Tactical Theorems and Frameworks '08

[Law_Man]

*socialist should be sociological!!

[wwfan]

More of a Bauman man myself, as my location illustrates. Have read Giddens though.

My current research topic is embedded in the sociology of control and resistance, so Garland, although I haven't come across him, might be useful. Tend to bounce off Sloterdjik and Clegg. Surely if you wanted to understand the context of the penal system in UK modernism, then Foucault's Dicipline and Punish would be the major starting point, although I try to avoid dead French philosophers.

[heathxxx]

You two should have written the "Guide to team talks". If they deepen that side of the game, we're in good hands.

[Law_Man]

Originally posted by wwfan:

More of a Bauman man myself, as my location illustrates. Have read Giddens though.

My current research topic is embedded in the sociology of control and resistance, so Garland, although I haven't come across him, might be useful. Tend to bounce off Sloterdjik and Clegg. Surely if you wanted to understand the context of the penal system in UK modernism, then Foucault's Dicipline and Punish would be the major starting point, although I try to avoid dead French philosophers.

Are you in academia then wwfan? I thought either that, or some sort of "management consultant".... What's your research topic then? Happy to bounce some ideas around if you like

I read those (and other) books purely for an essay at Uni so I just read what was on the reading list, which was PLENTY.... So didn't get round to reading any dead French philosophers this time. but talking of dead French people...

I've also read a bit of Victor Hugo and Flaubert coz for A-level we read a book called "Flaubert's Parrot" by the very famous Julian Barnes - can't recommend it highly enough.

ps check your email....

[Law_Man]

Originally posted by heathxxx:

You two should have written the "Guide to team talks". If they deepen that side of the game, we're in good hands.

I'll take that as a compliment....

I definitely the man-management side of things is one of the most engaging and rewarding aspects of football management in real life!

[gunnerfan]

Originally posted by Law_Man:

*socialist should be sociological!!

There are those who would see no difference between the two.

[bluenose1]

Law Man - where did you do your law degree? just interested as to whether they were jurisprudence reading lists?

never thought i'd manage to slip 'jurisprudence' into an FM forum

sorry - back to topic now - quite enough obiter dictum for one day. lol

[Law_Man]

Originally posted by bluenose1:

Law Man - where did you do your law degree? just interested as to whether they were jurisprudence reading lists?

never thought i'd manage to slip 'jurisprudence' into an FM forum

sorry - back to topic now - quite enough obiter dictum for one day. lol

Cambridge - but the module was called 'Sentencing and the Penal System'. There was a juris option but I didn't do it. From people who I know who did, it wasn't really as modern and empirical as the books I mentioned above, it was more along the lines of Kant et al.

wwfan re the 'rule of thumb' guildines on OI you give above, do you do that every game? Do you see the OI as vital to success in FM08? And if you could, could you explain a bit more about the interplay with the standard tactical instructions, I'm thinking particularly marking and closing down here. Cheers

[Dexter St Jock]

Originally posted by Dexter St Jock:

ok so I'll test DC's on maybe 6 and FB's on 8 with the DMC going to about 10 and see how that goes.

wwfan I think I've cracked it, DC's on 6 in the counter works well, doesn't get them dragged out of position, pumped up the fullbacks to 8 which makes them close down the opposition winger however I have to be cautious when the opposition goes to their possesion tactic because their winger starts pumping in from deep which can kill us against good aerial strikers. The DMC is set now to 9 which makes him stay central and only close down when the MC's (who are set to 14) are overrun.

[Oeffel]

Hi all,

A great post, which really helped me to understand the game and the way tactics are supposed to be used.

Right now I'm managing Man Utd in their first season (with the 8.0.2 patch) and I'm doing quite well. I win most games without much effort and concede very little. My defence is definately the strong part of this side. I've created the tactics I us myself according to the tips and advice from this thread...

I wouldn't be posting here, of course, if everything was fine..

I know it's not so hard to win your games with a quality side like Man U, but there's thing that bothers me though:

I play a flat 4-4-2 and have about three tactics, based on these theorems and frameworks. I use a defensive/counter tactic for difficult awaygames, a control tactic and a home/attacking tactic for home games or easy away games. The only players that are not putting in performances are my two strikers (of course Tevez and Rooney). I'm not a top manager so it's probably my lack of FM-talent that I can't get these two top players to perform. I get most goals from standard situations like corners or direct free-kicks. Have to admit that I use a variation of the corner'bug'. So Pique, Ferdinand and Vidic do get their goals and save locked-up games. But that's my choice..

Is there a specific way I should be using Rooney or Tevez since they are players with comparable qualities. They're both FC's they both like to come deep to get the ball. Or are more managers struggling to play with Rooney and Tevez as a couple? Maybe the have a lack of space up front because Man Utd are title candidate and other teams play defensive so I have to play pressing?? I'm just speculating.. Maybe because the wingers don't give them usefull crosses, but of course C. Ronaldo and Marcelo or Nani are class..

In my tactic I don't have the TM option ticked. Maybe I should?

Here are some screenshots to visualize my 'problem':

My squad and the goals scored

My team instructions (I'll only give the home tactic team instructions, to make the problem a bit smaller and not give three different team- and playerinstructions for three tactics..)

Rooney's instructions and Tevez' instructions

Hope that's enough info to understand the striker-problem. More screenies for additional info can easily be made.

Hope you guys can offer a solution, or suggestions!

Cheers in advance!

[Oeffel]

Team instructions *take 2*

Dammit, wrong link... Another shot..

[wwfan]

It's your forward runs. Also, either one (definitely Tevez) or both should be Holding up BAll in the more atacking varieties. PLay around with the following until you find the best combo, which I assume will be Rarely/Mixed.

The Attacking Trio

Setting forward runs for the front three is vital in terms of getting the tactic to function but is more of an art than a science. The standard starting setting would be:

MCa: Often

FCd: Rarely

FCa: Mixed

However, they can be altered depending on player type and team requirement. A speedy FCa playing in a Counter or Defend system may be most effective with forward runs set to often, so he is always trying to break the offside trap and get behind the defensive line.

An FCd might also benefit from forward runs mixed in Defend or Counter systems, although the forward runs rarely will be vital in the more aggressive tactics. In those, his job will be to drop deep to link up play and/or pull his marker out of position so a team mate can exploit the space behind him. A lower mentality coupled with forward runs rarely should ensure that happening.

The MCa might be required to play a more defensive role for Defend or Counter systems entailing a mixed or rarely setting. Likewise, if he is a Playmaker, mixed or rarely might ensure he is in more space to receive the ball.

Getting these right for each system can be a matter of trial and error and often is related to the player type. It is pointless having a lazy playmaker making forward runs all the time whereas a hard working midfield dynamo can do it all day. If both strikers are speedy snipers and not suited for creative roles then it may be best to have them both making forward runs mixed/often. Just watch the offside count! Getting it right can turn a tactic from a semi-effective one to a world-beater so experiment as much as possible.

[vasilli07]

If i use a barrow on a FCd instead, would it be the same as putting him on rarely fwd runs?

[Rohan The Barbarian]

Excellent work wwfan

However, I was wondering if I could ask your advice. I am currently playing with Ipswich in Season 1 (8.0.2.). My tactic is working fantastically, I'm still unbeaten in all comps at Christmas. I even managed to thump Pompey 4-0 in the League Cup Quarters.

My issue is this: I don't concede a massive amount of goals, but a large proportion of the one that do find the net are from headers. My CB's have very good aerial stats, so thats not the problem. Any suggestions on how to plug up this goal leakage, particularly since we've opened up a decent gap at the top of the table, and will most certainly be promoted, and with the likes of Adebayor lurking in the Prem ready to exploit this weakness, goals conceded from headers are a growing concern.

I am playing with a flat 4-4-2 formation, but with a barrow on one CM and ST, with low Creative Freedom across the board, apart from the wingers and the other CM and ST.

Thanks for any help

[TGD]

this is amazing wwfan. I remember reading your fm 07 thread and it helped me a lot. Even though I have been successful on fm 08 this thread still shows I have a lot to learn. Great read!

[gunnerfan]

Originally posted by vasilli07:

If i use a barrow on a FCd instead, would it be the same as putting him on rarely fwd runs?

No. A b-arrow is telling your FCd to drop back more deeply to help defend when the other team has the ball. The slider for fwd runs is what controls that aspect of his game, so if you have it set on "mixed" and he is b-arrowed, what you are telling him is to make forward runs about half the time, but he has to make them from deeper in his own zone upon transition from defense to offense. It will likely cause him to tire faster so you have to substitute him sooner.

[vasilli07]

Thanks for the reply, gunnerfan.

[gunnerfan]

My pleasure, Vasilli.

Actually, your question has gotten me thinking. I just began my second season at Shamrock Rovers, and my FCd is mediocre at best. Lately, I notice that when I use him as a TM, he seems to get closed down rather quickly if he holds the ball. I'm thinking that if I b-arrow him, it will drop him further back into space and may give him more room to operate (more space=more time to make a play). It will probably cut down on the amount of times he takes on DCs, but he doesn't do that too often, anyway.

Any thoughts, wwfan?

[wwfan]

Originally posted by gunnerfan:

My pleasure, Vasilli.

Actually, your question has gotten me thinking. I just began my second season at Shamrock Rovers, and my FCd is mediocre at best. Lately, I notice that when I use him as a TM, he seems to get closed down rather quickly if he holds the ball. I'm thinking that if I b-arrow him, it will drop him further back into space and may give him more room to operate (more space=more time to make a play). It will probably cut down on the amount of times he takes on DCs, but he doesn't do that too often, anyway.

Any thoughts, wwfan?

Worth a try. Lowering his CD and making sure he's loose marking might also help, if you've not done that already.

[saab693]

Hi wwfan

I have created a set of 5 tactics all based on a 4-2-3-1 formation. Here's the formation layout

4231

I'm a huge fan of TT&F but i cannot for the life of me get this tactic set up right! Short of posting every relevant screenshot I'm not exactly sure how best to seek help but as far as I'm aware I've followed the bible to the letter. If you have any thoughts on why the frameworks may need altering for this formation please do let me know. I'm open to any suggestions and will happily upload the tactics if that helps.

Thanks for your time

[Dexter St Jock]

Have you tried having MC's instead of DMC's? I think playing a DMC in this version makes them fall too far back and the MC's can get off a apass before the midfielder actually closes them down.

[saab693]

Originally posted by Dexter St Jock:

Have you tried having MC's instead of DMC's? I think playing a DMC in this version makes them fall too far back and the MC's can get off a apass before the midfielder actually closes them down.

Tried it out with MCs, barrowing them into the DMC position. Lost narrowly away 1-0. I'm 2nd and the other team were 14th, so I tried out my Balanced tactic and my Counter version but to no luck!

[wwfan]

I think your biggest issue is likely to be the DMCs closing down instructions. They will need to be reasonably high in order to have them competing for the ball in the right areas.

I have uploaded my tactic set at FMB if you need to have a quick look/see at how I have my 4-4-2 set up.

[saab693]

Originally posted by wwfan:

I think your biggest issue is likely to be the DMCs closing down instructions. They will need to be reasonably high in order to have them competing for the ball in the right areas.

I have uploaded my tactic set at FMB if you need to have a quick look/see at how I have my 4-4-2 set up.

Thanks, I did try out the new counter and balanced version of that tactic set as well to see how I fared! I'm not convinced my players are good enough for such specific instructions. They certainly dont seem good enough to have hard tackling on, sendings off a plenty!

Still not fully confident with this game yet, its testing me

[Dexter St Jock]

Maybe you're going to have to use OI and single out the midfield for hard tackling and closing down?

[llama3]

just want to say thanks to wwfan, i have now been able to find tactics to beat other big english sides, as it is my beloved arsenal are looking dangeorus even without 5 key attackers! i have a balanced system which i use as default, but can alter depending on the circumstances between the 5: Defend, Counter, Balanced, Control and Attack

[wwfan]

Originally posted by llama3:

just want to say thanks to wwfan, i have now been able to find tactics to beat other big english sides, as it is my beloved arsenal are looking dangeorus even without 5 key attackers! i have a balanced system which i use as default, but can alter depending on the circumstances between the 5: Defend, Counter, Balanced, Control and Attack

Glad you are having success.

[Rico73]

Originally posted by gunnerfan:

How are you watching the games? When things are going well, I tend to watch on extended highlights, but when there are problems, watching full match is sometimes the only way to see what is happening. It may be that you need to tweak something.

Further up the thread, I discussed a problem I was having in that I couldn't get my forwards to penetrate my opponents' back line. wwfan made some suggestions that helped. Watch a match that isn't going well and see what's going wrong on the pitch.

I have been away on holiday for a couple of weeks so was itching to get back and start playing FM again, I have found the same issue as before in that I am drawing or losing games that I am totally dominating. Ironically after 15 games into the season when the media give a report on your management the report said that I had got my team firing on all cylinders, now I can't buy a goal!! As before though the players morale and ratings for games is still good with mostly 7's & 8's!! I think that I may have to re-jig my tactics as I'm sure that it's down to that!

[Saint_Mirren]

Well thank you wwfan and other contributors to this thread, after some serious reading, I think Im ready to finally try creating my own tactics based on your advice. FM 08 has been killing me this year, just not been able to sustain any success at all (usually crashing and burning around Christmas) I was ready to chuck it in the bin and give up til I forced myself back for some tips and found this awesome page.

So Ive started a new game at QPR and fingers crossed I can start getting my addictiveness back up. Much to the dismay of my missus!

No doubt I will be back tomorrow my initial enthusiasm gone after a few pumpings and begging for some help!

[wwfan]

You are going to need to give the TT&F approach roughly three seasons as it does take time to adapt to it, especially if you are used to winning with one or two tactics. To start with, you will make team talk mistakes and pick the wrong version. Recognising this is key, hence my spotlighting the decision making aspect.

However, when you begin to understand what is happening, it is incredibly rewarding. Good luck. Hope the addiction returns

[Law_Man]

Originally posted by wwfan:

You are going to need to give the TT&F approach roughly three seasons as it does take time to adapt to it, especially if you are used to winning with one or two tactics. To start with, you will make team talk mistakes and pick the wrong version. Recognising this is key, hence my spotlighting the decision making aspect.

However, when you begin to understand what is happening, it is incredibly rewarding. Good luck. Hope the addiction returns

I can't endorse the above enough. On both FM07 and FM08 I messed about lots creating engine busting tactics and then feeling unfulfilled when success came and frustrated when I didn't know why I failed in certain games.

Both years, I've done the above until wwfan released his final TT&F set. And in the beginning you won't win as much (because you're not exploiting as many flaws in the engine and because you need to get a 'feel' for things) but you will begin to know why you lost when you lose, and it feels much better when you win.

[Rico73]

Right so I spent hours (and I mean hours) adjusting all my tactics last night and have made a note of every single setting so that any adjustments will be easy to understand and keep a track of. I spent so long adjusting things that I could only play three games before I had to get some sleep or risk still being awake when the mrs got up for work! However I got three good results, two good wins in the Premiership and a great 2-2 draw away at Inter in the CL to go through on away goals. Early days yet and I'm sure I'll still make mistakes with my team talks etc but very positive. I think that the main thing about TT&F is that you feel so rewarded when you get the right results as you know that it's not a 'super tactic' or that you've used flaws in the AI to get the result. Great work wwfan, probably the best, most informative thread on FM.

[KingRoyston]

wwfan, it's been said a lot but i'll repeat it anyway - fantastic thread and insight into the game - a facinating read and it's got me enthused about the game again.

I champing at the bit to use this framework and your findings to create my own set of tactics but would like to see how they can be alined with a formation that has more advantages against the AI.

In your testing and experience, which formation (and one that is actually used in real-life football) do you feel gives the AI most problems?

[gunnerfan]

Originally posted by wwfan:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gunnerfan:

My pleasure, Vasilli.

Actually, your question has gotten me thinking. I just began my second season at Shamrock Rovers, and my FCd is mediocre at best. Lately, I notice that when I use him as a TM, he seems to get closed down rather quickly if he holds the ball. I'm thinking that if I b-arrow him, it will drop him further back into space and may give him more room to operate (more space=more time to make a play). It will probably cut down on the amount of times he takes on DCs, but he doesn't do that too often, anyway.

Any thoughts, wwfan?

Worth a try. Lowering his CD and making sure he's loose marking might also help, if you've not done that already. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have, actually. And I've tried b-arrowing him, but so far it seems to result in him getting lost in the midfield. I'm going to keep trying, while tweaking both his mentality setting and his CF.

[gunnerfan]

Times like this, I really wish there was a slider for "check to the ball".

[Dexter St Jock]

Originally posted by KingRoyston:

In your testing and experience, which formation (and one that is actually used in real-life football) do you feel gives the AI most problems?

I think that if you do have the right players a sort of 4-2-3-1 could be most harmful to the AI. I've tested quite a few formations and looking back I would say if I'd spent more time on the 4-2-3-1 it would of been quite good

[llama3]

Originally posted by wwfan:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by llama3:

just want to say thanks to wwfan, i have now been able to find tactics to beat other big english sides, as it is my beloved arsenal are looking dangeorus even without 5 key attackers! i have a balanced system which i use as default, but can alter depending on the circumstances between the 5: Defend, Counter, Balanced, Control and Attack

its not like i have been devoid of success before, but my problem is well summed up by the fact i have won the champions league more times on FM08 than i have the premier league. but now i have a new dimension to my team

Glad you are having success. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[llama3]

Originally posted by Dexter St Jock:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KingRoyston:

In your testing and experience, which formation (and one that is actually used in real-life football) do you feel gives the AI most problems?

I think that if you do have the right players a sort of 4-2-3-1 could be most harmful to the AI. I've tested quite a few formations and looking back I would say if I'd spent more time on the 4-2-3-1 it would of been quite good </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

personally i would say that harmful is relative to what you want to achieve. if you want to create a solid defence to stifle your opponents, a 4-5-1 or a 4-1-4-1 have both been hugely successful for me

[wwfan]

I don't really want to go into detail about how the engine can be exploited, as it destroys the whole point of writing TT&F. However, if I were to try and exploit it, I would use a 4-4-2 Diamond plus a series of farrows and sarrows. The over-success of the AMC is well-documented, as is the success of narrow tactics.

Put the OPs and that together and you could easily build an exploitative TT&F set, and pretty much hammer the engine into submission. I don't really want to go into any further detail than that.

[Saint_Mirren]

Originally posted by wwfan:

You are going to need to give the TT&F approach roughly three seasons as it does take time to adapt to it, especially if you are used to winning with one or two tactics. To start with, you will make team talk mistakes and pick the wrong version. Recognising this is key, hence my spotlighting the decision making aspect.

However, when you begin to understand what is happening, it is incredibly rewarding. Good luck. Hope the addiction returns

I told you I would be back with questions!

Ok played the game for 7 hours last night, set up my 5 tactics and started a game with QPR. I have played 6 pre season friendlies, a league match and a league cup match.

My problems only seem to be the 4-2-4 formation that the AI goes to in final moments. So far this has caused me to draw 3-3 with Chievo in pre-season friendly after leading 2-0 and 3-1. Lost 3-2 to Derby and 1-0 Newcastle also in pre season friendlies despite having most of the play only to go down to last min goals. Now granted each of these teams were favs for the game and it might just be that they beat me with superior players and the fact that my QPR team is almost a completely new first eleven.

In the Chievo and Derby games I started counter before switching to defend at end. Against Newcastle I started as defend, switched to counter about 30 mins, back to defend for second half and when i was containing them with no problem I went to attack and dominated the last 30 mins before they went to 4-2-4 in final moments and before I had a chance to change tactics they equalised.

After all that typing I finally get to my question, which is what OI do you use on the front 4 in the AI tactic?

In general I put tight marking on the front 6 of my opponents regardless of who they are. If they are totally one footed I set them showed onto the wrong foot. If low bravery I put on hard tackling. I had not used closing down at this point. Aside from the Newcastle game I had made the OI changes after the AI tactical change before any goals were scored.

On my first league game I was home to Scunthorpe and was fav to win. On this occasion I tight marked front two and midfield two and closed down the wingers, I started on my attack tactic, this back fired as I lost a goal immediately after their winger skinned my full back. Then conceded several chances as both their wingers skinned my full backs. I changed to tight mark the wingers and to a counter tactic and I equalised, they then took lead shortly before half time with a corner (grrrr) however in second half I had upper hand and equalised late on.

I maybe hasty in asking for help already, I havent played many games but I want to start this season right and sort out my tactical approach on the 4-2-4 before the season gets into full swing. So any advice from anyone on this matter would be most appreciated.

On a side note I had a sweet experience in the league cup using my tactical framework, away to Orient and only slight favs so I start defend nothing happens for half hour, change to counter and score immediately, straight back to defend, nothing happens again til 75 mins when they go more attacking and create a couple of chances so i again change to counter and a second goal duly comes in the 81 min. I then go defend again to close out game. Very fulfilling when your changes bring instant success during a match

[swash]

Saint Mirren - have a look at Rashidi's 4-4-2 thread, and he explains what he does with OI to counter the 4-2-4, I have been following his advice and it seems to work well.

[Saint_Mirren]

Originally posted by swash:

Saint Mirren - have a look at Rashidi's 4-4-2 thread, and he explains what he does with OI to counter the 4-2-4, I have been following his advice and it seems to work well.

Cheers Swash, I shall check that out as soon as my boss averts his eyes for 15 mins

[Saint_Mirren]

Well did I learn a lesson the hard way, was cursing my tactics after I dropped to bottom of table one win in 10 games, until I made the simple change of specific marking the 2 forwards (before I was just tight marking them) now won last 4 on trot. And even that dreaded 4-2-4 hasnt worked for AI in these games!

[wwfan]

I don't think tight marking the front six as a default is a good idea at all. For aggressive, high-line tactics, it will reduce your attacking opportunity and leave you open to the counter. Basically, you are allowing the opposing FCs to play on the shoulder of the defence which, with a high line, will make you hugely vulnerable to the ball over the top. If you loose mark, the DCs will keep space between them and the players they are marking, which stops that from happening.

Tight marking is good for narrow, defensive mentality tactics. Loose marking for wider, aggressive tactics. The only players (max two) you should tight mark when playing aggressively are key midfielders, to stop them from having any chance to dictate play.

[Saint_Mirren]

Originally posted by wwfan:

I don't think tight marking the front six as a default is a good idea at all. For aggressive, high-line tactics, it will reduce your attacking opportunity and leave you open to the counter. Basically, you are allowing the opposing FCs to play on the shoulder of the defence which, with a high line, will make you hugely vulnerable to the ball over the top. If you loose mark, the DCs will keep space between them and the players they are marking, which stops that from happening.

Tight marking is good for narrow, defensive mentality tactics. Loose marking for wider, aggressive tactics. The only players (max two) you should tight mark when playing aggressively are key midfielders, to stop them from having any chance to dictate play.

Would you use closing down always on these players when playing a more attacking formation?

[wwfan]

I'd only use the CD always OI on a slow player, as doing it across the board will pull all your players out of position and leave huge gaps in the defence. I tend to CD always one player per strata at the most, and they have to be slow.

[ron.e]

wwfan - Thankyou for your interesting post concerning tactics. I have to say that you've restored my faith in fm08. I've started a new season with palace and i for the first time there's an obvious cohesion with the players. I'm now keeping clean sheets and i'm loving it. I don't know how long this good run of form will last but i plan to stick it out and try to turn things around if it does go wrong. I have also realised that i have to take some responsible if things to go wrong and try and change them. But can you give me any more tips about how to realise when things are going wrong in terms watching a match in either key or extended highlights? Thanks

[heathxxx]

Originally posted by wwfan:

I don't think tight marking the front six as a default is a good idea at all. For aggressive, high-line tactics, it will reduce your attacking opportunity and leave you open to the counter. Basically, you are allowing the opposing FCs to play on the shoulder of the defence which, with a high line, will make you hugely vulnerable to the ball over the top. If you loose mark, the DCs will keep space between them and the players they are marking, which stops that from happening.

Tight marking is good for narrow, defensive mentality tactics. Loose marking for wider, aggressive tactics. The only players (max two) you should tight mark when playing aggressively are key midfielders, to stop them from having any chance to dictate play.

I only tight/man-mark two players, but they're the two strikers in a 4-4-2 with my centre-backs, or the striker and the AMC in a solo-striker formation, with a centre-back and DMC, with my spare centre-back on zonal/loose.

I close down creative central midfielders, rather than tight mark, because I play wider, rather than narrow and find that tight marking them, reduces my counter attacking optiojns somewhat.

[wwfan]

Tight marking is always risky with a high line. I tend to 'weaker foot' MCs so they find it more difficult to surge past my MCs into space. CD Always is fine if they are slow, but incredibly risky if they are fast and skillful.

@ ron.e: Gald you enjoyed it. Hope it brings you playing joy

Watching the midfield battle is key to reading the 2d. If your MCs are not fighting for the ball in the right areas, you will see one of two things:

1: They get easily bypassed by TBs and have to work hard to get ball side (CD too high)

2: They sit too deep allowing the opposing midfield to ping the ball around near the edge of the area (CD too low)

If you get it right, they will fight for every ball in midfield, which allows you to a: keep defensive shape and b: launch a quick counter should you win a battle in the right area.

[footynut]

Originally posted by wwfan:

Tight marking is always risky with a high line. I tend to 'weaker foot' MCs so they find it more difficult to surge past my MCs into space. CD Always is fine if they are slow, but incredibly risky if they are fast and skillful.

@ ron.e: Gald you enjoyed it. Hope it brings you playing joy

Watching the midfield battle is key to reading the 2d. If your MCs are not fighting for the ball in the right areas, you will see one of two things:

1: They get easily bypassed by TBs and have to work hard to get ball side (CD too high)

2: They sit too deep allowing the opposing midfield to ping the ball around near the edge of the area (CD too low)

If you get it right, they will fight for every ball in midfield, which allows you to a: keep defensive shape and b: launch a quick counter should you win a battle in the right area.

I'm not sure about this. I think it all depends on the players you have. I've been playing aggresively with a high defensive line and tight marking the opposition front 2/4 and have had good success. Started with Shrewsbury Town: 1st season reached play-offs, 2nd season promoted as runner up, 3rd season currently 6th after predited to finished bottom!

I have one very quick centre back which always helps if caught out.