However if they are slow to develop/start behind irl players then they need ways to devlop outside of straight up first team football. Training/reserve/youth football should have more of an impact earlier in a players career, perhaps even beyond the teenage years/21.

Still, that sounds like a pipe dream to get sorted for the release in early Nov so either this doesnt get fixed or we get a band aid solution for full launch. Have to hope this gets fixed before they run out of dev time for FM23 and move onto FM24.

[DarJ]

1 hour ago, noobcake said:

The attribute imbalance is fixed. It now behaves the same as FM22

However, players now develop even less than before. They are down ~12.5 points of CA at 25 years old compared to players at game start

23.0.5 spreadsheet

23 beta release spreadsheet

22 spreadsheet

save game 2050

We just have to accept that it’s going to take a bit of time to get the sweet spot. They way players used to develop didn’t change for years so now that it’s a bit different it’s normal for it to take a bit of tweaking to get it right.

it may mean that they have to completely change how the AI pick their players which will also change how they scout and sign players etc.

[abcdf]

2 ore fa, noobcake ha scritto:

The attribute imbalance is fixed. It now behaves the same as FM22

However, players now develop even less than before. They are down ~12.5 points of CA at 25 years old compared to players at game start

23.0.5 spreadsheet

23 beta release spreadsheet

22 spreadsheet

save game 2050

Seems to me that technical attributes are still lagging behind with respect to mental and physical honestly. Even though the negative difference is lower after the update, there is still a negative difference with every single technical attribute at the moment.

[albertocerdeira.4]

Taking a deep look into the data I see a pattern that i dont know if it is something wanted by SI that the newgens are players much more physical than technical than real players. I dont agree with this but maybe it is something intentional.