FM15 - The community formation experiment

[Fosse]

Am I too late?

[Jambo98]

Fosse - 4231 DM Narrow

and to answer other question, yes you can sell or loan out or terminate existing loans.

[thatlastbiliousbead]

Absolutely loving this - especially all of the different personnel we are filling our first team with! I have no experience of 4-3-2-1 DM Narrow so...

After an initial assessment, I've inverted the default roles to accommodate a few Preferred Foot problems I encountered when picking my first eleven.

To begin the tinker I've only made three minor changes:

- swapped the two Automatic duties to Support (left Full Back and left Central Midfielder)

- given the right Full Back an Attack duty to offset the Central Midfielder with a Defend duty

This should balance the side as both of the right Full Backs have the preferred move 'Gets Forward Whenever Possible' but the left Full Backs do not.

Oh and I too had Musacchio ask if he could do one so I made an example of him - stripped him of his squad number, league registration, and training camp inclusion before packing him off to Arsenal on loan. Hopefully a year on the bench will clear his head! Got to stamp my authority early...

[alinp]

So, 10 league games in and things seem to be going pretty well.

Most used XI

Tactic still as per post #80 except have changed WB's to normal WB's from CWB's.

[alinp]

Oh and I too had Musacchio ask if he could do one so I made an example of him - stripped him of his squad number, league registration, and training camp inclusion before packing him off to Arsenal on loan. Hopefully a year on the bench will clear his head!

Musacchio will be fine if you hold your nerve - playing very nicely for me now he's given up on trying to force a transfer.

[legskeattch]

I would mind a go please

[mustardpower]

I also want to play!

[Fosse]

Not too bad, I was actually hoping for something more extravagant

[Jambo98]

legskeattch - 4411 2 DM

mustardpower - 3412

I really, really need to get my own attempt going, and set out some of how i can make it work.

[olieogden]

Letting you all know I managed to get 25m for mussachio, replaced with balanta.

Interesting to see the possibilities with the squad, envy anyone who are able to use the Gio, Vietto and Uche trio near eachother!

[felley]

Count me in please, Jambo!

[Jambo98]

felley - 424 wide

[Jambo98]

Ok, so i have started to properly have my "go" :-) I started before but wasnt giving it my full attention. So i started afresh and focused properly.

First up, my transfer business:

Out

Denis Cheryshev - Loan terminated

In

Pedro Obiang - £5million from Sampdoria

Henrique - £750K from Cruziero

Mati Fernandez - Loan from Fiorentina

The tactic:

I have gone with a bit of an unusual approach so far. I wanted to go with Libero to provide an extra body in midfield at times. Out wide, i am not sure between WB and CWB. I know its been discussed a lot lately on here, but i need to see it for myself before i decide which to go for.

The DLP is support to move infront of the Libero.

Ahead of this, is where it gets a bit interesting. I have gone with 2 attack duties in midfield, and 2 support upfront. I have used TI "Push higher up" - Combined with 2 support duties up top, it gives me a very compact team overall. I want the 2 midfielders to go forward and leave our back "4" (2 x CB, Libero and DLP) to be the covering players. The attacking wingbacks i hope will vary my attack options.

Striker roles i might change to suit, and play around a little

Lets see how it goes...

[thatlastbiliousbead]

4-3-2-1 DM Narrow needed three essential Shape modifiers inside 25 minutes:

- Drop Deeper (very vulnerable to balls over the top from out wide)

- Play Wider (unsurprisingly got bunched up in attack and defence)

- Roam From Positions (roles were a little too static to begin with)

Also, with a combination of their lack of aerial presence, Preferred Moves, and Preferred Feet, putting J. dos Santos and G. dos Santos on left and right set pieces respectively is looking very promising indeed!

Musacchio will be fine if you hold your nerve - playing very nicely for me now he's given up on trying to force a transfer.

Thanks for the info (for the group) but I have the first window disabled and I didn't want this to run and run. Plus Diego Lugano is available!

[herne79]

Update on my 4123 Narrow formation:

In all honesty, I wasn't expecting much. Trying to get players tracking back to help with defensive cover, and spreading wide to relieve AMC overcrowding were the main challenges. I just finished my first season, and here are the results:

4th in the league, losing finalist in the Spanish Cup and knocked out in the first knockout round of the UEFA Cup by OL. Not a bad season at all !

I would have liked more progression in Europe, but drawing OL was always going to be tough. We'd finished 2nd in our Group so that was where the damage had been done.

Overall I'm very pleased, especially seeing as we were 7th at Christmas and had a major blip in April which saw us drop as low as 8th at one point - real squeaky bum time . One or two minor tactical tweaks and a very good team meeting saw us through.

In most games I tended to set individual man marking instructions for the STCL/R on the opposition fullbacks, and for the AMCL/R players on the opposition MCL/R. I think this definitely helped get the formation to spread and drop deeper than it otherwise would have done.

Thanks for the challenge Jambo .

[skinnybirds]

I'd love to have a go at this. Hope I can get something I haven't used before.

[Jambo98]

skinnybirds - 424 DM Wide

[NoChance]

Update on my 4123 Narrow formation:

...

4th in the league, losing finalist in the Spanish Cup and knocked out in the first knockout round of the UEFA Cup by OL. Not a bad season at all !

Blimey, you got through that quickly. I'm 6 games into the league season, but would love to pick your brains about the 4-1-2-3. On the face of it, my 3-4-3 diamond wide has similar issues (lack of wide players in advanced positions, gap between defence and midfield, many forward players getting in each others way). Do you mind if I ask you a few questions? Did you go with a direct style or something more possession based? Similarly, what sort of fluidity did you use? I hadn't considered defensive forwards, how well did they work out for you? Like yourself, I've ended up with just a single attacking role: I feel a bit more confident about that after seeing your results.

I'll also give a quick summary of where I am so far. I've gone through a lot of ideas in the pre-season friendlies, but I've kind of settled on two variations. Both use the same shape and player roles, but differ in mentality and TIs. The more attacking variant is a control mentality, with just work ball into box. The defensive variant is counter, with work ball into box, play narrow, higher tempo & pass into space. Both are structured, and the player roles are as follows:

The defensive wingers are crucial: every other role just doesn't provide enough cover on the flanks. Similarly, the DLP gets caught out of position far too often as a roaming playmaker, regista, or a DLP S.

Transfer wise, I realised I needed to strengthen up front: promoting Moreno from the B squad still meant just 4 forwards in the squad, so no cover for injuries/suspensions or just resting players. Like almost everyone else, I sold Musacchio to raise money. Again, I followed the herd to sign Balanta to replace him. Up front, I used the rest of the cash to bring in Lacazette, and loan in Harry Kane. I really wanted a target man plan B, but couldn't find a better one than Kane before the window closed. Kane is a decent bet as TM, but I was hoping for the finished article rather than potential.

In general, I'm happy with how the team are doing, but I'm really struggling against the 4-5-1 formation (the usual one with a DM and AML/AMR):

Admittedly, the Barca one is no surprise, but Sporting Kansas aren't a strong team. We're literally getting crucified: the wide DCs aren't getting out wide to stop crosses coming in, but aren't staying central enough to fight for the resulting ball, while the DWs are simply getting outmanned once an opposing full back comes forward. I'm going to give Herne79s man marking idea a try next time I face a 4-5-1 though. In addition to the crosses problem, the 4-5-1 seems ideally suited to both nullify our creative players and to exploit the gap between our defence and midfield.

The positives are that, with the number of skillful and creative players up front in the team, it seems all but impossible to come up with something that doesn't create at least some good chances. The interplay amongst the front three is fun to watch.

[Fosse]

How do you cancel a loan? Cheryshev, I'm looking at you.

[Lippen]

How do you cancel a loan? Cheryshev, I'm looking at you.

I think it's under Transfer at his profile page

[herne79]

Blimey, you got through that quickly. I'm 6 games into the league season, but would love to pick your brains about the 4-1-2-3. On the face of it, my 3-4-3 diamond wide has similar issues (lack of wide players in advanced positions, gap between defence and midfield, many forward players getting in each others way). Do you mind if I ask you a few questions? Did you go with a direct style or something more possession based? Similarly, what sort of fluidity did you use? I hadn't considered defensive forwards, how well did they work out for you? Like yourself, I've ended up with just a single attacking role: I feel a bit more confident about that after seeing your results.

Have a look at my posts no. 38 & 61, my base tactics are posted there . I did tweak them from time to time, but nothing wildly different. I also gave several players a PI of Shoot Less Often - I don't want them blasting away at goal when there are so many passing options available. I also retrained several players - so for example a hard working DM/MC became a hard working AMC.

How do you cancel a loan? Cheryshev, I'm looking at you.

You need to wait until after the transfer window opens to cancel a loan. Right click his name > Transfer > Cancel Loan. However, I think it isn't always possible to cancel a loan, especially if there is a monthly fee involved. I kept Cheryshev so can't say for certain.

[NoChance]

Have a look at my posts no. 38 & 61, my base tactics are posted there .

Thank you - I had managed to miss them, so apologies. There's a lot of posts in this thread in a short space of time, so I confess I've missed a few. I'm certainly going to steal your idea for the high defensive line too: it may fail horribly with three at the back, but it's got to be worth a try.

[Jambo98]

I have found the high line is working ok with 3 at the back, even with a sweeper enforced!

Then again, i must confess that i have not managed to make a single tactic/system work in Fm15 without the use of a higher line and higher press. Anytime i try to stand off and defend deep i just fail, no matter which team or formation .

So far things are going ok with my formation. The libero is not coming out into midfield enough, but i knew this would be a problem as it only seems to work with really specific PPMs. I am coping ok without that movement, the wingbacks are doing well and i have modified my frontline to be a F9 and Poacher which is working well in most games.

I still find that sometiems can just ruthlessly expose 3 at the back, no matter how you try to adjust, and the odd game where that has happened is frustrating me a lot. We sit 6th after 14 games, but there is little between the teams beyond the big 2. We went out of europe despite picking up 9pts in the group - I heavily rotated for every Europa game which was maybe a mistake.

I might try moving the Libero to attack duty just to get him to do what the support duty descriptor says he will - move into midfield.

[Torskus77]

How did you manage to make those transfers Jambo98, without selling anyone ? I only have 1.69M Transfer funds and just under 18k wages free + any loan i cancel I'd assume. Did you just bang most of it on monthly installments ? I haven't played a game yet, but I have been spending time trying to work out my tactic. Time to give it a run out now in preseason. Never ever used 3 or 5 at the back, so should be fun.

[Jambo98]

I terminated the loan of Cheryshev to free up some wages, the first one is a loan so costs little, Henrique i funded from the intitial transfer budget (i think i had closer to £2mill - i picked a more aggressive board expectation). I then asked for more transfer funds later in the window but was denied, however when i asked for more wage budget they accepted. I then just adjusted wages into transfer money. Obiang maxed out what i could spend.

Just checked back on clauses and part of Henrique is installments, but i think it was 50% now, 50% in installments given he was a cheap signing.

[ntw001]

I have to admit I'm struggling with my 5-4-1 Diamond WB formation. Admitedly I have been unlucky with injuries (Uche, J Dos Santos and Ruiz are all out for about 2 months), but even so I am struggling to score goals from open play. I've only played a handful of league games, which includes the home games vs. Barca and Real, but even so I'm disappointed with the amount of goalmouth action I'm getting.

I know what I *want* to do, but I'm finding it tricky to translate that into the right players in the right roles.

The formation looks basically like this

------ST

------AM

---MC---MC

WB--DM--WB

--DC-DC-DC

------GK

I know I have to get the ST and AM to work as a pair, but the question is; what type of pairing and who in which position? None of the current strikers are suited to a CF or TM. I've tried an F9/DLF(s) (Vietto) and SS(a) (Dos Santos) combo with no real effect. Vietto is most suited to an AF / Poacher role. So I'm wondering whether I should drop him into the SS(a) position and have him burst from deep; he has good pace and otb...And put Dos Santos in the ST position as a DLF... Also wondering whether 2 attacking duties up top would work. SS or T working with an AF...

None of the attack minded players are going to work well with high crosses floated into the box (no height, jumping or strength), so this also leaves me in a dilemma as to what to do with my wing backs. I've tried different roles (WB, CWB) with different duties (A and S) but my highlights only show them cutting back inside and passing to the midfield, rather than going past their man and putting a cross in; despite asking them to hit early crosses and cross more. Maybe I need to look into the stats in a little more detail to figure out if they are trying crosses, but the highlights just aren't showing it.

I know I need creativity and forward support from my midfield, so I've been going with one with attack duty (either CM(a) or AP(a)) and one with support duty (AP(s) or DLP(s)). But I'm not seeing a lot of creativity. Just a lot of passing around. I'm loath to be even more specific and PI them to try more risky passes or add creativity, since these are creative roles already. I recognise the potential for congestion in the AMC strata and thats what I'm seeing, but not sure how to solve it. Given that, do I need to make my midfield 3 operate wider? I've tried to give them 'play wider' and 'roam from position' PIs, but to seemingly no effect.

I seem to be relatively solid at the back. A CD(d), BPD(d), CD(d) and a DM(s) provide good cover. With CWB(s) I get plenty of protection on the wings and the back 3 + DM give me plenty of protection from crosses and through the middle. I'm conscious that perhaps I'm *too* defensive and perhaps I should swap the CD and BPD roles and have the two BPDs out wide... Maybe my CD(d)s are just humping the ball upfield rather than trying to play on the ground (despite team instructions to the contrary)

I could have two very distinct team strategies. Hold onto the ball and play a patient game building up slowly from the back. But surely this would have to be primarily through the middle since as I've just said, my goal scorers can't deal with crosses particularly well? Alternatively I could try to counter swiftly from the back with short precise passing through the midfield. But then this makes my wing backs only really effective as a defensive force. See above about making my midfield 3 operate wider...

I feel like I'm close to making this work and perhaps its just a small tweak needed for it all to fall into place. (Oh and Flexible with Standard or Control is what I'm playing with)

Sigh. Feedback welcome.

[Jambo98]

I would defo look at CWB(a) in the wide areas. You have enough cover with the DM in place to get those guys really high and provide good last third options. Also Mario and Costa have the PPMs to suit it. It might also solve the issue of pointless midfield passing, as these guys provide a real outlet.

In terms of up top, one of the things i fell into the trap of doing early was thinking of Dos Santos as a deeper type player. Probably partly my memories of him at Spurs and for Mexico years ago, and also his positional ability at AMC. However when you take a look a bit closer, his PPMs actually probably suit a "leading the line" type role. Add in his speed and off the ball, and something like an AF or even a poacher can work for him. Perhaps even CF(a)?

Also with crosses, it makes sense to go for low crosses perhaps, in the absence of any threat in the air?

[ntw001]

Also Mario and Costa have the PPMs to suit it.

oh yeah - forgot to mention that mario has also been out since the middle of pre-season with an injury - he's just making it back now, so I've had to play the russian dude...

In terms of up top, one of the things i fell into the trap of doing early was thinking of Dos Santos as a deeper type player. Probably partly my memories of him at Spurs and for Mexico years ago, and also his positional ability at AMC. However when you take a look a bit closer, his PPMs actually probably suit a "leading the line" type role. Add in his speed and off the ball, and something like an AF or even a poacher can work for him. Perhaps even CF(a)?

This is what I'm thinking overnight, but haven't tried it yet. Will try tonight.

Also with crosses, it makes sense to go for low crosses perhaps, in the absence of any threat in the air?

Have tried, but didn't seem to make much difference. Perhaps I just need to combine this with the other small tweaks above.

[Jambo98]

CWBs will reduce the crossing i find, which might help. Rukavina is not a bad replacement for Mario. I have rotated all 4 wingbacks a bit, and even played Cani there a few times against smaller teams.

[thatlastbiliousbead]

I know I need creativity and forward support from my midfield, so I've been going with one with attack duty (either CM(a) or AP(a)) and one with support duty (AP(s) or DLP(s)). But I'm not seeing a lot of creativity. Just a lot of passing around. I'm loath to be even more specific and PI them to try more risky passes or add creativity, since these are creative roles already. I recognise the potential for congestion in the AMC strata and thats what I'm seeing, but not sure how to solve it. Given that, do I need to make my midfield 3 operate wider? I've tried to give them 'play wider' and 'roam from position' PIs, but to seemingly no effect.

I have similar problems with a similar formation (4-3-2-1 DM Narrow) and with a bit of tweaking I found Play Wider, Push Higher Up, and Roam from Positions combats the congestion somewhat. I thought I had a bit of a revelation with Exploit the Right Flank owing to my Full Back on an Attack duty but then I had to make this Exploit Both Flanks as I kept getting countered on my left so he too had to be an Attack duty to close the space to their wingers. This Arteta-esque out-ball to the wings just delayed play more often than not as the ball came back inside to the AM strata. I think the key to both of our formations is foreiting the striker's role as it is essentially redundant. I'm thinking possibly a Defensive Forward...

[ntw001]

Rukavina is not a bad replacement for Mario. I have rotated all 4 wingbacks a bit, and even played Cani there a few times against smaller teams.

Indeed he is. He's won PoM a few times as a CWB(a). And yes Jokic is also a good replacement for Costa. Not tried Cani there - only ever tried him as AM or ST (once). With my injury situation I had to play him up top once and I think he actually scored...

[ntw001]

I'm thinking possibly a Defensive Forward...

Who do you have who can do this effectively though? Vietto certainly isn't suited to that role, possibly Uche is (but like I said - he's currently injured in my save). Needs to be some kind of selfless, hardworking, teamplayer, workhorse striker. Dos Santos doesn't strike me as that kind of player either. Might need to draft in someone else to play that role for you.

The other thing that strikes me whilst writing this is that we need a couple of different tactics for when different players are tired / injured as they all don't suit the same role... this is what makes it even more interesting

[thatlastbiliousbead]

Who do you have who can do this effectively though? Vietto certainly isn't suited to that role, possibly Uche is (but like I said - he's currently injured in my save). Needs to be some kind of selfless, hardworking, teamplayer, workhorse striker. Dos Santos doesn't strike me as that kind of player either. Might need to draft in someone else to play that role for you.

The other thing that strikes me whilst writing this is that we need a couple of different tactics for when different players are tired / injured as they all don't suit the same role... this is what makes it even more interesting

I promoted Moreno who looks like he could fit the bill iirc. Has anyone got anything out of Uche?

[Torskus77]

I terminated the loan of Cheryshev to free up some wages, the first one is a loan so costs little, Henrique i funded from the intitial transfer budget (i think i had closer to £2mill - i picked a more aggressive board expectation). I then asked for more transfer funds later in the window but was denied, however when i asked for more wage budget they accepted. I then just adjusted wages into transfer money. Obiang maxed out what i could spend.

Just checked back on clauses and part of Henrique is installments, but i think it was 50% now, 50% in installments given he was a cheap signing.

Cheers. I need to get more Harry Redknapp lol

[felley]

Got a couple of days off so I was going to get stuck in with my 424 Wide

Just wondering... Would FMC be ok for this experiment, or is it a strictly full-fat format?

[felley]

So I started up the game and this is where I sit after my initial assessment (with a short explanation)

- Control is the mentality, to squeeze us up the pitch more and take advantage of the four up front as well as bringing the defence closer to the rest of the players.

- Fluid team shape to take advantage of the great mental attributes of a lot of the players, as well as encouraging the flanks to connect better (forward players coming back, back players coming forward) due to the large gap.

- The first absolute rule is that I definitely need a sitter/runner combo in midfield as I could quite easily get overrun here. I will be retraining Bruno to CM as he has some fantastic attributes that I can't afford to see wasted. Not 100% sure on the runner as i'm not sure J. dos Santos has top level attributes for any of CM(S), BBM or RPM roles. For now i've gone with an RPM as he is pretty good technically (i'm not too concerned about the playmaker roles as they should be somewhat diluted by the fluidity).

- The second absolute rule is that I want variation on the flanks. With four players up front, I need them to be attacking from different angles as well as waiting for support from other angles - I can't attack in straight lines (fluidity will also help here too). I've gone with a IF(S) - WB(A) combo on the left and a W(A) - FB(S) combo on the right. Not groundbreaking by any means, but it takes advantage of two of our best players in Cani and G. dos Santos. Additionally, to these ends I have added "Work Ball Into Box". I am wary of this TI slowing down the tempo though, so I will also choose "Higher Tempo" in an effort to keep our attacking play urgent and play to our technical strengths.

I don't have any other absolute rules, but the combo onf DLF(S) and AF(S) seemed like the most logical in a fluid system for the time being, and I don't feel I have the defenders to play anything but standard CD(D)'s.

This could all change with a few acquisitions of course! My target areas are a blockbuster goal machine up front and a more capable supporting midfielder to partner Bruno in midfield.

Will report back later...

[mustardpower]

With a 3-4-1-2 I'm struggling to defend down the wings. I've effectively tried to just let Cheryshev attack down the left and then play Mario is a defensive winger on the right. I've then left a deep lying playmaker - defend on the left of my centre midfielders. I was hoping the deep lying playmaker would do Cheryshev's defensive work and then rely on Cheryshev, Uche, Vietto and dos Santos to score my goals. Dos Santos then got injured for 3 months so I've ended up with Cani in my Trequartista role and I'm struggling to create much without throwing too many players forward.

[felley]

Hey guys, a short update from me just before the season kicks off.

A few changes to talk about...

I changed the RPM to a BWM early on as I wanted a little more bite to the midfield. I am still deciding between a Support or Defend duty, but for now it stays as Support, especially whilst Bruno plays DLP(D) (Due to his "Stays back at all times" PPM). Throughout pre-season I found that the stability of the tactic hinges greatly on the two central players. As long as I can keep their roles clear (One deep sitter, one gut-busting runner) and pick excellent players for the roles, it gives me a chance against many formations that will outnumber us in midfield.

I added the TI "Push Higher Up" because I really felt at times that the team felt too spread out and weren't squeezing the opposition like I had envisaged.

As for acquisitions, I went for Balanta too! It's actually the first time i've used him since FM13 where I picked him up without even knowing about him (I try and avoid these lists of "best players" as I find it spoils the fun of scouting/transfers). He's a no-brainer for Villareal. Mussachio to Spurs for 12m, grabbed Balanta for 5m. Great business. I also bought Scott Brown from Celtic as my gut-busting BWM. His attributes are excellent for this role and for 2.5m, another very fine deal.

That was it for acquisitions, although i'm currently re-training a few players to other positions to act as cover/provide me with more options.

Finally, regarding general play of the tactic, I find it works very well in the final third as we are both creating and taking chances (40+ goals in pre-season). Where I predict I will have problems is in the space between my wide players. I have already seen my wide defenders isolated a few times. I am just hoping that I have the speed and positioning in defence to deal with through balls, as well as deep enough midfielders to chip in with defending. The ideal scenario would be to play the entire game in the oppositions half! But that probably won't be happening against the bigger teams... We'll see, eh?

[thatlastbiliousbead]

Thoughts on 4-3-2-1 DM Narrow... after two games of pre-season I'm quite happy that there's something workable here and maybe even revolutionary (!)

Defensively, I'm being generous when I say it is 'at risk' - it just gifts the opposition all the time in the world to play their game and eventually discover the 'switch' ball, get in behind that opposite flank and have a shot. Play Wider and Push Higher Up gives far greater security in terms of interceptions. This makes attacking rather static but Roam From Positions sorts it out.

Offensively, there is some really nice stuff to be played with what is essentially the main four midfield players overlapping each other. It can be overly intricate and run into cul-de-sacs but the reward is a greater amount of set pieces - as if I was playing Defensive mentality. Retain Possession, Pass Into Space, and Work Ball Into Box really augment the possession stranglehold and is a nice, patient test of the oppositions resolve - the most frequent chance I have is the old crowded penalty area tap-in which is quite satisfying. It could be anyone finishing it off, too.

With regard to player roles, the Attacking Midfielder Attack goes it alone a little too much so should he run out of options the Left Full Back will have to be a Wing Back to give a late overlap. The Attacking Midfielder Attack (AMCL) could really do with a tweak anyway, its no good that he runs into space with the ball I need him there in the first place so I'm toying with a Trequartista or Second Striker. He gets forward right enough but not wide enough, or when he's wide enough not attacking enough. The other cause for concern is the Central Midfielder Defend (MCR) who is largely anonymous. He has cover behind him (DMC) so maybe its time to unleash a Ball-Winning Midfielder or Roaming Playmaker - I need to squeeze dynamic movement out of him somehow.

The striker is a little redundant by the time play reaches him but as an Advanced Forward Attack he gives a headache to defenders who frequently have to choose to engage two of three men.

[felley]

Another update (hope the rest of you haven't lost interest!) on how my save is going. First of all, a snapshot of our form in the first 10 matches:

So the one thing we can guarantee is goals... at either end! I've really struggled to get this high block functioning with the four players in the final third. There's been lots of space down the wings, meaning my wide defenders get isolated - the knock on being gaps opening up elsewhere. The team have really struggled with set pieces as well as with early crosses from out wide... And Barca scored the same goal against me 3 times which was infuriating - a problem i've suffered before on other saves from very advanced throw-ins where your team fail to mark properly and get overloaded in the box. I'm not sure how to combat it, but it was only really Barca that ruthlessly exploited it so it may not be a problem for now.

As for the tactics, I have been searching for some sort of balance and ended up switching a few roles as I discover more about how my players perform.

There have been many changes as you can see, so i'll run through them step-by-step.

- The right side was a problem for us with the original set-up and I think it was a combination of the FB(S) being cautious, the BWM(S) being caught up-field and the W(A) being a long way off leaving a massive hole. I switched the DLP and BWM in midfield and changed to a WB(S) in an attempt to deny the space in this area.

- I switched from Fuid to Structured because I felt the players were roaming too much and the creative freedom was causing the team to lose shape. I wouldn't have been as concerned if we had a strong defensive shape, but with the 4-2-4 Wide you are almost forced to defend from the front.

- In line with these structural changes, I altered the DLF(S) to a F9. This means that he plays more in the hole, giving us a 4-2-3-1 shape in transition. The knock on effect was that I could now afford to make the AMR a full blown IF(A) (G.dos Santos is ideal for this role but I wanted to have him wider originally to make space for the DLF to get into the box). The overall structure started to resemble something with a little more stability at this point as the F9 dropped into the space in front of the DLP(D) giving us a staggered formation in transition.

- On the left side, I chose to switch to an Advanced Playmaker ahead of a WB(S). Knocking back the WB gave us more stability whereas the playmaker gives us a double pivot in transition/attack keeping the passing angles that we require in the final third. I'm still toying with a Support or Attack duty and at the moment it depends who I have playing there. I also have the flexibility to go back to a WB(A) again giving us some width in attack.

- My final problem was attempting to mitigate the high line as the through balls were flying in and the CB's were flying out. I chose to give the RCB a Cover duty as well as making the goalkeeper a SK(D). This has been helping us in these situations so far, with the DLP(D) also tracking better now he has the space to do so.

As for TI's, I removed "Work Ball Into Box" as I felt it was making us too ponderous in attack (despite the many goals scored!) where the Control mentality would suffice. I also added "Low Crosses" due to our lack of height up front (or anywhere for that matter).

Additionally, I added the following PI's:

Both WB's - Cross Less Often (I want them to support the flanks, not pump balls aimlessly to the forwards)

DLP(D) - Dribble Less, More Direct Passes (To emphasize his holding role as well as providing a quick ball forward at times)

BWM(S) - Dribble Less (This guy should be supporting play with his positioning and closing down, he shouldn't be too direct)

F9 - Roam From Position (I always like to give one guy full license to roam, and he seemed like the best bet to give us different routes to goal)

Most of these changes were made in the last 4-5 games and although I have still shipped goals, I feel we are approaching stability now. I need the league form to improve. The Europa league has been a cakewalk so far, with some very favourable draws. I'll keep you all posted.

[Deego619]

Count me in on this, been struggling to get into an interesting save. This may keep me going .

[NDavis95]

Just a little introduction into my tactical experiment. Started last night after planning out my tactic yesterday so thought I would give an update. (Will post some screenshots later. At work currently).

The basic shape I was given is a 4-2-4-0 DM which is the only base strikerless formation on FM.

LW AM AM RW

DM DM

LB CB CB RB

That is how the tactic sets up. My first thoughts were based on what issues would I encounter with this tactic:

• Gap between DM's and AM's
  
• No point man to hold up the ball
  
• Being over ran in space between DM and AM
  

And then what would be key to making this tactic work.

• Movement of front 4
  
• Solidarity with 2 DM's infront the back 4
  
• Getting players in the box
  
• A link between the back 6 and front 4
  

I then thought about how I wanted to play with this tactic. The formation is set out perfect for a high press. The 4 front players can really get at the defence and opposition DM's and the two DM's can push on to the CM's or AM's while still hopefully retaining a strong shape. I want a lot of movement between the front four. With no point man to play off strikerless, requires heavily on the front 4 dragging players out of position to create space. This means I also need players to be attacking the box from deep as well.

This led me to these 5 team instruction:

• Push Higher Up - In an attempt to reduce the gap between front 4 and back 6. Also aids pressing.
  
• Close Down More - I want my players to press the other team high up the pitch.
  
• Work ball into box - This is just to reduce long shots and allow my players to probe the opposition box
  
• Play out of defence - I don't want the ball aimlessly sent up field. A ball to one of the DM's and then forward is how I want to play
  
• Pass into space - The aim is to drag people of out position thus creating space and I want the players to be putting the ball into that space
  
• Roam from position - When in possesion I want the players to find space and create gaps for other players to be able to get in behind.
  

I will be leaving the team on Standard and Flexible as I believe it allows me to be fully customize how the team plays. I may look to go fluid depending on how cohesive the two blocks of players are or if the Push Higher Up is not effective enough.

After looking at all of my assumptions on the tactic and how I wanted to play I at first ended up with this (This was before even putting FM on):

W/A AP/S AM/A IF/S

DM/D RPM/S

FB/S CB CB FB/A

I see 3 key positions in this formation. The RPM, AP/S and AM/A. Before I started how I saw them playing was the RPM receiving the ball from the defence. Giving the ball to the AP/S who has dropped deep to receive it and feeding into the AM/A who will wither score or assist the LW and RW. That is obviously in an ideal world and without seeing the tactic play I don't know how effectively this triangle will play out.

Roaming playmaker: This guy will be the heartbeat of the team. He is the player I am relying on to link to the two blocks of players. I need him to be tireless in defence allowing me to keep a good solid base of 6 players but also to bring the ball forward to link the front 4 and get in and around the box.

Advanced Playmaker - Support: I am relying on the Roaming Playmaker to link defence to attack but the player I am relying on to link attack to defence is the AP/S. I want this player to drop deep into the hole; drag players with him and then receive the ball and exploit the gaps in behind either by moving the ball wide or to the AM/A. This player needs to have good off the ball to find the correct space and also be my most creative player.

Attacking Midfielder - Attack: My goalscorer. This is the player who I want highest up the pitch. I want them to start the pressing and I want them to be finishing attacks. Simple as that. I want him to hold up the ball as well to allow players to get up with play.

I set this up with Villarreal and will update with my findings a bit later. A few tweaks later and I am rather happy with the formation after pre season and 4 competitive games. Thanks for reading. Any feedback is welcomed. Good or bad.

[Jambo98]

Count me in on this, been struggling to get into an interesting save. This may keep me going .

JDeeguain - 4132 Narrrow

A popular formation in previous versions of FM, and a couple of notable advocates of it this year, but it has a lot of possible varieties to it. The roles and duty combinations possible on the middle 3, together with how you use the fullbacks can give you lot of ways to play this Good luck.

Overall, i feel very guilty for my lack of progress on my own attempt! The write ups are really top drawer, i am learning plenty myself reading them and getting ideas, seeing how everyone is using all the tools at their disposal to take set "formations" and make them into workable "shapes".

We seem to be getting close to proving something that Pep often says - Formations are meaningless, its just a list of numbers like a phone number

[Deego619]

JDeeguain - 4132 Narrrow

A popular formation in previous versions of FM, and a couple of notable advocates of it this year, but it has a lot of possible varieties to it. The roles and duty combinations possible on the middle 3, together with how you use the fullbacks can give you lot of ways to play this Good luck.

Overall, i feel very guilty for my lack of progress on my own attempt! The write ups are really top drawer, i am learning plenty myself reading them and getting ideas, seeing how everyone is using all the tools at their disposal to take set "formations" and make them into workable "shapes".

We seem to be getting close to proving something that Pep often says - Formations are meaningless, its just a list of numbers like a phone number

Very interesting formation! I swore by a midfield diamond in FM14 and this doesn't seem that dissimilar. I think there's even a thread doing the rounds about the 4132 narrow and Juventus at the moment, I'll try to stray as far away from the Juventus style as I can for some variety around here .

I might attempt to introduce a direct style for a Spanish side (blasphemy ) but that means I'll have to beef up my front line.

[aRj00]

Too late/too few posts to be considered?

[felley]

Another update for you guys. Coming thick and fast, I know. Really burnt up those two days off with FM

First of all, the form up until the winter break...

As you can see, it's massively improved. 6 wins out of 8 in the league, unbeaten in the Europa League (easy group though) and a 9-0 aggregate stomping of some no-marks in the cup (sorry if you're from Guijuelo!). I think the improvement has a lot to do with the tactic arriving at a stable location through tweaks to the set up and instructions, but I can't discount other factors as well. Bruno and Trigueros have successfully retrained at new positions (2 new positions in the case of Trigueros) leading to improved performances from them, Scott Brown seems to have settled in and looks much more comfortable, and of course good squad rotation has given me a blend of quality and reserves/youth in all three competitions.

The big plus point for me is the versatility of the front line as well as the amount of options I have there. Cani virtually always plays at AML as the playmaker, but Trigueros is a fantastic option here and offers something different with his pace and work rate. Trigueros has also started appearing at AMR as a Winger/Inside Forward in a few games due to him being fairly two-footed. For the most part though, Giovanni dos Santos has started at AMR and is always threatening as he dribbles towards the area and into the space vacated by the False 9. The two striker positions have probably been the most heavily rotated, with Uche seeing plenty of time as both the False 9 and the Advanced Forward. Moreno and Vietto have had plenty of minutes as the Advanced Forward (with Moreno impressing the most). Giovanni dos Santos played a brief spell as the False 9, grabbing a hatful of goals and boosting his confidence. Additionally, Perez has returned from injury and is providing another great option on the right with his speed and tenacity. Moi Gomez and Javi Espinosa complete the options here but neither have really impressed beyond a couple of average performances (still young though).

So this is how the tactic has ended up. I've not tweaked it in a good 10 games now, so we're very settled into the rhythm of it.

The only role changes from last time were down the left side, as the AP(S) and WB(A) finally give us the balance we need in attack and defence.

Apart from that, I only really tweaked the TI's and added some PI's.

- "Higher Tempo" was removed as I felt it was too extreme and we were squandering opportunities to dribble or hold up the play

- "Push Higher Up" was also removed as I felt it was needlessly exposing the defence; the Control strategy and blend of roles suffices in compressing the play into a less dangerous area without being too extreme.

- "Play Narrower" was added in a bid to both channel the runs into the box, as well as tighten up lateral gaps that I was seeing in defence.

- "Be More Expressive" was added to counter-act the loss of creative freedom when adopting a Structured team shape; I still want the players to use their flair in attack, but keeping a shape is very important defensively.

- "Shoot Less Often" was given to the AML/R as they both have a tendency to squander opportunities. I felt targeting the wasteful culprits individually a better option than "Work Ball Into Box" - which i'm a fan of - but it sometimes makes your attackers too risk-averse which isn't the best thing for our current strategy.

That's it for now. I won't spam much more with updates, probably just wait until the end of season now I have a stable tactic.

[Jambo98]

Too late/too few posts to be considered?

Course not, we are low on formations but no such thing as too few posts if you are willing to give it a go

aRj00 - 5212 WB

One of the more unusual shapes i am afraid! I havent got the game open right now but its an interesting shape!

[Mark.]

Apologies team, have fired up a save for my 4141 DM just been a bit flat out, will get some time in this weekend I hope.

It is an interesting proposition. Usually I would know exactly where I want to go, but think I should try think outside the box a little. So rather than trying to get an odd shape to work, I will try to get a regular shape to work oddly

[Mark.]

In an effort to make the most of free time, even without the game handy I will note down some of my ideas that I am toying with.

Without having a good look at personnel I am going to have to base this more on how I want the formation to play out and then have a look to see if the pieces fit.

Usually I would look at a 4-1-4-1 or 4-5-1 or any tactic with a variation of a flat 5 man midfield and try to get wide men combining a mixture of width and attacking thrust, a variety of runners and holders centrally and width from the Wingbacks.

This time round I am planning on something a little different. My aim to get the 4-1-4-1 turning into something of a 2-1-4-3 in attack, but rather than have the wide mids join the forward line I will look to have them come inside to act as the play makers and the central mids to burst forward to join the attack.

As I write this I see a lot of potential for this to be a huge mess, so a lot of testing will be needed. To stop too many players trying to occupy the same area, I may have to compromise to one side being more standard.

So off the top of my head, to begin with:

Standard – Flexible

--------------------GK--------------------

--CWB(a)----CD----CD----CWB(a)--

-----------------DLP(d)------------------

--WP(S)---CM(a)--CM(a)---WP(s)--

--------------------F9---------------------

The two CM(a) will likely be setup as Central Wingers.

So this looks like it may lack variation in attack, especially from the flanks. I also suspect there will be a lack of cover centrally. But I want to start with this and test rather than get too far ahead of myself.

[felley]

--------------------GK--------------------

--CWB(a)----CD----CD----CWB(a)--

-----------------DLP(d)------------------

--WP(S)---CM(a)--CM(a)---WP(s)--

--------------------F9---------------------

Don't want to be that guy that shoots you down straight off the bat, and I know you've already made it clear that you know it will be difficult to pull off... but that formation is madness!

If you get it working, I will be very impressed. At least it's a challenge!