4-2-3-1 in version 20.2

[Tiger666]

Has anyone managed to get a 4-2-3-1 working well in the current match engine? It has been my go-to formation for years but I just can't get it working at the moment as Tottenham. I can barely get to January of the first season before I get sacked. I've played with maybe a dozen variations of it but just cannot make it work. Lack of goals, conceding far too many. I'm now using a 4-3-1-2 and it's working much better. Has anyone got the 4-2-3-1 working well?

Edited December 17, 2019 by Tiger666

[Johnny Ace]

I did before the first patch, was undefeated in the league conceding 4 goals, then it went to crap

I've not really used it since 

Post up your set-up 

Have you given @Experienced Defender's thread a read from FM19?

[thehig2]

Yeah look at my thread trying to get the enganche role to work, so far Id failed in making the role work but my tactic was getting results.

Change the Enganche to an Advanced Playmaker on attack and try that tactic.

[Tiger666]

3 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

I did before the first patch, was undefeated in the league conceding 4 goals, then it went to crap

I've not really used it since 

Post up your set-up 

Have you given @Experienced Defender's thread a read from FM19?

Yes that's one of the variations I tried and is similar to what I was using in 19, it worked fine back then. At work at the moment, will post something later.

Edited December 17, 2019 by Tiger666

[Tiger666]

6 minutes ago, thehig2 said:

Yeah look at my thread trying to get the enganche role to work, so far Id failed in making the role work but my tactic was getting results.

Change the Enganche to an Advanced Playmaker on attack and try that tactic.

Will take a look, thanks. One of the issues I'm having is the number 10, Eriksen/Dele. He just isn't getting in to the game and having much of an impact.

[Johnny Ace]

Just now, Tiger666 said:

Yes that's one of the variations I tried. At work at the moment, will post something later.

The one I posted up or from the 4-2-3-1 thread?

It's the number 10 role in general I think the game struggles with to be honest but I guess it is kinda out off fashion with the 4-1-2-3 (Man City, Liverpool, Barca) being the "in" formation   

[Tiger666]

4 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

The one I posted up or from the 4-2-3-1 thread?

It's the number 10 role in general I think the game struggles with to be honest but I guess it is kinda out off fashion with the 4-1-2-3 (Man City, Liverpool, Barca) being the "in" formation   

Hang on I might be getting confused. I think this is thread I was thinking of, by Cleon not Experienced Defender:

 

[Johnny Ace]

1 minute ago, Tiger666 said:

Will take a look, thanks. One of the issues I'm having is the number 10, Eriksen/Dele. He just isn't getting in to the game and having much of an impact.

From my own, in game observations, any role there on S sits too deep, personally, I want him in the hole. Quite often he won't be much further forward than the CM's & he'll be way behind the AMR/L. Defensively, it's very useful as he'll track back & pick up opposing CM's but when you win the win back he's too deep to influence the attack like a AMR/L will

Run a few games, watch it in detail & see how you think he's influencing play then report any behavior that seems off. I did it last year & didn't get very far   

[Johnny Ace]

8 minutes ago, Tiger666 said:

Hang on I might be getting confused. I think this is thread I was thinking of, by Cleon not Experienced Defender:

That's the one. Cleon's threads are stella but they're done in older verions/ ME's 

The 4-2-3-1 requires rock solid CMs, they're the key. You need hard workers, solid mentals & the PPMs can't be too ambitious, it took me a while last year to ingrain that & I had to sort out my entire batch of CM's   

Edited December 17, 2019 by Johnny Ace

[thehig2]

23 minutes ago, Tiger666 said:

Will take a look, thanks. One of the issues I'm having is the number 10, Eriksen/Dele. He just isn't getting in to the game and having much of an impact.

Big problem I had with that tactic as well, I win a good amount of games with it but my number 10 wasnt involved much.

My team were by passing the number 10 and going ovef the top of him either the Raumdeuter or the striker.

 

[Tiger666]

Thanks for the comments guys, I'll take a look at all this after work later.

[Experienced Defender]

46 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

Have you given @Experienced Defender's thread a read from FM19?

Actually, my thread on 4231 was created for FM18, but most principles could have been applied to FM19 (and probably also FM20 now). And in FM19 it was easier to create a good 4231 tactic than in FM18. But you need to make sure you really have the right players for such a tricky system (which I really don't understand why people like to use so much in FM).

[Johnny Ace]

3 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

 (which I really don't understand why people like to use so much in FM).

I guess because it's one of the most offensive formations & the abundance of World class AMCs & AML/Rs in FM 

[herne79]

I have a couple of 4231s working - one loosely based on something I did in FM17 with a False 9 / False 10 combo up top, the other based on similar principles to this.

[Tiger666]

8 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

I guess because it's one of the most offensive formations & the abundance of World class AMCs & AML/Rs in FM 

There is that, also because I like to try and somewhat emulate Tottenham irl.

[Johnny Ace]

10 minutes ago, herne79 said:

I have a couple of 4231s working - one loosely based on something I did in FM17 with a False 9 / False 10 combo up top, the other based on similar principles to this.

I got to something similar last year though without a F9 (I didn't have anyone suitable)

Quote

 

I had a mess about last night for a few hours, in my test save & main save & the most success I got from the SS(A) was the CF(S) setup, with a few changes 

Basically, in my mad scientist type way I observed the following:

• he needs lots of support & any other Attack duty in the top-4 would take his shine away (they still score)
• IF's(S) supply him more often than a W(S) can (I use WBIB into box so figure they're too wide to find him)
• Playmakers pick up passes the SS(A) could use to drive forward
• central runners ruin his jive including the IWB(A)

I ended up with:

 

                                          PF(S)

            IF(S)                      SS(A)                       IF(S)

                            CM(S)               CM(D)

          FB(S)         CD(D)             BPD(D)         FB(A)

                                        SK(S)

Team Instructions

• Attacking
• Play out of defense
• Work ball into box
• Counter-Press
• More urgent
• Long throws

Player Instructions

• CM(S): Take more Risks
• SS(A): Shoot more

It looks an odd setup to me, it looks toothless but the IF's & PF will score when given the chance, the SS(A) is involved but his primary job seems to be linking up the midfield & attack with scoring secondary hence I added Shoot more but the main reason is the guy's I want to use for the role have better Long Shot ratings than Finishing so I want them pinging shots from the edge of the box

I'll have another tinker tonight, trying a DLF(S) & (A) then push on with my season

 

 

[Lam3r]

11 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

I guess because it's one of the most offensive formations & the abundance of World class AMCs & AML/Rs in FM 

This. I think people get fixated on AMC's not being natural at CM and similar with wide players being natural at AML/R but not ML/R. 4231 as it is in the game gives you the broadest selection of natural players to pick from.

In reality 4231 is probably the most prevalent formation going, but it doesn't line up anything like it does on FM. I watched Huddersfield play archetypal 4231 gegenpress under Wagner for 3 years, yet it was far more 2DM's and the 3 in the midfield strata, but on FM Mooy wasn't trained at DM at all, none of our number 10s were natural at CM and Kachunga on the right wasn't 'capable' of playing MR, only AMR. 

I think its a fault of the game User interface, it makes people chase green circles.

[Johnny Ace]

10 minutes ago, Tiger666 said:

There is that, also because I like to try and somewhat emulate Tottenham irl.

I'll be interested to see what combo you come up with for Ali & Kane, I'm not familiar with their FM profiles nor do I watch that many Spurs games but both seem very offensive minded 

[Tiger666]

2 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

I'll be interested to see what combo you come up with for Ali & Kane, I'm not familiar with their FM profiles nor do I watch that many Spurs games but both seem very offensive minded 

Dele is a decent playmaker but his decision making isn't the best, he's also a lot slower this year than in previous versions. Not sure whether I want him in the 10 as maybe a Shadow Striker with Kane as a Deep Lying Forward on Support or False Nine or whether he'll be better off in the AML slot as an Inside Forward on Attack. Kane is pretty much the complete forward, just lacks a bit of pace and flair. He may be a bit wasted as a F9, I dunno, all things I need to look at and test properly once I get the basic tactic down.

 

[abhid30007]

I have seen a sharp decrease in laser guided through balls if you dont use the offside trap while defending. I have had a lot of sucess with defend deep n hit at counter

 

                                         AF(A)

            IF(S)                      AP(S)                       T(A)

                            CM(D)               B2B(S)

          FB(A)         CD(D)             BPD(D)         FB(S)

                                        GD(D)

 

Use TI plays out of defence. counter, counter press, normal def line, normal loe, more press, if you are playing lower mentality you might need to add higher tempo, pass into space

[Tiger666]

2 hours ago, abhid30007 said:

I have seen a sharp decrease in laser guided through balls if you dont use the offside trap while defending. I have had a lot of sucess with defend deep n hit at counter

 

                                         AF(A)

            IF(S)                      AP(S)                       T(A)

                            CM(D)               B2B(S)

          FB(A)         CD(D)             BPD(D)         FB(S)

                                        GD(D)

 

Use TI plays out of defence. counter, counter press, normal def line, normal loe, more press, if you are playing lower mentality you might need to add higher tempo, pass into space

I'm not sure the 4-2-3-1 is the best formation to use if you intent to sit deep, I may be wrong. I've always thought it was best with a high line and pressing as you have a lot of players in advanced positions to harass the opposition and win the ball back high up the pitch. It's one of the reasons I like using it as I favour more aggressive styles. This is why I've been thinking the 4-2-3-1 has been failing me as I'm seeing so many long balls over the top of my defence when I'm pressed up trying to win the ball back. Something I didn't have much of an issue about in previous versions but with these long balls in 20.2 it seems a bit suicidal.

 

[battles_atlas]

Just posted this in the bug forum about the same issue. 4231 has been my default in past versions, and was ok with FM20, but last patch in particular seems to have hurt it.

 

[Tiger666]

Just now, battles_atlas said:

Just posted this in the bug forum about the same issue. 4231 has been my default in past versions, and was ok with FM20, but last patch in particular seems to have hurt it.

 

Yes this is one of issues I've been having. I like the idea of a number 10 playmaker, another  reason I like the 4-2-3-1. I just can't get Eriksen involved like I could in previous versions. In versions gone by he would be the heartbeat of the team, highest ratings, most assists etc. I've not been able to reproduce it in the current match engine. Maybe all these long passes being smashed about is hurting him as the game passes by overhead a lot.

[battles_atlas]

Yeah same. I'm finding that playing a short passing 4231 most games I'm having tons of shots on target (note work ball into box is on, so not like these are long range pot shots) but I'm not scoring, whilst opponents do score with one or two chances from long balls over top. Deeply frustrating

[Tiger666]

23 hours ago, Johnny Ace said:

That's the one. Cleon's threads are stella but they're done in older verions/ ME's 

The 4-2-3-1 requires rock solid CMs, they're the key. You need hard workers, solid mentals & the PPMs can't be too ambitious, it took me a while last year to ingrain that & I had to sort out my entire batch of CM's   

Ok had a read through that thread last night, some good information in there but not had the chance to test anything yet. Will get to play some over christmas. Thanks for the link.

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, Tiger666 said:

Ok had a read through that thread last night, some good information in there but not had the chance to test anything yet

Just be careful, because I wrote it for FM18. As of FM19, the ME has been improved, so some of the principles from my thread no longer apply to the same degree/in the same way as before. 

[Johnny Ace]

12 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Just be careful, because I wrote it for FM18. As of FM19, the ME has been improved, so some of the principles from my thread no longer apply to the same degree/in the same way as before. 

Like what though pal? I found it & all of your tactical advice & reasoning to be gold to be honest 

[Tiger666]

24 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Just be careful, because I wrote it for FM18. As of FM19, the ME has been improved, so some of the principles from my thread no longer apply to the same degree/in the same way as before. 

Yeah fair enough but it's still full of basic general principals that can be applied to all versions imo. Very good thread.

Edited December 18, 2019 by Tiger666

[herne79]

22 hours ago, Tiger666 said:

I'm not sure the 4-2-3-1 is the best formation to use if you intent to sit deep, I may be wrong.

There are 4231s and then there are 4231s.  A 4231 using 2 x DMs instead of CMs and ML/R/C instead of AML/R/C positions can be a great system for sitting deep.  Or even just 2 x DMs.  You could also make a good case for saying a lot of real life 4231 systems use players which FM would categorise their positioning as DMs rather than CMs.  Someone's already linked Cleon's thread which explores that more.

 

22 hours ago, battles_atlas said:

Just posted this in the bug forum about the same issue. 4231 has been my default in past versions, and was ok with FM20, but last patch in particular seems to have hurt it.

 

And you had some replies.  But without knowing your system it's impossible to give you any specific suggestions.  As an example of a playmaker at AMC rather than a "goal getter", my Enganche finished his latest match heavily involved with play, completing 47 passes (by comparison my highest passer completed 54) with 5 key passes recorded (my striker got the PoM award).

Alternatively I have a different 4231 system using a F9/F10 combination which is every bit as nice.  I'll post them below for examples, just don't go copying them as that doesn't always work out well, plus these are just starting points and I tend to make adjustments through a match (I may also start with a different Mentality and/or TIs).

[cocoadavid]

I currently have a very well working 4-2-3-1 with DMs. Note that I created this tactic to suit my squad (Auxerre) and the style of play I wanted to achieve, it may not produce the same kind of results with other teams. 
In my first season I won Ligue 2 (was predicted 6th), and now straight after promotion, after 11 games in Ligue 1, we are currently 2nd (predicted 20th).
Here is the base tactic, but sometimes I make small adjustment during matches. In Ligue 2 I usually started with Positive mentality, now in Ligue 1 I always start with Balanced mentality.

The Base Tactic:
Player Instructions are essential to this tactic.



PIs:
- actually it is a TI, but it is not visible on the picture: My GK is instructed to distribute to our left FB
- all of the defenders and the VOL are instructed to pass it shorter.
- right FB: sit narrower, pass it shorter
- right CB: pass it shorter
- left CB: sit wider, pass it shorter
- left FB: stay wider, pass it shorter
- DM: hold position
- VOL: move into channels, close down more, tackle harder, get further forward, pass it shorter (this one also depends on the passing quality of the player playing this role)
- WM: stay wider
- IW: more risky passes, sit narrower, roam from position

Idea behind the tactic and how it works:
We build up play from the back with short simple passes, usually on the left side of the pitch, and when the ball reaches the IW or the AP, they either switch the ball to the right wing for our WM, or play a through ball for our Advance Forward, or play it to our overlapping left back. Our DM alse make a lot of key passes from deeper positions, in this role I look for a player who is suited to be a DLP. Our Volante is the athlete in the team, arrives late in the opponent area, and when defending, he acts like a BWM, while the DM holds his defensive position. At the back, our right FB - instructed to sit narrower -, the right CB, and the left CD - instructed to stay wider - form a solid back three when we are in possession.

When the opposition prevents short GK distribution, they don't allow my GK to distribute to the left FB, but this creates a trap for my opposition: my left FB still comes near the GK to receive the ball, and the opposition's right winger follows him closely. But this creates a gap behind their right winger, and my GK is usually clever enough to pass the pall into that area where my IW receives the ball, and instantly he has options to penetrate the space behind the opposition's defence with a well executed pass. I do NOT use the Play Out of Defence TI to achieve this kind of movement. Even without the POOD TI my defenders and GK pass it short most of the time.

I often tick the Regroup TI, especially when playing against a strong team, or we are leading. Sometimes I play my AP on attack duty - this way our defence is slightly more vulnerable in the centre, the opposition has more space in front of my DMs, but our AP is in a slightly better position for a quick counter. Occasionly I also play my Volante on Attack duty.
 

[battles_atlas]

11 minutes ago, herne79 said:

And you had some replies.  But without knowing your system it's impossible to give you any specific suggestions.  As an example of a playmaker at AMC rather than a "goal getter", my Enganche finished his latest match heavily involved with play, completing 47 passes (by comparison my highest passer completed 54) with 5 key passes recorded (my striker got the PoM award).

Alternatively I have a different 4231 system using a F9/F10 combination which is every bit as nice.  I'll post them below for examples, just don't go copying them as that doesn't always work out well, plus these are just starting points and I tend to make adjustments through a match (I may also start with a different Mentality and/or TIs).

 

 

Yes I had some replies which mainly denied it was a bug and to come here, sorry I don't know what your point is?

As for your Enganche, I'd be far more interested in his assists, goals and rating for the season, rather than a one off game. I remember playing FM16 (last edition I had) and Firmino getting an 8 average rating and racking up assists in the AM role - I'm not saying such a thing is impossible in this year's ME, but I've not seen any evidence yet. I have seen plenty of reasons to doubt it though (namely that defenders are far worse at stopping balls than have flown 60yards than those that have travelled 10).

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, Johnny Ace said:

Like what though pal?

Like, for example, that you can now play both the AMC and the striker on attack duty (which is different from what I suggested back then). 

[herne79]

39 minutes ago, battles_atlas said:

Yes I had some replies which mainly denied it was a bug and to come here, sorry I don't know what your point is?

The point being you were advised to head to the Tactics forum, detail your system and ask for help, which you haven't done.

Might be best to start your own thread though .

39 minutes ago, battles_atlas said:

As for your Enganche, I'd be far more interested in his assists, goals and rating for the season, rather than a one off game. I remember playing FM16 (last edition I had) and Firmino getting an 8 average rating and racking up assists in the AM role - I'm not saying such a thing is impossible in this year's ME, but I've not seen any evidence yet. I have seen plenty of reasons to doubt it though (namely that defenders are far worse at stopping balls than have flown 60yards than those that have travelled 10).

44 appearances, 11 goals, 14 assists, 4 PoM, avg rating 7.24.  None were penalties and he doesn't take the freekicks.  I'd perhaps like a few less goals from him, but I'm not complaining.  Especially as my striker finished the season with 27 goals and 10 assists in 44 matches.

So Doubting Thomas (), how about that system of yours then?

(btw I'm not trying to say for a moment that this can always happen.  As always, different systems will more or less favour certain principles and play styles, and trying to do something may take you too far away from the a style you are trying to achieve).

[Johnny Ace]

19 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Like, for example, that you can now play both the AMC and the striker on attack duty (which is different from what I suggested back then). 

The AI do that a lot, they either have AML, AMC & STR on Attack, or LB, AMR, STR on Attack, they did last year too 

[Experienced Defender]

5 hours ago, Johnny Ace said:

The AI do that a lot, they either have AML, AMC & STR on Attack, or LB, AMR, STR on Attack, they did last year too

Well, last year was FM19, not FM18. My "guide" was about FM18. 

5 hours ago, Johnny Ace said:

LB, AMR, STR on Attack

I have never advised against having these positions on attack duty. Moreover, I personally like to have a fullback and the opposite wide forward both on attack duties (as long as both are properly covered defensively).

[Tiger666]

3 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Well, last year was FM19, not FM18. My "guide" was about FM18. 

I have never advised against having these positions on attack duty. Moreover, I personally like to have a fullback and the opposite wide forward both on attack duties (as long as both are properly covered defensively).

Same here. I started playing in FM12 and have always done the flip-flop with opposing support/attack on wing backs and the AML/AMR positions. In fact, now I think about it, just about every 4-2-3-1 variation I've tried has been pretty much:

 

Attack
Attack Support Support
Support Defend
Support Defend Defend Attack
Defend
 

[Experienced Defender]

5 hours ago, Johnny Ace said:

The AI do that a lot

Btw, don't think that anything AI is doing is necessarily a good idea  

[Johnny Ace]

3 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Well, last year was FM19, not FM18. My "guide" was about FM18. 

I have never advised against having these positions on attack duty. Moreover, I personally like to have a fullback and the opposite wide forward both on attack duties (as long as both are properly covered defensively).

They probably did in FM18  too, I don't think much as changed for a good few years in how the AI "balance" out their duties 

I always assumed your guide was for the current FM, so November 2018 would be for 2019, especially as there was no mention of Fluidity from anyone in the thread. The principles in it are the pretty much the same, I've ran them in FM15,16,17 (& initially 20) recently with great success   

I might track down a skin so I can see what how the AI line up in those 

[Johnny Ace]

1 minute ago, Experienced Defender said:

Btw, don't think that anything AI is doing is necessarily a good idea  

They make some very, very strange lineups (& by that, I mean compared to what I've learnt in general over the years). If chasing a game they'll have all 4 up top & the fullbacks on attack 

[Johnny Ace]

7 minutes ago, Tiger666 said:

Same here. I started playing in FM12 and have always done the flip-flop with opposing support/attack on wing backs and the AML/AMR positions. In fact, now I think about it, just about every 4-2-3-1 variation I've tried has been pretty much:

 

Attack
Attack Support Support
Support Defend
Support Defend Defend Attack
Defend
 

That's how I generally approach it but it depends on the roles in there & how I balance it up 

When the AI have 3 of the top 4 on Attack, they generally line up like:

                                               Attack
                                Attack Attack Support
                                    Support Defend
                       Support Defend Defend Defend 

So it's not too shabby at all 

Edited December 19, 2019 by Johnny Ace

[jc577]

On 18/12/2019 at 14:48, herne79 said:

There are 4231s and then there are 4231s.  A 4231 using 2 x DMs instead of CMs and ML/R/C instead of AML/R/C positions can be a great system for sitting deep.  Or even just 2 x DMs.  You could also make a good case for saying a lot of real life 4231 systems use players which FM would categorise their positioning as DMs rather than CMs.  Someone's already linked Cleon's thread which explores that more.

 

And you had some replies.  But without knowing your system it's impossible to give you any specific suggestions.  As an example of a playmaker at AMC rather than a "goal getter", my Enganche finished his latest match heavily involved with play, completing 47 passes (by comparison my highest passer completed 54) with 5 key passes recorded (my striker got the PoM award).

Alternatively I have a different 4231 system using a F9/F10 combination which is every bit as nice.  I'll post them below for examples, just don't go copying them as that doesn't always work out well, plus these are just starting points and I tend to make adjustments through a match (I may also start with a different Mentality and/or TIs).

Do you struggle defensively using a higher line of engagement without pushing up the defensive line? I've been testing it out in the last few games I've noticed there's huge spaces in midfield if the ball isn't won high up the pitch. 

[BadAss88]

On 17/12/2019 at 14:00, Lam3r said:

This. I think people get fixated on AMC's not being natural at CM and similar with wide players being natural at AML/R but not ML/R. 4231 as it is in the game gives you the broadest selection of natural players to pick from.

In reality 4231 is probably the most prevalent formation going, but it doesn't line up anything like it does on FM. I watched Huddersfield play archetypal 4231 gegenpress under Wagner for 3 years, yet it was far more 2DM's and the 3 in the midfield strata, but on FM Mooy wasn't trained at DM at all, none of our number 10s were natural at CM and Kachunga on the right wasn't 'capable' of playing MR, only AMR. 

I think its a fault of the game User interface, it makes people chase green circles.

This. It's utter ******** that players are capable of playing certain roles at AMR/L but aren't capable of playing the same roles in MR/L. Same with AMC and MC..

I find this very frustrating!