Playing defensively as a big side

[ceefax the cat]

I've been playing as Galatasaray recently and cottoned onto quite an effective counterattacking system. Took them over when they were underachieving but of course when I started winning, teams started sitting back and the counter became less effective. I'm still doing very well but I think it could be tuned to become unbeatable. Base shape is a 4-4-2 with 2 DM's, usually with one fullback overlapping a wide playmaker / inverted winger and an attacking winger on the other side.

I know that I could win the league by playing a high line and gegenpressing like every other successful tactic at the moment but I'm a bit sick of that predictable, confined tactical world and I know that IRL, if you keep clean sheets and counter effectively you're going to end up winning. Mourinho's Chelsea, Inter and Real spring to mind - very hard to score against and if you give them a sniff they go ahead and that's it. See also Ancelotti and Pochettino who always like their opponents to open up and like to counterattack even if it's from quite advanced areas. Not gegenpressing as such but encouraging turnovers and counterattacking opportunities in the early stages of the opponents' buildup. 

I like the idea of winning trophies with a big side with a defensive mentality. I guess the challenge is to encourage the opposition to play out and be good at tweaking your side to exploit the gaps they leave - any attacking fullbacks, any aerial mismatches, any pockets of space - so that even when the opposition leave players back, there's an opportunity to catch them out a couple of times per game. I think that with a defensive mindset comes a reactive approach and there should basically be a bespoke tactic for every opponent.

Closing down wise I guess some kind of false press is required. You want to apply pressure to stop them passing it around at the back and coax the ball into midfield but ultimately focus on maintaining a low-ish block. I'd expect the attacking players to be arranged so as to leave attack-duty players in areas vacated by attacking fullbacks, so there would basically always be an AML/R-a involved somewhere, and a striker ready to run in behind, meaning you either play a front two or a no.9 with an AM close behind.

The goal is to take precisely zero risks and beat opponents with quick, incisive attacks by technically superior players with vision, pace and good movement. Anyone tried it?

[summatsupeer]

There's a whole range of tactical options between counter and possession.  Can't be really specific without a tactic and details on its issues so I'll discuss things generically.

I would say you want to be pragmatic rather than defensive.  Your willing to adjust and change rather than stick to a system.  This requires flexibility in players more than anything and a few different systems available and trained.

Yes if your too passive defensively against lesser opponents they will just waste time and pass it around slowly and safely all game but that doesn't mean you have to full pitch press.  All formations have space somewhere, 433 DM Wide gives it high and central plus between flank players, due to that DM it makes it a bit easy for opponents to use there DM to pass it around deep.  If it was a flat 3 or 4411 but not full pitch pressing your increasing risk giving space higher but the reward is more space to attack into.

With attack you have to decide how you want to attack, if you want penetration rather than possession (one takes from the other) then you have to take risks with the ball, especially before you get to the final third. Whilst you dont want to just launch long balls into outnumbered situations, you can take many of the opponent players out of the game by passing/running past them, you just have to find the balance between being too speculative and too safe.

If want fast attacks then overlaps are typically too slow, by the time a DL/DR gets forward then opponents should be back and organized, not a bad plan B if the initial fast attack doesnt work though, just like a structured/counter style. Really it's the most advanced players who should be allowed to get forward and are covered for rather than sitting and covering for fullbacks.

I typically dont use playmakers either.  Whilst a DLP launching defense splitting passes sounds good in theory, it can also mean more lateral/backwards passes to give him the ball and a slower attack.  What about an higher playmaker then? Will they're always trying to collect the ball which typically means coming deeper and narrower so will remove the high early tuns or support they can give a runner if the playmaker isn't given the ball.  A TQ might have the urgency with the ball but what's his positioning without it?

[Svenc]

On 18/08/2019 at 03:22, ceefax the cat said:

The goal is to take precisely zero risks and beat opponents with quick, incisive attacks by technically superior players with vision, pace and good movement. Anyone tried it?

Sort of. Mind you, that was playing "defensively" too the extreme.  

 

I think in-game you may have better success though if you start a game with actively pushing for the lead, and then would Play conservative Football as soon as you have it. I did it on a Prior release, and barely conceded a Goal in the second half for months (top of the table with an average of but 12-13 shots too). The AI on FM is a) on average far too cautious. And b) as a "big Team", you will face ridiculously defensive Teams every single week. Sometimes, rather regularly, the AI even figures out it simply wants to avoid getting "trashed"; and as such even parks the bus when it's 0-1 behind. In real Football, Things are neither as extreme nor as linear, and a lot more varied than that. One of the Major reasons also why final simple match stats (shots) in actual Football aren't as "one-sided", as Teams don't shut up completely just because they are facing a superior side every week. 

In more Detail: Typically outside of the CBs those opponents have both full backs, at least one central midfielder on defensive / hold Position Duty. Meaning that, there is nobody pushing Forward, with the full backs typically staying back, and the Center of the pitch locked too. They Play narrow and compact. And as soon as they drop the ball, they drop Deep. There really is no much space to counter in there. A lead, at least, may trigger a Change. On the rare Occasion.

Edited August 19, 2019 by Svenc

[viperswhip]

If your goal is to keep clean sheets only. My goal is to keep playing the same way that got me into the lead in the first place the whole game through. I don't let my foot off the gas because it's 3-0. Every time I change from positive or attacking down to balanced or defensive they score on me, ever single damned time, memory selection bias is in total effect for this post.

I just stopped doing it. I do concede the odd goal in the 92nd minute, but I do that no matter what stance I play, at least I am more likely to be scoring at that time if I stayed on the attack. I know that's counter to real life. But you can't order your players to play keep away in this game.

[Svenc]

16 hours ago, viperswhip said:

If your goal is to keep clean sheets only. My goal is to keep playing the same way that got me into the lead in the first place the whole game through. I don't let my foot off the gas because it's 3-0. Every time I change from positive or attacking down to balanced or defensive they score on me, ever single damned time, memory selection bias is in total effect for this post.

I just stopped doing it. I do concede the odd goal in the 92nd minute, but I do that no matter what stance I play, at least I am more likely to be scoring at that time if I stayed on the attack. I know that's counter to real life. But you can't order your players to play keep away in this game.

Well, there may be a difference between just inviting all the Opposition in your half and giving the ball easily away for them to attack over and over again -- at some points down the season you'll simply concede, and be it by bad luck or a fluke or whatever

However, there's a balance to be had, and on Prior releases it was this easy to simply Play Keep-ball after a lead, the Opposition barely would a) have the ball anymore, let alone b) take a crack at the Goal. Mind you, too easy. (Good screen to check too if you're a victim of your Memory selection bias, btw. )

[Warrenwwr]

Spain in euro 2012. A team with stars galore. That team fooled everyone with delightful short quick passes, dribbles, diagonal balls etc. IMO they were playing very cautiously /defensively. It certainly wasn't on the attacking side of the spectrum. The formation had no striker, every player could defend to an extent. They didn't make risky passes, simply the right passes for the situation. they let 1 goal in. While defending high, pressing aggressively etc.

Edited August 21, 2019 by Warrenwwr

[viperswhip]

Didn't they try the same thing in 2016? I don't remember them really scoring any goals either.

[kingjericho]

On 18/08/2019 at 02:22, ceefax the cat said:

The goal is to take precisely zero risks and beat opponents with quick, incisive attacks by technically superior players with vision, pace and good movement. Anyone tried it?

That reminds me of Uruguay's approach. Basically they sit back, regardless of who the opponent is, and try to score via quick transitions and hope that either Cavani or Suarez score a goal to then defend that advantage until the end.

[Strikerir]

Myself have tryied to implement counter attacking tactics on big teams and im not good at tactics but i can give u an advise that ive learned wich is try to play somewhat attacking until you score that first goal and then u can go defensive to not concede it will create that pragmatic effect and will garante that you are a defensive side who wins trophy even jose didnt play defensive for 90 min he would start the game to win it then to not bottle it unless its a bigger side where you have to adapt that "big game strategy"

[FMunderachiever]

I dont really understand why, as the better team which you would be in the majority of your games, would you want to negate your own advantages of having the more gifted technical players and play in a way where essentially youre letting the opposition have the ball and hoping they do nothing with it, whilst hoping you can create enough chances to win with less possession than you would have had by controlling the game.

 

Its a bit like, youre finding the game too easy and you want to handicap yourself by winning in spite of unsuitable tactics.

 

 

[Strikerir]

40 minutes ago, FMunderachiever said:

I dont really understand why, as the better team which you would be in the majority of your games, would you want to negate your own advantages of having the more gifted technical players and play in a way where essentially youre letting the opposition have the ball and hoping they do nothing with it, whilst hoping you can create enough chances to win with less possession than you would have had by controlling the game.

 

Its a bit like, youre finding the game too easy and you want to handicap yourself by winning in spite of unsuitable tactics.

 

 

As i said he can play defensive but he as to start on the front foot. There's a lot of sucessfull big teams that play defensive but they start on the front foot and then retreat.

[Falahk]

18 minutes ago, FMunderachiever said:

I dont really understand why, as the better team which you would be in the majority of your games, would you want to negate your own advantages of having the more gifted technical players and play in a way where essentially youre letting the opposition have the ball and hoping they do nothing with it, whilst hoping you can create enough chances to win with less possession than you would have had by controlling the game.

 

Its a bit like, youre finding the game too easy and you want to handicap yourself by winning in spite of unsuitable tactics.

 

 

I honestly feel it's the other way around, if I have a good squad I can be more pragmatic and shred teams on the counter or grind out results with possession football, since my team will make fewer mistakes in defence and stick the ball in the net with every half decent chance that comes my way

[Svenc]

6 hours ago, Falahk said:

I honestly feel it's the other way around, if I have a good squad I can be more pragmatic and shred teams on the counter or grind out results with possession football, since my team will make fewer mistakes in defence and stick the ball in the net with every half decent chance that comes my way

Can you counter much though in the majority of Matches Prior to scoring the 1-0? That's a genuine Question. I haven't done Videos in ages, but to illustrate off an ancient video what you are dealingn against more often than not. 

First sequence, start of the match (scoreline 0-0): Napoli (not that small a Team) barely pushing a single Player Forward, both fbs glued to the backline, barely any Forward runs in General (conservative roles/Duties). That's basically have a Team plus never advancing. They also play narrow and compact in an attempt to not give the ball away and leave space. When Barca win the ball back, they also drop immediately Deep as soon as the ball approaches the halfway line, which leaves no space for balls over the top either, and Barcelona have the entire team to play around. This would continue for at least until the 1-0 is scored, when the AI would make changes. However, it can also stay in its defensive shell and simply try to avoid a "trashing" -- an "issue" in particular in long-term saves in case of success, where your team is seen as the huge to big favorite every other week. (The Kind of Football top Teams face tends to be less varied than it is for real top Teams in General).

The second sequence meanwhile is from the last 10-15 minutes at 4-3, with the AI having switched to its desperate gung-ho tactics of throwing bodies forward in recless abundance (outside of the a central midfielder). This is done in an attempt to still save a draw. It's only when a change is finally applied a counter comes off. 
 

 
That said, yeah, keeping the ball and playing defensive possession football is for sure a defensive tool in itself (and used to be rather too efficient in particular on prior releases for a couple reasons).  

Edited August 22, 2019 by Svenc

[Falahk]

I have not played fm in a while (due to work commitments), so my examples are just as ancient as yours, but lets be fair the ME is pretty much the same, and there are a few more options in the TC. but other then that it is pretty much still the same game, so we will have a look at 3 different tactical set ups I used with Manchester United on fm14, I used each of them for a full year and won the league every year:

this one I used during the first season, and its probably the most attacking of the 3, control the midfield with numbers and choke the opposition this way, pretty basic well rounded tactical system

this one is from the secound season, if you have seen it before, then its becouse its Uncle Sam's box midfield from an even older fm with a couple of minor tweaks to suit my style. lets be fair, this is not what one could call an attacking set up, but with the right type of players its a very effective system on the break and brilliant to watch

a bit of a traditional italian 4-4-2, with the roles set up to create a zona mista like shape in possession to help with transition play, nothing spectacular but it does the job well enough  

[kingjericho]

4 hours ago, Falahk said:

this one is from the secound season, if you have seen it before, then its becouse its Uncle Sam's box midfield from an even older fm with a couple of minor tweaks to suit my style.

wow, haven't hard that name in a long time  loved his old posts about the box formation

[ceefax the cat]

Think I'm getting somewhere with this

Basically I've made a very stout, compact 4-4-2 inspired by Arrigo Sacchi's 1994 Italy side - a narrow medium block playing the offside trap. I start each match focusing on nothing but keeping them out of my half / final third, and then start finding ways to score, if I'm not already getting chances.

Edited September 7, 2019 by ceefax the cat

[lferreira]

3 hours ago, ceefax the cat said:

Think I'm getting somewhere with this

Basically I've made a very stout, compact 4-4-2 inspired by Arrigo Sacchi's 1994 Italy side - a narrow medium block playing the offside trap. I start each match focusing on nothing but keeping them out of my half / final third, and then start finding ways to score, if I'm not already getting chances.

Fluid/Very Fluid 4-4-2 is a sight to behold when it works.

[ceefax the cat]

Wouldn't describe mine as the most fluid, alas... defensive or cautious mentality, loads of defensive roles at the start of each game, 'more disciplined' and pretty direct unless the opposition setup makes it impossible. I haven't paid much attention to different variations in the buildup yet so I suppose that's my next job

[poobington]

Do you have a screenshot of what you're using at the moment?

[scwiffy]

I've found defensive/counter tactics don't work well for top sides in current FM match engine. This is mainly because opposition will often happily pass it around at the back taking their sweet time and not taking any risks. My teams would just sit in a low/medium block just wasting time waiting for opposition to come into my half so I could trigger counter. This is the same reason why high-press works so well in current version/ME, its not the actual winning of the ball high up the pitch, its the fact that it makes the opposition hurry up and attempt to play the ball forward leading to long balls or space opening up

[sporadicsmiles]

17 hours ago, scwiffy said:

I've found defensive/counter tactics don't work well for top sides in current FM match engine. This is mainly because opposition will often happily pass it around at the back taking their sweet time and not taking any risks. My teams would just sit in a low/medium block just wasting time waiting for opposition to come into my half so I could trigger counter. This is the same reason why high-press works so well in current version/ME, its not the actual winning of the ball high up the pitch, its the fact that it makes the opposition hurry up and attempt to play the ball forward leading to long balls or space opening up

The can be absolutely devastating when used against a team who is actually attacking you though. Very few big teams use purely counter attacking or defensive tactics regularly in real life for the same reason. Many do incorporate counter attacking into their general playing style though. You do not have to be a purely defensive side to play on the counter.

[kingjericho]

On 07/09/2019 at 14:56, ceefax the cat said:

Wouldn't describe mine as the most fluid, alas... defensive or cautious mentality, loads of defensive roles at the start of each game, 'more disciplined' and pretty direct unless the opposition setup makes it impossible. I haven't paid much attention to different variations in the buildup yet so I suppose that's my next job

Do you change roles/duties as the match progresses?