Is the tactics system now too complicated?

[wpmk]

Love the more visual approach towards tactics this year but there is a LOT of improvement needed in terms of UX. I think OP is saying previous versions were simpler because it was easier to digest, this year there is so much visually going on that it's difficult for a new or returning user to grasp.

The whole team vs player instructions thing is way too confusing for somebody new to pick. I've seen it explained very well on here multiple times but always within 3 very dense paragraphs. If that's what it takes to explain to a new user how tactics work then this solution isn't quite adequate yet.

Overall, a good step in the right direction though.

[Deisler26]

It's EXACTLY the same tactic sbut the instructions use images instead of words.

I'm baffled anyone can be confused by say seeing a visual representation of where their D line will be vs choosing "push higher up". Now when you select "psuh higher up" you see where your D line will be.

The same with choosing a mentality, with the new instructions screen when you change mentality the instructions screen changes , so you can see *how* going attacking will change you passing and d line etc.

But if you understood 15 then it should be easier to understand 16, because all that has changed is the user is given a more visual cue to what's going on

I'm not a visual person. It confuses me.

[WizbaII]

The tactics system would be complicated for a new user, which I think is normal. They only have to go through that experience one time.

If you've played any FM in the last 5 years, then FM 16 should be easy to understand by comparison. It boggles my mind how someone who has played a recent FM would say that FM 16 is incomprehensible. If that's what you think, how did you ever manage to find your way around the previous ones?

I have to agree with thejay, though, that there should be more freedom, like the example he listed with getting a defender to do what you want him to do. After watching Everton play today and watching Stones do what thejay was talking about, I do wish it was easier to make this happen. For this year, I'm content to give SI props for the new team instructions screen because it incorporates the shouts into the tactics screen for this first time. No longer do I have to guess what the difference is between "Exploit the flanks" and "Clear ball to the flanks" even though I've been a football fan for years. The difference between the two is obvious to people who have heard these terms before, but confusing to people who only heard these terms for the first time while playing FM. But now with this tactics screen, that sort of confusion is gone because it's clearly shown to you now visually what the difference is. Now I can clearly see how shouts affects my tactics, which makes me more likely to use them. I don't see them as this "thing on the side" that might screw up parts of my tactic.

I don't understand why people want a mode where they can try a tactic without fear of a bad result. It's called setting up a friendly...

I often see people complaining about the role descriptions. It's true they are not perfect, but I think they are good enough. Every time someone complains about this, I'm thinking, do you actually watch the match? If you're not watching the match to see the difference between DLFs and DLFa, why are you even playing FM? I know that sounds harsh, but I honestly don't get it.

One last thing. I learned a lot about football by playing FM which is a huge reason why I am so impressed with what SI has managed to create. You should never tell people that they need to have basic football knowledge in order to play FM. I bet SI would say, why can't it be the other way around? Football is more about, this person's ideas worked better, not necessarily that he had more football knowledge. Ask Mourinho. Actually, don't ask him. He will never admit being inferior to anyone.

[RBKalle]

I often see people complaining about the role descriptions. It's true they are not perfect, but I think they are good enough. Every time someone complains about this, I'm thinking, do you actually watch the match? If you're not watching the match to see the difference between DLFs and DLFa, why are you even playing FM? I know that sounds harsh, but I honestly don't get it.

Couldn't disagree more...

For starters, the roles/duties names can be confusing and the short description SI provided doesn't shed much light on it because what you get in the ME is so often NOT what you'd expect, based on real life experience, personal interpretation and past FM experience.

While on paper, more roles are a great idea, in execution they've created, IMO, a surplus of options that, in turns, generate confusion, along with false expectations and misunderstandings.

I've seen my Target Man (both S and A) playing wide, instead of being where a TM is supposed to be. I've had AMC (S) with more goals than assists, despite having a role and a position that suggested him being the one to place the final pass...

On a more general note, too many times I've sit through matches where roles and instructions felt pointless... Despite an All Out Attack set of shouts, players kept on passing the ball around with no sense of urgency, while the clear message was "hoof the damn ball into the box and see what happens".

And the list could go on...

I'm not saying it's SI's fault, but I maintain there must be a point where enough is enough... In some occasions, less IS indeed more. Nothing wrong with trimming down on the roles and duties, allowing more freedom with Instructions.

Then if some fool wants to instruct his only central CM to dribble a lot, run forward and look for risky pass, he'll pay the price with a truckload of lost possession and cheap goals.

One last thing. I learned a lot about football by playing FM which is a huge reason why I am so impressed with what SI has managed to create. You should never tell people that they need to have basic football knowledge in order to play FM. I bet SI would say, why can't it be the other way around? Football is more about, this person's ideas worked better, not necessarily that he had more football knowledge. Ask Mourinho. Actually, don't ask him. He will never admit being inferior to anyone.

As said above, having "too much" knowledge or familiarity with football lingo is actually a disadvantage.

My idea of a Trequartista may not be what SI meant and what the ME will produce... And, speaking of the ME, the key for having a successful FM career is learning to "play" the ME, not to come up with a realistic reproduction of a real-life tactic.

[WizbaII]

I do think the descriptions are good, but I agree that the roles are sometimes executed poorly and I also agree that there should be more freedom to change instructions; regardless, you still have to be willing to watch the match. I also think team instructions and the player's own tendencies will affect how much they follow tactical instructions, again another reason to watch the match. Despite being a sort of specialist position, I would imagine that a targetman playing in an expressive team should not behave identical to a targetman in a rigid team, for example. It's also supposed to be a team game, so in my eyes focusing too much on the player's instructions instead of how the team works together is not a guarantee of success. So, for all these reasons, I think you cannot just read the role descriptions and except every match to play exactly to what you read.

Finally, you're right, people have to react to what they see the ME doing rather than real football, but the ME is supposed to come closer and closer to actual football. It also depends how you approach the game. There are those who try to replicate real life tactics and then there are those that try to exploit ME weaknesses. Depending on your approach, you can learn more football or less.

[Shakes]

I found the old screen simpler to read at a glance with just the text. It was certainly much easier to see where you'd changed a default, the new one doesn't give a clear indication of where the default is and where you've clicked something up or down a notch. Highlighting the default notch on the bars would go a long way to improving the current setup.

As for the simulation debate, I don't think the game has the feedback loop required to feel like a simulation. In real life players are living talking thinking human beings and you can ask them why they did things. When a player fails to make a pass and takes a stupid shot in FM all you can do is yell at the screen. In real life you can go over the incident with the player, who might tell you they didn't see their team mate, they might say they thought they had the better shot, they might say they thought the pass was too risky, they might say they thought their instructions were to shoot in that situation. All of which gives the manager feedback when he can then use to give the player further instruction in how to act in future situations. FM just doesn't have that, and until it does it's always going to feel like you're playing a set game against a static (between patches) ME rather than coaching a dynamic team of players.

[WizbaII]

Yes, FM cannot be a 1 to 1 comparison of real life. We don't even have the computers yet to make that goal realistic. However, even real life managers don't get the kind of information you mentioned until half-time or after the match is over. In real life, all you can do is yell at the player, too...at least while the match is still on. I watch managers in real life, all the time, yelling because their player made some stupid move that I'm sure was not practiced on the training ground and they have no idea why their player would do such a thing. Real life managers also watch hundreds or thousands of hours of video, because the things they want to know about are not just things you can figure out over a short period of time. Same with FM. FM has a feedback loop, but it's not as complex, so maybe you don't need as much time to do it. But it's there.

Not only that, but my managing style is to change tactics based on what I see, not what players tell me. Actions speak louder than words.

[Shakes]

Of course I meant between matches, not running onto the pitch at the 25 minute mark to interview your player.

Anyway probably a moot point because I don't think most people actually want a simulation, they want a game that can be beaten. In a simulation the same teams with all the money would win everything over and over like they do in real life. What's the point? Real life already simulates real life pretty well.

[WizbaII]

Again, depends on the player. I have never won the Premier League with Everton when playing without cheating. Then again, I could just be a horrible manager. A lot of it also comes down to the quality of the AI, which is why people insist year after year that it be improved. A lot of people want it to be more like real life. Of course, I'm personally finding it hard enough already.

[thejay]

As said above, having "too much" knowledge or familiarity with football lingo is actually a disadvantage.

My idea of a Trequartista may not be what SI meant and what the ME will produce... And, speaking of the ME, the key for having a successful FM career is learning to "play" the ME, not to come up with a realistic reproduction of a real-life tactic.

Its easier just to watch the game and try out different role combinations and instructions until you get the behaviour you want instead of thinking too much about the roles.

[jcafcwbb]

One of the most puzzling things is the contradictions in the game.

For instance you are coming up against a 4-2-3-1 - the scouting notes said they are most vulnerable to 4-4-2. You play that and your assistant moans you are being out-numbered in midfield regardless of if you are winning, drawing, losing, dominating the game or being second best.

Also in timed constrained times as I have I do not have the time to watch the whole game. Watching in consolidated you can get highlight after highlight with you defending. You change one shout and then you are attacking. Maybe slightly longer highlights could help as they don't exactly explained why your tactic isn't working. I need them to start before they have a throw in your half.

[HUNT3R]

You play that and your assistant moans you are being out-numbered in midfield regardless of if you are winning, drawing, losing, dominating the game or being second best.

It's a fact though, you ARE outnumbered in midfield. He's not wrong. You have 2 and they have 3.

[jcafcwbb]

It's a fact though, you ARE outnumbered in midfield. He's not wrong. You have 2 and they have 3.

But if you are winning 2-0 and playing well it doesn't matter. It may not be the reason you are losing either. Assistant shouts should be more pertinent. I can understand if they were tied to the AI ability but it seems to too scripted.

[HUNT3R]

But if you are winning 2-0 and playing well it doesn't matter. It may not be the reason you are losing either. Assistant shouts should be more pertinent. I can understand if they were tied to the AI ability but it seems to too scripted.

That's up to you as manager to decide. He's giving you advice, you can take it or leave it. At 2-0, I'd leave it.

[RadoN2k12]

Even with the description , why is it not possible to assign player instructions freely?

If the role you choose doesn't provide the player instructions you need, then it's probably not the role you want to use.

[Artin]

I like it.

The key is not to have like a dozen team instructions coupled with half a dozen player instructions. Keep it simple (like around 3) and it works magic.

[TQ13PS]

I really like the look of the tactics screen this year it's more simplistic but still very thorough. I'm only in preseason but hopefully I have chosen a tactic that works for me and my players. The coloured wheels help really well telling me which particular role suits the player.

[tieio]

I have always said that the game lacks the ability to show you what is happening with your choices unless you watch every second of your match. We need a practice mode that shows us what is happening as well as textual explanation while it is happening.

Just to use some examples, I will refer to this one thread: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/439739-Dont-think-my-tactic-is-working-where-am-i-going-wrong-here!!!

Just a few highlights:

Clear Ball To Flanks is a team instruction for a defensive/counter mentality where you are sitting back. It's not really compatiple with your current strategy.

Where does it say this? I bet this would have been nice for this guy to know ahead of time, that clearing the ball to the flanks is more or less for defensive/counter and not that good with an attacking style.

Playing attacking your team will already be wide, you have selected to play even wider, which might give you some problems.

I would also propose to slightly reduce closing down and maybe remove "clear ball to flanks" as this shout often wastes possession.

Another example of something that is not necessarily explained to you at the time you choose it. Did everyone know that you already play wide when attacking? The game sure doesn't tell you this.

I agree with Deisler26, not everyone is a visual person/learner. I know for a fact that just watching the game is not enough for some people, they need verbal/textual explanation. 1/3 people are NOT visual learners.

themightyyak also makes a great point, I too learned tactics by coming to these forums and reading for hours upon hours, this should not be a necessity!

[themadsheep2001]

The game actually does tell you that you are playing wide when picking attacking. That's right under width when you choose it, and it moves as you change mentality

Clear Ball To Flanks is a team instruction for a defensive/counter mentality where you are sitting back. It's not really compatiple with your current strategy.

Again, not strictly true. Can use it in any mentality, providing it's used for the right reasons.

[WizbaII]

I don't think it's valid to say you can't understand the tactics because you are not a visual learner. Sports itself is visual. There's no reason you shouldn't have the ability to...make a change in the tactics screen, see visually (with the green and red colors) the effect it's going to have, and then understand what is different now so you can program the tactic you want.

But no matter how clear or unclear the tactics screen is, you still need to watch the match. Otherwise...why...are...you...playing...FM...