Fm2009 DRM

[Hamenaglar]

I think education and lower prices would help much more in lowering down piracy than any form of protection.

[DaveRH]

*I am not in any way say that piracy is good , what i am saying is that not all people downloading cracked copies are pirates

With a ho ho ho and bottle of rum!

Seriously, "people downloading cracked copies" are pirates (or at least breaking copyright law). They are the targets of DRM and rightly so.

You may think that even a silent minority download games, try them and them purchase the original - but statistically any people like that are insignificant.

Then add to the fact that those same people will think nothing about burning their download onto a CD and giving it to their mates so that they can "try" it too.

DRM is put onto products to protect publishers from exactly this sort of behaviour. If you want to try a game, download a demo. If there isn't a demo available that will probably tell you something.

[Ranbir]

The protection often forces you not to buy the game

Which is what I said!

I can only direct, again, to the Brad Wardell interview and the principles, which are pretty simple. It is just so brilliantly simple; and it works.

http://community.sigames.com/showpost.php?p=1647712&postcount=97

[Hamenaglar]

With a ho ho ho and bottle of rum!

Seriously, "people downloading cracked copies" are pirates (or at least breaking copyright law). They are the targets of DRM and rightly so.

You may think that even a silent minority download games, try them and them purchase the original - but statistically any people like that are insignificant.

Then add to the fact that those same people will think nothing about burning their download onto a CD and giving it to their mates so that they can "try" it too.

DRM is put onto products to protect publishers from exactly this sort of behaviour. If you want to try a game, download a demo. If there isn't a demo available that will probably tell you something.

However most people that do so, do not realise they are stealing. That's why education is needed. But unless prices are lowered it will still be an issue (for instance new games cost about of 20% of what my mother earns a month).

[DaveRH]

However most people that do so, do not realise they are stealing. That's why education is needed. But unless prices are lowered it will still be an issue (for instance new games cost about of 20% of what my mother earns a month).

There's two very different areas of discussion there.

People don't know they're 'stealing'

I completely disagree with this. Surely only the most ignorant person would download a product, then see it for sale in the shops and not think that something was amiss.

What I will say is that I can see that people don't think about it - it doesn't occur to them that what they've done might cost people money. To a degree, I think these are exactly the people that DRM is supposed to foil. Not the hardcore pirates, but the casual ones.

Prices

In terms of the Western markets, I think I'd disagree with you that prices need to be lowered. I've no idea what margins are made on games, but when your average PC games costs the same price as two or three DVDs, or less than a good night on the town then I'd say that it's not an unreasonable price.

At the same time, I think distributers have shot themselves in the foot to a degree with pricing outside the 'developed nations'. A legitimate copy of a game may well cost close to a months wages at RRP in somewhere like Russia and South-East Asia, which obviously is not affordable for the vast majority of people there. You can understand why piracy is so rampant in countries like this. (Apologies for the massive generalisations here, but I hope the point comes across.)

[sanjin84]

I understand they need to protect their work but SI also needs to understand that they will never stop piracy of their games no matter what they do or even slow it down. Its just impossible....your gonna come up with something and somebody will think of a way to by-pass it, it's just the way it works. What they need to concentrate on are the loyal customers who buy the game every year because its a great product. I would never download any FM, Call of Duty, Total War, Company of Heroes, Age of Empires and so on because I'm a loyal fan of the series. I understand what sweat they put into those games and they are worth every penny. Like somebody said "my game experience should always be equal or greater than the game experience of a pirate". These "protections" in the end only end up ruining the game for the legal buyers and pirates are reaping all the benefits. I'm %100 against DRM because if i pay for the game ITS MINE and i don't want to have any restrictions on my product which i legally bought. Especially when you read on-line that pirated version of the game has no "install limit". It just makes you mad.

[Themistofelis]

With a ho ho ho and bottle of rum!

Seriously, "people downloading cracked copies" are pirates (or at least breaking copyright law). They are the targets of DRM and rightly so.

Maybe that's why i am running a legally bought copy of spore with a crack over it

/scull and bones mode on

[Hamenaglar]

There's two very different areas of discussion there.

People don't know they're 'stealing'

I completely disagree with this. Surely only the most ignorant person would download a product, then see it for sale in the shops and not think that something was amiss.

What I will say is that I can see that people don't think about it - it doesn't occur to them that what they've done might cost people money. To a degree, I think these are exactly the people that DRM is supposed to foil. Not the hardcore pirates, but the casual ones.

Prices

In terms of the Western markets, I think I'd disagree with you that prices need to be lowered. I've no idea what margins are made on games, but when your average PC games costs the same price as two or three DVDs, or less than a good night on the town then I'd say that it's not an unreasonable price.

At the same time, I think distributers have shot themselves in the foot to a degree with pricing outside the 'developed nations'. A legitimate copy of a game may well cost close to a months wages at RRP in somewhere like Russia and South-East Asia, which obviously is not affordable for the vast majority of people there. You can understand why piracy is so rampant in countries like this. (Apologies for the massive generalisations here, but I hope the point comes across.)

a) Actually that's why I said education. People don't (especially kids) look at it as stealing because they do not go into the shop and sneak it out of it. Also in Croaita there are actually very few shops with PC game. Looking at the internet I've managed to find only two pc game shops in Zagreb that actually have physical shops, and they don't have all of the games I'd want to play, try... For some games the only way you can get them is by downloading them.

b)Yes, for western markets prices might be okay, but when I've been visiting in ireland I've noticed that prices of everything are double than in croatia, except for pc games (and such products) that cost about the same money (basically exactly what you've said).

Currently I'm looking to buy a certain game, but basically I haven't been able to find it, so I'm left with buying it over the internet through amazon and things like that which I'm unsure about.

[philly_flyer10]

However most people that do so, do not realise they are stealing. That's why education is needed. But unless prices are lowered it will still be an issue (for instance new games cost about of 20% of what my mother earns a month).

I think you need education yourself.

It is not stealing and that is according to the law.

Taking a game out of the shop is stealing and is a criminal case.

copying a game or downloading it is copyright infringement which is a civil case, not criminal so there for it is not stealing. Someones seen one too many "you wouldnt steal a handbag..." propaganda on DVD intos (which of course are ripped from downloaded DVDs so the pirates never see them and only the people that but them are accused of being thieves.)

[Hamenaglar]

I think you need education yourself.

It is not stealing and that is according to the law.

Taking a game out of the shop is stealing and is a criminal case.

copying a game or downloading it is copyright infringement which is a civil case, not criminal so there for it is not stealing. Someones seen one too many "you wouldnt steal a handbag..." propaganda on DVD intos (which of course are ripped from downloaded DVDs so the pirates never see them and only the people that but them are accused of being thieves.)

From legal point it may not be stealing, but from a moral one it is (at least as far as I'm concerned).

[Bodis]

One thing that's been banded about a lot that'd also be a nice touch is a "no cd patch" 2 years after release. I don't know how much SI make from platinum sales of 2 years + games, but chances are they'd lose practicly nothing to piracy, while making it easier for genuine users with old installs who can't find their disks.

SI can't sell their games after it's a year old, due to licences for that game running out.

[Nerion]

Don't be fooled in thinking that a pirate sees copy protection and finds himself having to buy the game. He wasn't going to buy the game anyway. Pirates will always pirate, let them. They don't matter. We do, the paying customers. Focus on us. We are buying FM because we like it and want to support you. We're not buying it because of the protection you've put in place.

There is so much truth in here..

There are pirates who are not interested in paying for games. Since nowadays people don't have to crack their own software anymore, and fool can get their DRM-free game as long as they know (or are told) where to get it.

There are pirates that are fed up with unfinished games or the large amount of money they need to spend, as they can't check out the full product before they have bought it (in most cases anyway) and feel they have the right to try before they buy.

There's also people who know very well how to get a pirated copy of their game, but for various reasons (ranging from 'wanting to support a developer' to 'being afraid they will get caught').

Now say someone comes up with some fancy new DRM, it is now impossible to properly play a game with this DRM, which unfortunately also causes several legitimate customers issues, because that simply is the trade-off when you want to hit a large enough amount of pirates. So, how will this affect the groups mentioned above?

Will Mr. I-pay-nothing-for-mah-software suddenly feel inclined to buy this product, because he can't get it to work? No. He will move on to a game without this DRM and perhaps waits for the moment when this DRM will get cracked. Because it will always get cracked.

Will Mr. Try-before-I-Buy, who feels screwed by bad buying decisions in the past, suddenly feel that the inability to get this game started is a reason to go out and buy this game? I think it's most likely he will see this as confirmation that it's not safe to just go out and buy a game, as he feels this would've probably happened to a legitimate copy aswell. He will move on to a game without this DRM and perhaps waits for the moment when this DRM will get cracked. Because it will always get cracked.

And then we arrive to the true supporters of the games industry. The people that know they could get a cracked copy, but do not feel inclined to get it. Once they hear about the issues regarding the game, will they still go out and buy it like they intended to? Most probably still will, some might refuse to buy it out of protest, while others will simply wait for the moment when this DRM will get cracked. Because it will always get cracked. So, the game still sold reasonably well, but now the forums get swamped by people who claim that their legitimate copy of the game refuses to work properly. The majority of the supporters will quickly arrive to the conclusion that the people in question must be evil pirates who should get out of here. Some will probably have their doubts, try to be civilised about the whole deal, and then there's the people that got screwed. They might throw the game in the bin, might wait for the crack.. but do you think they'll go out and buy the next installment of this game?

If anybody knows any other group of people, I will gladly inform you why DRM will not make them buy games or how the more invasive kinds of DRM will make some of them consider piracy if they hadn't already.

I am well aware that the games industry (especially the publishers) are not going to drop DRM at this point. However, slowly but surely, some of them are beginning to realize that harming their consumer-base is not helping them. -Everybody- can pirate pretty much any game at the moment. No DRM is going to change this, unless you're into multiplayer games. It's the people that decide whether or not they're going to pay for a game, not the DRM, and once developers and publishers start realizing this, then, maybe, we will see some sensible decisions being made.

[geir.mjosund]

It is not stealing and that is according to the law.

Taking a game out of the shop is stealing and is a criminal case.

This is the most stupid statement pirates always use. Downloading is also stealing, where do people get this idea.

[davestu]

This is the most stupid statement pirates always use. Downloading is also stealing, where do people get this idea.

Urm...becuase that is the case to the letter of the law??!!

If you are talking about a morale standpoint here, then I agree with you wholehartedly. However, downloading illegally is a civil copyright case. You can be sued for it by he company, but it is not "stealing" in the truest legal sense of the word. It should be though, and the law needs to be changed do that pirates can be brought to a full criminal stand for their actions. Enough criminal cases and the majority of it would cease.

[SmurfDude]

http://www.shacknews.com/featuredarticle.x?id=994

Really interesting interview

[DaveRH]

It is not stealing and that is according to the law.

Taking a game out of the shop is stealing and is a criminal case.

copying a game or downloading it is copyright infringement which is a civil case, not criminal so there for it is not stealing. Someones seen one too many "you wouldnt steal a handbag..." propaganda on DVD intos (which of course are ripped from downloaded DVDs so the pirates never see them and only the people that but them are accused of being thieves.)

Urm...becuase that is the case to the letter of the law??!!

If you are talking about a morale standpoint here, then I agree with you wholehartedly. However, downloading illegally is a civil copyright case. You can be sued for it by he company, but it is not "stealing" in the truest legal sense of the word. It should be though, and the law needs to be changed do that pirates can be brought to a full criminal stand for their actions. Enough criminal cases and the majority of it would cease.

tbh both of you need to learn the difference between stealing and theft. FACT, SI, Sega or Joe Bloggs are more than entitled to call it stealing if they want to.

And I don't agree that downloaders should be criminally prosecuted.

[Nerion]

http://www.shacknews.com/featuredarticle.x?id=994

Really interesting interview

Ah man that's good stuff. He explains is very clearly too. Definately a must-read.

[philly_flyer10]

tbh both of you need to learn the difference between stealing and theft. FACT, SI, Sega or Joe Bloggs are more than entitled to call it stealing if they want to.

Of course they can but they would be wrong. The law all over the world proves that.

It seems youve been taken in by the propaganda campaigns.

[davestu]

http://www.shacknews.com/featuredarticle.x?id=994

Really interesting interview

Thank you, that was a very very good read, well worth it.

[davestu]

tbh both of you need to learn the difference between stealing and theft. FACT, SI, Sega or Joe Bloggs are more than entitled to call it stealing if they want to.

And I don't agree that downloaders should be criminally prosecuted.

Urm...no. Theft is a characterization of stealing, so no it is not FACT. A company/entity/person cannot simply state anything directly to/about a person/company/entity when the characterization of that statement has legal implications. That would be libelous/slanderous. As Philly Flyer says, what you have stated is a propaganda spin quoted from companies who push anti-piracy campaigns hard. They can get away with it because they accuse no-body directly. They themselves tread on thin ice in this case.

Nobody is entitled to call anyone\anything whatever they feel like "if they want". They may well do, but they are in fact wrong to do so according to law in 99% (made up stat alert!) of the world.

[philly_flyer10]

I read as that 1st but I think he was referring to the F.A.C.T. (lol at the T, very ironic considering the thread.)

[DaveRH]

A company/entity/person cannot simply state anything directly to/about a person/company/entity when the characterization of that statement has legal implications. That would be libelous/slanderous. As Philly Flyer says, what you have stated is a propaganda spin quoted from companies who push anti-piracy campaigns hard. They can get away with it because they accuse no-body directly. They themselves tread on thin ice in this case.

Nobody is entitled to call anyone\anything whatever they feel like "if they want". They may well do, but they are in fact wrong to do so according to law in 99% (made up stat alert!) of the world.

'Stealing' is no crime under law. You can be prosecuted criminally for theft, burglary, fraud etc. The dictionary definition of stealing includes: "to appropriate (ideas, credit, words, etc.) without right or acknowledgment" (dictionary.reference.com).

I don't want to bog down a good thread with symantics, but don't jump down the throats of people when you know perfectly well what they mean.

Edit: I really should have put the '.'s in F.A.C.T. Sorry that wasn't clear!

[Oktober]

The absolute best way to stop piracy is to provide the best after-service possible to consumers. With Spore, Bioshock and the like (and looking like RA3 as well, potentially), the people pirating the game are having all the fun of the game without any of the hassle or worry with it. Clearly there, there's a big advantage to pirating it, so it will continue to thrive.

Say for FM09, theres a fairly basic copy protection thing on it. It hits the torrents within 4 hours of sale. Doh. Then after a week, 9.01 is released. Takes a few days to crack. Week later, 9.02. Bugs cleared up, some badges and kits added. 9.03 after two weeks. All the time, the cracked versions are falling behind while people try and crack the new patches, meaning that legitimate owners are enjoying a much better experience than those who pirated it, who have to make do with the lesser product for a while. Considering most of them are the type who are more about just wanting everything NOW, I doubt interest would be sustainable when they lose a day every 2 weeks in falling behind the legitimate players, having the time of our lives with the new game.

I really think this is the best possible way forward, especially for a game with the size and scope of Football Manager, if only SI could let go of this idea that it 'looks bad that a game needed 20 patches' instead of one 80Mb one in February.

[Hamenaglar]

The absolute best way to stop piracy is to provide the best after-service possible to consumers. With Spore, Bioshock and the like (and looking like RA3 as well, potentially), the people pirating the game are having all the fun of the game without any of the hassle or worry with it. Clearly there, there's a big advantage to pirating it, so it will continue to thrive.

Say for FM09, theres a fairly basic copy protection thing on it. It hits the torrents within 4 hours of sale. Doh. Then after a week, 9.01 is released. Takes a few days to crack. Week later, 9.02. Bugs cleared up, some badges and kits added. 9.03 after two weeks. All the time, the cracked versions are falling behind while people try and crack the new patches, meaning that legitimate owners are enjoying a much better experience than those who pirated it, who have to make do with the lesser product for a while. Considering most of them are the type who are more about just wanting everything NOW, I doubt interest would be sustainable when they lose a day every 2 weeks in falling behind the legitimate players, having the time of our lives with the new game.

I really think this is the best possible way forward, especially for a game with the size and scope of Football Manager, if only SI could let go of this idea that it 'looks bad that a game needed 20 patches' instead of one 80Mb one in February.

I'd be freaking furious if the game had 20 patches. You can be sure that I'd never buy it.

[davestu]

'Stealing' is no crime under law. You can be prosecuted criminally for theft, burglary, fraud etc. The dictionary definition of stealing includes: "to appropriate (ideas, credit, words, etc.) without right or acknowledgment" (dictionary.reference.com).

I'll be honest and am not being aggressive with this. I don't understand your point in pulling this up again, when I already told you why you cannot use the term stealing willy nilly either. It is a characterization of theft, and therefore open to the same libelous or slanderous laws as accusing someone of committing theft (not criminal accusations but civil ones obviously). The dictionary may well point towards 'stealing' as appropriation of copyright illegally but the law certainly does not. It seems that the two may be in conflict with one another in this instance. The law has to side on the characterization issue, as you would expect given the world in which we live having lawsuits flying around like nobodies business

I don't want to bog down a good thread with symantics, but don't jump down the throats of people when you know perfectly well what they mean.!

I guess I may have come across as jumping down the man's throat when I replied to him. I certainly didn't mean to. I was simply pointing out in less specific terms what I have done in my previous reply to you, as well as this one. I still maintain, that since it cannot be termed stealing just as it cannot be termed theft. I have to say, I didn't know perfectly well what he meant. I apologize for not understanding what it was he was trying to say. I guess looking back I should have just left it well alone, since I shouldn't really care what he thought. After all in a forum everything is everyones opinion, language barriers and proximity tied education (not level of, simply standpoint) always seem to lead to a situation like this.

I agree though, I don't want to tie up this thread with a petty semantics argument, which is exactly what it feels like to me I say we leave it where it is and move on, Any good?

Edit: I really should have put the '.'s in F.A.C.T. Sorry that wasn't clear!

Ah...now I see

[Leeboy]

What ever system is used it will be broken, there are far to many brainy people out there not to do it im affraid.

[Necrodeemus]

Simple really.

Everyone in this country has either internetz or access to a phone. If you have neither then the likelyhood is your not going to have a computer capable of running FM2009. If you dont have either but the computer to run it then you are likely to be in the extreme minority, and there is still access to a phone, just make it clear on the packaging product requires activation by this. Majority of users purchasing this product will have previous incarnations so they aint gonna be put of by this.

So, after we establish that you just make sure that every copy of the game has to be registered via either internet or over the phone.

If customer has to use phone, service rep will put in serial into SI secure online database so that if user does use internet in future it can do a online check.

For all those that have internet, which is alot of us, just make the game do a online check on a server after registration.

Last but not least, employ someone to check all the sites where illegal content can be obtained, check every key given, posted, add it to a list, delete it from servers so online checking can stop those idiots who download illegals!!

HardCode it into the patches so if they do not do internet checks, when they do get a patch copy.. they doomed!

Alot of people have critized DRM, however its the best of a bad situation. Spore sounds kinda bad luck, but how often do people need to install a product on more then 6 machines or on same machine 6 times? And alot of people are bad mouthing EA, which in a way is ok because there product support and product gold releases which are full of bugs are a joke, however anyone who has played Battlefield Series knows how easy online checking can be.

[Bobbins71]

Only one problem with that matey not everyone lives in Britain...and I will become Pope before New Zealand gets broadband even worthy of the name, never mind fibre optics.

Going off topic, but mobile broadband is already here. Forget fibre optics. You can get HSPA which allows 7.2Mb/s download already, better than a lot of 'wired' broadband packages. 150Mb mobile broadband will be available in a few years (2 to 3 years and it will be commonplace). The best selling mobile device today in Europe isn't a phone, it's the "dongle". New laptops from Xmas from Dell/Toshiba etc will have HSPA fitted inside as standard. The price in Sweden right now is €21/month unlimited. New Zealand has these services already (probably more expensive right now than here in Sweden) but you already have Broadband "worthy of the name". So don't rule out becoming pope just yet.

[Neji]

Simple really.

So simple, pirates still crack just about every game/product that is released

So, after we establish that you just make sure that every copy of the game has to be registered via either internet or over the phone.

Adobe do this and their software is cracked.

If customer has to use phone, service rep will put in serial into SI secure online database so that if user does use internet in future it can do a online check.

And how much money is this going to cost SI exactly?

For all those that have internet, which is alot of us, just make the game do a online check on a server after registration.

Alot of games do this now - you know what? Cracked.

Last but not least, employ someone to check all the sites where illegal content can be obtained, check every key given, posted, add it to a list, delete it from servers so online checking can stop those idiots who download illegals!!

Again, many software developers do this and their software is cracked too.

HardCode it into the patches so if they do not do internet checks, when they do get a patch copy.. they doomed!

Pirates will bypass that with a patch, like they do current server activation.

[drunkpunk]

http://www.shacknews.com/featuredarticle.x?id=994

Really interesting interview

That was really interesting to read, cheers.

[Hamenaglar]

Simple really.

Everyone in this country has either internetz or access to a phone. If you have neither then the likelyhood is your not going to have a computer capable of running FM2009. If you dont have either but the computer to run it then you are likely to be in the extreme minority, and there is still access to a phone, just make it clear on the packaging product requires activation by this. Majority of users purchasing this product will have previous incarnations so they aint gonna be put of by this.

So, after we establish that you just make sure that every copy of the game has to be registered via either internet or over the phone.

If customer has to use phone, service rep will put in serial into SI secure online database so that if user does use internet in future it can do a online check.

For all those that have internet, which is alot of us, just make the game do a online check on a server after registration.

Last but not least, employ someone to check all the sites where illegal content can be obtained, check every key given, posted, add it to a list, delete it from servers so online checking can stop those idiots who download illegals!!

HardCode it into the patches so if they do not do internet checks, when they do get a patch copy.. they doomed!

Alot of people have critized DRM, however its the best of a bad situation. Spore sounds kinda bad luck, but how often do people need to install a product on more then 6 machines or on same machine 6 times? And alot of people are bad mouthing EA, which in a way is ok because there product support and product gold releases which are full of bugs are a joke, however anyone who has played Battlefield Series knows how easy online checking can be.

You can be sure that I'd never consider buying a game that would have to be activated either by internet or phone. UK and US are not the whole world, also I play games to relax and rest and activating the game is nuisance and therefor kills the very purpose for me.

Also what you fail to understand, games will always be cracked, the reason is quite simple, human beings aren't perfect and therefor can not create a perfect protection.

If indeed the game industry will continue to devise new protections that will hamper loyal and paying customers, I'll rather switch either to books.

[Donners]

I think Stardock have it best. No DRM on the original release, unique ID on the CD required to get any support, online play and patches. Anything else is just punishing those who do the right thing.

I refuse to buy any game where my title to the game is limited, such as Spore and Mass Effect.

[rakhabbit]

However, we will do everything we can to ensure that the legitimate customer suffers as little as possible, whilst providing as much protection as possible to stop people stealing our game. We know we can't stop it 100%, but we have to try.

All perfectly understandable.

But you missed the important reason, fewer pirated copies means more legit sales, which means you get paid.

[Hamenaglar]

All perfectly understandable.

But you missed the important reason, fewer pirated copies means more legit sales, which means you get paid.

I'm not sure what's the point. Ofcourse they'll get paid, we want them to get paid, so they can make a living and continue making and improving this game.

[r0x0r]

I think education and lower prices would help much more in lowering down piracy than any form of protection.

Fm is usually available for £25 in the UK...

What can you buy for £25? Seriously?

It's not even a night out. Especially in London...

And education? Most pirates are quite educated on the matter. What you need is their good will, which seems to be earnt by producing top quality games with a drm system that doesn't hinder genuine customers.

[r0x0r]

Simple really.

Everyone in this country has either internetz or access to a phone. If you have neither then the likelyhood is your not going to have a computer capable of running FM2009. If you dont have either but the computer to run it then you are likely to be in the extreme minority, and there is still access to a phone, just make it clear on the packaging product requires activation by this. Majority of users purchasing this product will have previous incarnations so they aint gonna be put of by this.

So, after we establish that you just make sure that every copy of the game has to be registered via either internet or over the phone.

If customer has to use phone, service rep will put in serial into SI secure online database so that if user does use internet in future it can do a online check.

For all those that have internet, which is alot of us, just make the game do a online check on a server after registration.

Last but not least, employ someone to check all the sites where illegal content can be obtained, check every key given, posted, add it to a list, delete it from servers so online checking can stop those idiots who download illegals!!

HardCode it into the patches so if they do not do internet checks, when they do get a patch copy.. they doomed!

Alot of people have critized DRM, however its the best of a bad situation. Spore sounds kinda bad luck, but how often do people need to install a product on more then 6 machines or on same machine 6 times? And alot of people are bad mouthing EA, which in a way is ok because there product support and product gold releases which are full of bugs are a joke, however anyone who has played Battlefield Series knows how easy online checking can be.

So you think it's right to limit to three installations? What about people like me with a laptop used on holiday, and two pc's in the house? If we have to format one, once, we're screwed.

And call in or internet verify is fair enough, if SEGA have phone hotlines open worldwide, 24/7 and manned adequetly to ensure no queues. Microsoft can afford it. Can SEGA? Even then I'd argue it'd have to be a freephone number.

Plus what happens if SEGA/SI go bust in 4 years time, and I want to play FM09? I'm screwed. There lies the biggest problem with online verification.

I'd accept online verification if all those factors were covered, and a year post release, a patch was released that could be applied on top of a new install to verify the game was real in case the company ever folded. A year post-release, who's pirating a football manager game anyway?

Even then, it's a hoop for a genuine user to jump though. Scummy McPegleg, however, grabs his copy from uberdownloadw0rld or whatever next week's hot p2p site is, unzips it, installs it and enjoys. He's sitting back playing the game while you, Mr Honest McBoughtthegame are sitting there with a verification server that's crashed, phonelines with an hour long queue and rising ire.

Will this reduce piracy, or increase it?

[r0x0r]

All perfectly understandable.

But you missed the important reason, fewer pirated copies means more legit sales, which means you get paid.

Could you show me a single place this has been verified?

Or are you just guessing?

Most people who pirate games probably wouldn't have bought the games they pirate if they weren't free. Show me a solid piece of peer reviewed evidence suggesting that by making a game harder to pirate you increase sales and I'll concede the point to you.

If you want empirical evidence on excessive DRM and it's effect on PC Game Sales though, i suggest you look up Mass Effect. The pc version tanked, mainly because of the DRM included.

Even if harder to pirate meant more games, it'd have to be hard enough to pirate that most people couldn't access it for weeks or months to have any chance of affecting sales one bit. Mass Effect, Bioshock and Spore have been some of the "hardest to pirate" games ever. I could still get a pirate copy of any of the three within a day or two of release if I had chosen to. Pre-release, in Spore and Mass Effect's cases.

Will the fact that it took eXt3m3 Vyp3r 133t 18 hours of hardcore coding to crack a game make any difference to a downloader? No. The game is still up there pre release, downloadable with a click of a mouse, installable with no problems. So how exactly has this extremely hard to break DRM hurt the average downloader? It's given the cracker a challenge, a chance to make a name. That's the only person it's effected.

Other than the genuine user, in extreme examples.

[Donners]

And call in or internet verify is fair enough, if SEGA have phone hotlines open worldwide, 24/7 and manned adequetly to ensure no queues. Microsoft can afford it. Can SEGA? Even then I'd argue it'd have to be a freephone number.

EA charges $2.50 a minute.

[Hamenaglar]

Fm is usually available for £25 in the UK...

What can you buy for £25? Seriously?

It's not even a night out. Especially in London...

And education? Most pirates are quite educated on the matter. What you need is their good will, which seems to be earnt by producing top quality games with a drm system that doesn't hinder genuine customers.

I can't speak about UK, but new in croatia new games usually cost about 400 Kn (45 GBP) . The witcher which is a year old game costs about 300 Kn (33 GBP). As far I can see currently Kuna and GBP are 8.9 to 1. I'd say average paycheck in croatia is between 3000 Kn ( 330 GBP) and 4000 Kn ( 450 GBP) but even that might be a too high estimation. So basically the games in croatia cost between 10% and 20% of a paycheck. Oh and just to note, my night out usually doesn't cost more than 5-6 GBPs.

Oh and just to note, as a student, I could probably survive for a week and a half maybe even two weeks on 25 GBPs.

As for education, I mean in terms that most people don't really understand that by buying the game they support the developer to produce new and better games. It's not that they can't grasp that concept, they just don't think about it. If they can get a pirated game for a cost of an empty DVD compared to the £40 the legal game costs it turns out to be simple economics. And yes education is needed because in countries like croatia terem "intellectual property" is almost non-existent, EVERYTHING gets illegally copied here, books, music, movies, software, you name it, we will get you a copy for half the price. And it is quite normal to have illegal copies, nobody is ashamed of that.

and I can assure publishers at one thing. No protection in the world (even the perfect, uncrackable one) will force croats to buy legal games, at least not at the current prices.

[kiwityke]

Going off topic, but mobile broadband is already here. Forget fibre optics. You can get HSPA which allows 7.2Mb/s download already, better than a lot of 'wired' broadband packages. 150Mb mobile broadband will be available in a few years (2 to 3 years and it will be commonplace). The best selling mobile device today in Europe isn't a phone, it's the "dongle". New laptops from Xmas from Dell/Toshiba etc will have HSPA fitted inside as standard. The price in Sweden right now is €21/month unlimited. New Zealand has these services already (probably more expensive right now than here in Sweden) but you already have Broadband "worthy of the name". So don't rule out becoming pope just yet.

I have to use 'broadband' in New Zealand and it is rediculously slow, this was my point, I have broadband, its just cr*p. Thats why I said its not 'worthy of the name broadband'. Our one Major city Auckland might have quick broadband, but we serfs in the South Island countryside certainly don't.

So I won't be getting my Mitre hat out just yet.

Back to the topic and I agree with the majority of people in this topic if FM had protection or not, I don't see how pirates would be put off pirating the game. I have always purchased the game and always will. Pirates will always pirate the game, and always will. I dont see how DRM makes any difference to this.

[Whatever FFS]

The activation limit on Spore has little to do with anti-piracy and is primarily aimed at reducing the resale value (to nothing) of the game.

[philly_flyer10]

Heres a good article about spore. http://www.forbes.com/2008/09/12/spore-drm-piracy-tech-security-cx_ag_mji_0912spore.html

Theres loads of people pirating the game including people who would have bought it without the invasive DRM.

The DRM is driving people to pirate the games so they can get a clean install.

[JonPaulWild]

The activation limit on Spore has little to do with anti-piracy and is primarily aimed at reducing the resale value (to nothing) of the game.

Sad thing is, it is actually morally acceptable to sell a product after you've bought it. But yet the big companies want to try and prevent that, or still profit from it.

Ford don't profit if I sell my car second hand, why should EA profit from a person who's bought the game from profiting again?

[Liniert]

The activation limit on Spore has little to do with anti-piracy and is primarily aimed at reducing the resale value (to nothing) of the game.

i found this intresting when it was released around the time Spore was...

link

[bigdaddydave]

This is why consoles are such attractive platforms for games companies. To play a pirated PC you need no modifications and little technical knowledge, On the consoles to play pirated games you either have a "softmod" option such as the PSP and XBox 360 have, or a modchip option like the wii, both methods require you to either pay someone to do it or have the technical skills to perform them yourself and potentially you can damage your console as a result of bad soldering or flashing.

The Nintendo DS is the exception as any idiot can use a flashcard where all you do is copy across the games.

Then you have the PS3 which right now is still not hacked, so you can see why software companies are ****ed when console version massively outsell the pc version even though more people own PC's.

Developers need to figure a way to not use DRM yet still try to stop piracy otherwise the PC gaming market will slowly vanish.

[philly_flyer10]

Then you have the PS3 which right now is still not hacked, so you can see why software companies are ****ed when console version massively outsell the pc version even though more people own PC's.

More people might own PCs, but how many of them have a computer that costs over a grand that is capable of running the latest games? I bet half those PCs dont even have a graphics card capable of running any game.

[philly_flyer10]

i found this intresting when it was released around the time Spore was...

link

I love their way of thinking. How do we cut 2nd hand sales? Easy, sell a lot less of the new product!

Bravo EA, Bravo!

[The Glory Hunter]

DRA is a waste of time. Make it worthwhile for users to register offering bonus material monthly data updates, gameplay guides and registered user only forums.

[r0x0r]

EA charges $2.50 a minute.

To activate a game you have already paid for?

If i'm asked to call a premium rate line to get my game to install, i'll be visiting the small claims court for my money back on the game.

[r0x0r]

I can't speak about UK, but new in croatia new games usually cost about 400 Kn (45 GBP) . The witcher which is a year old game costs about 300 Kn (33 GBP). As far I can see currently Kuna and GBP are 8.9 to 1. I'd say average paycheck in croatia is between 3000 Kn ( 330 GBP) and 4000 Kn ( 450 GBP) but even that might be a too high estimation. So basically the games in croatia cost between 10% and 20% of a paycheck. Oh and just to note, my night out usually doesn't cost more than 5-6 GBPs.

Oh and just to note, as a student, I could probably survive for a week and a half maybe even two weeks on 25 GBPs.

As for education, I mean in terms that most people don't really understand that by buying the game they support the developer to produce new and better games. It's not that they can't grasp that concept, they just don't think about it. If they can get a pirated game for a cost of an empty DVD compared to the £40 the legal game costs it turns out to be simple economics. And yes education is needed because in countries like croatia terem "intellectual property" is almost non-existent, EVERYTHING gets illegally copied here, books, music, movies, software, you name it, we will get you a copy for half the price. And it is quite normal to have illegal copies, nobody is ashamed of that.

and I can assure publishers at one thing. No protection in the world (even the perfect, uncrackable one) will force croats to buy legal games, at least not at the current prices.

The problem is if they offer the games at a "reasonable" price in croatia, then tescos can buy a load up there and sell them for £10 each here.

I'm afraid the global economy means that if you want goods from countries with higher average earnings, you tend to have to pay through the nose.

But without it, you couldn't have FM at all.