Tactical Theorems and Frameworks '08

[John Swarbrick]

I've been experimenting with the idea of a 'DCa' and a 'DCd'. The thought of giving one DC a higher mentality than the other, having him mixed forward runs and mixed run with the ball for Attack, Control, and Balanced, and a slightly higher closing down. How could I implement something similar with say, Ferdinand and Vidic. Rio often brings the balls out of defence up to the midfield especially at home, while Vidic always stays back. Like with an MCa and an MCd, the MCd should have slightly lower closing down so if MCa misses the tackle the MCd is in position to cover. (This was what you told me for a reply on one of my last posts).

So working with my idea of everything being systematic, the RoO midpoint for Attack is 16. So I was wondering about these closing down settings.

Fullbacks: 16 - 4 = 12.

Rio (DCa): 16 - 4 - 2 = 10.

Vidic (DCd): 16 - 4 - 4 = 8.

This make any sense wwfan? Do teams in real life play similar to this with the centre backs?

[Justified]

Just a question Jaswarbrick, if you play with a DCa and DCd do you swap the FCd's mentality with the DCa's?

[John Swarbrick]

Good question Justified. I haven't experimented with the mentality yet but at the moment (when the DC's mentalities are both the same, i swapped my FCd mentality with the DC mentality). I don't see any reason why that should be changed and so having a mentality set up like this:

DCd: 14

DCa: 15

FCd: 14

would probably suffice. Let's see what wwfan thinks as well. Also what are your thoughts Justified?

[Justified]

My thought is that the split between the DC's is not big enough to actually show anything different in the ME. I guess the FWRD Runs Mixed would help him run into space to help build up attacks. However a bigger split might see some good stopper/sweeper action going on in defence. Maybe this could be better?

DCd 14

DCa 16

MCd 14

That way the DCa would be would swap mentalities with the MCd so in attack he'll be more active and in defence he'd push up leaving enough time for the MCd to help defend and the DCd to take a sweeper position?

[John Swarbrick]

Oh, now you're talking about the MCd as apposed to the FCd? Sorry, i'm a little confused. Well let's leave the discussion of the FCd and just say that it's fine to leave him at 14 which would be the same as the DCd.

As for the MCd, I think that makes good sense to have him the same as the DCd to sort of solidify the defence a bit more. If we are having the DCa push out of defence more often then we are leaving ourselves ~half a man short so the MCd should cover well. But I think the DCa should be at the same side as the MCd or else you'd get one side covered by the DCd and the MCd and the other side left open to exploit. Like this:

-----------------------------------

FB------MCd---------DCa---------FB

--------DCd-----------------------

-------(Cover)----(Lack of cover)---

So in this case the right-hand side is not covered by anyone so the DCa needs to be the same side of the pitch as the MCd, and the DCd the same side as the MCa.

Interestingly, do you notice what we've done Justified with the mentalities of the DCd, the MCd, and the FCd? We now have some sort of 'semi-global' mentality setup going on now between 3 players. (Assuming of course we have the FCd the same as the DCd).

We could go off at tangents, but it would be interesting to have the same sort of semi-global setup going on with the DCa, the MCa, and the FCa wouldn't it?

[Justified]

But a DCd on a lower mentality and zonal marking would never take up such a position because if the DCa moves up to press the DCd would cover centrally not left of center.

[John Swarbrick]

So are you saying it doesn't matter if the DCa is the same side as the MCd? Or something else?

[wwfan]

I remeber somebody trying to this either earlier in FM08 or later in FM07. He was trying to create the Liverpool tactic of the 80s, when Alan Hansen would win the ball deep and take it to the half way line before making an attacking pass. He tried, from memory, a higher mentality (say 8 DCd -14DCa), high CF, free role, RWB mixed. He had it working quite well.

In real life, this largely worked because both Hansen and Lawrenson were so good. Hansen with his reading of the game and Lawrenson with his pace and athleticism, so he could cover behind Hansen. Molby also stayed deep. It would certianly be a worthwhile experiment before FM09 is released. If you can get it working in 08 and can translate it to 09, then we can immediately have some interesting options to play with.

[John Swarbrick]

Thanks for the reply wwfan, will give it a go with Ferdinand and Vidic.

Just a thought about free roles. You mentioned that it gives the player a 'liscense' to roam attacking areas. So in a Control version, could this not be given to 7-8 players? The fullbacks will get forward alot in Control so this is similar to roaming attacking areas. The DCa will get forward to the half-way line, the wingers who already will have free roles, the MCa will also roam attacking areas, and the FCd and maybe the FCa as well?

[wwfan]

Experiment away. It may result in a fantastic, free flowing tactic. It may result in chaos. However, if you don't try, you'll never know.

All of my ideas came from similar experiments. I then made notes of what worked and what didn't.

[John Swarbrick]

Just another thought on the free role for the FCd and a free role for an FCa. The players I have the most trouble with setting up tactical instructions for are definately the strikers. I didn't know about giving the FCd a lower mentality to help build up play. I still don't know if the FCa should be given extra mentality notches for Counter, Balanced and Defend. Whether the FCd should have more passing than the FCa, whether the FCa should have higher closing down than the FCd, the same, or the FCd should be higher, etc. etc.

Whereas for other positions it's alot more clearer.

About the free roles, shouldn't an FCd be given a liscence for more 'defensive' areas rather than attacking ones? He drops out of attack in the hole between midfield and attack, so a free role would make him more an 'in the box' player wouldn't it? Rather than being more helpful in the build-up. But an FCa doesn't really need to help out much with the build-up, maybe a little, but a lot less more than an FCd. So would it make more sense to give a free role to the FCa because he will be roaming more attacking areas. Or do free roles affect other things as well?

[John Swarbrick]

Any response wwfan? Sorry for the hassle but i'm itching here lol.

[wwfan]

Sorry. Been experimenting on the above with the FML engine.

I have found that free role for the MCa and FCd is very useful in terms of being able to build a fluid looking attack with the FCa at spear point (i.e extra mentality notches). My FCa exploits channels, so he drifts wide and, with free roles, the MCa/FCd move into the central space in a manner they didn't do previously. However, the FCd also looks to drop deep when the ball in in other areas. Free role sems to be adding to his overall effectiveness.

As for the CD/marking, in FML it seems that tight marking/high CD FCs + narrow/short pitch is extremely effective. A huge number of people use settings of this type. I actually think it is overly effective on big pitches as well and will be aiming to have that looked at. As long as you have high stamina and quick FCs, I'd do it.

Passing: may be worth experimenting with shorter passing for the FCd with long passing for the FCa, making him basically go for goal most of the time as a long pass simply isn't on. Only an idea and might not work. He might just boot it into touch. In general I have alsways used shorter passing the higher up the pitch I go, but have noticed recently that wingers tend to be more effective with slightly longer passing. I have reworked settings for wingers in conjunction with their supporting midfielder and FC type, but won't write much about it untl TT&F 09. However, it should be simple to work out. If your winger is supporting an FC rushing forward, then his pass type will be differnt than if he is supporting one that drops deeper.

As before, experiment.

[John Swarbrick]

Wwfan, sorry to bother you with so many questions. But, as of now, the partnership of the DCa and the DCd works pretty well using Ferdinand as the DCa and Vidic as the DCd. Rio often gets over the half way line and often past the MCd who holds up the ball and has almost nearly scored from open play as well as providing some defence-splitting passes.

Just one really important question. I've read some articles saying that Rio and Vidic's partnership is made up of Vidic going in for the 'no-nonsense' tackle first, while Rio will 'sweep' up the through balls. Does this mean that Vidic should have a higher closing down than Rio? Even though Rio will have a higher mentality and be further up the pitch more often than Vidic?

Also, the term 'sweep' up through balls? This isn't related to the Sweeper position, is it?

[John Swarbrick]

Could you also explain how these typical central defensive partnerships work in real-life without using numbers also?

Very much appreciated.

[wwfan]

You are really trying to test the ME to its limits here. The system you are trying to develop is similar to Justified's Nike defence, in which the back four lines up in a similar manner to the Nike logo. One DC is the destroyer (the big, strong one) whose job it is to stop the spearhead striker from playing whereas his more athletic, better game reading counterpart stays deeper to pick up the balls into space. That is perfectly doable in the FM ME. However, trying to have the deeper lying DC then move into an attacking position with the ball may stretch it to far, although free role, FWRs, RWB and high CF might help.

[vasilli07]

wwfan, any advice to stop man utd 4-2-3-1? 2 midfielders, 3 att-midfielders and 1 striker.

I am using your tactics(the one u posted in fm britain) and i tried marking the central att-midfielder with my def cm but he is still creating alot for the lone striker.

[John Swarbrick]

I THINK it is stoppable, presuming you are using a 4-4-2, by specific marking your MCd to their central AMC. Now, say if your MCd plays as your MCR (the right side MC), you then get your FCd to specific mark their MCL. If your MCd plays as the MCL (the left sided MC), you get your FCd to specific mark their MCR. Doing this, you have your centre backs on their FC, your fullbacks on their wide AMCs, your MCd on their central AMC, your MCa on one of their MCs, and your FCd on their other MC.

Hope this helps! Oh, and I don't think that man marking works on a lone FC, but I can't be sure. I think Cleon mentioned it. So change them to zonal.

[TheBetterHalf]

When I play United and their 4231( me being a normal-good team) my aim is always to stop the likes of Ronaldo (The AMCr,and l) of creating space for himself and his partners. I always tight manmark him with my FB and show him down the line, away from goal(AMCr on right foot in OI and AMCl on left). This way,also playing abit more narrow and no forward runs on the FB´s, if the instructions are carried out correctly by my FB´s they will try to get on the inside of the AMCr,l. This also isolates the central attacking force, less t-balls are played in the hole between my DC´s to feed the FC who I put on "tigh mark , hard tackle and weak foot" in the OI.

I have also tried using these OI and marking instructions when managing Luton, first season, in the FA Cup against United. It backfired in all 10 matches(reloaded), got beaten 8-0, 8-1 etc, instead of 4-1, 3-0 etc. My crap defenders just could not do it and got out of position and made it worse

[John Swarbrick]

Try what I suggested to vasilli07 TheBetterHalf. If Ronaldo swaps position with the AMCl then it could drag your defence all over the place. I think it can turn into more of a problem than a solution if you try and man mark these two. Just let the fullbacks zonal mark the AMCl and AMCr so they don't get dragged. You might want to barrow your MCd to the DMC position, but since you're specific marking him to the central AMC, the barrow isn't needed, but might help a bit. Spec. mark your MCd to the central AMC, spec. mark your FCd to their MC (the side that your MCd that has left the gap at, so you don't have your FCd and your MCa marking the same player on the same side of the pitch), and that should work.

[TheBetterHalf]

@Jaswarbrick

Very good point about the Zonal instead of man-marking, something that I forgot to mention, that´s what i do if they swap positions( although United don´t do this in first 45 minutes in my saves !).

I have actually won more than lost playing against United in the EPL using my setup with man-marking. But the experiment with Luton suggests that if having crap players, OI like this tend to backfire 10 times out of 10(regardless marking system)

[John Swarbrick]

No matter how much tactic advice I give about marking or closing down, the fact that Luton don't have the quality players often won't compensate no matter how good the tactic design. If you have five versions (Defend, Counter, Balanced, Attack, Control) I can give some closing down numbers to make your defence more stable if you wish. Also some marking suggestions. Up to you.

[John Swarbrick]

You are really trying to test the ME to its limits here. The system you are trying to develop is similar to Justified's Nike defence, in which the back four lines up in a similar manner to the Nike logo. One DC is the destroyer (the big, strong one) whose job it is to stop the spearhead striker from playing whereas his more athletic, better game reading counterpart stays deeper to pick up the balls into space. That is perfectly doable in the FM ME. However, trying to have the deeper lying DC then move into an attacking position with the ball may stretch it to far, although free role, FWRs, RWB and high CF might help.

First, I want to give two suggestions for TT&F '09. The first is about forward's mentality setting in a Control tactic. The second is about creative freedom.

Since you mentioned that both forwards must hold up the ball in a Control based tactic, I find it makes sense to have both forwards on the REVERSE end of the RoO scale. i.e. Both forwards on 14 mentality for Control. It makes sense as if you have your FCd on 14 to help the build up play, you also have your other striker helping the build up play. You said yourself that Control is not supposed to have many one-on-one chances because the wingers and forwards will hold up the ball, and it is better to overload the box with players. This won't make him less effective. He will hold it up, pass to a winger, or an advancing fullback, or a MCa instead of going for goal (because of his reduced mentality), and thus should have much less 'snap-shots' improving the quality of build up play. Thus, for Control, both forwards should have 14 mentality.

Secondly. My linking mechanism works for creative freedom the following way:

Control: All players on 'Flair attribute + 4' Creative Freedom setting

Attack: All players on 'Flair attribute + 2' Creative Freedom setting

Balanced: All players on 'Flair attribute' Creative Freedom setting

Counter: All players on 'Flair attribute - 2' Creative Freedom setting

Defend: All players on 'Flair attribute - 4' Creative Freedom setting

It totally makes sense, because flair is an individual attribute and not really a team one. Something like closing down, is a team attribute, because if one defender closes down all over the pitch, the whole TEAM's shape is lost. But flair, you can rely on an individual to create a chance for your team. Hopefully wwfan, this makes sense to you.

Oh and about the DCa. I have Ferdinand on 'Often' forward runs, run with ball, free role, 'flair + 4' creative freedom. I have even seen him reach nearly at the opposition box and set up a goal, which is very promising. While Vidic, the DCd, and my MCd stay back.

I like testing the match engine to the extreme. Why not?

[TheBetterHalf]

No matter how much tactic advice I give about marking or closing down, the fact that Luton don't have the quality players often won't compensate no matter how good the tactic design. If you have five versions (Defend, Counter, Balanced, Attack, Control) I can give some closing down numbers to make your defence more stable if you wish. Also some marking suggestions. Up to you.

Thats very kind of you but I think that you perhaps missunderstod me.I have no defensive issues at all. With great help from people(like yourself) here at SI, I have constructed a very nice set.

The "luton thing" was merely a sidenote (that my tactical advice playing against united don´t work with crap players,only tested with EPL-players with succes.)

[peter_b]

great thread wwfan

it's really inspired me to develop my own tactics

one question i have is on the use of the 'mixed' option when setting sliders and how players from lower leagues respond to this. i'll explain.

i'm playing as chippenham in the BSP, needless to say my players aren't very good. if i have a winger and i set his RWB slider to mixed, what exactly am i instructing him to do?

my assumption is that, effectively i'm saying to him, don't always run with the ball, mix it up, run with the ball when you feel you should.

if this assumption is correct, then does a player's decisions rating come in to play?

if i'm telling a player it's up to him to decide when to run with the ball and he has a poor decisions rating, will he decide to run with ball at the wrong time, thus losing possession, will he choose not to run with the ball when he should, or will he just stand there trying to decide if he should or should not run with the ball?

my next question then becomes, for lower league players is it best just to tell them exactly what to do in a tactic, so they don't have to decide for themselves (assuming they have poor decisions ratings).

or...am i just complicating things?

[matt10]

Great Stuff wwfan !!

Here is how i am doing so far.

http://i35.tinypic.com/2e1vh5f.jpg

I've only lost 2 games so far, both against Chelsea, although i have played them 6 times ! (W2 D2 L2).

They play the following formation.

http://i36.tinypic.com/282eyq8.jpg

I struggle against them when they play this formation but when they play their 4-4-2 diamond i'm able to dominate them quite comfortably, any tips on how i can counter the above formation, e.g what tactic i should be using home/away and any specific marking i should be doing etc.

Thanks and keep up the good work.

[John Swarbrick]

Specific mark your MCd to their AMC (Lampard in this case). If your MCd plays as your MCR (as in your right-sided MC), then specific mark your FCd to their MCL (Essien in this case). And if your MCd plays as your MCL (left-sided MC), specific mark your FCd to their MCR (Mikel in this case.

Change your centre-backs marking to zonal marking instead of man against the lone striker.

Now your centre backs are marking their lone striker, the fullbacks are marking their AML and their AMR, your MCd is marking their AMC, and your MCa and your FCd are marking their centre mids.

Hope this helps!

[matt10]

Cheers Jaswarbrick.

What formation would you recomend i use playing against that formation away from home ?

At home its not a problem because they play the diamond and i can beat them comfortably.

[wwfan]

Extending TT&F into the audio realm.

Part of this explains how I want TT&F to evolve for 2009. The rest discusses new features in FM09, how certain developments might reflect on tactics and why water-polo is rubbish.

[John Swarbrick]

Reply to my theories about creative freedom and stuff please!

[millwallrules]

Extending TT&F into the audio realm.

Part of this explains how I want TT&F to evolve for 2009. The rest discusses new features in FM09, how certain developments might reflect on tactics and why water-polo is rubbish.

Nice Podcast and I love the new version of the upcoming Tactical Bible. BTW Rugby is only popular in Sydney and Queensland, whilse in all other states AFL is popular

[wwfan]

Nice Podcast and I love the new version of the upcoming Tactical Bible. BTW Rugby is only popular in Sydney and Queensland, whilse in all other states AFL is popular

So I have now been informed. Lots All the Sydneysiders were lying to me!!

Jaswarbrick: I like the CF system. It is logical and obviously works. Sorry for struggling with feedback recently, but I'm focusing on new ideas and development. TT&F 09 should see me being able to offer much more support.

[wwfan]

Tactical Theorems and Frameworks ‘09

FM-Britain’s leading tactical thread has been totally rewritten to take into account the significant match engine improvements over the FML and FM’09 Beta tests. While its main priorities are to maintain its focus on producing realistic looking football and to facilitate the switch to the arrowless engine, it has expanded in scope to include the following:

Manager Style: different mentality systems suitable for different managerial styles. From Mourinho to Keegan, TT&F’09 has a mentality system that emulates an equivalent tactical and managerial philosophy.

Translating the Sliders: simplified explanations of how the sliders work and minimal focus on slider notch numbers provide a better method of translating real-world football ideas into the slider system

Match Strategies: five easy to design match strategies that slot into whichever managerial philosophy you choose to follow

Player Roles: understanding different player roles and how they interlink within the different match strategies

Choosing your Pitch Size: what type of tactic best fits with your home pitch and what you will need to change when playing on different pitch shapes and sizes

Opposition Instructions: use OIs to counter different formation types and limit the influence of your opponent’s key players

Individual Player Theories: how to get the best performance out of each standard player position

Specialist Player Theories: how to get the best performance out of the following player types:

• Sweeper Keeper

• Sweeper

• Libero

• Deep-Lying Playmaker

• Box-to-Box Midfielder

• Advanced Playmaker

• Target Man

• Poacher

• Complete Forward

Coming soon to a forum near you

Furthermore, TT&F '09 will be supported with a podcast, courtesy of Get Sacked.

[millwallrules]

Jesus, that sounds bloody brilliant...looking forward to it WWfan

[John Swarbrick]

Looks great wwfan. Especially like the sound of different manager styles.

[Mitja]

just in case you didn't see this post shevelevee's thread.

For long I wanted to know how AI sets up his tactics. and play like it. I think we should now how to play the AI way. not the whole picture, just some basics like: does it set the team on individual or team mentality, passing, closing down and creative freedom? How does AI handle forward runs? basiclly what I want to know is which sliders does it set team/individual instructions.

this way some FM players could be able to play as realisticlly as possible without tring to exploit the ME.

wwfan I really belive you should present us with some of these in your TT&F09. I know we shouldn't know everything about how AI's playing and that every manager has and should have his own tactical style. but we need to know the basics: what does every slider mean and how they work in conjunction with each other, and how does AI do it's tactics.

[wwfan]

Abramovic is the AI expert, not me. He has done the most researching of how different AI managers actually play.

As for explaining slider and mentality systems working in conjunction, wait and see. Personally, I think we have managed to hit our target, which was to explain holistic tactical design in simple language, thus removing much confusion about slider settings. We've avoided numbers as much as possible and focused on general rather then exact instructions. I think it is far and away the best thing we've done so far. However, you'll have to wait until November 14th see whether you agree

[Mitja]

i'm looking forward to it then.

if it's already done, why don't you present it before November 14th? that way we could theoretically prepare ourselves for FM09.

[wwfan]

i'm looking forward to it then.

if it's already done, why don't you present it before November 14th? that way we could theoretically prepare ourselves for FM09.

It's not finished

[Mitja]

oh...

just give us smth to read

what is the biggest difference in arrowless ME from tactical point of wiew? are there any changes how sliders work? i'm especially interested in mentality and creative freedom. does the free role make players roam around more, finally?

with so much praise i've heard about it and testing, i'm really expecting ME to work sound from 9.0.0 now.

[wwfan]

oh...

just give us smth to read

what is the biggest difference in arrowless ME from tactical point of wiew? are there any changes how sliders work? i'm especially interested in mentality and creative freedom. does the free role make players roam around more, finally?

with so much praise i've heard about it and testing, i'm really expecting ME to work sound from 9.0.0 now.

Legally, I can't tell you anything so please don't ask. I don't think you'll be disappointed though.

[Mitja]

ok. you were telling much more in shevelevee's thread and now you can't tell anything about mentality, for example?

[wwfan]

I was talking about FML stuff. I'm not legally bound with respects to what happened in FML Beta testing.

[SFraser]

Hi there, great thread. I would like to add a couple of points to it from my recent experience trying out many of these ideas ingame.

I have been playing around with the 4-4-2 control formation from Jaswarbricks excellent "reworking the RoO thread" for my Man United team, developing a 4-4-1-1 formation from the control tactic presented, and have seen some interesting features.

The most interesting point comes from the mentalities and positioning of the MCa, AMC and FC. The plan was to create a triangle formation of the three central players that was capable of simulataneously holding up the ball for runners during a stretched attack transition phase, and also to overload the box with runners while avoiding having the players tights against the backline and manmarked.

The solution was to drop the mentality of the FC deep into defensive while having extremely high attacking mentalities for the MCa and AMC. The mentality of the FC is radically different from the mentalities of the rest of my team and when this defensive mentality is combined to mixed or often forward runs, for the first time I am able to field a deep dropping unpredictable striker.

However the next point is quite important, and it is that the positioning of the FC and AMC on the right or left of the triangular attack depends upon the favoured foot of the FC unless the FC is reasonably two footed in which case the positioning depends upon the favoured foot of AMC.

It is important to note the favoured foot and respective strengths of the two feet of the FC and AMC in order to plan for where they will play in a close triangular central attack. The attacking MC in a four man midfield will then have to be positioned on the same side as the striker favours to avoid the MCa and AMC from occupying the same space.

The key for me in experimenting with this formation is that a highly attack minded AMC and a highly defensive FC play in almost the same level of the pitch, with the FC playing slightly ahead. In other words the positional difference during attack between an all out defense FC and an all out attack AMC appears as 1 to 5 slider settings. However in terms of behaviour there is a vast difference, the FC will naturally pass backwards and play conservatively while the AMC will play gung ho football. These differences can be manipulated with the individual instructions.

My primary point is this. I no longer agree that closely matched player mentalities is universally ideal, but that extremes can be favourable and sometimes necessary. Mentality is a means of custom defining of each position and role on the pitch. This may seem like stating the obvious, but a lot of experience of players and their behaviour is necessary before one can confidently start playing around with extremes of mentality in important positions.

[wwfan]

Great post. I'd look to experiment with mentality splits and passing settings to see if you can get them interacting perfectly. One of the things we've been experimenting with is playing an FCd as a lone striker being supported by an AMC or MCa with FCa settings, so, as you are trying roughly the same thing, any further information as to how get that best working would be gratefully recieved.

[Mitja]

in all my tactics i used extreme individual mentality for either MCd, MCa or FCd. FCa never had mentality higher than team. this is smth i saw from abramovic's thread, how AI played.

for example, in FM08 i played the whole team on the same team mentality, including gk's and centre backs. except for MCa who had higher mentality and FCd who had mentality lower for 5-10 notches then team mentality, in one of my tactics tactics. my idea was to drop deep FCd (FR mixed or rarely) and make MCa more advantureus in attack (FR often).

key positions for using extreme individual mentality in 442 are MCs and FCd.

[SFraser]

Great post. I'd look to experiment with mentality splits and passing settings to see if you can get them interacting perfectly. One of the things we've been experimenting with is playing an FCd as a lone striker being supported by an AMC or MCa with FCa settings, so, as you are trying roughly the same thing, any further information as to how get that best working would be gratefully recieved.

What I have found is that an FC with mentality of around 5 and AMC with a mentality of around 20 tend to play as a striking pair with the AMC playing the withdrawn striker role. This includes FWR often for the AMC and FWR mixed for the FC.

However giving the AMC high creative freedom and a free role will see him link with the midfield on a regular basis. A gung ho AMC with a defensive FC seems to link perfectly with the AMC both running forward as a striker and dropping deep as an attacking midfielder.

The problem I have is that while the FC and AMC are close enough together to see staggered and creative build up play on the edge of the box, the FC is still marginalised from play in terms of touches and involvement. He is not out in the wilderness of an isolated and man marked static striker, and he does track back and play football in centre midfield during build up, but when it gets near the box he goes missing, though his runs create gaps for the midfield and wingers to exploit.

If you have the right players then getting them to swap roles can be effective in getting them both high ratings, although I think it is probably my FC settings that need more work. A mentality of 5 is good for positioning and shape, but not so good for scoring goals.

[bothered]

The problem I have is that while the FC and AMC are close enough together to see staggered and creative build up play on the edge of the box, the FC is still marginalised from play in terms of touches and involvement. He is not out in the wilderness of an isolated and man marked static striker, and he does track back and play football in centre midfield during build up, but when it gets near the box he goes missing, though his runs create gaps for the midfield and wingers to exploit.

That sounds like you've found a sort of Heskey setting.

One thing i'm interested in is with all this continued research into how mentality works etc does that mean we can expect not a lot to change with the match engine?

[wwfan]

As every recent edition of FM has squeezed mentality further than the previous (i.e. forced teams to play with more closely linked player mentalities) I think those settings might be a bit extreme for FM09. However, I could be wrong. I like the idea immensely, but I think it would work better with the right combination of FWRs plus being fully integrated with the mentality settings of the whole team. For example, how would you get the FCd to drop deep to pick up the ball and have the AMC and wingers running ahead of him so he could spin and play a through ball?

[SFraser]

As every recent edition of FM has squeezed mentality further than the previous (i.e. forced teams to play with more closely linked player mentalities) I think those settings might be a bit extreme for FM09. However, I could be wrong. I like the idea immensely, but I think it would work better with the right combination of FWRs plus being fully integrated with the mentality settings of the whole team. For example, how would you get the FCd to drop deep to pick up the ball and have the AMC and wingers running ahead of him so he could spin and play a through ball?

I agree with you here. The extreme mentality setting is something I stumbled upon in the last few days and have not had the time to completely fine tune it. I would suggest that what is required for the FC to play the role of a spearhead playmaker would be the PPMs "plays with back to goal" "drops deep to pick up the ball".

I tend to find however that a midline or slightly attacking/defensive FC mentality leads him to play the role of a striker/poacher in a lone forward formation with plenty of possession high up the pitch. It is the positioning of the AMC and FC in a 4-4-1-1 that makes me think that a high attacking AMC and a high defensive FC do indeed play with a close mentality as far as positioning goes.

As for your question, what about something along the lines of a mentality of 3 to 7, FWR Rare or Mixed, medium-high CF, TTB Often, RWB Often, Passing set to direct, and maybe hold up Ball?