When will SI explain

[wwfan]

Was it the Man Utd first team or a bunch of kids?

[SFraser]

Very low indeed. I have a similar experience. I'm currently top of the league with Man Utd in my first season, playing very attacking football against lesser sides and balanced-attacking football against good sides. Sounds great right? Not if I tell you I've only scored 13 goals in 11 games. Ive drawn 3 (two nil-nils) and won the rest, all narrow victories of course. My defence record is extremely good and it's something I'm happy with, but I'd still like to see my team convert more chances. I'm creating them, certainly against lower sides, but then I miss so many that instead of a deserved 4-0 or 5-0 trashing I end up winning by 1 or 2 goals. I'm still winning and that's the most important thing, but I don't feel rewarded for my attacking intentions. I just hope it'll improve the more my players get to know the system (I admit 11 prem games is still early days).

Does this sound like real life much? Man Utd struggle from an inability to convert chances which is offset by the number of chances they create. This real world problem is represented in the strikers attributes.

There are a number of issues in this thread which I wish to throw my 2 cents into.

Scoring goals is a matter of finishing chances. If you create plenty of Clear Cut Chances but score few goals then you need better finishing for whoever gets those chances, or you need to construct your team so that the chances fall to your best finisher. The options here are buying a better striker, channeling play towards your best finisher, training your players in bias of finishing or the much more difficult option of constructing play in a manner which suits the ability of your team, i.e. best passer sitting deep pinging the ball to your best crosser who sends it in to your best header.

TT&F is a brilliant guide but it is useless if you do not adhere to their example of constructing play around your opponent on the basis of what your players are capable of. The Premier league should not be conquerable by a second rate inflexible manager. If you wish to bang in goals then you need to pay attention to detail, end of story.

The deep lying striker is a question of positioning and ability, like every other role in the game. Players with low teamwork, workrate and anticipation should not be expected to drop deep for the ball and if such a player is desired to play behind the frontman then he should be positioned in the AMC position. If you want chances in the back of the net you need finishers on the end of chances, if you want creative ability behind strikers you need to position them behind strikers. How you do this depends upon the player, your understanding of the match engine and the tactical setup of the opponent.

For example Tevez is not going to feed Berbatov against the ultra defense of the low Premier League clubs but Paul Scholes certainly will, whereas Anderson is far more likely to find space during intensive action than Scholes. Tevez is more likely to win the ball or cause panic than Berbatov but less likely to finish. Rooney will scare defences and see opportunities but wont unlock defences like Scholes nor finish them like Ronaldo. Do you want five half decent finishers in the box or do you want two great finishers? Who provides the buildup and cutting edge? If you want deep lying aggressive play then go high mentality with no FWR, if you want to lay it off on the edge of the box then you need low mentality, Often FWR, holdup ball and plenty of runners. Do you want the ball to feet or behind the defender? Thats through balls set to high or low.

Do you want a fighter coming deep to win and laying it off, then running forward, escaping his marker and putting it in the net? Set Tevez to low mentality with high closing down, no Free Role, FWR Often, TTB none, Shoot from distance mixed and cross ball from deep. Want Berbatov sitting high up the pitch, laying it off and finishing moves? Set him to high mentality, playmaker, FWR mixed, no through balls, cross from deep, free role and make sure he has lots of passing options.

The fundamental issue here is obviously a divide between the playerbase and developers in understanding what means what and where. The manual sucks and while the guides are effective (Brilliant TT&F) most players are still left looking for a golden formation solution to all their problems. Manchester United versus Barcelona in the European Cup Semi Final of 2008 showed that if you approach football like a contest between player ability and nothing more then you will be defeated by superior tactical planning, and a bit of luck. The Premier League is the hallmark of this mantra. It has become over the last five years the Italy of the 1980s with its own personal watermark of physical effort and ability. To tell the truth FM2009 is like all strategy games lacking in the capability of the AI to respond to player tactics, if you are armed with the knowledge and put in the effort you should defeat this pre-designed and uncreative system 9 times out of ten, and that is enough to win you most leagues.

[wwfan]

The fundamental issue here is obviously a divide between the playerbase and developers in understanding what means what and where. The manual sucks and while the guides are effective (Brilliant TT&F) most players are still left looking for a golden formation solution to all their problems. Manchester United versus Barcelona in the European Cup Semi Final of 2008 showed that if you approach football like a contest between player ability and nothing more then you will be defeated by superior tactical planning, and a bit of luck. The Premier League is the hallmark of this mantra. It has become over the last five years the Italy of the 1980s with its own personal watermark of physical effort and ability. To tell the truth FM2009 is like all strategy games lacking in the capability of the AI to respond to player tactics, if you are armed with the knowledge and put in the effort you should defeat this pre-designed and uncreative system 9 times out of ten, and that is enough to win you most leagues.

I think the tactics forums here and elsewhere are partly to blame for this situation, although ME weaknesses take the remainder. Over the last three iterations of FM there has been a major split in how people played FM. There were the super-tacticians and those who produced more generic guides. As FM developed, the ME began to require more and more outrageous solutions from super-tacticians, culminating in the crazy arrow tactics of FM08. For many people this was how they have always played FM. Design or download a tactic, buy players and press continue. However, ME development has gone down the path of the latter, regarding tactics as being team, player and match specific rather than a win-them-all system that consistently outperforms the ME. FM09 has finally tipped the balance so that the former is impossible. This means mind-sets have to change and people are having to think about how to get the best out of their players in the match situation they are in. It will be a reasonably steep learning curve but one that will bring much reward at its end.

[PrimeTime76]

I won't go too much into detail or the technicalities of an obvious very intricate AI system developed by the company but...

Why is it that every year a new version of the game is released and yet every year several patches HAVE to be released in order to correct several bugs?

Shouldn't the company take much more time into preparing a game that works? I understand that there will always be a small bug that comes up (the player rating changing - not too too bad imo) but as mentioned with every game there is a NEED for several patches.

Maybe they should FIX a version completely rather than try to make more money by releasing something which is obviously not functioning correctly.

Isn't that what this board is for? To have direct input to the most important people out there...the consumers! This is us telling you that the game, every year, needs a lot of tweaking. Then finally when we get to a point where its "just ok" a new version is on the way out. Now before someone tells me I don't need to go out and get the new version I agree with you on that point....HOWEVER....I di spend money on the previous versions which in my opinion were never really completed as they still had issues. LAst version had a ridiculous last 3 minute bug where no matter what you did you got scored on by a 4-2-4 formation that mysteriously EVERY team, in the world used.

Look, we love the game, we love the concept and we love complaining thats obvious. I personally feel that this latest version should have been held off and made sue it was bug free before releasing. So what if we have to play last year;s version for 2 years? Would it have been worth it to get an amazing, nearly flawless version if we'd have waited 1 more year....or 6 more months?

Sometimes satisfied customers are worth more in the end than making a few extra bucks.

[Optimistic Dave]

I don't think the issue is really with strikers not scoring enough - I play Everton and Victor and Vaughny (sold Yak for being lazy) are at about 1 goal every 3 games each which isn't too bad. The problem is the ratings. This may be because they aren't running far enough, or they are not involved enough, or that they do not win enough headers but unless they score they get low 5s. It should be a rating for quality of work aswell as quantity and it should take account of the fact that they play against hulking great centrebacks who naturally win more headers.

[SFraser]

I think the tactics forums here and elsewhere are partly to blame for this situation, although ME weaknesses take the remainder. Over the last three iterations of FM there has been a major split in how people played FM. There were the super-tacticians and those who produced more generic guides. As FM developed, the ME began to require more and more outrageous solutions from super-tacticians, culminating in the crazy arrow tactics of FM08. For many people this was how they have always played FM. Design or download a tactic, buy players and press continue. However, ME development has gone down the path of the latter, regarding tactics as being team, player and match specific rather than a win-them-all system that consistently outperforms the ME. FM09 has finally tipped the balance so that the former is impossible. This means mind-sets have to change and people are having to think about how to get the best out of their players in the match situation they are in. It will be a reasonably steep learning curve but one that will bring much reward at its end.

I wont beat around the bush, in my opinion the problem here is that it can take months even if you have access to these forums to understand how this game operates, and even then only if you have access to relatively solid tactics anyway that allow you to problem solve specific positions.

In my case I was swamped by FM08 when I bought it and it sat on my shelves unused for months, but then the bug caught me and I came here and because I am a football fan FM08 became easilly one of my favourite games, perhaps even my favourite.

It is not a hard game just a challenging game, but if you do not know where to begin it can be an impossible game. I consider myself a purist when it comes to strategy games, or games in general, I have no time for commerce or holier-than-thou development of an obviously sup-par computer game. I pay wages, despite the fractions and I expect epics, end of story.

FM is an epic, and might I suggest from a HOI, Victoria and Dominions player that it surpasses epics, but what it lacks is a guided tour past frustration to enjoyment of challenge. I played CM before I played any other strategy game in my life, but the technical brilliance and flaws are just not obvious if you are frustrated.

Let me say one thing though TT&F may not be a manual of inevitable success but it is an effort of excellence. The one real flaw in the entirety of production of this game is what you take onboard and alleviate, despite the best efforts of others to ignore, and I applaud you for it. I just think perhaps you have scared one customer away from FM Live

[jabso]

SI will not explain because SI moderators, staff, etc, aren't a company that listens to its members. Thus - you can see why they aren't a big name company.

You clearly don't understand how the real world works. Football Manager is the most successful product SI release and even that is a niche market product, it rarely raises a mention even on major gaming news sites.

Do you really think EA is a big name company because it listens to it's fans? It's a big name company because of the capital it's built up over the years developing a wide range of games. They have enough money to pay a lot of people to listen to their fans, enough money to buy those licenses, enough money to spend on talented staff to seal the deal to make new games and expand into more markets and start new projects.

SI makes enough money by catering to a niche market the bigger companies just cannot reach, they take ideas and designs such as FM, OOTP Baseball and give them the chance the bigger companies wouldn't waste their time on, sure they're not making the amount of money the bigger companies are, but they're also not investing a lot of their money on risky projects they don't know a lot about. You need to understand the role of certain companies and not every company aspires to be huge corporate monsters.

SI is an independent company and they're not looking to be the next EA. If you think they have a poor position in the market, you simply don't know enough to comment.

[Millie]

Looks like I was completely misunderstood, as usual. I'll try footnoting, not that it will make much difference I'm sure.

To clarify - there have been some good points raised now, but at the time of my initial post, there was little in the way of actual debate. Some (including moj who seems to be one of the most negative posters I've come across on any forum) were getting right up my nose. If I sounded terse, I apologise, but my key points remain valid:

There's a guide which Paul Collyer, the maker of the match engine, has endorsed. Short of them releasing you the match code, that's probably the best you're going to get.

The SI bods hardly ever post in the tactics forum, and they never have done. To be honest, they've got better things to do with their time. They help people from time to time in GQ, and the amount of features that have entered the game as direct requests on these forums is phenomenal.

Translation: SI will not be posting to every single reply in this forum. In the past, even when they have, people don't do a search for their query, the answer gets lost and people asume SI don't give a monkeys (because somebody with an SI avatar doesn't reply to every single thread). The reason Paul endorsed TT&F was to give an official seal of approval to a set of assumptions and approaches to the game. It's not the only way to play, I totally accept that. But if you read it and digest it properly, it explains quite a bit of the game's mechanics.

Yes. It's not a complete guide. There are things not covered. But there is this assumption that everyone at SI knows exactly how the tactics work and what the best settings are and how to make a specific player perform a very specific task. I don't think I'm making any major statements when I say - they don't. There are so many variables in tactics and in the game, so many different ways of playing, that all they can really do is basically explain what the sliders do to the ME.

This is something I would like an official word on. In the absense of it, however, the moderators and members of this forum do an excellent job in describing how it works - just because they don't work for SI doesn't mean they don't know what they're talking about.

What exactly do you want SI to do, actually? People say "we need this carified", but what needs clarifying? What sort of answer would sate you? Because tactics are complex things. Paul coming on here and saying "play this tactic, it wins all the time" just isn't going to happen.

Translation: What is it you are expecting? What information do you need? What makes you think that Paul knows the "definitive" answer? What makes you think there is a definitive answer? Are you expecting the information you're given to work miracles on your side and make up for/fix a fatally flawed game approach?

What I'm struggling to cope with here (or was struggling, some good points and questions have come since) is that people want "clarification" but haven't actually thought about what it is that they want clarification about.

Like I said. TT&F is officially endorsed, and the mods and members of this forum are all too willing to help. Beyond that, you're welcome to not buy any more versions of FM and make your stand that way.

Translation: What we have at the moment has been the status quo for a long time. SI, for one reason or another, don't post actively in the tactics forums. Thus, the chances of this changing are minimal. So, if you expect a much higher level of service from a company that sells you your products, I'm afraid that in this particular instance you will always be disappointed.

SI tried to help people by offering advice through the forums. Not listening to any advice on the grounds that the poster doesn't work for SI doesn't help.

So the ultimate question remains - what exactly do you want to know, why, and do you really think SI could even give you a magic answer?

[maverick_nc1]

There are some fantastic and informative posts on here, most notably from Sfraser, Mille and WWfan. Just to chip in my my tuppence worth i have the following advice - Patience and KISS (Keep it simple stupid).

Just like the rest of you ive had issues with world class strikers being unable to hit a cows arse with a banjo, but it just takes patience.

Watch a few matches (the whole thing) and observe the whats/wheres/hows of your teams play, not just the strikers. It isnt necessarily their fault they arent scoring.

Especially in the first season keep your tactics SIMPLE - i cannot stress this highly enough. Squad gelling issues etc make your team less likely to respond to any super-complicated 11-individuals tactical set-up.

Adjust tactics as your players gel and get used to you.

AVOID the pitfalls of 'im not scoring so i need to to even more attacking' - this is NOT always the correct choice and adjusting mentalities in this way may only succeed in isolating your front men.

In my humble opinion this is the best version of FM yet, the realism and difficulty are spot on. Sure, we have frustrating moments, but even Sir Alex and Arsene Wenger do too. There are soooooo many factors to take into account other than just a players stats anymore, and that is the way it should be. What kind of manager are you?

When it all comes together the sense of achievement with this game far exceeds any of the previous iterations. Now, back to defending my title - serious 2nd season hangover at the moment!

Good luck all, be patient!

[GudangGaram]

here's my terrible experience.... i'm using liverpool... didnt bought any new player... didnt sold anyone... i had 26 shot with 17 on target... and my opposition is west brom with 1 shot and 1 on target... play at anfield... i lose 0-1 to west brom... how's that possible??? 17 on target no goal?? it's f**king realistic.... damn...

edit:

i think torres has been bribed by SI... LOL

[maverick_nc1]

here's my terrible experience.... i'm using liverpool... didnt bought any new player... didnt sold anyone... i had 26 shot with 17 on target... and my opposition is west brom with 1 shot and 1 on target... play at anfield... i lose 0-1 to west brom... how's that possible??? 17 on target no goal?? it's f**king realistic.... damn...

In the words of Jimmy Greaves, its a funny old game. Its simply impossible to judge anything from one match! Have you ever watched a match where (for ex). Man U/Arsenal/Liverpool have completely and utterly dominated a game and yet failed to win? Yep, me too......

[paulbluecat]

I think as the originator of this post my question is still not answered. i play as man city and beofre you say i am a glory hunter i will point out i lived in the next street from maine road and even used to hide in the ground after matches with my mates so we could play on the hallowed turf once everyone had gone. i personally think i was the top scorer at maine road aged 11:).

i love the football manager series and have never delved to much into the tactical side. if this year it needs delving into then bring it on.

my concern is that robinho will have a half time rating of 5.2 so i put him in goal and he automatically raises to above 7. when i switch him back he goes back down to 5.2. this is playing pre season against the blind wheel chair bound under5's from bangledesh. it does not make sense

it is fair to say that i have completely changed the backroom staff and changed most of the playing staff who all have differing nationalities so should i really expect to go out and spank the blind?

is there a forward rating bug or not??????

[AmA Deo]

I think as the originator of this post my question is still not answered. i play as man city and beofre you say i am a glory hunter i will point out i lived in the next street from maine road and even used to hide in the ground after matches with my mates so we could play on the hallowed turf once everyone had gone. i personally think i was the top scorer at maine road aged 11:).

i love the football manager series and have never delved to much into the tactical side. if this year it needs delving into then bring it on.

my concern is that robinho will have a half time rating of 5.2 so i put him in goal and he automatically raises to above 7. when i switch him back he goes back down to 5.2. this is playing pre season against the blind wheel chair bound under5's from bangledesh. it does not make sense

it is fair to say that i have completely changed the backroom staff and changed most of the playing staff who all have differing nationalities so should i really expect to go out and spank the blind?

is there a forward rating bug or not??????

Maybe the game is a bit harsh on the forwards.. I cant imagine SI not to do something about for the next patch (which I hope will be ready soon!!)

[Evon]

Let me make this clear. The only thing I want from the match engine is for a successful tactic which isn't constructed from having to go onto a forum and read an incredibly long essay just to be able to play a game properly. It makes some good points, but unfortunately not everyone has time or the patience for that. We should be able to make a decent tactic from basic common sense and football knowledge.

This game is unaccessible to the casual gamer. I do not want to have to spend hours reading advice off a forum to be able to play a game. It's just ridiculous. Every year there are bugs and problems. I have come to accept that. But now the match engine makes it impossible for me to play the game properly. This is not acceptable. Common sense and general football knowledge. That is what should be the basis of a tactic. The guide may be common sense but there is an awful lot of testing and theories. It's much too complicated.

[Rittings]

I totally agree with Evon. The game has become pretentious and elitist. As I said about 4 years ago on these forums, the game needs difficulty settings so as to please everyone...

I find myself scouring the internet for tactics every single year. I just do NOT have the time to pee about with all the nonsense. I have purchased EVERY Champ Man (and then Footie Manager) since it's release. That includes separate German/Italian/Spanish editions (etc...).

It's been a while since they released a good match engine. It's gotten too complicated and finally meets its resting place in the form of FM2009... I am a huge huge HUGE fan of the series, but have been constantly disappointed by the lack of respect for the customers (everyone of us here). If I ran a business like that I would go broke. It sells now on name only... It could be sooo much better.

[treble_yell_:-)]

The match engine is bordering on perfect , however the tactics module does need redefined as it does appear to have become more difficult for the mentally challenged to use.

The hyperbole in this thread is hilarious

[Indi75]

The match engine is bordering on perfect , however the tactics module does need redefined as it does appear to have become more difficult for the mentally challenged to use.

The hyperbole in this thread is hilarious

That truly has made my absolute day!!!! I'm off to the gym with such a wide smile on my face.

I quite agree. If it's too hard, there are other, easier, games available.

[Evon]

I'm sorry. But it's not a game if you have to spend hours revising just to be able to progress properly. And I didn't realise that FM was actually sold as a game telling people to **** off if they thought it was too hard. It's a game. It is meant to be challenging but not to the extent where everybody except those on this sub-forum can actually play it properly. That's a typical fanboy attitude. Here are my solutions to the problem. Either:

a) Fix the match engine up and revamp the tactical code (unlikely)

b) Stick a simplified version of wwfan's guide in the next FM

c) An explanation from SI as to what each slider does and details on the whole tactical system. At the moment it is incredibly confusing and the changes to the arrows were not explained properly whatsoever. (The best solution imo)

Btw, we should move this to General Discussion for a a wider range of views. that and it doesn't really belong here.

[AmA Deo]

I'm sorry. But it's not a game if you have to spend hours revising just to be able to progress properly. And I didn't realise that FM was actually sold as a game telling people to **** off if they thought it was too hard. It's a game. It is meant to be challenging but not to the extent where everybody except those on this sub-forum can actually play it properly. That's a typical fanboy attitude. Here are my solutions to the problem. Either:

a) Fix the match engine up and revamp the tactical code (unlikely)

b) Stick a simplified version of wwfan's guide in the next FM

c) An explanation from SI as to what each slider does and details on the whole tactical system. At the moment it is incredibly confusing and the changes to the arrows were not explained properly whatsoever. (The best solution imo)

Btw, we should move this to General Discussion for a a wider range of views. that and it doesn't really belong here.

I hear you! Let us all hope that SI hear it too !!!!1111111

[paulbluecat]

Ok, i have played around with the tactics and i am now scoring goals, although just lost to everton 2-0:thdn:. i am more than happy to sit and tinker with tactics and look for the right players afterall i have not payed 30 quid to keep clicking the mouse to win each game with a master tactic.

can we please leave this post to answer why the ratings change if you move the forwards.

bug or not explanation pppplllllleeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaassssssssseeeeeeee

[E.Coli]

Fair point on the moderators statement. Is EA a big gaming company?

EA is a big company that has made broken sports games for years now, they dont lisen to nobody.

Just think for there football manager 09 so full of errors that its unplayeble

I think SI do lisen to there users, but I don't think they do enough to make the gameplay better. In FM09 they put most energy on the new game look but have not made a good mach engine. I hope they fix it soon because like FM08 the new FM09 is a bit of a wast of time.

[isuckatfm]

can we please leave this post to answer why the ratings change if you move the forwards.

bug or not explanation pppplllllleeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaassssssssseeeeeeee

Wild speculation/guess or whatever you want to call it :-

Ratings are absolute based on position and statistics.

So you have a striker who has a statistics set A (passes, tackles, etc.)

He has a rating as a striker which involves plugging statistics set A into the striker rating calculation.

You move him to the goalkeeper position. The game now plugs his statistics set A into the goalkeeper rating calculation and updates, resulting in an absolute rating as if he was in the GK position from the start. Thus his rating suddenly changes.

This happens for all switches between positions, it just appears that the striker => GK change seems to have the biggest effect.

Is this a bug or an issue? It really depends on what it takes to fix it, if it is possible to fix it and what problems manifest after making the fix. Then the question becomes is it worth changing it for this rare scenario (GK sent off, no GK on bench and necessary to put outfield player in goal) when it has knock on effects which are prevalent consistently.

That's just based on swapping players around and watching how their ratings change when the swap is implemented. Whether or not there is more complexity to it (player rating in the position for example). Quick little check seems to indicate it does as swapping Scholes for Rooney has (MC to ST in 442) little effect on Scholes rating as he has a ST positional rating, but swapping Carrick for Berbatov (MC to ST in 442) causes Carrick's rating to drop significantly.

Don't get me wrong the striker ratings are quite harsh and largely seem to be influenced by headers, maybe offsides. But coding it to recognise a role and more general performance would be a challenging task (for example a striker who is crap in the air would not get called up for not winning any headers by people watching the match and rating his performance). Would you have it analyse the likelihood of the striker winning headers as part of the decision in assigning a weighting? That might be workable but at the same time it throws all of the things that rely on average ratings (and an absolute consistency in how they are judged in the game) out of sync. For example player awards in real life aren't purely statistical but in game there is no other way for them to function.

[treble_yell_:-)]

I'm sorry. But it's not a game if you have to spend hours revising just to be able to progress properly. And I didn't realise that FM was actually sold as a game telling people to **** off if they thought it was too hard. It's a game. It is meant to be challenging but not to the extent where everybody except those on this sub-forum can actually play it properly. That's a typical fanboy attitude. Here are my solutions to the problem. Either:

a) Fix the match engine up and revamp the tactical code (unlikely)

b) Stick a simplified version of wwfan's guide in the next FM

c) An explanation from SI as to what each slider does and details on the whole tactical system. At the moment it is incredibly confusing and the changes to the arrows were not explained properly whatsoever. (The best solution imo)

Btw, we should move this to General Discussion for a a wider range of views. that and it doesn't really belong here.

I really didnt find the tactics that hard to set up, imho some people just want to pick a default 4-4-2 or 4-5-1 etc and win, that's not how it works.

I do agree the tactical UI could do with a rework, it is pretty unintuitive , but to presume that people who have never visited the tactics forum or read the TTF will have no chance is plain wrong, for example my brother picked QPR , choose 4-4-2 , made a quick adjustment to his tactics and is happily top of the league thinking FM 09 is the best one yet

[kolobok]

I don't see why SI owe explanation to anybody, as well as why people pay so much attention to ratings. I also don't understand why almost everybody seem to think that he is a better expert than SI people in terms of what is realistic. Rating system seems a bit strange to me at least since 07, after-match comments on key players sometimes far from what really happened in the match since 08 and ass. man in game feedback sometimes veryy funny in 09. Who cares? I am the manager, so I don't really care what others (media, assistant, etc.) think as long as I know what I am doing. If I want my ST stay there and catch a chance, but midfield did not create a chance, then ST's bad rating would mean nothing to me. If there was a bunch of opportunities and he killed all birds around the stadium instead of scoring more than once - I don't care if gets 8 - he will be severely punished:D

[isuckatfm]

I don't see....why people pay so much attention to ratings

Ratings affect

- morale => affects performance

- ratings affect player expectations in terms of team talks and general interaction => affects morale => affects performance

- player valuation and by extension the whole transfer market

- who wins which awards which again impacts on valuation and the game world as a whole

- fan confidence in players/new signings => impacts on job security, not greatly but may well be the straw that breaks the camel's back

So while I agree with your view about judging based on 2D, there are too many other elements of the game impacted by the ratings which in my opinion mean that it cannot be dismissed as a minor issue.

[Ainu]

I don't see why SI owe explanation to anybody

I do, we're the paying the customers.

[kolobok]

Ratings affect

- morale => affects performance

- ratings affect player expectations in terms of team talks and general interaction => affects morale => affects performance

- player valuation and by extension the whole transfer market

- who wins which awards which again impacts on valuation and the game world as a whole

- fan confidence in players/new signings => impacts on job security, not greatly but may well be the straw that breaks the camel's back

So while I agree with your view about judging based on 2D, there are too many other elements of the game impacted by the ratings which in my opinion mean that it cannot be dismissed as a minor issue.

If team wins, morale goes up regardless of rating; 1 player rating constantly low, then something wrong with player's instruction or man management. If ST does not score, he does not do his job. Whist it's possible that he does not have chances, if it's happening regualrly then something wron with tactic/man management. Anyway, the whole point of ratings is to serve as an indicator. In the example with ST moved down to def position and his rating increasing - assuming it's not a bug it would tell me that the problem is with player instructions - he does nothing upfront - rather than with player himself. If it's a bug, there is a special forum, which is closely monitored by SI.

I do, we're the paying the customers.

Game is playable? Yes. Nobody tells you where to find secret weapon in a quest game. You are supposed to figure it out yourself. Same story.

[cini65]

i think the games just a bit boring.

tempted to go back to FM08.

[Barnaby]

Game is playable? Yes. Nobody tells you where to find secret weapon in a quest game. You are supposed to figure it out yourself. Same story.

This is more like going to a shoot em up... without a gun.

[Ainu]

Game is playable? Yes. Nobody tells you where to find secret weapon in a quest game. You are supposed to figure it out yourself. Same story.

Typical. No one is asking for a golden tactic (well, some probably are, but that's beside the point). The fact is people are experiencing issues while the majority of the players (who didn't read the TT&F) haven't got a clue how the match engine really works. Of course the game is playable (though there ARE issues with strikers finishing easy chances), but at the same time it's completely unplayable for those who're struggling with the match engine and tactical input. There's just not enough clarity, and even after reading the TT&F it takes a while to digest its concepts.

You aren't supposed to figure out how tactical instructions work, no. Not the same story at all.

[isuckatfm]

If team wins, morale goes up regardless of rating; 1 player rating constantly low, then something wrong with player's instruction or man management. If ST does not score, he does not do his job. Whist it's possible that he does not have chances, if it's happening regualrly then something wron with tactic/man management. Anyway, the whole point of ratings is to serve as an indicator. In the example with ST moved down to def position and his rating increasing - assuming it's not a bug it would tell me that the problem is with player instructions - he does nothing upfront - rather than with player himself. If it's a bug, there is a special forum, which is closely monitored by SI.

Fair enough but I disagree and a couple of examples will illustrate why. You're a team expected to be relegated so you don't have the quality to create chances and tactics can only do so much. Despite all the settings, available passing options your short arse striker still ends up competing for a fair percentage of headers in a game. Add in the lack of chances due to squad ability/tactics (I recognise tactics plays a role but there is only so much you can do) and your short arse striker gets crap ratings.

In the real world fans recognise your team's deficiencies but appreciate endeavour. So in the real world this short arse striker runs his socks off and the fans appreciate that he is flogging a dead horse but doing so admirably. In FM the fans say his ratings are crap therefore he is crap. They get concerned about his ratings and/or judge him as a bad signing.

Also your team is losing due to deficiencies in player quality thus morale is low. Even with perfect tactics the lack of quality will tell. So his morale goes down and your tools for affecting his morale are linked to his ratings. What can you do if the game judges him as playing crap because of the weighting of his heading attribute?

I could make the same argument for defensive midfielders in this and 08. Assists, goals, key impacts affect ratings. A defensive midfielder will rarely be involved in any of these so his ratings will never get high. But he is doing his job. Real life fans recognise this. FM virtual fans do not. Real life players performing their jobs can be praised. FM virtual players cannot as their expectations of praise are based on their ratings. So you can't use the tools as intended because the ratings system and hence player perception of their performance is not sophisticated enough.

Besides the morale, praising players builds a squad. With the right set of players, the right use of praise and performance levels you can build up your 'favoured personnel' rating thus creating your own Chelsea-Mourinho style lovefest. But because the ratings are tied to player expectations of team talks/praise this becomes restricted. A professional personality DM will not take to kindly to being praised for consistent 7s but because of the nature of his role this is what will happen.

So the man management aspect gets neutered, a module of the game that cannot be utilised to it's full extent because another module it relies on for it's input is too limited. You are then left with tactics which can only take you so far for a given squad (for example anyone posting about finishing in the top 10 with Hull in the first season without signing any players would be greeted with extreme skepticism on my end ). Win and win again or you are screwed. If you think there is nothing wrong with that then we are of very differing opinions .

[Sp3aker]

lol mate the online activation was ********. the game was cracked the day after release

[killface]

I've scored 44 in 22 as Udinese and I'm 2nd in Serie A....end of story. You can score goals, just requires the right tactics and patience.

[PrimeTime76]

Do you really think EA is a big name company because it listens to it's fans? It's a big name company because of the capital it's built up over the years developing a wide range of games. They have enough money to pay a lot of people to listen to their fans, enough money to buy those licenses, enough money to spend on talented staff to seal the deal to make new games and expand into more markets and start new projects.

SI makes enough money by catering to a niche market the bigger companies just cannot reach, they take ideas and designs such as FM, OOTP Baseball and give them the chance the bigger companies wouldn't waste their time on, sure they're not making the amount of money the bigger companies are, but they're also not investing a lot of their money on risky projects they don't know a lot about. You need to understand the role of certain companies and not every company aspires to be huge corporate monsters.

SI is an independent company and they're not looking to be the next EA. If you think they have a poor position in the market, you simply don't know enough to comment.

I agree 110% with everything you are saying....but let me ask you...don't you think that being a company that deals within a niche market, such as SI, perhaps they should really pay closer attention to what the customer is requesting? SInce they have more to lose than say EA they really need to nail their product dead on to avoid losing their entire client base.

EA can release an absolute piece of trash and not worry how much it costs them because they'll simply release the next version of "Whatever Sport 2010" and make it all back and then some.

SI is great at what they do...in fact I don't think that anyone beats them (except an old Boxing Manager game I use to play on Amiga - good times) but I still think they rush to release every new version without cleaning up many bugs to make the game almost unplayable.

I still think they need to make sure everything is covered before they release the game in order to avoid releasing several patches and upgrades. Take FM08 for example, there were still several bug (Corner Kick Routine) that were never corrected before they released FM2009. I don't agree with their method of doing something like that. I personally think they're taking our money without producing a product which actually performs as advertized.

[kolobok]

...If you think there is nothing wrong with that then we are of very differing opinions .

Well, I am not saying that everything is clear, perfect, etc. Not at all. But here the thing. People say the game should simulate real life fairly well.I skip the part where NO one takes a relegation candidate or Big 4 team and, in fact, claims he will do better than predecessor. That's just game. But then this No One claims that he was not told what to do and how things work. WTF?

It's one thing to say: "Hey I noticed something strange with ratings (finishing, back passing, not tackling etc., you name it). Do you think it's me or something wrong". Well I would be the first who would say "Yep, something weird is going on here and there. I saw a player's (MC) rating jumping from 5.9 to 7.5 for 5 match minutes and then drop back. Nothing happened in between. I am not even sure that the MC touched the ball".

It's completely different thing: "You owe me an explanation !!!!!!". I got one: there is a small bug in the code that has not been caught. Any programmer in the world will tell you - there is no code without a bug. The whole question here that most people don't even bother to explain why one thing or another is so important that it should be immediately addressed. My experience tells me that this rating issue in most cases disappears as time flies. Maybe because of team settling, maybe something else. If it persists then either we have a bug, or something wrong with settings. Oh, sorry I should not have said that. Settings are always perfect. SI may have a different opinion but who are they, really? Merely servants.

[AmA Deo]

Well, I am not saying that everything is clear, perfect, etc. Not at all. But here the thing. People say the game should simulate real life fairly well.I skip the part where NO one takes a relegation candidate or Big 4 team and, in fact, claims he will do better than predecessor. That's just game. But then this No One claims that he was not told what to do and how things work. WTF?

I have played the game for ten years and now (with FM09) I cant score more than 1.2 goals in average per match. I have experimented with tactics for 48 hours in total, but I cant figure out how to create more chances/score more goals (I am playing very attacking, where I surprisingly make many clean sheets).

Either I (and many others from this community) have become tactical blind or then SI have to improve the tactical/match engine. I think this is one of those "invincible" errors that programmers cant find just looking at the source code. I deeply hope SI will take a look at this to find out whether it is something that need an improvement or not...

[isuckatfm]

Well, I am not saying that everything is clear, perfect, etc. Not at all. But here the thing. People say the game should simulate real life fairly well.I skip the part where NO one takes a relegation candidate or Big 4 team and, in fact, claims he will do better than predecessor. That's just game. But then this No One claims that he was not told what to do and how things work. WTF?

It's one thing to say: "Hey I noticed something strange with ratings (finishing, back passing, not tackling etc., you name it). Do you think it's me or something wrong". Well I would be the first who would say "Yep, something weird is going on here and there. I saw a player's (MC) rating jumping from 5.9 to 7.5 for 5 match minutes and then drop back. Nothing happened in between. I am not even sure that the MC touched the ball".

It's completely different thing: "You owe me an explanation !!!!!!". I got one: there is a small bug in the code that has not been caught. Any programmer in the world will tell you - there is no code without a bug. The whole question here that most people don't even bother to explain why one thing or another is so important that it should be immediately addressed. My experience tells me that this rating issue in most cases disappears as time flies. Maybe because of team settling, maybe something else. If it persists then either we have a bug, or something wrong with settings. Oh, sorry I should not have said that. Settings are always perfect. SI may have a different opinion but who are they, really? Merely servants.

Again fair enough. I don't disagree with you but this is more an argument of expectations of developer feedback, people in general having an emotional attachment to the game resulting in a sense of ownership and consequently over zealous demands alongside exagerrated reactionary posting. But that's way off topic

I think part of the issue is prior versions including 08 were way over the top in terms of striker performance. They would claim a very high % of shots taken from open play in a given match and over the course of a season, and as a result score too many goals. Statistically speaking I think the spread looks more realistic in this version but in actually watching a match it doesn't feel like the reasons for the more realistic spread are what they should be (counter to that though I do like how defenders don't just blindly rush out leaving an unmarked striker behind them). But at the same time I do have ridiculously high expectations when it comes to looking at the match engine

[Lazy Bhoy]

My strikers struggle to put away easy chances, but have no trouble in hitting the post. In my last game against St Mirren they hit the post no less than 5 times

[joelufc20]

I think the problem is respect, im Leeds and top of League 1. I have Beckford 22 goals in 37 Games, Becchio 25 games 2 goals, Chopra 1 goal in 10 games, Helguson 1 goal in 7 games, Chris killen 4 goals in 12 games and Tresor Kandol 1 goal in 5 games. Now you would expect more goals from these forwards however they are not motivated to play for me because of my reputation, also this time i have no natual link between midfield and attack in pablo piatti which on the last version brought 65% of my goals.

[Rittings]

It's not much to expect them to answer some questions. I counted a few forums about this, and the replies that wanted answers. I came up with over 200 different posters. Now I paid 40 quid for this game, so I calculate 8 grands worth of complaints. That's no small amount in hard times like these.

No doubt there are thousands out there that feel the same way too. Oh, and to answer one of the guys up there... the game has been cracked, and was actually released a day before the official release date of the game. I noticed it when I was searching a torrent site (I needed a copy of Match of the Day from last weekend because I was working and my DVD recorder didn't come on at the right time!!). But I thought I would look since it had been mentioned here. And there it was... and loads of comments saying that it had worked for them!!

Pity they are about to be as frustrated as the rest of us. The real piracy deterent is just how POOR and FRUSTRATING and PRETENTIOUS this game is.

[Jase1982]

Yes agree on that one Paul, that is probably a bug.

Because he's getting more of the ball in defence than up front?

[Evon]

You say the strikers had a disproportionate amount of the goals in 08 and I agree. But now my strikers rarely even get a shot AT ALL. It's a little over the top. And also, we're not going to accomplish anything arguing here. General Discussion is the place to go.

[kolobok]

I have played the game for ten years and now (with FM09) I cant score more than 1.2 goals in average per match. I have experimented with tactics for 48 hours in total, but I cant figure out how to create more chances/score more goals (I am playing very attacking, where I surprisingly make many clean sheets).

Either I (and many others from this community) have become tactical blind or then SI have to improve the tactical/match engine. I think this is one of those "invincible" errors that programmers cant find just looking at the source code. I deeply hope SI will take a look at this to find out whether it is something that need an improvement or not...

Half of the teams in EPL have not scored more than 1.2 goals per game, so what's so unrealistic?

Your experience with anything but FM07-08 has nothing to do with FM09. It's just different game that only looks similar to previous versions.

As for your experiments... How many matches have you played while experimenting? How many settings have you tried? All your players believe that you are the one to manage them?

[Mitja]

does anyone experience huge amounts of off-sides in their matches. like 10-15. it's killing me. it happens to AI too. and i don't play the off-side trap. i don't think it's tactics though...

[shoey999]

si DO listen to members and consumers. and also when you test a game you have 10 testers, then u do a beta maybe 1000- or more testers, then the realease, millions of testers noticing even more bugs etc. that is the way every single game is done and it will never stop as thats the way.

on a pc we get patches, to fix the millions of people noticing bugs etc that do go un noticed. unlike consoles

[isuckatfm]

You say the strikers had a disproportionate amount of the goals in 08 and I agree. But now my strikers rarely even get a shot AT ALL. It's a little over the top. And also, we're not going to accomplish anything arguing here. General Discussion is the place to go.

I don't mean this in an offensive way but I don't judge the match engine based on individual gamer's experiences but on statistics of AI managed teams.

Real Life 2007/2008 Premiership

Total Shots Attempted Top 10

Ronaldo 131 (34 games), 3.85 Shots Per Game

Adebayor 104 (36 games), 2.89 shots per game

Torres 96 (33 games), 2.9 shots per game

Gerrard 89 (34 games), 2.62 shots per game

Rooney 85 (27 games), 3.15 shots per game

Bentley 83 (36 games) 2.31 shots per game

Berbatov 82 (36 games), 2.28 shots per game

Tevez 82 (34 games), 2.41 shots per game

Carew 80 (32 games), 2.5 shots per game

Santa Cruz 77 (37 games), 2.08 shots per game

I don't have the full game and am basing this on Demo Patch which is same match engine as full patch, but the player statistics in the active full detail Premier League for the half season demo run looks much closer to those than FM 08 in terms of average shots on goal. It gets skewed most by one striker Van Persie but he often takes free kicks in game (too many tackles and too many fouls in the game in my opinion but that's another story).

So the macro statistics look about right. Again I don't mean this in an offensive way so if you feel the need to flame me bear in mind I won't get into arguments over who knows what about football, but consider those statistics versus Premier League statistics in your game. Sometimes our expectations of what should be happening get clouded by our perception of real life football and prior FM version experience.

[Andre75]

what I find worrying is that I tried to use world class strikers against low league teams/defenders. I saved the game and reaplyed using 12 different mixtures of formations/tactics.

And the results were really disappointing...yes, I did win the match and for ince I scored more than 1 goal or 2 but I find ridicolous that a striker like Ronaldo, Ibrahimovic or Kaka cannot manage to perform and score against very poor defenders.

And considering the normal game time I get the feeling that if my opponent scores a goal, chances are that I will not manage to come back and win 'cause I cannot get mi strikers to score.

[hiyaz]

what I find worrying is that I tried to use world class strikers against low league teams/defenders. I saved the game and reaplyed using 12 different mixtures of formations/tactics.

And the results were really disappointing...yes, I did win the match and for ince I scored more than 1 goal or 2 but I find ridicolous that a striker like Ronaldo, Ibrahimovic or Kaka cannot manage to perform and score against very poor defenders.

And considering the normal game time I get the feeling that if my opponent scores a goal, chances are that I will not manage to come back and win 'cause I cannot get mi strikers to score.

My game i have got Hunterlaar and Imbrahimovic upfront, Zlatan has got 25 goals in 27 games and Klaas has got 20 goals in 26 games, nothing wrong with the engine, maybe most of you are just poor managers.

[tingting]

you're welcome to not buy any more versions of FM and make your stand that way

Why should we not buy future versions of fm. We love the game and we want it to become <STRONG>the</STRONG> best soccer management game ever..not just the best in market. We are not asking SI to come and apologize or say which tactic is the best. We just want them to check this out and if its a bug then fix it as soon as possible rather than make us wait till february.

Previous versions of FM over-tweaked forwards scoring rate to 60-70% of the teams total. A perfect split in real world terms will see the forwards only scoring 50% of a teams total. Other players now score more and forwards less, which is how it should be.

wwfan..then does the team reflect real world form? just because the goal ratio has been spread out, then strikers should miss sitters because their limit is 50% of total goals scored? is it because of this that Rooney has only managed to score 1 goal in 19 matches so far just because he scored less than 20 goals last season? should i play Ronaldo as a striker because he scored 42 goals last season? We are creating clear cut chances...the strikers dont score. Now if all the other strikers were placed in great positions, then i surely they will be scoring a higher ratio of overall team goals?

[Fredric Drum]

My game i have got Hunterlaar and Imbrahimovic upfront, Zlatan has got 25 goals in 27 games and Klaas has got 20 goals in 26 games, nothing wrong with the engine, maybe most of you are just poor managers.

Wrong.

This is a game, people play it to enjoy (which means have success with a certain level of difficulty). Most people are not great managers. If you need to be a hardcore tinkerer to succeed in the game, most people will stop buying/playing it, i.e. the game will fail. It's essential for the game, which is an entertainment product for the masses, that "poor" managers can still attain success! The moment this stops being possible, the game is history because people won't spend money and lots of time being miserable in their spare time.

I don't know if FM has reached that point yet, as I'm still able to enjoy considerable success (and I'm not what I'd call hardcore tinkerer/analyst), but it's undoubtedly heading in that direction. Maybe FM10 will cross the line and become too realistic/difficult.