A Closer Look at Training.

[isuckatfm]

Aha! Now I never thought of editing this way, but this certainly does clear things up. Having done a few more tests, lower ability players are definitely given physical attributes over technical ones, which is pretty much true to real life. The more I learn about this game, the more I see the depth in the programming - a really wonderful game, even if (or maybe because) it is so complicated.

It has nothing to do with the complex game recognising lower ability players requiring physical attributes exceeding others. CA leads attributes and the game when converting editor values to in game values at the beginning of save game creation, adjusts accordingly in a uniform manner

Acceleration/Pace/Agility/Balance => +/- X

All other attributes => +/- Y

With the values of X and Y as well as the adjustment being positive or negative dependent on the difference between the input attributes for a given CA versus what the coded model allows for a given CA.

There will be slight variations in this depending on the values put into a database via the editor, but generally CA leading attributes is how it functions with respect to 'correcting' a user database player who has attributes that 'break' the model rules.

An example

Editor:-

50 CA

Acc/pace/Agility/Balance = 1

All others = 10

(weaker foot very important so set to 20 as necessary for right foot, 1 for left foot which will not be autocorrected)

In game:-

Acc/pace/Agility/Balance = 2

All others = 13

(jumping the anomaly which increased to 15)

As an educated guess I would say a 40 CA player with weaker foot = 1 would produce the 10 for everything, 1 for Acc/Pace/Agility/balance in game. Off the top of my head I remember it being a roughly 3:1 ratio for every 10 CA points in the autocorrect (interestingly in game on 08 the sum of attribute gains for a change in CA usually mapped to this ratio as well, don’t know about 09 though).

In my head this explains it pretty well, whether or not it makes sense to you is another kettle of fish.

[Casta2]

They can be unhappy with their workload but keep going. you raise their morale in other ways. Workrate and determination affect how happy they are with workload.

I'm not sure if anyone else has mentioned this but having read through the majority of this thread I was inspired to do my own experiments (in FM2008 unfortunately) based on workload tolerance and it seems the only thing to affect how happy/unhappy the players are with their overall workload is the individual players professionalism.

In my experiments I've discovered that the following are approximately correct, where the first column is the players professionalism stat and the 2nd column being the number of clicks along the overall workload slider (where 131 is the maximum no. of clicks)

20 = 131 - (Very heavy)

15 = 121 - (Very heavy)

10 = 115 - (Heavy)

5 = 104 - (Medium)

Perhaps someone can confirm this with FM2009.

I'm investigating further into the effects of fatigue, but aside from a few sprints related groin strains, my (youth) players dont appear to be experiencing any adverse affects. (I have them set to max on aerobic atm.) Although I'll probably leave it until the end of my current season to confirm or otherwise.

I would add however, that I have 3 players who have issues with the high amount of fitness training but I'm unable to locate the stat/attribute that affects this - any suggestions (i thought natural fitness, workrate or stamina but it appears not to be the case.)

[phnompenhandy]

Good work casta; we've noted that professionalism plays a key role in training development, but you've added a useful insight. Keep reporting on your findings mate!

[Ceching You Out]

A secondary use for this knowledge would be to backwards-calculate your player's professionalism range. Well done!

I'm not sure if anyone else has mentioned this but having read through the majority of this thread I was inspired to do my own experiments (in FM2008 unfortunately) based on workload tolerance and it seems the only thing to affect how happy/unhappy the players are with their overall workload is the individual players professionalism.

In my experiments I've discovered that the following are approximately correct, where the first column is the players professionalism stat and the 2nd column being the number of clicks along the overall workload slider (where 131 is the maximum no. of clicks)

20 = 131 - (Very heavy)

15 = 121 - (Very heavy)

10 = 115 - (Heavy)

5 = 104 - (Medium)

Perhaps someone can confirm this with FM2009.

I'm investigating further into the effects of fatigue, but aside from a few sprints related groin strains, my (youth) players dont appear to be experiencing any adverse affects. (I have them set to max on aerobic atm.) Although I'll probably leave it until the end of my current season to confirm or otherwise.

I would add however, that I have 3 players who have issues with the high amount of fitness training but I'm unable to locate the stat/attribute that affects this - any suggestions (i thought natural fitness, workrate or stamina but it appears not to be the case.)

[killface]

Maybe determination is the key stat for the physical training? That could make sense.

[woggle007]

I thought that ambition was a key attribute for development. Could this be the missing stat?

[BaYa]

players with low professionalism are never happy with training schedules

[SFraser]

It would be interesting to know if there are any technical repercussions such as reduced attribute distribution or increased risk of injury in these scenarios because as far as I am aware players that are "unhappy with workload/level" etc. simply suffer from a minor negative modifier on their generic morale that is relatively easy to manage.

Catafan did the testing work that shows that Ambition and Professionalism are the key attributes in determining a players CA increase from match experience, all other factors being equal. If I remember correctly the variation in importance between the two for CA gain was negligable.

Interestingly however these hidden mental attributes pop up in other rather important areas. Professionalism as indicated here showing a players tolerance for Training Intensity, and Ambition very much being involved in a players happiness at any particular club. I also have a strong suspicion that all hidden mental attributes, including Professionalism and Ambition, play significant roles in Teamtalks, Motivation and pitch behaviour.

Maybe determination is the key stat for the physical training? That could make sense.

It has been shown that non-hidden Mental attributes such as Workrate play a non-negligable role in Training. I couldn't begin to give you exact details but certain mental attributes such as Workrate and Determination correspond to increased Training Levels over players with low Determination and Workrate for the same Training Category Intensity. This would logically work out at increased rates of attribute changes amongst those Categories, but it also works out at increased rates of CA gain.

I have a somewhat tentative theory that does not refute the above understanding but looks at it from a different perspective.

Instead of Ambition and Professionalism and Workrate and Determination directly influencing CA gain, what they do is directly influence player motivation and on-pitch performances in a significant way which when combined to quality of opponent and player current ability level produces the rate of CA gain for players. This does not contradict known established relationships, but it throws into the mix quality of football being played and quality of performances which we know is important in CA gain, especially for youngsters.

It may be overcomplicating things, but the idea does take together all known influences on CA gain in a logical and rather realistic manner.

[killface]

I wasn't saying that determination increased training levels or anything, I meant that it might be what determines if they are happy with their physical training, since Casta said it wasn't professionalism.

Sorry my first post was pretty unclear.

[phd_angel]

Quite interesting and insightful thread. I've just created a new regime matrix crossing age (early, mid, late career) with position (defense, mid, attack), thus resulting in 9 training programs.

However, there role of the couch team was not addressed in this thread! How much do they affect the training schedule, and how do their attributes (motivation, man management) affect training?...

Thanks.

[emphyrio]

On a related issue - I have just taken over Venezia, and I am only allowed three coaches. I'm planning to use Darkstarr's schedules, but when I click on "auto assign coaches" there are some kinds of training which don't happen at all (i.e. zero star) because I have so few coaches?

Should I overload the coaches so that all three do a bit of everything?

[tcoleman1]

I have a question regarding some of my players drop in stats. Neither of these players are old, in fact one is 27 and the other is 21, the stats they have dropped in are key stats for their position which are covered heavily in their training schedule, so why are they dropping?

[Altazar]

SFraser, to answer that - unhappiness at a training schedule does not seem to result in either injuries or the efficiency of the training. In fact, injuries seem to be a function of (a) in direct proportion to by how much a player's strength training is beyond the level of 7 notches, and (b) in direct proportion to by how much a player's aerobic training is beyond the level of 7 notches, and © in reverse proportion to the stamina of the player, and (d) in reverse proportion to the quality and number of physical coaches (e.g. given 2 7* aerobic and 2 7* strength coaches, players seem able to take an extra notch of both strength and aerobic training without ANY injuries), and (e) in direct proportion to tiredness (if a player is tired after several matches, they seem more prone to pick an injury in training no matter what).

Once we set the physical training at the maximum "low likelihood of injury" level, the training schedule intensity does not seem to lead to any injuries. Obviously, a highly determined and highly professional player stays "happy" even with very hard training. Strangely though, unless his workrate is above 16, the gain in attributes from very hard and hard training seems to be the same. So, I guess, workrate determines the limit of pushing non-physical training?

[JackDavies]

Reading the 1st post, did anyone make a download including those schedules? If so can someone link me

[SFraser]

Reading the 1st post, did anyone make a download including those schedules? If so can someone link me

There are no schedules for download in this thread. This thread is an attempt to understand exactly how training works and what all the implications of training mean.

In fact, injuries seem to be a function of (a) in direct proportion to by how much a player's strength training is beyond the level of 7 notches, and (b) in direct proportion to by how much a player's aerobic training is beyond the level of 7 notches, and © in reverse proportion to the stamina of the player, and (d) in reverse proportion to the quality and number of physical coaches (e.g. given 2 7* aerobic and 2 7* strength coaches, players seem able to take an extra notch of both strength and aerobic training without ANY injuries), and (e) in direct proportion to tiredness (if a player is tired after several matches, they seem more prone to pick an injury in training no matter what).

That is both very interesting and very logical. Do you have any screenshots that could show examples in action? This would really help to clarify and prove the working details of what is a big deal when it comes to the game.

So, I guess, workrate determines the limit of pushing non-physical training?

Workrate is an attribute I spotted having a correlation with training as well. It seems that the attributes Ambition, Professionalism, Workrate and to a lesser extent Determination all play a logical role in the results of training, which suggests that not only is this game as deep as most individuals would think, but also that some other attributes may function to modify training in other ways.

Generally speaking, with the observations made in this thread it is entireally fair to correlate positive attributes with positive training results and positive performance results, which is obvious in real life but not necessarilly expected in a game.

If you have the time I would not mind some further ideas on injuries related to training or indeed any other mental/hidden mental relationships to training progress.

[lam]

SFraser,

Have you made any comparisions about injuries and the jadeness (found on FM scout)?

I was posting in another thread recently and this came to mind there too. It was a thread on what 'match fitness' and 'superb fiteness' meant. Though these are often shown, jadedness is always different for each player.

Using FM scount might give some ideas about any correlations that may exist.

LAM

[cr4z3d]

I've read only part of the thread, and it seems that you guys recommend having a highly specialized training regimen for young players. Wouldn't it be more practical to go ahead and give them intense training geared towards improving physical attributes (at the same time you could also let some of your older players with high determination tutor them). So when they reach 19-20 and have improved their pace/acceleration (which seems to be really important in all types of players), you can then bring the aerobic/strength training to medium and pile on more technical/mental geared training.

Has anyone tried this?

[Comedybegs]

Hi! Id just like to say great thread guys! Iv always wondered about the multiple facets of training and player development and this thread certainly answers a lot of my queries!

I do however have one question, which was mentioned by someone before but not answered or at least not answered to a level where I understood!

I 'understand' that the arrows in the individuals training screen represent how much effort and work the player is putting into each of the areas you are asking him to train. So if for example has a orange or red arrow under tactics, how could I best remedy this to make it yellow/green, or if indeed whether it really matters what colour it is? Just to clarify I am not talking about the arrows by the side of the players progression in their attributes but the ones in the individuals training schedule 'area'.

Cheers in advance!

[vcpinheiro14]

my player has a training progress bar of strength on the maximum of the graph. but my strength training distribution in not even on high

if i put the strength schedule on intensive my training progress bar won´t go higher (because it is in the maximum) but will this result on a better gain of strength attributes?

[Comedybegs]

my player has a training progress bar of strength on the maximum of the graph. but my strength training distribution in not even on high

if i put the strength schedule on intensive my training progress bar won´t go higher (because it is in the maximum) but will this result on a better gain of strength attributes?

Once the bar cant go any higher, I believe it means that whilst the total attribute gain will be the same over a certain period of time, the more intensive the training the earlier the actual attribute gain will be.

For example if you have a defender on 19 clicks for defending in one save and then maximum clicks in another then they will both get the same gain in a season (or however long it is) but the max clicks player will get to these attributes sooner say January instead of April. Or at least thats how I understand it from a post by Gadongta, either earlier in this thread or a different one on training, and he seems to know his stuff. Therefore if my post doesnt make sense I suggest you read that!

[Drinky_08]

I've read only part of the thread, and it seems that you guys recommend having a highly specialized training regimen for young players. Wouldn't it be more practical to go ahead and give them intense training geared towards improving physical attributes (at the same time you could also let some of your older players with high determination tutor them). So when they reach 19-20 and have improved their pace/acceleration (which seems to be really important in all types of players), you can then bring the aerobic/strength training to medium and pile on more technical/mental geared training.

Has anyone tried this?

I awalys give players u-19 high training in strength and aerobic to improve their physical stats as this is when they will increase the most in them, and usualy regens and young players tend to have poor stats in these area's.

Also I give them high in another area that is vital to there postion or in the case of full backs and box to box mids, i try to balance out two. So for example a defender would have high/intensive on defending while with a fullback defending and set peices would be balanced (to improve crosses, as i love fullbacks whipping in crosses).

[Comedybegs]

Iv just done a little bit of testing myself and I imagine what I have found has been mentioned before but I thought I may as well mention it because I cant be arsed to re-read the thread to make sure!

Professionalism determines whether a player will be happy/unhappy with his training schedule. I am not sure on the exact values but it appears that at 20 you can train your players as hard as you like whether they are seasoned pro's or youths. I am 99% sure on this.

Determination determines how well you players perform your training schedule. For example in 2 months worth of training for new players, the only ones that have reached the last progression line are those with a Determination of 16+. Those with a Determination of 13 or less take an extra month to reach the same level (in the overall training progess graph) normally being shy of the last progression line in the training levels in one category (i.e. Set pieces). None of the players I tested had a determination of 14-15 so I dont know whether they fall above or below the last progression line. Im not a 100% sure on this but this has happened in a quite a few cases so its probably more that just co-incidence.

I am also running another test on youths to see which of the 4 main training attributes (mentioned in this thread) increase CA gain the quickest and whilst I dont have any iron clad results as of yet 3 months in, it appears Work Rate has the largest affect, gaining on average 3 extra CA Points. Therefore over a year this would mean an increase in around 12 CA points more for a player high in this attribute (20 in the test) and low in the others (5 in the test). The biggest gain overall (+12 extra CA points) so far has been with a combination of ambition, professionalism and WR all being high. However the results dont seem consistent even though they have played the same games and not been injured. This could mean something else has a large affect on CA gain or it is just an anomoly (sp).

[phnompenhandy]

Iv just done a little bit of testing myself and I imagine what I have found has been mentioned before but I thought I may as well mention it because I cant be arsed to re-read the thread to make sure!

Professionalism determines whether a player will be happy/unhappy with his training schedule. I am not sure on the exact values but it appears that at 20 you can train your players as hard as you like whether they are seasoned pro's or youths. I am 99% sure on this.

That's interesting CB. I've been following this thread from the get-go but also can't be ar5 reading it all over again; I think it's in here somewhere that it's been shown that whether a player is happy or unhappy with his training load/schedule, it makes naff-all difference. Therefore, the 'professionalism' attribute must also affect rate/degree of progress along with ambition, determination and work-rate.

I'm assuming in this department nothing's changed for FM10 too.

[vusalgustav]

Is there any changes to the training engine in FM2010? Or is it still as below?

• PA how good can a player be

• CA how good a player is

• CA can be increased up to PA

• CA increase can be achieved though competitive game playing

• CA distribution is done through training

[GADONGTA]

Is there any changes to the training engine in FM2010? Or is it still as below?

• PA how good can a player be

• CA how good a player is

• CA can be increased up to PA

• CA increase can be achieved though competitive game playing

• CA distribution is done through training

Not much has been changed, except for the "graphical limit". The 13 level historically will get your training level to achieve exactly the last progression line. For the new FM2010, this line has raised to 14. A side effect of this "graphical change" is that you will need to make training schedules with HIGHER TPO than previous versions. (damm those who made the new skin)

PS: I was still trying on the demo though but when I told my friends who have the CD, they noticed this minor change!

[SFraser]

Is there any changes to the training engine in FM2010? Or is it still as below?

• PA how good can a player be

• CA how good a player is

• CA can be increased up to PA

• CA increase can be achieved though competitive game playing

• CA distribution is done through training

I would imagine that considering how solid and functional the system was, despite the difficulty in understanding it's nuances, that any significant change to the underlying system would only come with a complete overhaul of training.

I don't currently have FM10 but it does not appear that there is any indication of a significant overhaul from reading these forums.

That's interesting CB. I've been following this thread from the get-go but also can't be ar5 reading it all over again; I think it's in here somewhere that it's been shown that whether a player is happy or unhappy with his training load/schedule, it makes naff-all difference. Therefore, the 'professionalism' attribute must also affect rate/degree of progress along with ambition, determination and work-rate.

I'm assuming in this department nothing's changed for FM10 too.

A players unhappiness with his training schedule does not seem to make any noticeable difference to his training, but it does apply a regular negative penalty to his morale which means that without positive bonuses to morale from events his morale will continue to drop.

However if his happiness is related to his professionalism then there is a correlation between his happiness and CA gain but not a direct link. By this I mean that happiness does not effect CA gain, but is based off of the same attribute as CA gain. Thus you can possibly use happiness in training as a judge as to how professional a player is and how quickly he will develop under good conditions.

This means of judgement is only true if what Comedybags says is also true, so I would keep it in mind and look out for it and consider it, but not use it as a law and make any large decisions based upon it. However it does make sense.

Professionalism, Ambition, Determination and Work-Rate all influence the rate at which CA is gained or lost from ingame situations. A poster that contributed to this thread produced the results of a comprehensive investigation into what attributes define CA increase rates under CA gain factors. His findings were that Professionalism and Ambition both have a significant positive impact on the rate at which a player will gain CA, with Determination and Work-Rate have a much lower but not insignificant positive impact. Unfortunately no one has yet done a comparable investigation into the impact of Age which is obviously huge.

The general as-close-to-facts as can be known without access to the code formulae is that Ambition and Professionalism are the key factors in how much CA is gained is how little is lost per CA change event. Determination and Work Rate are insignificant in comparison to maximum Ambition/Professionalism scores but are still significant in their own right, and grow more significant as Ambition and Professionalism diminish in size.

Age is hugely important in the game and works as an increasing negative modifier on CA gain untill such time as managing a player becomes a question of managing CA loss rather than CA gain. It also does not apply equally to all attribute categories and this has a big gameplay impact. It is quite simple in process but I find it rather hard to explain.

Imagine a single graph with CA gain on the left axis and Age on the bottom axis. Then imagine 3 curves starting at zero CA gain and ending at zero CA gain with the same height of each peak. Each curve represents an attribute category so at a certain age they all gain the same CA and they all have the same rate of increase of CA gain and same rate of loss of CA gain. The difference between the three curves is that they start at different Ages, so a player at Age 22 is at his peak of Physical CA gain while he is getting close to the peak of Technical CA gain and is only half way towards the peak of Mental CA gain. A player at Age 32 is at his peak of Mental CA gain, just past the peak of Technical CA gain and is rapidly dropping down the otherside of the peak of his Physical CA gain.

What this means is that even if you managed training so that no category was favoured and all attributes were treated equally, a player would gain more Physical CA when he is young and gain more Mental CA when he is older.

But it is more than this. It means that when a player is older and losing CA from physical attributes, that CA will go into mental attributes. This is where the whole "older players will decline physically but improve mentally" comes from. If you keep overall CA stable later in a players career and do not favour any attributes or categories above others, then his Physical CA will migrate to his Mental CA by pure mathematics and game mechanics.

Training is like tactics in this respect. If you don't start off customising every minor detail and just leave things be and try not interfere then your team will play solid, generic football while your players will improve and decline naturally.

One final point that is important to mention is that the basic effects of attributes are known in their terms of power in certain contexts, but not exactly how they function. It is known that Professionalism has a huge impact on CA gain, but it is not known if that is a direct correlation between attribute and CA gain or because of indirect functions like a player performing well on a regular basis, applying himself to training, reacting well to teamtalks, getting sent off less, getting involved in dangerous and injury-prone challenges less, and actually behaving properly.

Does a young player with high Professionalism gain more CA simply because he has high Professionalism, or because he achieves solid ratings on the pitch, keeps his head about him and plays well no matter the skill level of the opponent? I would not be so keen to infer a direct correlation as fact when you consider the amount of other variables these attributes influence. It may be a case of a large amount of indirect variables stemming from these attributes are working exactly as they should in a highly complex football simulator.

These things will not be easy to know or prove one way or the other.

[ZdlR]

Does a young player with high Professionalism gain more CA simply because he has high Professionalism, or because he achieves solid ratings on the pitch, keeps his head about him and plays well no matter the skill level of the opponent? I would not be so keen to infer a direct correlation as fact when you consider the amount of other variables these attributes influence. It may be a case of a large amount of indirect variables stemming from these attributes are working exactly as they should in a highly complex football simulator.

These things will not be easy to know or prove one way or the other.

I recall vague memories that this thread indicated that performances and natural aging contribute to the conversion of unfilfulled PA into CA, and that the training regimes we can tinker with shape where that CA is 'spent'.

Running with this assumption, I think a middle ground is conceivable whereby the personality traits, both known - determination, workrate - and unknown - professionalism, ambition - influence performance on the pitch but also contribute to the effort expended in the training regime. A low workrate player will put less effort in during training, not just on the pitch and this will hamper his development over time. In training this could manifest itself as surplus PA, which would otherwise be converted to CA, being carried over to a new month because of a lack of effort. Or it could see an artificially high mental gain because the player concentrated more on tactics than all the heavy lifting you were asking him to do.

As for testing this, three saves all starting on the 1st of a month. Take a number of players of a very similar age but with polarised mental traits and proceed through the month a) without giving them any first team football, b) playing them but in a losing tactic with a role and duty contrary to their preferred set up, and c) playing them in a winning tactic with roles and duties that they are either best suited for or in aspects you would like to see them improve.

Sadly, as I prefer to just play the game, I don't have much inclination to perform these tests!

[SFraser]

I recall vague memories that this thread indicated that performances and natural aging contribute to the conversion of unfilfulled PA into CA, and that the training regimes we can tinker with shape where that CA is 'spent'.

Running with this assumption, I think a middle ground is conceivable whereby the personality traits, both known - determination, workrate - and unknown - professionalism, ambition - influence performance on the pitch but also contribute to the effort expended in the training regime. A low workrate player will put less effort in during training, not just on the pitch and this will hamper his development over time. In training this could manifest itself as surplus PA, which would otherwise be converted to CA, being carried over to a new month because of a lack of effort. Or it could see an artificially high mental gain because the player concentrated more on tactics than all the heavy lifting you were asking him to do.

That does make the most sense all things considered. Attributes impact CA gain and impact pitch performances, but pitch performances do not impact CA gain.

However the reason I raise the issue is because during the course of my playing time I have seen situations where the most logical cause for changes or relationship between changes in attributes and CA gain is indeed events on the pitch.

Perhaps it just me hoping that a player that takes multiple free-kicks during a match actually becomes better at free-kicks.

Sadly, as I prefer to just play the game, I don't have much inclination to perform these tests!

Nor do I. Although multiple quantities of ingame observations of behaviour do eventually start to stack up much like test cases.

Only solid testing of well defined questions can provide proper answers, but failing that a good quantity of affirmation for a proposed relationship will probably do for most people. Myself included.

[Saints Forever]

Hey could anyone please give the full details of traing schedules please etc: Ball conrol improves the playes dribbling, techniue, first touch etc what else does it improve? i would like to no all of the training shcedules if anybody no's thanks

[Comedybegs]

"This means of judgement is only true if what Comedybegs says is also true, so I would keep it in mind and look out for it and consider it, but not use it as a law and make any large decisions based upon it. However it does make sense."

From what I have found, when Professionalism is at 20 (and Im fairly sure 19) who can train at maximum workload without the player becoming unhappy. Iv found this in over 50 players so while it is not definite, I think its fairly certain. As you can imagine from this point there is a steady decline in happiness as the attribute score decreases.

"A players unhappiness with his training schedule does not seem to make any noticeable difference to his training, but it does apply a regular negative penalty to his morale which means that without positive bonuses to morale from events his morale will continue to drop."

In that case would this morale drop as opposed to the unhappiness at training have any effect on training performance. IRL it would and Im guessing it must do in the game. I havent really looked into it but I imagine it must do at somepoint, maybe a couple of months down the line as the player gets increasingly disgruntled?

I did tests on some of my youngsters (same age) over the course of the season that had the same CA and PA and played more or less the same amount of games (which wasnt many) and performed averagly/poorly when they did play (6-6.5). I solely looked at the 4 attributes of professionalism, work rate, determination and ambition giving them either a high value of 20 or a low value of 5. As you can imagine the guy with 20 in each improved the most (+34 CA) with only the combination of professionalism and WR coming close (+27 CA). When just one single attribute was high and the rest were low the Professionalism attr gave the highest returns (+18 CA) with Ambition and WR next (+10 & +9 CA). Determination on its own only improved CA by 4 points. I am going to do a similar thing this season with my new youngsters to see if the results compare so I certainly wouldnt read anything into this just yet but I thought I'd put it out there anyway ;O

I also looked at training schedules and which of these attributes would affect overall training performance if the players had exactly the same schedules. There was a slight difference in the Yth schedules but this was only for the first month until I signed them up to full time contracts where the training would reach exactly the last progression line (LPL). The only schedules that reached the LPL were those that had high professionalism (also had the highest CA gain!). When only one attribute was high determination came close to the LPL being a lighter shad of blue but not on the line. Ambition and WR were nowhere near the LPL. As I said before I am going to run more tests over the course of my next season and keep a stricter (sp??) eye over the proceedings and try and limit as many factors as I can to see whether they compare.

As I also said above dont in anyway shape or form take this as Gospel, its very much rough work and only looking at a youngsters very early development and there may be something I am missing.

[shakeable]

Hey could anyone please give the full details of training schedules please etc: Ball control improves the players dribbling, technique, first touch etc what else does it improve? i would like to no all of the training schedules if anybody No's thanks

When you go to a players profile and click the training tab you will see a small button named attributes (in the same spot as you would see positions on the profile tab) on this page look just above the attributes to the right. Here is a small drop down list button named training category. Click it and select one of the training areas to see what attributes they affect.

[SFraser]

"A players unhappiness with his training schedule does not seem to make any noticeable difference to his training, but it does apply a regular negative penalty to his morale which means that without positive bonuses to morale from events his morale will continue to drop."

In that case would this morale drop as opposed to the unhappiness at training have any effect on training performance. IRL it would and Im guessing it must do in the game. I havent really looked into it but I imagine it must do at somepoint, maybe a couple of months down the line as the player gets increasingly disgruntled?

Good question and one that makes sense if it works mechanically. I don't have the answer to that question unfortunately because in my own save Morale management is as significant to my playstyle as any other form of management and my team is generally at very high to superb across the board.

Morale does decline due to unhappiness in training as far as I am aware, but my initial investigations into unhappiness tended towards the conclusion that happiness has no direct impact on training. Indirect impacts are rife throughout FM however, so your point is well worth looking into.

I did tests on some of my youngsters (same age) over the course of the season that had the same CA and PA and played more or less the same amount of games (which wasnt many) and performed averagly/poorly when they did play (6-6.5). I solely looked at the 4 attributes of professionalism, work rate, determination and ambition giving them either a high value of 20 or a low value of 5. As you can imagine the guy with 20 in each improved the most (+34 CA) with only the combination of professionalism and WR coming close (+27 CA). When just one single attribute was high and the rest were low the Professionalism attr gave the highest returns (+18 CA) with Ambition and WR next (+10 & +9 CA). Determination on its own only improved CA by 4 points. I am going to do a similar thing this season with my new youngsters to see if the results compare so I certainly wouldnt read anything into this just yet but I thought I'd put it out there anyway ;O

I also looked at training schedules and which of these attributes would affect overall training performance if the players had exactly the same schedules. There was a slight difference in the Yth schedules but this was only for the first month until I signed them up to full time contracts where the training would reach exactly the last progression line (LPL). The only schedules that reached the LPL were those that had high professionalism (also had the highest CA gain!). When only one attribute was high determination came close to the LPL being a lighter shad of blue but not on the line. Ambition and WR were nowhere near the LPL. As I said before I am going to run more tests over the course of my next season and keep a stricter (sp??) eye over the proceedings and try and limit as many factors as I can to see whether they compare.

As I also said above dont in anyway shape or form take this as Gospel, its very much rough work and only looking at a youngsters very early development and there may be something I am missing.

This is good stuff.

Most of it, especially the first part, reinforces some experiments done by another poster on the same issue and if you read this thread from first to last page I think we can take your evidence as pretty much final proof of those relationships for Professionalism/Ambition etc.

The second part is really interesting however as it would seem to be the first investigation to propose a sound and functional meaning backed up by experiments for Training Progression Lines. It might be self evident that the higher lines indicate some superior gain from training, but such assumptions are not fact and you have now proposed that the Last Progression Line directly equals Highest CA Gain due to High Professionalism.

What is most interesting about this relationship though is the very fact that Training itself contributes significantly little to CA gain in comparison to all other factors and that training progress does not fluctuate when CA is gained or lost.

In my experience the actual Gain or Loss of CA is not directly represented by any of the Training Level or Progress bar graphs, but yet you have shown that players that have the Attributes to Gain the Maximum Level of CA also have the highest Training Progress Bars.

I wonder then if perhaps the Training Progress Lines represent not purely CA Gain but CA Re-distribution amongst Attributes. In other words the amount of CA that is being shifted each month by the training system.

This would mean that not only do highly Professional players have the potential to gain the most CA or lose the least CA, but they also shift the most CA around between attributes through Training. Then even if they do not gain much CA (because they are close to PA) they would still change the most every month because they are moving more CA around between their Attributes, therefore having a high LPL.

If this is true then Professionalism is not only important for players that develop quickly, but also for players that adapt quickly and alter their attributes quickly.

This may not be true, and feel free to disagree with me, but I think this explains a lot of the information going around, and either way the stuff you have brought up is the most interesting I have seen in a long time.

[ZdlR]

The only schedules that reached the LPL were those that had high professionalism (also had the highest CA gain!). When only one attribute was high determination came close to the LPL being a lighter shad of blue but not on the line. Ambition and WR were nowhere near the LPL.

This is very interesting. I'm inclined to view Professionalism as a player's ability to motivate himself - his natural inclination to do something, whereas Work Rate is the amount of effort that is expended once he has decided he is going to do it. Taking the two extremes as a potential reductio, a highly professional player with questionable work rate will constantly get involved in training but will likely not try too hard. Much like getting to work and doing the bare minimum but consistently throughout the day, without any browsing of the SI forums The opposite situation is a player who is unprofessional but a hard worker - someone who is fitful and sporadic in his work but dedicated once they find something they enjoy. The ideal is clearly the player that consistently applies himself as best he can.

Relating this to the game data, I can see a reflection of my assigned training plan within my more professional player's training levels, but a lack of consistency of effort applied by my less professional players. The unprofessionals, however, usually overperform in one or two areas indicating that they are more motivated for this side of the game.

[vusalgustav]

I am becoming more and more suspicious that the training is broken. Even if we assume that training only distributes CA then why some of my players develop attributes which I set to "none" or "minimum" in my training schedules?

[Da_Funk]

This is very interesting. I'm inclined to view Professionalism as a player's ability to motivate himself - his natural inclination to do something, whereas Work Rate is the amount of effort that is expended once he has decided he is going to do it.

It would be interesting to check, the regens with high professionalism how much work rate they have, statistically the relationship between professionalism and work rate in regens.

[Da_Funk]

If can be useful, there's this

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=159098

[Comedybegs]

Right, Iv now finished year 2 of my youth training trials and firstly ill start with my prodigies from last year. Iv noticed the exact same training progressions and happiness/unhappiness in year 2, and yet again the biggest gainers all have professionalism as one of their high attributes (professionalism alone = +18, PRO + WR = +18, all = +22) with the following highest containing ambition or WR. From this I can pretty much assertain that determination on its own has very little positive effect on CA gain (+9 in 2 years!).

After reading Zdlr's comments with regards to less professional players 'enjoying' an aspect of training more, I can agree and go as far to say that it seems to be the training areas that are deemed most positionaly related. By this I mean that defenders will enjoy defending more and therefore reach the LPL in defending as opposed to attacking and vica verse for offensively minded players. Now I dont know whether this could have something to do with the weightings of certain attributes on player positions but I imagine it is a combination of the two?

On to this years batch of youngsters, who despite my perfect training facilities and youth academy all turned out to be duds! After coming to the conclusion from last years squad that professionalism plays a large part in the development of youngsters I decided to test this out and see what other attributes alongside professionalism have the most profound effect.

Firstly they all reached the LPL in the third month of training (september), which I think is more than co-incidenced based on my previous years findings and they can all be worked to the max without being unhappy.

The player with the biggest gain in CA had high levels of Ambition, Professionalism and Work Rate, improving at the same rate as the player with high in all areas. The two next highest were 20 in Pro and WR/ Pro and Ambition however the rest were fairly vague and showed little difference. Therefore it looks as if what SFraser has said in his last post and what has been said on here in the other 4/5 pages is correct with regards to ambition, professionalism and to some extent WR. Im not really sure as to the effect that determination has on all of this. I could see why it should play a big part, but so far in my tests it seems to have very little. Maybe it has more of an on pitch effect, and seeing as my kids only get a few games in my U18's, this could be a reason. A younster breaking into the 1st team with high determination may well show more improvement so I dont know if anyone has looked into this before?

This year Iv added another user mainly because I bought too many youngsters and they never got a game its my main vice on FM. Buy everyone young and with a good scout rating only for them to be crap because I havent nurtered (sp?) them properly! This therefore means Il have 2 batches of fresh young faces to experiment on. If anyone has any suggestions of what they think I should look at Il gladly think about it, depending on how complicated it is!

[ZdlR]

Comedybegs: good post. I think Determination reflects a person's ability to overcome adversity. In training, it will probably have the greatest effect on the recovery of injured players.

[BaYa]

Hey guys, whats the best choice (of the 3 possibilities) for tutoring?

I want the young player to improve as fast as possible, i don't always want the younger takes the favourite moves of his mentor, which sometimes has stupid/worse fav.moves...

[fatalfury833]

Hey guys, whats the best choice (of the 3 possibilities) for tutoring?

I want the young player to improve as fast as possible, i don't always want the younger takes the favourite moves of his mentor, which sometimes has stupid/worse fav.moves...

The middle choice. Take his approach to the game or some such

[WorkingUpFromTheBottom]

Apologies if this is answered earlier but I have only read pages 1 and 5 of this thread...

Where can the values for CA, PA, LPL, Ambition, and Professionalism be found in the game? Are they only visible using some extra tool? the editor, etc

Many thanks!

[phnompenhandy]

Apologies if this is answered earlier but I have only read pages 1 and 5 of this thread...

Where can the values for CA, PA, LPL, Ambition, and Professionalism be found in the game? Are they only visible using some extra tool? the editor, etc

Many thanks!

They are all hidden figures and you need to see them either in the editor, or if you have a savegame on the go, with FMRTE. There is a guy who's released an addition to your skin which puts some of them on the screen - for all this see the Editors' forum.

[WorkingUpFromTheBottom]

Thanks for that. I thought that might be the case. I am gong to stick to what is visible in the game.

Two more questions, if I may:

1. Are the "key" skills which are limited by PA known for each position known? i.e. Striker is accelaration + finishing + whatever... and if so, where can I find them?

2. If my player has reached his potential (and therefore cannot increase "key" skills) and I am training them in an area which includes those skills, will the non-key skills ("free" for this position) in that area still increase and will they go up faster because key skills are frozen?

For example, (the actual example is made up)

Say that, for a particular player who is at full potential, passing is a key skill but creativity is not.

If I train attacking, will

a) all the training go towards creativity (giving faster improvement)

or b) 50% go to creativity and the other 50%, which would normally go to passing, is basically lost

or c) something else...

I hope this makes sense. It is harder to describe than to understand, I think!

Thanks,

Wuft

[IredzIPenguin]

I might be asking for a bit much, but could someone who has been following from the start please put a post summarizing the findings of the thread.

[phnompenhandy]

Thanks for that. I thought that might be the case. I am gong to stick to what is visible in the game.

Two more questions, if I may:

1. Are the "key" skills which are limited by PA known for each position known? i.e. Striker is accelaration + finishing + whatever... and if so, where can I find them?

2. If my player has reached his potential (and therefore cannot increase "key" skills) and I am training them in an area which includes those skills, will the non-key skills ("free" for this position) in that area still increase and will they go up faster because key skills are frozen?

For example, (the actual example is made up)

Say that, for a particular player who is at full potential, passing is a key skill but creativity is not.

If I train attacking, will

a) all the training go towards creativity (giving faster improvement)

or b) 50% go to creativity and the other 50%, which would normally go to passing, is basically lost

or c) something else...

I hope this makes sense. It is harder to describe than to understand, I think!

Thanks,

Wuft

When the player reaches his PA, training will continue to redistribute the attributes. So if you have no defence training for the striker and high attacking, points will come off marking and tackling and go to increase passing and creativity (both in 'attacking' - can't separate them).

However it doesn't work like 1 off tacking, 1 on passing. It's more like 4 points of tackling for a forward is worth 1 point of a forward's key attributes.

Hope that is what you are asking about.

[BaYa]

how to tutor young players if i want them ONLY to improve the hidden personality attributes (ambition, pressure, professionalism, sportmanship) also determination can improve, no problem with that of course... but i don't want that the rookie takes PPMs of his tutor

[yonko]

Not much has been changed, except for the "graphical limit". The 13 level historically will get your training level to achieve exactly the last progression line. For the new FM2010, this line has raised to 14. A side effect of this "graphical change" is that you will need to make training schedules with HIGHER TPO than previous versions. (damm those who made the new skin)

PS: I was still trying on the demo though but when I told my friends who have the CD, they noticed this minor change!

So using "workload optimisation" theory the magic numbers for Strength + Aerobics increase to 28 in order to improve them between 18-24 years old? Lets say I have a 20 year old defender on this schedule:

Str - 14

Aer - 14

GK - 0

Tac - 19

BC - 14

Def - 19

Att - 14

Sho - 9

SP - 9

Would that be right to raise TPO to the highest dotted line?

[Altazar]

SFraser, I have been too busy of late, but I have decided to elaborate on something that can assist in these calculations.

I am using some work done at FMFormation, and based on that derive the "role specific" attributes for every position. My idea is then to "rate" every player for each possible player role, accounting for (a) his current attributes, and (b) his current proficiency in different positions, and © his footedness. Once you have established which role the player is best rated for, you can then train him into a schedule that (a) maximizes the attributes that are essential for that position, while (b) using a schedule that does not cause injuries, and © at least for me, it is crucial to maintain some "general capability development", meaning that a player maintains attributes that may not look crucial for the specific role, since they would come into play in specific situations - therefore you maximize the player's efficiency in a given specialized role, while not allowing him to deteriorate as a footballer in other areas.

Hopefully, I shall be able to run some tests with Manchester United and maximized coaching staff to see the limit of improvement, and also with Levski Sofia and real coaching staff to see the real "marginal" team improvement.

Once I have the excel model ready, I shall try posting it here.

Best,

Martin R. Petrov aka Altazar

[ProZone]

SFraser, I have been too busy of late, but I have decided to elaborate on something that can assist in these calculations.

I am using some work done at FMFormation, and based on that derive the "role specific" attributes for every position. My idea is then to "rate" every player for each possible player role, accounting for (a) his current attributes, and (b) his current proficiency in different positions, and © his footedness. Once you have established which role the player is best rated for, you can then train him into a schedule that (a) maximizes the attributes that are essential for that position, while (b) using a schedule that does not cause injuries, and © at least for me, it is crucial to maintain some "general capability development", meaning that a player maintains attributes that may not look crucial for the specific role, since they would come into play in specific situations - therefore you maximize the player's efficiency in a given specialized role, while not allowing him to deteriorate as a footballer in other areas.

Hopefully, I shall be able to run some tests with Manchester United and maximized coaching staff to see the limit of improvement, and also with Levski Sofia and real coaching staff to see the real "marginal" team improvement.

Once I have the excel model ready, I shall try posting it here.

Best,

Martin R. Petrov aka Altazar

By way of encouragement I'd be very interested to see your results from this exercise

[ProZone]

SFraser,

As it's been a while since you updated the OP, and considering all the discussion that's been had between now and then, are you in a position to bring it up to date with your current thoughts/beliefs?

I'd like to congratulate all those who have contributed to this great thread with their testing and work. It would be of great assistance if all of the efforts could be brought together in a revised OP.