Explanation of the Impact of Player Attributes During Match Play

[heathxxx]

So someone not tall can still be lethal.

As far as I'm aware, height is still mostly cosmetic. Happy to stand corrected if I'm wrong about that though. Realistically speaking, player height doesn't always mean better at jumping and heading. Take Carles Puyol for example. Not the tallest defender around at only 5'10", but superb in the air. His goal in the WC semi-final was evidence enough of that. Arguably in FM, his attributes in jumping and heading are a little under-rated IMO. I know the lead Spanish researcher now though, so I'll be having words

[Cleon]

As far as I'm aware, height is still mostly cosmetic. Happy to stand corrected if I'm wrong about that though. Realistically speaking, player height doesn't always mean better at jumping and heading. Take Carles Puyol for example. Not the tallest defender around at only 5'10", but superb in the air. His goal in the WC semi-final was evidence enough of that. Arguably in FM, his attributes in jumping and heading are a little under-rated IMO. I know the lead Spanish researcher now though, so I'll be having words

The ME has been using height since FM09 may have ever been FM08. But it definetly is used.

Jumping as an attribute is how high the player can get his head off the ground, height is taken into consideration as part of this.

Height is also included in the ME calculations when the player decides if he has to jump or not to reach a ball in the air.

From PaulC

[heathxxx]

Hmm, glad to have that confirmed Cleon. Forgot all about that comment from PaulC. I think it will most likely have been with FM09 and the introduction of the 3D match engine. Makes sense really, when you consider how the ME needs to represent things. I think FM08 and prior, it was most likely cosmetic. Though players might have been under the impression that height mattered, due to the overpowered nature of "big strong" forwards. That was more to do with their physical attributes and ME balance. It was more coincidence that they were tall.

Still makes me think Puyol's aerial ability obviously won't be represented accurately in FM, given his attributes. Also makes me wonder how aware of the workings of attributes in the ME researchers are, when working out the figures. Likewise, I wonder how height affects goalkeepers, considering there's a few very good keepers around who are "short" by average keeper heights.

I guess that height may be another important attribute for FM'ers to consider, in conjunction with linked and appropriate attributes.

[Powermonger]

I was thinking more about attributes today and their inter-relationships and the way they interact with each other in the ME. Just as Natural Fitness and Stamina is the charger and battery which power the physical/technical attributes, it is safe to say Concentration is the equivalent for the Mental attributes?

Thus a poor concentration rating will have a wide ranging affect over other mental attributes, which in turn flows on to the physical and technical attributes. Decisions is the key attribute for every player as it has a hand in every choice a player makes, but Concentration is what drives the decision process, it keeps it fueled.

[Cleon]

Concentration is the ability to stay focused for the full 90 minutes. So someone with low concentration would be more likely to switch off during a game, especially in the latter stages of a game. For me teamwork and workrate are the driving forces of Mental attributes moreso than concentration. I can live with someone having low concentration and maybe make up for that to some extent tactically. Workrate and teamwork you can't make up for imo.

[djosey]

Great read, many thanks!

[PyramidHead]

Very interesting read and an excellent analysis of how the attributes "play". I look forward to your ebook.

[Chrisy177]

I think you've just solved a lot of my problems in my midfield - can't believe I never even considered anticipation as a crucial attribute - thanks a lot for writing this!

[Cleon]

I think you've just solved a lot of my problems in my midfield - can't believe I never even considered anticipation as a crucial attribute - thanks a lot for writing this!

Glad to have been of assistance

[john1]

Wow! your write up just blew me away and best write up I've seen on SI. Fantastic work Cleon (Y)

[Cleon]

Cheers, I appreciate the comments

[The Tactician]

2 quick fun questions...

(Ignoring CA weight, age etc) If you had a player who had 1 for every attribute but had 20 for one attribute, which would you pick and why?

Also, if you had a player with 20 for everything but had to have 1 for an attribute, which would it be?

These can be hidden, technical, mental or physical .

[Cleon]

2 quick fun questions...

(Ignoring CA weight, age etc) If you had a player who had 1 for every attribute but had 20 for one attribute, which would you pick and why?

Also, if you had a player with 20 for everything but had to have 1 for an attribute, which would it be?

These can be hidden, technical, mental or physical .

Tricky questions... for the first one though it would probably be decisions or anticipation. Been able to make the correct decision or anticipate the correct decision is vital for all players. Even if the player is rubbish, just knowing he would make an alright choice most of the time.

I'd have crossing set to 1 as I don't need to cross the ball.

[SFraser]

2 quick fun questions...

(Ignoring CA weight, age etc) If you had a player who had 1 for every attribute but had 20 for one attribute, which would you pick and why?

Also, if you had a player with 20 for everything but had to have 1 for an attribute, which would it be?

These can be hidden, technical, mental or physical .

Tricky questions... for the first one though it would probably be decisions or anticipation. Been able to make the correct decision or anticipate the correct decision is vital for all players. Even if the player is rubbish, just knowing he would make an alright choice most of the time.

I'd have crossing set to 1 as I don't need to cross the ball.

That would have been my pick as well.

If he is awful at everything then the ability to see things earlier than everyone else is going to make a much bigger difference than the ability to finish well or tackle well or run quickly.

Another attribute I had in mind would be Stamina. If he can last longer than everyone else then as the game goes on everyone else is going to come down nearer to his level, which is pretty much the same as all his attributes going up a bit.

It's quite an interesting question and you could possibly call these attributes "meta-attributes" or "meta gameplay" as in attributes or attribute-related gameplay issues that effect everything in some way. Decisions like Cleon chose would also be a "meta-attribute" that has a huge amount of influence on pretty much everything. Indeed while some of the Mental attributes are more contextual than others, positioning/off-the-ball etc. there are many Mental attributes that are these kind of "meta attributes" that do have have an effect on almost everything on the pitch.

You might also call it "a bit of a cheat answer" to your question going for attributes that affect everything in some way rather than picking one key attribute that only affects some particular aspect of a players game

If I had to pick under those conditions I would probably go for Strength, or Technique. Though to be honest the player would be beyond any hope of saving if you couldn't pick these "meta-attribute" types. Maybe Free-Kicks so I might bag a few goals from set pieces despite him being utterly useless everywhere else. Though without good Technique or Flair that's not going to help much either.

[The Tactician]

Thanks for answering Cleon and SFraser .

I assumed you'd go for some kind of mental attribute and SFraser, I was reading a post you made on another website just before:

In my own Manchester United save where I have tried to keep signings relatively realistic for a computer game, it is hugely intriguing to watch the kind of goals that Michael Owen scores with his game topping 20 Anticipation.

He is woeful at build up play, woeful as a channel running lone striker, woeful as a physical presence, and basically woeful at 90% of the roles you want from a forward at a club like Manchester United, and yet he is absolutely lethal in a particular role.

If your winger mis-hits a cross into the box, it is Owen that reacts first and nips ahead of the Centreback and to the ball before the goalkeeper. If the ball is cleared by the defense and falls to Scholes/Carrick then as the defense moves forward it is Owen that nips in behind the Centreback and in the blink of an eye suddenly has the ball in 6-7 yards of space one-on-one with the goalkeeper.

And I fired up my Manchester United save and played Michael Owen in my next match with poacher instructions without move into channels as you said he doesn't run the channels and I also didn't want to tire him out with his low fitness and kept a very, very close eye on him and it is now quite evident just how much quicker he reacts than my other striker and the defender. As moves were building up, he'd run into the space between the two CB's or the CB and his fullback and was quite a few yards ahead by the time the ball is played and it has never been more obvious and I can't believe I have neglected the attribute so much!

So thanks to both of you for opening my eyes at some of the attributes and I will definately keep an eye out for a few more .

[Cleon]

That would have been my pick as well.

If he is awful at everything then the ability to see things earlier than everyone else is going to make a much bigger difference than the ability to finish well or tackle well or run quickly

Yes, exactly the same reason why I'd for it too.

Another attribute I had in mind would be Stamina. If he can last longer than everyone else then as the game goes on everyone else is going to come down nearer to his level, which is pretty much the same as all his attributes going up a bit.

That's another good one to have especially in the last 20 minutes of a game it would start to be more visible.

It's quite an interesting question and you could possibly call these attributes "meta-attributes" or "meta gameplay" as in attributes or attribute-related gameplay issues that effect everything in some way. Decisions like Cleon chose would also be a "meta-attribute" that has a huge amount of influence on pretty much everything. Indeed while some of the Mental attributes are more contextual than others, positioning/off-the-ball etc. there are many Mental attributes that are these kind of "meta attributes" that do have have an effect on almost everything on the pitch.

I always try and look for these 'meta-attribute' in a player as its important for the reasons you mentioned. I'm also taking the 'meta-attribute' word and using it for that thing I sent you yesterday;) That's a really good way of summing them up in my opnion.

You might also call it "a bit of a cheat answer" to your question going for attributes that affect everything in some way rather than picking one key attribute that only affects some particular aspect of a players game

I think its a clever answer because I suspect a large percentage of people would pick things like Pace, Acceleration or finishing. But we've chose answers that would have a direct impact on other stats and influence play that way.

And I fired up my Manchester United save and played Michael Owen in my next match with poacher instructions without move into channels as you said he doesn't run the channels and I also didn't want to tire him out with his low fitness and kept a very, very close eye on him and it is now quite evident just how much quicker he reacts than my other striker and the defender. As moves were building up, he'd run into the space between the two CB's or the CB and his fullback and was quite a few yards ahead by the time the ball is played and it has never been more obvious and I can't believe I have neglected the attribute so much!

So thanks to both of you for opening my eyes at some of the attributes and I will definately keep an eye out for a few more

That's a really good way of seeing how the 'anticipation' attribute works. It's also a really good example and different to how I highlighted anticipation with James Milner. It shows it working in a different scenario:thup:

[heathxxx]

2 quick fun questions...

(Ignoring CA weight, age etc) If you had a player who had 1 for every attribute but had 20 for one attribute, which would you pick and why?

Also, if you had a player with 20 for everything but had to have 1 for an attribute, which would it be?

These can be hidden, technical, mental or physical .

1 for everything bar one 20... Determination is what I would go for. Speaking of which, I've had a career save on the go, hopping from club to club. Latest victims are Venezia in the Italian 3rd tier. I neglected to look at the squad before I went (just thought, "oooh, Venice sounds nice!"), only to discover hardly any player had much in double figures for attributes. A couple had decent determination and they were the only ones with any fight in them when we were trailing opponents.

20 for everything bar one 1... This one is easy! I'll take a 1 in "dirtiness", thank you. Don't mind my players giving opponents the odd thump, or "Glasgow Kiss"

[Chrisy177]

A 1 rating for one attribute only? I would think injury proneness would be a pretty good bet, if it's not already been said! For a visible attribute, I'd go for Long Throws or Corners.

[duffy89]

What a great insight into how attributes (especially mental ones) not only effect player performance but how they effect individual movements and actions on the field. Has certailnly provided plenty of food for thought for me, well done again Cleon

[Tinkerman84]

Fantastic, and probably the best thread and thoughts as far as i concerned looking forward to read more..

My question would be although i evaluate " mental attributes" as the most important one, i can't understand why Rooney type player is so inconsistent, and when he's out of form it is almost impossible to mend him.. ( considering he has nice mentall attributes)

I also, sometimes have fantastic world-class players underperforming even they have 19 anticiaption 15 determination, 19 marking ( for a defender ), also a midfielder which was performing well the season before, but so poor the season after with also improved attributes.. Sometimes it makes mad to see those kind of situations , and looking forward to your priceless thoughts and advices with dealing this kind situations..

[ashbag]

I get all the outfield ones. But I find goalkeepers odd. Mainly because I don't always see where certain things affecting their game. For instance, I have played two goalkeepers with 10 one on ones and 6 reflexes and 10 or under agility (Sullivan and Nikopolidis), but both of them made wonder reflex saves. In one point, my player blasted it at goal from 10 yards at a tight angle, the only real attributes that could affect this save was positioning, one on ones, reflexes and agility. Possibly balance. two of them are extremely poor. Balance and one on ones is an average 13. The player taking the shot was Linz, with 16 finishing, 17 composure and 12 technique (although technique hardly comes into a blast at goal). He makes the save. Which wasn't unexpected, as he'd been making great reflex saves all day. I told myself it was his positioning and balance. But then the rebound come to Petrovic, who blasts it into the opposite corner. Yes, somehow, Nikopolidis gets up and jumps all the way acroos the goal line and catches it with ease.

It was a save Buffon and Casillas would struggle with. I understand he has 16 determination. But for all the determination in the world, it is just physically impossible for him to get there with 6 agility, 4 acceleration, 2 pace and 10 jumping. And his 6 reflexes. No positioning in it, he was a heap on the ground when the shot was taken. So, how is this possible?

Ironically, we won the game 1-0 as a lack of communication let Neymar through and his shot was poor but Nikopolidis dropped it into his own net. the irony is that his communication, handling, and concentration are all 15. So I have no idea how this moment happened, or some of his wonder saves did.

But at the opposite end of the spectrum, I have Yann Sommer, who has 5 times had a ball dropping right at him at around 5mph, with no other player even in the box, put his 18 handling to excellent use and punching over the bar. He has 13 tendency to punch, but even so, it does not warrant even the one time as it is the kind of easy catch every keeper loves.

I was just wondering if there was anything at all that can possibly explain these events. They just seem absurd. It seems like none of their attributes were taken into account in any of the events. I've only ever found it happen with goalkeepers though. Just instances where goalkeepers who are average or poor shot-stoppers but great commanders are making great saves against players with high finishing and composure and technique yet letting crosses go right through them. And then the opposite way around.

I was also told by a researcher Ariel Ability is effectively a goalkeeper's jumping. This thoroughly confused me.

[heathxxx]

I was also told by a researcher Ariel Ability is effectively a goalkeeper's jumping. This thoroughly confused me.

That's correct to an extent and also height can come into play too. Think about it.

A keeper's Aerial Ability will be underpinned by his Jumping and height. These will both aid in his ability to get higher in the air than other players. As with other player attributes, they are linked.

[ashbag]

But I thought it was his basic ability to get high balls. Something that's mixed with strength, jumping, height and determination. But he said it was just a goalkeeper's jumping stat, which confused me as to, a) seems a bit odd and unrealistic, b) why do they have it when there's already a perfectly good jumping attribute.

[Ampalaea4]

Very usefull thread!I hope it will go through time and expand give us more details!

As I said in another thread (no one answered) I would be very interesting to know how attributes affect Preferred Moves.I mean the the assistant suggest me to teach a player a preferred move, play short passes for example.

What attributes should I check to be sure that this ppm will help player?Some of them is obvious, short simple passes mean player has low passing - creativity - decision.

I understand that Mental abilities are far more superior than physical - technical.A Midfielder with good anticipation - positioning and decision will save a lot of meters, that a low mentality midfielder will run, so it is straight affect physical attributes...

Something else I didn't understand.If the midfielder have the ball and have 2 options for pass.Both are good, but 1 option is really very good and may lead to goal.What attribute will ensure he make the pass to the player that he provide the best for the team?

creativity or decision?He must make a decision, this is obvious.But I think that creativity will ensure best possible pass and not decisions.I think decisions and creativity is the same, creativity for attacking moves and decision for defensive moves.

a defender have the ball and someone close him down, he has 2 options, to try a short pass, or to just kick the ball far away and hopefully "find" a teammate in the attack.Now decision (composure also) play part here and not creativity.

So I think that decision is only for defenders.Attacking players will use creativity instead...It is the same thing as it is positioning and off the ball.Positioning for defenders, off the ball for attackers..

[Tidd19]

I believe your going along the right lines with the PPMs and match attributes. I personally think you could extend it to high long shot high technique players to shoot from distance and high bravery, high aggression, high strength, low anticipation players diving into tackles.

Creativity is the ability to 'see' the passes that are available. A player needs high creativity to see both passes, his flair & decisions will decide which pass of the two he chooses. High Decisions will cause him to try the best pass, the pass that will most benefit the team & also has a higher chance of being completed succesfully. His flair will bias him towards the more audascious 'wow' pass that will often wrong-foot the opposition and setup a goal-scoring opportunity.

With low creativity a player will only see the most basic of passes making him a terrible playmaker, but not necessarily a terrible player. In your defender example, the defender could have shown either low composure (panicking and booting it upfield), low creativity (didn't see the easy short pass), low decisions (saw the easy pass but decided to launch it anyway) or low technique and first touch but high decisions (knowing his own inability to control and play the ball he opted for the correct decision of launching it).

I would argue that positioning and off the ball aren't really clear cut offensive and defensive either. You will defend better with an entire team and attack better with an entire team than by seperating them into offensive and defensive groups. I would prefer to think of positioning as an out of possession stat and off the ball as an in possession stat. You'd therefore do better to pay a little attention to your forwards positioning and your backlines off the ball stats.

[Ampalaea4]

Thanks a lot Tidd19.I clearly understand now the difference between decisions and creativity.Also your description of "positioning as an out of possession stat and off the ball as an in possession stat" was excellent too

Now the only thing left is a in-depth analysis of Preferred moves and their connection with attributes

I think I am gonna start a new game and aim for a mental-gifted squad, as I always manage middle table teams and is hard to get complete players in my squad.

I ll try to see matches as Cleon described it and try to understand every movement of my players in link with their attributes.

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

Interesting OP rendered completely useless by the new forum mechanics GRRRRRR!

[Ampalaea4]

Flair

A natural talent for the creative and occasional unpredictability. A player with a lot of flair will be one of the key attacking components in any team but at the same time may need tactical restraint to get the best out of him. Flair and Creativity work well together.

I think flair is that shows how much confidence a player have for his abilities.For example a midfielder with high creativity has the ball into position.Another midfielder come close to give him a good passing option.At the same time a striker starts a forward run...

of course a pass to the nearby midfielder is almost 100% success but the killer ball to the striker lets say 40%.

Now lets see what player will do depending on his flair.

Flair = 1 (low confidence) : The pass to the striker is too risky and I don't think I can make it.I will pass to the nearby midfielder.

Flair = 10 (balanced) : Maybe I can pass the ball to the striker well and he will score.I think I can do it!but the midfielder nearby is a very good option too (decision play part here??I am not sure)

Flair = 20 (over confidence) : I am a god-gifted player and I can do anything.I will do this magical killer ball and all the supporters will chant my name!

I still try to find where decisions play part on this event.The most obvious is that a player with good decisions will follow the match strategy.

Control : coach asked to play a control football and therefor a pass to the nearby midfielder will benefit my teams play-style

attacking : coach asked us to play attacking football and gave us a lot of creativity freedom, so I think that the correct decision is to play the killer ball, and not slow down my team with simple passes...

This is how I understand the events and what I have seen in game.I think flair is more connecting to the technical attributes than creativity... I mean a player with high flair must have the required technical attributes to execute flamboyant moves

that means a player with high flair but not too high creativity and decisions, he will play well if he is very good on his technical attributes, cause most of the times his moves will be successful.

but a player with high flair and low technical attributes he will not play at his best even if he have a lot of creativity and decisions.

of course if he have both creativity + decisions + technical attributes is the best thing.

If you force me to choose between 2 players

1) High Flair + High Technical attributes + Low creativity - decisions

2)High Flair + High Creativity - decisions + Low technical attributes

I would choose player 1...

[BaYa]

what about temperament? higher is better?

[pleming]

Awesome thread. Thanks Cleon... So if I were to go and do a player search, and I wanted to pick two stats in the three categories (tech/ment/phys), what would you all chose?

After reading this, I'm gonna go with my Everton save (haven't played it in a while and am looking to pick it up again for Rodwell's waning years- I think he's 33 now...) But I want to play a 3-6-1 (3 CB's, 2 DM's, 2 WM's, 2 AM's and a ST)... just a whim, really, but I'm looking to play a sort of total football style- my plan is to make sure as many of my 10 outfield players have at least 11's in every category... I plan to keep my instructions pretty generic, and give them LOADS of creative freedom to make good decisions...

So back to the original post- I'm only looking for players now with good (around 13-14 for my squad at this point in time- we've slid back to the 5-8 zone after a few years challenging for league titles) ratings in the following... Technique, Anticipation, Concentration, Decisions, Positioning, Teamwork, Work Rate and Stamina... I'm not concerned with too much else- anything on top of those 13-14's will be gravy... I'll let you know how it's turning out.

Thanks again- nothing better than getting hooked on a post like this when I'm just about to go to bed and it keeps me up for another 3-4 hours playing.

[cezar.sl]

About Flair & Creativity.

As some have said, Creativity finds opportunities and Flair takes them. But I think Decisions plays a part in this too.

Here's how I see it.

The player's Creativity finds multiple opportunities.

He rates them with his Decisions stat in two ways : chance of success and tactical gain.

After this, also with his Decisions stat, he eliminates those choices that are too risky or give too little tactical gain. Anticipation and Concentration might also play a part here.

Now the Flair stat comes into play. It takes the remaining possibilities and chooses the one with the most gain.

[RT--]

I have a slightly different take, cezar (though I could be completely wrong). I think low flair and creativity limit the number of potential options that a player considers.

Consider a freeze-frame of a midfield player with the ball at his feet, 30 yards from goal in the middle of the pitch. He obviously has a huge number of options, but for simplicity's sake, let's say his potential choices are:

a) short backwards pass

b) short sideways pass

c) long forward pass

d) simple long shot

e) curled long shot

f) dribble with the ball

If he has low creativity, he may not 'see' the long forward pass at all, so has one fewer option to choose between. Similarly, if he has low flair, he won't even consider the curled long shot as an option.

Factors such as mentality, preferred moves, footednes, basic player instructions (long shots, run with ball, passing style) and his decision-making will then be used to influence which of the remaining options he's likely to choose.

[dcu223]

For one of the Old FM's (I forget which) i would buy according to the following attributes :

GK - Agility, Reflexes, Handling

Def - Positioning, Tackling, Marking

Mid - Passing, Creativity, Flair

For - Finishing, Heading, Off the Ball.

Now for that particular version (I think it was one of the last CM) i could overachieve with any team and ultimiatley take them to the Premiership.

For the FM's ive tried to create something similar all without success.

So - If you were buying GK, Def, Mid and Forwards according to attributes what would you choose.

Im sure that everybody will have a different outlook on this..

[Jhemo]

I think corner ability is unnecesarry, it's very relative to crossing...

[Cleon]

I've not forgotten about this, I've just been extremely busy. I will be posting some new stuff up in the next 2 weeks

[noikeee]

Good read for a slow morning at work. Here's some doubts I have about it though:

* Agility - i thought this was an essential attribute for goalkeepers (tied-in to reflexes), but you only mention it vaguely?

* Concentration - I'm surprised to find concentration talked about in the analysis of an attacking build-up. I guess it makes some sense, but I was under the impression that it was only about avoiding brain-fades defensively?

* Technique - Might have been on some older FM versions, before first touch was introduced as an attribute, but I'm pretty certain that technique was mostly about controlling the ball at speed. Not necessarily when dribbling an opponent player (because there's already an attribute for that), but more for when a player has some space ahead of him and he wants to run onto it. A winger lacking technique might accidentally let the ball run past the byline, for example. I wasn't aware it was also about performing difficult passes with precision?

* Flair - I'm pretty certain this is more about the ability to think of unusual, eccentric attacking solutions. And by that I mean backheel passes, chips over the keeper, first time/volley/acrobatic shots, passes/crosses/shots with the outside of the foot, curled shots, shots from impossible angles, etc... Think Matthew Le Tissier as the role model for a player with 20 at flair... It differs from creativity because creativity is more about seeing difficult passing lines for through balls - Xavi and Sneijder are better examples for outstanding players at creativity, but they're not that great in terms of flair.

And this forum sucks, I've written this large post already before but it was deleted because I wasn't logged in anymore when clicked "post reply"...

[Beardeye]

Good read for a slow morning at work.

Ha ha- glad im not the only one. employer blocks facebook and gmail but not SI forums!

Back on topic- great thread- I had always thought that determination only affected motivation- i.e if you are 2-0 down a player with high determination wont give up, or may become more motivated.

However seeing this (and the fact that it is highilghted by the tactics creator for certain roles) has opened my eyes to its effect on other aspects of player performance- determined runs, or determination to win a 50/50 ball etc.

[Lord_Valmyre]

Hello from Greece.

As far as i am aware of, height determines if he needs to jump but adds nothing to the height he will reach if jump. For example, if we take two players, the first 1.6m and jumping 18 and the second 1.9m and jumping 18 if they both decide to jump will reach exactly the same height. Difference is that tall player may not have to jump all the time and propably taking the risk of a bad timed jump and errors rooting from this.

Would you suggest that height does something more than this? Could it for insance define the path of the ball, for example a tall player tends to head the ball over the horizontal bar more often than a short one etc...

[Cleon]

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/238682-Explanation-of-the-Impact-of-Player-Attributes-During-Match-Play-*Updated-for-FM11*

This is the link to the new thread