Project Invincible - Recreating the Arsenal Invincibles

[Cleon]

Cleon reading your thread makes me want to recreate the Invincibles with the current Arsenal squad. I think I have players that could possibly fit the roles. For example maybe Ozil could play the Bergkamp role, Sanchez could hit the Henry role for now and maybe Cazorla for the Pires role. I just want to get your advice on what you think about my ideas. I do not know if the board will agree with my long term plans but we have to wait and see. We have great Academy at Arsenal so I will try and develop the next Bergkamp and Henry , Pires, Viera and Gilberto through my Academy. But in the mean time I have to work with current squad. Almost forgot what are your thoughts on Pogba for the Viera role

I think Ozil is more Pires than Bergkamp although his PPM's are some of those needed. I still think he'd be a better Pires though.

[Oppiiz]

Just came home from work, and you made my day! More to read!

I have two questions tho. About the tactic side. I am trying to use your idea and recreate something also.

1. The closing down instruction. What do you use? As you said that they are not a very pressing side. Is "sometimes or less the right one"?

2. About the width instruction. What do you use? I can't really figure this one out. I have a feeling if I use "Wide" I wont get any assists by through ball, or am I totally mistaken here?

I've never been a great tactician. But after reading countless of your posts, I like to think I've gotten a little better.

Thank you for the time you take to write all these articles! Much appreciated! Looking forward to the next one!

[Cleon]

Just came home from work, and you made my day! More to read!

I have two questions tho. About the tactic side. I am trying to use your idea and recreate something also.

1. The closing down instruction. What do you use? As you said that they are not a very pressing side. Is "sometimes or less the right one"?

2. About the width instruction. What do you use? I can't really figure this one out. I have a feeling if I use "Wide" I wont get any assists by through ball, or am I totally mistaken here?

I've never been a great tactician. But after reading countless of your posts, I like to think I've gotten a little better.

Thank you for the time you take to write all these articles! Much appreciated! Looking forward to the next one!

Default on both accounts. You can see the screenshots of the team instructions I use in one of the first posts. If I had changed either of those instructions they would have showed as being TI's

[Oppiiz]

Default on both accounts. You can see the screenshots of the team instructions I use in one of the first posts. If I had changed either of those instructions they would have showed as being TI's

Oh! I did not know that! Now I kinda feel dumb.. Anyhow, thanks for a great post and the answer! Looking forward to the next one!

[Jean0987654321]

Don't really get the cheating witch hunt, either. Grow up. Its only a game. And guys like Cleon, RTH, Hook, Jambo, me, etc, etc, etc are around to help people on how to play the game. It's not life or death or anything as we could always walk away

I have done back-to-back-to-back promotions before. No cheating

So, it isn't that hard to get a team going and winning a lot of games. This is once again a great thread, Cleon but I got some questions

1) Why did you not make your Bergkamp a treq (either in striker or AM strata)?? I think this well emulates the role of him because he was always looking for space and he wasn't anywhere near the box as you have said in your previous experiment. Don't want another playmaker to ruin your counterattacking tactic? (Then maybe AM (a) w/ Roam+Move Into Channels?)

2) You have chosen some interesting PPMs for Toure but it would be a bit more easier to choose the BPD role?? As I remember there was only one true defender in that backline because Wenger liked defenders that were good on the ball.

3) Closing Down?? Interesting choice. I always thought that Wenger liked players to Close Down to win the back but you have left it well alone.

4) Why not opt on "Work Ball Into Box" PI? When I was a kid, I remember Arsenal patiently working the ball around. I don't remember goals coming in from crosses often.

And some others you already explained so I won't bother asking those. (I think Fluid sounds about right instead of Flexible still)

[Cleon]

1- I've not spoke about the role we have arrived at for Bergkamp yet. Remember, the role in the opening posts is what I was starting out as, not what the final aim is. We'll see more on this in the coming days though.

2- I don't want the player to naturally attract the ball

3 - If you watch the games back from this period, Arsenal were quite passive and only aggressive with the ball. They held positions and dropped deep to defend in numbers rather than hassle teams to win the ball back.

4 - Arsenal scored 34% of their goals during the Invincible season from 18 yards or greater, which is quite a high amount. Working the ball into the box, I'd reduce the chance of the goals from distance they scored. People like Pires scored quite a few goals in and around the edge of the box.

[vincenzo143]

3 - If you watch the games back from this period, Arsenal were quite passive and only aggressive with the ball. They held positions and dropped deep to defend in numbers rather than hassle teams to win the ball back.

I think this has always been a feature of Wenger's sides, this is not to say that they dont press at times, because they do. I do however think that Wenger prefers his teams to be really compact in defense, the press usually comes from the players higher up the pitch rather than the defense. Or is more of a team press, but I definitely think he prefers the team to maintain their shape when defending, rather than leave gaps through pressing.

[Jean0987654321]

I think this has always been a feature of Wenger's sides, this is not to say that they dont press at times, because they do. I do however think that Wenger prefers his teams to be really compact in defense, the press usually comes from the players higher up the pitch rather than the defense. Or is more of a team press, but I definitely think he prefers the team to maintain their shape when defending, rather than leave gaps through pressing.

Close Down More TI, then??

[vincenzo143]

Close Down More TI, then??

No, I dont think so. But that's just my opinion of Arsenal under Wenger in general. What I mean is that to me it seems that Arsenal look to defend as a compact unit rather than pressing their opponents in a man to man or 2 man press. You might see Giroud or Ozil look to press the backline after losing the ball, but once the ball passes them, then the midfield looks to hold their shape rather than to press as much as Ozil or Giroud.

In FM terms, perhaps the real life Arsenal would have the front 2 close down more, but I think that they would have default closing down as a team.

[Kieran87]

I am stuck to the edge of my seat, whether it is at home or when i'm meant to be working hard hitting deadlines at work waiting for this article.

The level of detail and thought process you lay out for us all to understand is phenomenal and a great benefit you are bestowing upon us.

Thanks for this and once again like all others no doubt in this thread, I am looking on salivating, waiting for the next submission and then the next.

[James9]

I think Ozil is more Pires than Bergkamp although his PPM's are some of those needed. I still think he'd be a better Pires though.

Thanks Cleon. Would you have any suggestions for the Bergkamp role. I was thinking Ozil, but after your advice and careful consideration you are right he seems more Pires. Because Ozil is left footed. If I put him on the left to try and create the Pires would that affect him cutting in like Pires use to. Cleon with Ozil being a left footed player does this mean that I have to create the Pires role on the right to accommodate Ozil left foot so he can cut inside. If I did that how would this change the way the formation is set up and played. Would I have to change around the position of players like for example Ozil on the right would the mean the Cole role is now the right back Bellerin. I really want to hear your thoughts on what you would do in this situation. Thanks in advance

[Toffle]

Really nice project, thanks Cleon.

Some of your during-the-game screenshots definitely reminds me of the Invincibles. I can't wait to see the final result when you will be done building your squad.

It would be amazing if you could create the Invincibles squad on the editor and see at the end of the project how they're doing with the tactic you end up with.

[25251325zz]

Can you write more about how this tactic work in defend ? In my opinion, one of the most irritating with 4-4-2 in FM is that 2 strikers seems to be too high and dont involve much in defend causing lack of defensive body in front of goal. Especially against better opponent like Arsenal, how can you overcome them in defend when your fullback is not ideal and Bellerin and Sanchez were still there. I always have problem with defending against better opponents and used to switch mentality, defensive line and width or even formation but defending seems never be a trouble with you :/

[Cleon]

Thanks Cleon. Would you have any suggestions for the Bergkamp role. I was thinking Ozil, but after your advice and careful consideration you are right he seems more Pires. Because Ozil is left footed. If I put him on the left to try and create the Pires would that affect him cutting in like Pires use to. Cleon with Ozil being a left footed player does this mean that I have to create the Pires role on the right to accommodate Ozil left foot so he can cut inside. If I did that how would this change the way the formation is set up and played. Would I have to change around the position of players like for example Ozil on the right would the mean the Cole role is now the right back Bellerin. I really want to hear your thoughts on what you would do in this situation. Thanks in advance

Well remember this is my version and interpretation of how I believed they played. You should focus on your own rather than trying to copy what I'm doing because as you can see it takes a lot of planning and squad building and player development is much bigger than the tactic itself.

I'm going for an exact replicate of how I believed they played. I can't tell you what to do in the scenario you posted as it's not a scenario I would have ever gave myself because it wouldn't be identical to what I'm trying to achieve. Even if you flipped it all around, I still wouldn't do that if it was me. What you need to do is focus on what it is exactly you are trying to do. I don't mean to sound like an arse but everything you ask is like you want my validation or for me to play your game and make the decisions for you, which I won't be doing.

I share ideas and show people how I get things working but that's as far as it goes. Ultimately how you play and what you want to create has to come from you and be something you are comfortable with and know about. This is why decision making has to come from you and not me because you will be the one playing the game. It's no use me telling you to flip this around and do that because you might not understand why I advised that.

I've set the outline out of what I want to achieve in the opening posts. It's down to your interpretation and do with it as you see fit. You may agree with some of the things and you may disagree. But what's important is you do your own take on it and make it work for you. So if you think reversing a role or the whole shape will work better for you, then make that decision. It doesn't matter what I think at the end of the day

I don't mean to sound harsh, I just want people to take the initiative more often and stop seeking validation for every single decision they make.

I am stuck to the edge of my seat, whether it is at home or when i'm meant to be working hard hitting deadlines at work waiting for this article.

The level of detail and thought process you lay out for us all to understand is phenomenal and a great benefit you are bestowing upon us.

Thanks for this and once again like all others no doubt in this thread, I am looking on salivating, waiting for the next submission and then the next.

Haha thanks

Really nice project, thanks Cleon.

Some of your during-the-game screenshots definitely reminds me of the Invincibles. I can't wait to see the final result when you will be done building your squad.

It would be amazing if you could create the Invincibles squad on the editor and see at the end of the project how they're doing with the tactic you end up with.

I'd love to do that but sadly I don't have the time or patience for that

[James9]

I think Ozil is more Pires than Bergkamp although his PPM's are some of those needed. I still think he'd be a better Pires though.

Well remember this is my version and interpretation of how I believed they played. You should focus on your own rather than trying to copy what I'm doing because as you can see it takes a lot of planning and squad building and player development is much bigger than the tactic itself.

I'm going for an exact replicate of how I believed they played. I can't tell you what to do in the scenario you posted as it's not a scenario I would have ever gave myself because it wouldn't be identical to what I'm trying to achieve. Even if you flipped it all around, I still wouldn't do that if it was me. What you need to do is focus on what it is exactly you are trying to do. I don't mean to sound like an arse but everything you ask is like you want my validation or for me to play your game and make the decisions for you, which I won't be doing.

I share ideas and show people how I get things working but that's as far as it goes. Ultimately how you play and what you want to create has to come from you and be something you are comfortable with and know about. This is why decision making has to come from you and not me because you will be the one playing the game. It's no use me telling you to flip this around and do that because you might not understand why I advised that.

I've set the outline out of what I want to achieve in the opening posts. It's down to your interpretation and do with it as you see fit. You may agree with some of the things and you may disagree. But what's important is you do your own take on it and make it work for you. So if you think reversing a role or the whole shape will work better for you, then make that decision. It doesn't matter what I think at the end of the day

I don't mean to sound harsh, I just want people to take the initiative more often and stop seeking validation for every single decision they make.

Haha thanks

I'd love to do that but sadly I don't have the time or patience for that

Cleon please do not feel like you are being harsh. I guess you want props to understand how they want to play the game than you giving the them answers. Sorry if I seem to be asking lot of questions, it is because you are such an expert. I always wanted to recreate the Arsenal of 03 - 04. I am a Arsenal fan this was the best years and the best teams. When I read what you wanted to do I got excited. However when I looked at the current Arsenal team I thought how am I going to create my dream, so I thought let me ask Cleon. I thank you for trying to create the Invincibles. I am looking forward to your post on the Betgkamp role. I am still thinking Ozil will fit after I retrain him to play as a Striker. I will wait to read your thoughts in the Betgkamp role and then I I might decide to put that idea to bed.

Thanks once again

[Cleon]

Cleon please do not feel like you are being harsh. I guess you want props to understand how they want to play the game than you giving the them answers. Sorry if I seem to be asking lot of questions, it is because you are such an expert. I always wanted to recreate the Arsenal of 03 - 04. I am a Arsenal fan this was the best years and the best teams. When I read what you wanted to do I got excited. However when I looked at the current Arsenal team I thought how am I going to create my dream, so I thought let me ask Cleon. I thank you for trying to create the Invincibles. I am looking forward to your post on the Betgkamp role. I am still thinking Ozil will fit after I retrain him to play as a Striker. I will wait to read your thoughts in the Betgkamp role and then I I might decide to put that idea to bed.

Thanks once again

Thanks for taking the comments the right way

I don't mind people asking questions, not at all and encourage it. It's more the 'how should I play' questions that I don't answer or can't really help with.

I did use Ozil on a different save with a different side and a different kind of style. He was my F9 and was excellent. He's a quality player and can play anywhere really

[James9]

I think Ozil is more Pires than Bergkamp although his PPM's are some of those needed. I still think he'd be a better Pires though.

Thanks for taking the comments the right way

I don't mind people asking questions, not at all and encourage it. It's more the 'how should I play' questions that I don't answer or can't really help with.

I did use Ozil on a different save with a different side and a different kind of style. He was my F9 and was excellent. He's a quality player and can play anywhere really

Thanks Cleon. Could you let me know when we could expect your ideas on the Bergkamp role. The reason why I am so stubborn with regards to Ozil playing the Bergkamp role is because I watched a couple of interviews from Wenger and Henry who are comparing him to Bergkamp on current form. I think they describe him as the closet think to Bergkamp. Henry said the difference between Ozil and Bergkamp is goals. He said if Ozil can add the goals to his game then there would not be much different between the two players. Ozil's PPM seem to be ideal for the Bergkamp role. That is why I cannot wait for your views on the Bergkamp role.

[sirfletch2006]

I've been trying to recreate this.

Tried Ozil up front too, but hes too lightweight and drifts in and out of games. Bergkamp was the lynchpin and a lot tougher than people gave him credit for.

Also bought Breel Embolo to be a long term Ljungberg, found out he has the 'play with back to goal' ppm. Doh.

[Conflictinbanno]

Cleon this is such an interesting article and I'm very interested to see how your side ends up.

One thing I do wonder though, is how you keep saying the squad building in this is probably more important than the tactic itself. I can understand why as you obviously need a specific set of players to perform in the exact way you saw the Arsenal side playing. However when you went about setting your base tactic and TI's etc. you seem to have got your Sheffield United team performing it at least half decently already as you climb up the leagues. I tried pushing my own tactical idea on to West Ham, despite not having the perfect players for the roles and I just found it looked like the team couldn't do it (I mentioned it in my own thread), is that because your tactic is actually less demanding on specific types of players and the more complete article will come with the new players you've trained? As I have noticed, a lot of the roles you have at the moment aren't too specialist as such, other than maybe the RPM and CWB? Or am I looking too much into it haha.

[Cleon]

One thing I do wonder though, is how you keep saying the squad building in this is probably more important than the tactic itself. I can understand why as you obviously need a specific set of players to perform in the exact way you saw the Arsenal side playing. However when you went about setting your base tactic and TI's etc. you seem to have got your Sheffield United team performing it at least half decently already as you climb up the leagues

I think you might be confusing results with playstyle here. Yes I've had good results but the manner in which I was playing was nothing like the Invincibles at all. I might have seen the odd moment that could be mistaken for something from that era but don't be fooled into thinking I had some sort of semi decent style going. If I had, I'd have stopped when I finished 2nd in the Prem because for most, that would have been good enough. However the style was not what we wanted and not even close.

I tried pushing my own tactical idea on to West Ham, despite not having the perfect players for the roles and I just found it looked like the team couldn't do it (I mentioned it in my own thread)

You seem surprised by this, why? You should have expected it no? You admit you don't have the players for it. Sure, they'll be playing football but not the brand you want. That's why squad building is vital. In the mean time you just make the best of what's available.

is that because your tactic is actually less demanding on specific types of players and the more complete article will come with the new players you've trained?

Why is mine less demanding? Maybe I just accept and understood I can't play the style of football I want yet where as you are wanting more instant success and this is the real underlying issue?

As I have noticed, a lot of the roles you have at the moment aren't too specialist as such, other than maybe the RPM and CWB? Or am I looking too much into it haha.

Looking far too much into things. I don't subscribe to the speciliast vs generalist concept either, its an outdated concept that was never really a concept to begin with. The game treats them no different to other roles. It was meant as a guide for beginners to give them a basic overview and keep things simple. Since then people have took it and run with it, to mean something it actually doesn't. Always choose roles because they fit your style and the play you want. Never because you subscribe to some theory about generalist/specialist concept. As what you're building from is already flawed.

[Cleon]

Post 9 UPDATED

[Conflictinbanno]

I think you might be confusing results with playstyle here. Yes I've had good results but the manner in which I was playing was nothing like the Invincibles at all. I might have seen the odd moment that could be mistaken for something from that era but don't be fooled into thinking I had some sort of semi decent style going. If I had, I'd have stopped when I finished 2nd in the Prem because for most, that would have been good enough. However the style was not what we wanted and not even close.

I think you are right here, I thought you were getting some similarities with the roles at least so just thought it might have been getting a lot more similarities so that was definitely my mistake.

You seem surprised by this, why? You should have expected it no? You admit you don't have the players for it. Sure, they'll be playing football but not the brand you want. That's why squad building is vital. In the mean time you just make the best of what's available.

I wasn't completely surprised, but at the same time I think I expected better than what I was seeing, it almost drew the attention to me that they were nowhere near capable of doing the idea in my head from what I had available, I couldn't see how to get close to what I wanted while also accepting the squad isn't ready. I think this was more my mistake of how I saw your possession/counter attacking threads, where you may not have had the perfect squad yet still managed to impose that style onto them quite well.

I'll be honest, I really struggle to build tactics to how I want to play, but I think part of it could be me over complicating it a lot. Yet on my Ipswich save I picked a formation based on the players I had, which seems to have been more successful. I'm not going to give up, but it has made me step back from the save and try to rethink how I can get the ideas from my head into teams when the players may not be yet of the right standard and what to do differently, like a different set of roles to get a similar idea or maybe wait until I can recruit enough replacements to do it.

Anyway I don't want to detract from the fabulous thread so I'll not pester you there and update mine if I can bring myself to go back into that save.

I look forward to reading more on this however!

[Cleon]

I wasn't completely surprised, but at the same time I think I expected better than what I was seeing, it almost drew the attention to me that they were nowhere near capable of doing the idea in my head from what I had available, I couldn't see how to get close to what I wanted while also accepting the squad isn't ready. I think this was more my mistake of how I saw your possession/counter attacking threads, where you may not have had the perfect squad yet still managed to impose that style onto them quite well.

Those styles of play though are more generic and any team can play those. You just keep improving each year until it's at an acceptable level or standard for what you need. However every team can counter attack and every team can keep possession if they want. Some better than others of course but that doesn't mean you still can't. However if you go for a more specific style like the one in this thread or other real life tactics then it'll likely take longer to implement if you have a squad not suitable to your current ideas.

I'm not going to give up, but it has made me step back from the save and try to rethink how I can get the ideas from my head into teams when the players may not be yet of the right standard and what to do differently, like a different set of roles to get a similar idea or maybe wait until I can recruit enough replacements to do it.

Anyway I don't want to detract from the fabulous thread so I'll not pester you there and update mine if I can bring myself to go back into that save.

I look forward to reading more on this however!

Write the ideas down if needed and plan on paper. Question the roles you use and ask if they offer what you need in the side and do they link with the other roles you use. Identify who the likely scorers will be then identify how they will receive the ball and who supply's them with it. Then look at who are the players offering support to the attacking players and equally, who is providing the cover so you don't leave yourself open.

[Paul Scholes]

Why support duty for "Pires position"? I think he drifted very often forward in free space without the ball.

[Cleon]

Why support duty for "Pires position"? I think he drifted very often forward in free space without the ball.

I talk about why in at least 3 of the articles and mentioned it in the analysis part I added yesterday.

[themadsheep2001]

Excellent stuff, even better than I thought I would be. This is something we've been discussing on and off for a couple of years now. Going to work on this during my second season, might post some of my thoughts on here if that's ok?

I'll put some screenshots up later, but I'd argue my current Man United squad (going into 2nd season) will be a pretty close approximation of the Invincibles side (you'll be particularly pleases with my Dennis "Bergkamp" player)

[Cleon]

Excellent stuff, even better than I thought I would be. This is something we've been discussing on and off for a couple of years now. Going to work on this during my second season, might post some of my thoughts on here if that's ok?

I'll put some screenshots up later, but I'd argue my current Man United squad (going into 2nd season) will be a pretty close approximation of the Invincibles side (you'll be particularly pleases with my Dennis "Bergkamp" player)

That would be fantastic if you did yeah. We've been discussing the basic ideas and dabbled with the Invincibles, for what, about 3 years now?

I'm fascinated to see who you use for the Bergkamp role and the Vieira one. Those are the key roles I think if I had to pick two that have gave me the biggest headache. I think the penny just dropped on who your Bergkamp player is while writing this

[vincenzo143]

but I'd argue my current Man United squad (going into 2nd season)

Thankfully for your sake, its YOUR Man Utd in the 2nd season rather than Van Gaal's Utd this season Otherwise you might battle to score! All jokes aside, I'd be really interested to see what you've developed and how closely the style resembles the Invincibles.

[themadsheep2001]

That would be fantastic if you did yeah. We've been discussing the basic ideas and dabbled with the Invincibles, for what, about 3 years now?

I'm fascinated to see who you use for the Bergkamp role and the Vieira one. Those are the key roles I think if I had to pick two that have gave me the biggest headache. I think the penny just dropped on who your Bergkamp player is while writing this

I picked him up both to replace Rooney and because I had this in mind at some point . Already had "Henry" and "Pires" in Martial and Mata, and brought in Reus because I wanted an all round forward player to cover all the roles, but actually he is perfect for Ljungberg, but I didnt quite have the Vieira role until this summer, and that transfer after reading this article has made me really want to dig back into it. Screens and info likely to be up tomorrow at some point.

[Paul Scholes]

Cleon, what do you think about "enganche" role for "Bergkamp position"?

[Cleon]

Cleon, what do you think about "enganche" role for "Bergkamp position"?

It doesn't offer what he does, it sits too high up the pitch and doesn't drop back beyond his own halfway line, something his current role does. Plus it would mean I couldn't play a flat 442, something else I wouldn't compromise on as that would have made things easier.

[vincenzo143]

Cleon, what do you think about "enganche" role for "Bergkamp position"?

I'm definitely not Cleon, but surely that role is far too static for someone like Bergkamp?

[Toffle]

Too bad Romero is struggling learning new PPMs. Another reason (I think) why you shouldn't be unsatisfied with him scoring too many goals is that he doesn't have Henry next to him yet. I'm sure if Arsenal had less talented strikers at that time Berkgamp would have tried to be more decisive too.

[Oppiiz]

Yes! Another article to read! You have made my day again, Cleon! Thanks!

[James9]

Wow Cleon that write up on the Bergkamp role is really good. Now I believe that Ozil is not the player for the role. Because I am playing as Arsenal hopefully my scouts can find me a player to shape into the Bergkamp role. I feel bad for Giroud he just not fit what I am looking for and I would have to sell him. The search begins for the Dutch Master Part 2

[Cleon]

Wow Cleon that write up on the Bergkamp role is really good. Now I believe that Ozil is not the player for the role. Because I am playing as Arsenal hopefully my scouts can find me a player to shape into the Bergkamp role. I feel bad for Giroud he just not fit what I am looking for and I would have to sell him. The search begins for the Dutch Master Part 2

You could use Giroud as a different option more in the Kanu mould.

[chroniclesofal]

There are a few players in the current Arsenal team that you could use. Welbeck is a decent shout for Wiltord, Walcott shares Ljungberg's limited skill-set of being great at off-the-ball running and finishing, Ramsey could be developed in the Vieira role and Wilshere could be used as Edu. The full-backs are kind of swapped around though, with Bellerin like Cole and Monreal a bit like Lauren.

[Jean0987654321]

Wow Cleon that write up on the Bergkamp role is really good. Now I believe that Ozil is not the player for the role. Because I am playing as Arsenal hopefully my scouts can find me a player to shape into the Bergkamp role. I feel bad for Giroud he just not fit what I am looking for and I would have to sell him. The search begins for the Dutch Master Part 2

From my experience, Hakan from Bayer can be bought for about 45M and you can sell Ozil and get him and man, oh man. He is PERFECT for Bergkamp role :o

Also maybe a successor like Jhon Arango could be bought on the cheap in the first days. Also someone who can be shaped to be a Bergkamp. Henry role is perfect for Alexis. Has the PPMs for it. Roams to the left and able to use his right. Don't know what you can do with Giroud expect sell.

[James9]

I think Ozil is more Pires than Bergkamp although his PPM's are some of those needed. I still think he'd be a better Pires though.

You could use Giroud as a different option more in the Kanu mould.

Sorry Cleon you mentioned Kanu mould for Giroud. Did I miss something in your thread, did you do a write for the Kanu role also. I would have to go back and look at YouTube because I always thought Kanu was a more like Bergkamp but with less skills and ability. I feel bad in asking but what PPM would suggest for a player to fit in the Kanu role and what role and duty would you give such a player.

I am very excited by the thread. I love Arsenal and I admire the Invincibles. Maybe now With your help and advice Ibcan create the Arsenal team I have been trying to create for so many years. Great work mate

[James9]

I think Ozil is more Pires than Bergkamp although his PPM's are some of those needed. I still think he'd be a better Pires though.

There are a few players in the current Arsenal team that you could use. Welbeck is a decent shout for Wiltord, Walcott shares Ljungberg's limited skill-set of being great at off-the-ball running and finishing, Ramsey could be developed in the Vieira role and Wilshere could be used as Edu. The full-backs are kind of swapped around though, with Bellerin like Cole and Monreal a bit like Lauren.

What would be the Wiltord and Edu role in terms of role and duty. I did not read Cleon mention these players so was just wondering.

[chroniclesofal]

What would be the Wiltord and Edu role in terms of role and duty. I did not read Cleon mention these players so was just wondering.

I'm not sure if Cleon is planning on covering the squad players, but for me it depends on where they played. Wiltord often played out wide, and maybe you could say he was more of a W(S), although he would regularly cut inside as well like an inside forward, so you could probably use him as a tweaked WM(A) like Cleon has done with Ljungberg. Up front he often played on the shoulder of the defence, so perhaps an AF(A) or a P(A)? As for Edu, when he played with Vieira I'd have him as a DLP(D) but when he played instead of Vieira probably a DLP(S), although maybe RPM(S) would suit. He played out wide now and then too I believe, so I'd probably have him down as some sort of WM(S) in those situations.

[allyc31]

@Cleon

This is really excellent. I've been wanting to try this for sometime with Everton so this will be a great help (Brendan Galloway could be the perfect modern day Viera. We'll see).

Thanks especially for the links as they proved very informative.

A few quick questions though;

1. What about a False 9 for Bergkamp? The description seems to fit quite well but the role has Runs with Ball often so i assume thats why you went with the DLF Support?

2. Similarly, i was thinking about trying (when my child allows me 5 seconds) with the Defensive Forward on Defend but having the player know the PPI Tries Killer Balls often? That would allow them to come deep, put the foot in and still be a creative outlet?

3. How have you found your Henry's movement eg drifting out wide? My Henry (bit of a weird sentence) seems to be quite stationary in the middle of the park. I intend to have him mark the Rb but loosely to try and encourage him to go wide (but hopefully not track back).

4. How would you rate Amy Lawrence's book? I always liked her on The Football Weekly but i'd be interested if it was more a book about the tactics employed during the time period rather than a book about the comings and goings at the club.

Thanks again for the great read. I may not get to play FM as much as i like anymore but it's still a lot of fun coming on here and seeing people talk this thoroughly about the game.

[sirfletch2006]

I'm in my second season, have been scouring the database for a Dennis Bergkamp without any success.

The solution might have been in my squad already, Ainsley Maitland-Niles. He's got great teamwork and flair and decent physical and technical stats, some of his mentals need improvement but hes got lots of potential.

Also no preferred moves.

[pataroka]

Man, I just love reading your articles... Might I suggest you check how Iver Fossum, and Daniel Amartey have turned out in your save game - in mine they look almost like a perfect Vieira/Gilberto replica:

Fossum already comes with Vieira-sque PPMs. Unfortunately, Amartey's PPMs should be removed if he is to be anything resembling Gilberto. True, the aggression attributes should be the other way around, as I believe Vieira was far more aggressive player than Gilberto, but hey it can't be perfect With this PPM setup though, Amartey could also fill in an early-Arsenal-days Vieira role, when he played deeper and was shooting more frequently.

And a quick question for you. Are you considering player personalities and mental attributes, when choosing players for the long term, cause I believe that was also a big part of what the Invincibles squad was. I would not consider a player with less than 15 determination, unless I have a senior squad member that can change this through mentoring. With this in mind, a couple of inputs on your current long-term acquisitions:

Rajkovic's strenght is ok, but, mental traits look very far from Lehman, who I believe was a Perfectionist(good Ambition, Determination, Professionalism, low temperament), his tendency to punch also seems a bit high, compared to a keeper, who made a football seem like a handball, and was making some of the best one-handed saves ever seen in the game. Lehman was a dying breed of a goalkeeper, like Kahn, Schmeichel, Van der Saar even Friedel in his best days. There are not many like that nowadays. A physically strong keeper that cannot be bullied in the box, and that relies on his positioning instead of making showtime dives to keep the ball out.

Romero may be or train technically to become your Bergkamp, but he lacks the aggression and bravery Bergkamp had. This might seem unimportant if we concentrate on the attacking part of the Invincibles, but as far as I recall Bergkamp's role on the pitch was not just a pure number 10, especially when the team met opponents of equal stature like United, Chelsea, Liverpool. Bergkamp was then more of a defensive forward type, always looking to harass defenders and deep-lying midfielders in an attempt to disrupt the opponents' build-up play, and launch a counter attack. I doubt Romero will ever have that in your game.

Iheanacho is also far away from Henry, but well I don't know if there are any Model Citizens in the game at all. At least I haven't seen one. In terms of technical - obviously he will not be your main set-piece taker, and looking at his teamwork and mental attributes he's not suited for the Henry role, by a mile. People often get carried away by Henry's goals, forgetting that he still holds the Arsenal record for most assists in a season(though probably Ozil will surpass that this term), and he provided to his teammates as often as he scored. If you could switch the physical attributes of Romero and Iheanacho, I'd say play Ihe as Bergkamp, and Rom as Henry - and it would be the almost perfect replica. Now, you've got it a bit mixed up, but there's not much you can do.

On Wingers - apart from the rather mediocre personality traits, I think both Pereira and Thauvin lack the finishing, teamwork and workrate of Pires and Ljungberg. The Swede was probably the more industrious of the two with better defensive attributes and off the ball movement, while Pires was more of an on the ball runner and was better technically, with superior passing, vision and decisions(which by the way you should also take into account when training PPMs to your youngsters. I'd say no player in the invincibles squad had less than 13 on Decisions).

Those are my two cents... Eagerly waiting on the next update...

[timbo1988]

Hi Cleon,

A great thread! I have attempted to do the same with the current Arsenal squad which is certainly an easier task than with Sheffield Utd!

I couple of things that you have made reference to struggling with is the striker movements!

I have come with something which I believe perfectly replicates the way Henry operated!

If you shift HEnry to a left forward (I.e. In the way you would if you are playing a front 3 and then Bergkamp to a central striker and obviously leave the right striker as blank) this makes him pull into the left channel a lot more like Henry did!

I also set him up as a CF attack rather than support as he threatened in behind a lot more!

I have screenshots of this working to show it as Henry played so will upload these when I next get chance!

[allyc31]

Hi Cleon,

If you shift HEnry to a left forward (I.e. In the way you would if you are playing a front 3 and then Bergkamp to a central striker and obviously leave the right striker as blank) this makes him pull into the left channel a lot more like Henry did!

Him that's a good idea.

My man marking the oppo left back didn't work as planned as he didn't drift out wide so much as stay out wide...which is what you'd expect.

Had some success with the Bergkamp as a DFD but he wasn't anywhere near as creative enough so changed back to a DLP - S but gave him the Dribble Less PPI in an effort to try and get him to be more of a creator.

Also, haven't seen any movement on the right hand side yet for the WMA so will look at that when i'm happy with everything else.

As i'm typing this i'm just wondering something. I've signed two new strikers as my front two, only one played in the PL before and i don't think either of them speak English so i wonder how much that is effecting my Bergkamp?

[chroniclesofal]

And a quick question for you. Are you considering player personalities and mental attributes, when choosing players for the long term, cause I believe that was also a big part of what the Invincibles squad was. I would not consider a player with less than 15 determination, unless I have a senior squad member that can change this through mentoring.

This is one of the reasons why this team is so hard to replicate. They were quite unique, and some of them were playing towards the end of their careers, which was partly why it was so difficult for Arsenal to keep them all together and to continue to dominate. Because they were so experienced, their mental attributes would have been amazing, and then you have to take into account the cohesion and unity they'd developed over a period of three-five years under Wenger.

[allyc31]

So, I still wasn't seeing the movement from Henry that i *think* he should be making.

So, i went back to reading the articles again, went and watched a lot of goals from that season and decided to make some changes.

What i did was move Henry out to the left flank and set him as an Inside Forward Attack with the PPI's Stay Wide, Roaming and Cut inside. I also move Bergkamp into the middle of the pitch and gave him the Roaming and Move Into Channels PPI (as well as Dribble Less).

Finally, I pushed the Defensive line up and focused the passing down the left flank.

It looks ridiculous on 'paper'.

But, so far so good. Henry is getting on the ball a lot more and really driving at defenders which is nice. Piries is also moving more centrally into the space created by Henry (which, iirc as well as reading and watching, seems right?)

Things i've noticed though

Veira isn't running with the ball enough and instead spraying balls left and right. This is ok sometimes but others there is a lot of space for hm to drive into which he never seems to take

Gilberto seems to always be just slightly far away from their CM, allowing for too much space. Might experiment with a notch up in the Closing Down setting.

Sorry for hijacking your thread Cleon. Just wanted to post what i had tried.

Cheers

Ally

[Paolo di Canio]

I'm very curious to see how you're going to reduce the number of goals from crosses, it is going to be very tough on this match engine.

[jackane24]

Cleon, why have you gone for Romero, a player who isn't consistent nor good in important matches?