This Must Stop!!

[magnoliadave]

It's you, isn't it? Why I oughta!

its not me but i do like a good old spank

[Carl87]

In all seriousness though, it's not jealousy it's just rationality; if you work hard at something and give it away to people for free out of sheer respect, you don't expect to find someone selling your work, it's absurd.

[DamianJMcGrath]

On the flip side, I'm pretty sure posting his personal website domain details without permission on this website is also questionable.

[Goofus]

The way I see it, the users on this forum slog their hearts out to produce these graphics, facepacks, club logos etc.

Obtaining it for free and distributing it FOR FREE is all right. You're just passing on the stuff.

Obtaining it for free and distributing it FOR A PROFIT might not be illegal, however I'm sure there are legal ramifications.

[loaf1011]

On the flip side, I'm pretty sure posting his personal website domain details without permission on this website is also questionable.

How is this "questionable?" All domain information is public information, easily obtainable by ANYONE on WhoIs.net. I do not need permission to simply inform people of what is already available to them and is public information, available for free. I'd love it if you informed me of what is wrong about posting public information.

By the way, George W. Bush is President of the United States. That's just as public of information as domain details are - do I need G.W.'s permission to tell you this?

[Falastur]

I'd love it if you informed me of what is wrong about posting public information.

If you read the blurb at the bottom of the whois.com website after searching a name:

...By submitting a

whois query, you agree that you will use this data only for lawful

purposes and that, under no circumstances will you use this data to: (1)

enable high volume, automated, electronic processes that stress or load

this whois database system providing you this information; or (2) allow,

enable, or otherwise support the transmission of mass unsolicited,

commercial advertising or solicitations via direct mail, electronic

mail, or by telephone. The compilation, repackaging, dissemination or

other use of this data is expressly prohibited without prior written

consent from us.

We reserve the right to modify these terms at any time. By submitting

this query, you agree to abide by these terms.

[GIMN]

It does claim at the top of the site that no profit is made from the sales of the discs. Instead, they cover the cost of stock, and packaging. Perhaps it would have been better if he had charged the amount it costs to buy one CD per product, and then added P&P to cover the sending costs.

You've got to remember that selling something that would be relatively easier to get free for such a nominal price, is not likely to be much of a money spinner. (After all, if you search for graphic updates, or logo packs, on google then the SI forums or sortitoutsi links are going to be very high up the search results - and I expect much higher up than this website).

As it is 4.1gb for the complete update, then he may actually be offering a very good service, as some people might not be able to download something that big. It would not be in his interests to just send out CD's purely at a loss, and unless you can prove that the £1.95 does result in personal profit, then the question of legality is no more prevalent with this website than it is with all the other updates available on the web that breach trademark and image rights.

[GIMN]

It does claim at the top of the site that no profit is made from the sales of the discs. Instead, they cover the cost of stock, and packaging. Perhaps it would have been better if he had charged the amount it costs to buy one CD per product, and then added P&P to cover the sending costs.

You've got to remember that selling something that would be relatively easier to get free for such a nominal price, is not likely to be much of a money spinner. (After all, if you search for graphic updates, or logo packs, on google then the SI forums or sortitoutsi links are going to be very high up the search results - and I expect much higher up than this website).

As it is 4.1gb for the complete update, then he may actually be offering a very good service, as some people might not be able to download something that big. It would not be in his interests to just send out CD's purely at a loss, and unless you can prove that the £1.95 does result in personal profit, then the question of legality is no more prevalent with this website than it is with all the other updates available on the web that breach trademark and image rights.

[eyko]

It does claim at the top of the site that no profit is made from the sales of the discs. Instead, they cover the cost of stock, and packaging. Perhaps it would have been better if he had charged the amount it costs to buy one CD per product, and then added P&P to cover the sending costs.

You've got to remember that selling something that would be relatively easier to get free for such a nominal price, is not likely to be much of a money spinner. (After all, if you search for graphic updates, or logo packs, on google then the SI forums or sortitoutsi links are going to be very high up the search results - and I expect much higher up than this website).

As it is 4.1gb for the complete update, then he may actually be offering a very good service, as some people might not be able to download something that big. It would not be in his interests to just send out CD's purely at a loss, and unless you can prove that the £1.95 does result in personal profit, then the question of legality is no more prevalent with this website than it is with all the other updates available on the web that breach trademark and image rights.

Was about to post something quite similar, since I know it is the case with open source software, that although it is free. You can buy it in shops, but you are in fact just paying for the box, cd, manual, etc..., not the software. So if he isn't making a profit, my understanding is that he can distribute this way (this is only true if the information isn't copyrighted, or isn't freely aviable on the web)

p.s. just thought i'd highlight, my understanding, since I am not an expert in the field

[nmwaldron]

God, lets all wet our pants. He's charging 1.50 for this with FREE U.K postage. It's convienient for the user to have all of that content on one disk. I think it serves a purpose. Give the guy a break.

Some of you guys won't be happy until they're burning him at the stake. Life is too short.

[TomDixon77]

God, lets all wet our pants. He's charging 1.50 for this with FREE U.K postage. It's convienient for the user to have all of that content on one disk. I think it serves a purpose. Give the guy a break.

Some of you guys won't be happy until they're burning him at the stake. Life is too short.

I'll give him abreak when he stops claiming he created my skins.

[bigwills88]

You're right there are, but we can't do anything about a majority of those things whereas we can do something about this.

So you'll all gang up, bitterly pouring all your individual frustrations and insecurities on some bloke making a few bob extra a month from selling collections of data to be used in FM on data disks?

Petty, nasty, vindictive... I could go on but best not. I just can't find any sentence on that site that intimates he is responsible for the graphics, I do though see that he claims to be responsible for making them available through his DVD service.

[smurfdok]

I'll give him abreak when he stops claiming he created my skins.

Hear hear. That pretty much sums it all up. He is claiming that he has created all the updates/gfx etc etc that are on the disc, when in actual fact all he has done is leech them from all the sites he can visit and stick them all on a disc. Well THATS hard work. Perhaps if he were to re-write his whole blurb then most of us wouldnt have quite so much of a beef, but as it stands atm, hes a thief.

SDK

[Unterseeboot99]

all website content has been updated to suit your needs, collectively as a fm2008 community. Legal advice i have received tells me it is not illegal to sell service discs provided that the content is freely available on the public domain. All content on the disc is freely available on the public domain.

As for all your copyright issues, you can either have it one way or the other. Either a) ALL logo's , graphics etc are being illegally distributed either through pay sites or freely on the public domain

OR b) you can take logo's and graphics and either sell / give them away to make the FM2008 experience better.

So to summarise, either we are ALL in the wrong or we are ALL in the right. Simple really.

Oh, since this thread i have had an extra 1000 hits on my website. If you really want this to stop then free advertising on my behalf was not such a sensible move.

Remember. my dvd is NON-PROFIT making !! Just making life easier for all the FM2008 fans who are not so competent with searching the internet and downloading the files they need ! !

Finally, there are loads of guys selling graphics discs on ebay. Some of them charge loads more than me . . . . they sell more than me (making profit) . . . . and most of them claim to be the sole creators of the product. Maybe you could all harrass them and print their personal details on the web. That was not a sensible move either.

Kind Regards

[geronimo]

I draw everyones attention and in particular the SI team to this website - http://football-updates.com/index.htm

I have Pmd staff members here at SI Games, and I have also contacted them directly on the SI website. Frankly I am disappointed that nothing has been done about this. Not only is the guy an ass by stealing everyone elses work and claiming it as his own, but by SELLING graphical images of club logos and faces, he is breaking many many copyright laws. He also sells these discs on Ebay and I have reported him there also and nothing has been done about it either. Does no-one care anymore?

Something MUST be done about this guy and his website, it must be torn down from the interweb. I now urge you again SI Games, please get onto the case of this.

SDK

grass, aint you got better things to do, if you do believe it to be wrong, just contact the people who need to be contacted

why post it on here? to create a witch hunt? to get you some attention? to seek approval?

get a life

[roseboy64]

Much ado about nothing really if as he says above and can prove, that it's not for profit.

[r0x0r]

all website content has been updated to suit your needs, collectively as a fm2008 community. Legal advice i have received tells me it is not illegal to sell service discs provided that the content is freely available on the public domain. All content on the disc is freely available on the public domain.

As for all your copyright issues, you can either have it one way or the other. Either a) ALL logo's , graphics etc are being illegally distributed either through pay sites or freely on the public domain

OR b) you can take logo's and graphics and either sell / give them away to make the FM2008 experience better.

So to summarise, either we are ALL in the wrong or we are ALL in the right. Simple really.

Oh, since this thread i have had an extra 1000 hits on my website. If you really want this to stop then free advertising on my behalf was not such a sensible move.

Remember. my dvd is NON-PROFIT making !! Just making life easier for all the FM2008 fans who are not so competent with searching the internet and downloading the files they need ! !

Finally, there are loads of guys selling graphics discs on ebay. Some of them charge loads more than me . . . . they sell more than me (making profit) . . . . and most of them claim to be the sole creators of the product. Maybe you could all harrass them and print their personal details on the web. That was not a sensible move either.

Kind Regards

Free advertising? All of those clicks were from people who will NOT buy your product, as they already know where to get the stuff for free. All it's done is COST you in bandwidth fees.

You aren't all that smart, are you?

[roseboy64]

I'm pretty sure people clicked who were just curious.

[TomDixon77]

all website content has been updated to suit your needs, collectively as a fm2008 community. Legal advice i have received tells me it is not illegal to sell service discs provided that the content is freely available on the public domain. All content on the disc is freely available on the public domain.

As for all your copyright issues, you can either have it one way or the other. Either a) ALL logo's , graphics etc are being illegally distributed either through pay sites or freely on the public domain

OR b) you can take logo's and graphics and either sell / give them away to make the FM2008 experience better.

So to summarise, either we are ALL in the wrong or we are ALL in the right. Simple really.

Oh, since this thread i have had an extra 1000 hits on my website. If you really want this to stop then free advertising on my behalf was not such a sensible move.

Remember. my dvd is NON-PROFIT making !! Just making life easier for all the FM2008 fans who are not so competent with searching the internet and downloading the files they need ! !

Finally, there are loads of guys selling graphics discs on ebay. Some of them charge loads more than me . . . . they sell more than me (making profit) . . . . and most of them claim to be the sole creators of the product. Maybe you could all harrass them and print their personal details on the web. That was not a sensible move either.

Kind Regards

Okay, taking you at your word, would you mind awfully removing the "©football-updates.com" watermarking from your screenshots, as they imply it's your work, when it's not. Oh and I'd change the highly misleading blurb on your website. Do you really think that if it was possible for SI to get, for example, the FA Premier League license, that they wouldn't? EA have that one sewn up tighter than a gnat's chuff. I'd like to ask you to remove my skins, but you wouldn't, so I'm not going to bother.

[Pope of Pot, King of Nothi]

I'm just amazed someone called someone else a grass on this forum. Wasn't sure I'd ever see that. :/

[smurfdok]

grass, aint you got better things to do, if you do believe it to be wrong, just contact the people who need to be contacted

why post it on here? to create a witch hunt? to get you some attention? to seek approval?

get a life

Youve obviously never spent weeks or months working on creating something unique and then have some dumbass claim it as his own work then have you. I dont believe any of my posts are narcisistic or trying to highlight myself, I felt that people whos work was being falsely claimed as his own had a right to know about it and highlight THAT fact more than any other.

Thank you for your support on this matter...NUMBNUTS

Also, to Unterseeboot - You have added the non-profit making message to your website, but the rest of your site is still claiming that you create all these updates. How about actually teling the truth and simply state that you have gathered material created by fans of the game from around the Football Manager Scene and actually CREDIT THEM for the work? That would be an acceptable gesture to make I believe.

SDK

[Unterseeboot99]

Youve obviously never spent weeks or months working on creating something unique and then have some dumbass claim it as his own work then have you. I dont believe any of my posts are narcisistic or trying to highlight myself, I felt that people whos work was being falsely claimed as his own had a right to know about it and highlight THAT fact more than any other.

Thank you for your support on this matter...NUMBNUTS

Also, to Unterseeboot - You have added the non-profit making message to your website, but the rest of your site is still claiming that you create all these updates. How about actually teling the truth and simply state that you have gathered material created by fans of the game from around the Football Manager Scene and actually CREDIT THEM for the work? That would be an acceptable gesture to make I believe.

SDK

I am in the process of updating the pages on my site where appropriate. But, i wont be removing the watermark from my pictures. They dont imply that i created anything but they do prevent other ebay users (rich0135) from using my pictures and the website i pay for.

[Unterseeboot99]

Now that i have given what you ask, how about stopping this ridiculous witchhunt? You do all know that i am NOT Usama Bin-Laden, dont you???

[digsy11]

Now that i have given what you ask, how about stopping this ridiculous witchhunt? You do all know that i am NOT Usama Bin-Laden, dont you???

lol I understand all their points but I'm not gonna chastise you for what you did.I actually think it's helpful to people who DON'T use these forums or know these free downloads exist.As long as what your doing is legal then where's the problem.

[montrosefc]

I made those Celtic kits last season, but did make them freely available as public domain.

I have no real objection to someone compiling them as part of a collection, after all not everyone has fast internet connections.

One thing I would hope however is that my readme/credit is still available within the original file structure.

[digsy11]

I made those Celtic kits last season, but did make them freely available as public domain.

I have no real objection to someone compiling them as part of a collection, after all not everyone has fast internet connections.

One thing I would hope however is that my readme/credit is still available within the original file structure.

Respect and well said you.Like I say as long as it's legal then surely this chap is contributing to the enjoyment of less informed FM players.

[jod123]

As long as it is legal, fully credits the creators of the graphics and so on and is not making a profit from it then I agree that it is fine and is helpful. To be fair, though, I think asking permission to use them would not have been a bad idea either.

I certainly give you a thumbs up for coming on here to explain your side of the story though.

[Unterseeboot99]

As long as it is legal, fully credits the creators of the graphics and so on and is not making a profit from it then I agree that it is fine and is helpful. To be fair, though, I think asking permission to use them would not have been a bad idea either.

I certainly give you a thumbs up for coming on here to explain your side of the story though.

I have kept ALL of the read-me files so the people who use the discs will see that YOU created them (Celtic man).

As for explaining my side of things, I feel i have to because i dont want to make an enemy of the FM2008 community. I have been contributing to updates for CM and FM games since the early 90's but the last 2 years i have been too busy to do anything, so i make service discs.

You may think its a cop-out, bt at the end of the day people need choices. Some people dont know where to look and use Ebay as a sort of "run home to Mama" when they dont know what else to do.

Its also painfully obvious to me that other people are selling these discs at prices greater than mine and yet i find no threads on here asking for their domain details etc etc ! !

Still, i'm sure i havent head the last of this from some of you so i look forward to more debating.

Regards

[Themistofelis]

OK but it is illegal , you can not distribute club's logos , not even for free

Even writing and distributing subtitles for movies is illegal , interesting that you came here to defend your illegal work

PS i support Osama & witches but not you.

[Rickooko]

If i were you i wont show up in here at all.

[amadeo]

What about all of us who make the stadium, logo packs and so on... Isnt this "illegal" because we dont have the right to use the pictures?? Selling it is just to take it to another level??

[SCIAG]

amadeo, I think it's okay for private use, but selling a disk with them on...

[Glyn]

Remember. my dvd is NON-PROFIT making !!

At £3.49 each? I very much doubt that.

Also, if this disc is merely a 'service' for FM fans making it easier for those that don't want to spend time downloading things themselves, why not provide links to the data for those that do? You wouldn't lose any profit, right? And you'd be providing an even better 'service'.

[Unterseeboot99]

What about all of us who make the stadium, logo packs and so on... Isnt this "illegal" because we dont have the right to use the pictures?? Selling it is just to take it to another level??

EXACTLY RIGHT. It doesnt matter if you copy a picture/logo/background etc and either sell it or give it away. If it is illegal, we are all in the wrong. If it is legal then we are all in the right. !!

[Unterseeboot99]

At £3.49 each? I very much doubt that.

Also, if this disc is merely a 'service' for FM fans making it easier for those that don't want to spend time downloading things themselves, why not provide links to the data for those that do? You wouldn't lose any profit, right? And you'd be providing an even better 'service'.

Because i dont have enough space on my domain to host all the information. Providing the links isnt enough for some people as they dont know how to correctly collate the data and present it into my documents / program files in order to make the game run smoothly.

[Themistofelis]

If it was legal then SI team are so stupid not to make packs themselves and distribute it for free

You can make anything for personal use , giving it even to your mother makes it illegal

[robterrace]

EXACTLY RIGHT. It doesnt matter if you copy a picture/logo/background etc and either sell it or give it away. If it is illegal, we are all in the wrong. If it is legal then we are all in the right. !!

My understanding is that any images created by fans for use in the game are their respective copyright (under Creative Commons Licencing IIRC), and even though they are available in the public domain (and on sites like Sortitoutsi and the like), they will always remain the property of the copyright holder. Sites like Sortitoutsi provide a service which allows the Graphic (and other pack makers) makers to host their files, without losing the ability to claim their work as their own.

Now, a little side thought on the image/copyright scenario.

I am a part time photographer (when I'm not doing my fulltime job), and recently had a problem in which several of my images were stolen from my site and used on another site (without permission), with the other guy claiming them as his own. I ended up taking the case through small claims court and won £900 + costs, as I was able to prove I was the owner of the said images. I'm not saying that this is the way it could end up, but, I believe that some users could stand a good chance on some grounds.

[paulmatthewbrowne]

why not contact "Mrsite.com"