Is luck deciding?

I am beginning to think that you can make good tactics in this game, but it doesn't matter cause luck is the deciding factor that is more important than anything in this game. I am dominating every game, have a lot of very good chances every game, sometimes three or four clear cut chances. In my first three matches I only got one point.

I outplayed and won almost all of my friendlies with Ajax against mid-table teams from Spain and Italy. Not too bad I thought. Then in my first match, I outplayed title favourites PSV a whole match at home, scored, then missed chance after chance (three times against the woodwork). One of my players even managed to go clear to the goalie from the right wing and from around eleven metres, he blasted straight to the left side-line. Of course the attackers of the opponent picked up two panic clearances and scored twice. Okay, that could happen once.

My second match was away against Ado, a team which is not very good. I controlled the game, maybe didn't get too many chances, but there were three which surely should have been in the back of the net. After an hour, they were reduced to ten men after a very bad tackle from behind. I thought, now will be my time. I think that the key highlights were almost the same as watching a whole match from that moment on. I saw one after another chance which most amateur players would have converted, but maybe I have to be happy that my striker is already sold for €20M at the start of the game. I think he would have missed even if the goals had been from the left corner flag to the right corner flag.

I began to be a little frustrated and irritated. In FM 07 and FM 08, I had sometimes a losing streak. In those games I always had the idea that my tactic was rubbish because my team was playing bad, but this time certainly not. My third game was against Sivasspor in the UEFA cup. Not the best team of all. Again I was outplaying them, scored early before testing the quality of every part of the non-inside of the goal and the goalie. In the second half, of course they scored twice from panic clearances. The keeper kept making unbelievable saves (no I don't believe in the super goalie thing) and after the match, nobody could believe how I could loose despite having controlled the whole match.

I was really angry now and replayed (yes, cheated) the match twice. Both times with the same results. Even my assistant manager can only tell me that we are dominating the game and that it is not truly reflected in the scoreline. Of course I can see that. The most irritating is that even he has nothing to tell me about errors in my tactics, players that don't do their job right or any other thing that could help me to improve my tactics. Maybe it's the squad gelling thing that people mention but will a player miss so many clear cut chances because of that? I can tell you that I won the third replay. I didn't watch the 3d highlights that time, but again I was playing well.

I can't imagine what I am doing wrong. The game doesn't state that there are flaws in my tactic. The match engine doesn't reflect that there are flaws in my tactic. I don't have the strongest squad in the world, but I feel that I should have won at least 2 out of those 3 matches. I don't know if I can motivate myself to play on, but I am curious if those 3 matches are incidents or that this is normal. It is my first serious game on FM 09, so I have no comparison. If the next 3 matches are going the same way, I am starting to think that luck (read what the AI wants) is a deciding factor because playing well and creating a lot of very good chances doesn't deserve to be punished time after time with undeserved and almost impossible losses. Players with a non-human manager seems to be more effective when they have the ball. Are there any of you out there that have experienced the same, or does the game hate me? I have played since cm2 but I have to say that I'm enjoying the last games less. I hope FM 09 won't be the last for me in the series, but I am not too sure about that.

The games a mess mate its not your tactics its a bug

Well I hope it isn't.

I'm starting to feel that this game is unwinnable. I'm really not a stupid guy, I live and breathe football and I'm qualified to a postgraduate level. This game is so hard though, I don't mind a challenge but nothing seems to consistently work.

I wish there were some bog standard formations that just work out the box, the value of tactics in this game is overrated compared to having quality personnel.

I definitely agree i think this game is way too hard.

I think you're spot on. I have tried several tactics from these forums, some of my own and the presets. They all end up the same way. I dominate pre-season lulling me into a false sense of security only for me to get ripped apart when the competitive season starts.

I'm now at the stage that I can no longer stomach the game. There is very little in-game feedback to tell me where i'm going wrong. To visibly horse a team and lose most games is perhaps the most infuriating experience i've had. SI have needed a tactical overhaul for a long time and this version has highlighted it to the masses. The sliders in their current form are no longer adequate for us to interface with the match engine. We need something more intuitive.

I think you're spot on. I have tried several tactics from these forums, some of my own and the presets. They all end up the same way. I dominate pre-season lulling me into a false sense of security only for me to get ripped apart when the competitive season starts.

I'm now at the stage that I can no longer stomach the game. There is very little in-game feedback to tell me where i'm going wrong. To visibly horse a team and lose most games is perhaps the most infuriating experience i've had. SI have needed a tactical overhaul for a long time and this version has highlighted it to the masses. The sliders in their current form are no longer adequate for us to interface with the match engine. We need something more intuitive.

Great post, really did a good job there of putting into words what I feel has been building in my mind for some time now. Tactics aside this is a really good game, shame the tactical shambles overrides the rest of it.

Agreed, final straw just now, Chlsea beat me 2-0 and they had CCC.

Fed up that my realistic dominating tactics fron 2008 dont work.

It seems the only way to wein is to have some dumb unrealistic formation

I play a bog standard 4-4-2 with Newcastle United in the Premier League. I have one MCd and one MCa. I have a tall striker dropping deep to pick up the ball and play it through to Owen or Martin. I am at Xmas in my first season, top of the table. No signing, just the standard Necastle squad (I disabled transfers in the first window). I read the Tactical Theorems and Frameworks document, cover to cover, twice after several bad starts to the game with different teams. I then applied some of the ideas to the game and it worked perfectly. You should give it a try. I have two different tactics for home and away. I have beaten Chelsea 0-2 at the Bridge, Liverpool 1-2 at Anfield and consistently beaten teams around me. I'd offer to upload my tactics, but I'm in work, and I'm flying on holiday afterward, so I can't do that right now.

But go give the tactical theorms a look. You won't regret it.

If you don't understand why you are moving sliders, then it will indeed be down to luck. Try and think it through, there should be a reason why you are choosing direct passing over short.

Example, a team with better players than you uses short passing through the middle. You don't really want to be pressing for the ball much as your players will just tire as they pass the easy ball about. Offside trap wont really work as there wont be time for my defenders to see whats coming, so I might as well defend deep. I'd need to counter attack from a defensive position, so let's get it to my pacey wingers by going through both flanks and feeding them direct balls.....etc etc etc

Read your scout reports (I have tried different scouts, they seem to come up with the same report regardless of their stats, I even tried my best and worst scouts at the same time. Always same apart from one time when they identified a different dangerman). Whatever the reports say is an indication how you should approach the game.

Every game I do the team talk, then I go into the tactics screen and do a bit of tweaking. Takes all of 10 seconds per match (would be great for future versions to have the scout report viewable on this screen, also a button to accept the assmans suggestions for opposition instructions).

I agree. Also, in relation to sliders, if your players aren't performing,　look at the sliders of the other players. For example, I could not get Michael Owen to score a goal, but by moving his strike partner's slider down one notch (which resulted in him playing a little deeper) it created the room for Owen to pick up on the through ball being sent his way and score!

To me it sounds like your midfield and defence is setup properly, but your possibly not got the settings right for your forwards. What kind of formation are you playing?

I am beginning to think that you can make good tactics in this game, but it doesn't matter cause luck is the deciding factor that is more important than anything in this game. I am dominating every game, have a lot of very good chances every game, sometimes three or four clear cut chances. In my first three matches I only got one point.

I outplayed and won almost all of my friendlies with Ajax against mid-table teams from Spain and Italy. Not too bad I thought. Then in my first match, I outplayed title favourites PSV a whole match at home, scored, then missed chance after chance (three times against the woodwork). One of my players even managed to go clear to the goalie from the right wing and from around eleven metres, he blasted straight to the left side-line. Of course the attackers of the opponent picked up two panic clearances and scored twice. Okay, that could happen once.

My second match was away against Ado, a team which is not very good. I controlled the game, maybe didn't get too many chances, but there were three which surely should have been in the back of the net. After an hour, they were reduced to ten men after a very bad tackle from behind. I thought, now will be my time. I think that the key highlights were almost the same as watching a whole match from that moment on. I saw one after another chance which most amateur players would have converted, but maybe I have to be happy that my striker is already sold for €20M at the start of the game. I think he would have missed even if the goals had been from the left corner flag to the right corner flag.

I began to be a little frustrated and irritated. In FM 07 and FM 08, I had sometimes a losing streak. In those games I always had the idea that my tactic was rubbish because my team was playing bad, but this time certainly not. My third game was against Sivasspor in the UEFA cup. Not the best team of all. Again I was outplaying them, scored early before testing the quality of every part of the non-inside of the goal and the goalie. In the second half, of course they scored twice from panic clearances. The keeper kept making unbelievable saves (no I don't believe in the super goalie thing) and after the match, nobody could believe how I could loose despite having controlled the whole match.

I was really angry now and replayed (yes, cheated) the match twice. Both times with the same results. Even my assistant manager can only tell me that we are dominating the game and that it is not truly reflected in the scoreline. Of course I can see that. The most irritating is that even he has nothing to tell me about errors in my tactics, players that don't do their job right or any other thing that could help me to improve my tactics. Maybe it's the squad gelling thing that people mention but will a player miss so many clear cut chances because of that? I can tell you that I won the third replay. I didn't watch the 3d highlights that time, but again I was playing well.

I can't imagine what I am doing wrong. The game doesn't state that there are flaws in my tactic. The match engine doesn't reflect that there are flaws in my tactic. I don't have the strongest squad in the world, but I feel that I should have won at least 2 out of those 3 matches. I don't know if I can motivate myself to play on, but I am curious if those 3 matches are incidents or that this is normal. It is my first serious game on FM 09, so I have no comparison. If the next 3 matches are going the same way, I am starting to think that luck (read what the AI wants) is a deciding factor because playing well and creating a lot of very good chances doesn't deserve to be punished time after time with undeserved and almost impossible losses. Players with a non-human manager seems to be more effective when they have the ball. Are there any of you out there that have experienced the same, or does the game hate me? I have played since cm2 but I have to say that I'm enjoying the last games less. I hope FM 09 won't be the last for me in the series, but I am not too sure about that.

This is a very good post and although i'm fairing much better than yourself, the issues you bring up are nevertheless poignant.

First of all, its blatantly noticeable that the Human manager generally has to create a myriad of chances before slotting one home, whilst the AI often needs just one and when they get it, its almost a guaranteed goal, no matter how poor the player with the opportunity.

Then when you look even closer it gets worse, you will notice your own chances are a result of superior build up play, based on your tactical instructions, whilst the AI simply waits for inevitable missed interceptions and schoolboy errors from your defenders, which becomes 10X more frustrating if/when you have World Class players and your up against AI players who are massively poorer, yet seldom if ever make a mistake?

When you add all that to other things like, when the AI goes more attacking to get back into a game, why is it that despite my MC's having better strength, determination, bravery etc, etc, suddenly the much poorer AI MC's suddenly start winning all the 50/50 balls?

Also, why is it that when WE have the obviously much better side, is it that it is US that have generally have to adjust our tactics accordingly to suit the opposition and not the other way around?

As for not knowing what we are doing wrong tactically? when i heard there was going to be Ass Man feedback during a game, i thought "great" surely this is where we will finally hear feedback that will make us aware of out tactical deficiencies, even if he was to say things like "Its just not looking like our day today" or "the opposition are collectively playing above themselves" at least then you are satisfied that you have not just sent the players out on the pitch with the dumbest instructions imaginable.

Instead you get your Ass Man telling you how bad a player is playing when he has by far the best rating of any of the 22 players on the field????????

Dont even get me started on the pointlessness of many/if not all of the new features(and most of the old ones!)

If by luck you mean randomness, than yes, I'd say it's the deciding factor. Some games your defenders will miss an excessive amount of easy interceptions, some games your keeper will make blatant errors, some games the opposition keep is unbeatable, some games your strikers can't finish 10 wide open chances, some games your strikers score every half chance, some games your wingers will consistently beat strong defenders, some games your winger can't get past slow clumsy defenders, etc. It's all so random, it often leaves you wondering whether a change of tactics would've been the solution or your team was just so inept on the day it wouldn't have made a difference. Often you'll change tactics in the game but it doesn't have the desired effect at all, like trying to play more possession, attacking football and getting dominated or going more defensive and watching your team string together loads of passes and fluid attacking moves. So random.

I'm starting to feel that this game is unwinnable. I'm really not a stupid guy, I live and breathe football and I'm qualified to a postgraduate level. This game is so hard though, I don't mind a challenge but nothing seems to consistently work.

I wish there were some bog standard formations that just work out the box, the value of tactics in this game is overrated compared to having quality personnel.

i completely agree... i made a few tactics, downloaded a few, but none of them was able to work consistently... i was particularly pleased with one of my own, it was a very attacking tactic, i scored a lot, for the first time in FM09 i got the newspapers to say "got his players firing", but after about fifteen games this one also died... i scored one goal in seven games and then had to chang it... after ruining my chance of a title challenge...

This is a very good post and although i'm fairing much better than yourself, the issues you bring up are nevertheless poignant.

First of all, its blatantly noticeable that the Human manager generally has to create a myriad of chances before slotting one home, whilst the AI often needs just one and when they get it, its almost a guaranteed goal, no matter how poor the player with the opportunity.

Then when you look even closer it gets worse, you will notice your own chances are a result of superior build up play, based on your tactical instructions, whilst the AI simply waits for inevitable missed interceptions and schoolboy errors from your defenders, which becomes 10X more frustrating if/when you have World Class players and your up against AI players who are massively poorer, yet seldom if ever make a mistake?

When you add all that to other things like, when the AI goes more attacking to get back into a game, why is it that despite my MC's having better strength, determination, bravery etc, etc, suddenly the much poorer AI MC's suddenly start winning all the 50/50 balls?

Also, why is it that when WE have the obviously much better side, is it that it is US that have generally have to adjust our tactics accordingly to suit the opposition and not the other way around?

As for not knowing what we are doing wrong tactically? when i heard there was going to be Ass Man feedback during a game, i thought "great" surely this is where we will finally hear feedback that will make us aware of out tactical deficiencies, even if he was to say things like "Its just not looking like our day today" or "the opposition are collectively playing above themselves" at least then you are satisfied that you have not just sent the players out on the pitch with the dumbest instructions imaginable.

Instead you get your Ass Man telling you how bad a player is playing when he has by far the best rating of any of the 22 players on the field????????

Dont even get me started on the pointlessness of many/if not all of the new features(and most of the old ones!)

Great post. Completely agree with the bolded part. Do you think that Barca change their tactics each game according to their opponents? They have their style, and play their style no matter what. They are not as attacking minded in away games as they are home, but that's about it, and that's the way it should be with the big teams in the game...

I play a bog standard 4-4-2 with Newcastle United in the Premier League. I have one MCd and one MCa. I have a tall striker dropping deep to pick up the ball and play it through to Owen or Martin. I am at Xmas in my first season, top of the table. No signing, just the standard Necastle squad (I disabled transfers in the first window). I read the Tactical Theorems and Frameworks document, cover to cover, twice after several bad starts to the game with different teams. I then applied some of the ideas to the game and it worked perfectly. You should give it a try. I have two different tactics for home and away. I have beaten Chelsea 0-2 at the Bridge, Liverpool 1-2 at Anfield and consistently beaten teams around me. I'd offer to upload my tactics, but I'm in work, and I'm flying on holiday afterward, so I can't do that right now.

But go give the tactical theorms a look. You won't regret it.

Read TTF, made a tactic, worked fairly well for about ten-fifteen games and then collapsed... made a different tactic, with global settings mostly, going on purpose against what TTF said, got better results, more goals, but, again, after 10-15 games it was over... it's incredibly unrealistic that a football team can be read so quickly... and, i mean, it's not all about the tactics, everybody knows how barcelona will play, but their players are what makes their tactic work... i had great players but practically couldn't score for seven games, then changed to a new tactic and my striker, who was getting 5.8 for the past seven games scored a hattrick...

now, to be able to have some consistency, i change about 4-5 tactics during a season... how realistic is that?

Great post. Completely agree with the bolded part. Do you think that Barca change their tactics each game according to their opponents? They have their style, and play their style no matter what. They are not as attacking minded in away games as they are home, but that's about it, and that's the way it should be with the big teams in the game...

Well... i'm not so sure. I am Chelsea. I had a game before this but that bombed due to me trying just one tactic every single match. It will not work. It just wont. What I have done is created a few pre-made tactics and saved them: I have my home, my away against a world-class team, I have my away against a relegation battler, and I have an away against a mid table side. And a all out attack and last 20minutes 1 up tactic. I use the away ones for home matches often too... It's going pretty well for me, top of the leauge. Maybe some of you should try something like I have done. Mine arnt great but if u want I could upload them for you.

i completely agree... i made a few tactics, downloaded a few, but none of them was able to work consistently... i was particularly pleased with one of my own, it was a very attacking tactic, i scored a lot, for the first time in FM09 i got the newspapers to say "got his players firing", but after about fifteen games this one also died... i scored one goal in seven games and then had to chang it... after ruining my chance of a title challenge...

That's because IT'S NOT YOUR TACTICS! It's morale, gelling, bad team talks, bad luck, bad form, complacency, bad motivation, teams playing more defensively against you, everything BUT your tactics.

The problem I find now is that there are so many variables within the tactical options that at times it can be mind boggling to try and establish where your going wrong. I mean to be honest even from the very first CM years ago the game has always been about finding the 'super tactics' or certainly ones that work considerbly better than the rest.

In a way that is stil the case in the current FM, the difference being that we're not only facing the challenge of creating the best tactic available within the game, we now have to create a perfect tactic for all different opposition and styles of play. Added to that the number of tactical options, and its just so difficult to create a tactic for every kind of opposition etc, particularly if you haven't got hour upon hour for trial and error.

All of this we have to try and establish using 'key highlights' which makes it very difficult to see where your going wrong and thus leads generally to frustration.

Yes, I totally agree.

I'm a real veteran to this game series and must say that I am getting annoyed with how hard it has become to analyze and adjust your own tactics.

Like some others have pointed out already; it's too much about the tactics and too less about the quality of the players. Don't get me wrong here, I do want the tactics to matter, just in a more basic way.

See, I'm playing this game to have fun and it's not as entertaining nowadays when I'm managing a great team and find myself struggling at home against poor teams. On the paper I'm far superior, but still the game stats often show an even contest.

If a team is much better (by that I mean the quality of the players) then the tactics shouldn't be that important. The greater side will much likely dominate the game and often win it. Sure, once in a while, they will suffer a loss due to counter attacks or such, but still they will dominate the game.

And sure, it might be my tactics. All versions of them. I've tried many different approaches (i.e tactics) and the struggling has always been there, sad to say. But if the tactics are this hard to get right, then I feel it's boring. Only gets me frustrated. The quality of the players must be more important than now

And finally, I want to add how I'm doing; I'm playing with Valle del Giovanco who started out in the Italian serie C. In my fourth season I'm in second place of serie B, thus I'm performing rather good. Still I'm struggling game after game, even at home despite seeing even pre-match odds and me being the superior side quality-wise.

Bog standard tactics should work to a better standard than they currently do. Then It's up to us to maybe give ourselves the edge and to achieve more by creating more indepth tactics. It's so frustrating when you a top side at home playing a basic 4 4 2 with instructions you've put together using common sense and a basic footballing knowledge, only to find your team getting outplayed by an awful team playing like Brazil!

The indepth tactical options should be there to give us the option of getting maybe 15-20% extra out of a team, not as is seems at the moment more like 50% of how successful we can be.

Two abo****e top class posts. Well constructed and full of good points that I totally agree with.

That's because IT'S NOT YOUR TACTICS! It's morale, gelling, bad team talks, bad luck, bad form, complacency, bad motivation, teams playing more defensively against you, everything BUT your tactics.

Well I don't agree with you. In my opinion it doesn't matter if you'll use your own tactic or pick one from the forum. I agree that it is important that you have the right players for a tactic. I have made my own tactics in the past and I have used tactics made by others. I have read the TTF document, so I think I do know how to make a good tactic. Problem is the time I have available cause I feel making tactics is very time consuming.

But it's not the point of my post if it is my own tactic or one made by someone else. I'm playing well, my morale is (or was ) suberb, my team talks are okay so what's the problem? I'm getting so much really good chances so I feel there is something else wrong in my game (and looking at the posts before, not only in my game). I understand the squad gelling issue, but why should my players play really well, but begin to shake when they are in front of the opponent's goalie? I know I can start a game and have some success, but something isn't feeling good at the ME.

You could have Torres, you could have Messi, you could have Ferdinand, you could have Buffon...

It doesn't matter though.

If the Opposition know what your tactics are, they will get points from you.

Doesn't seem quite right.

"In my opinion it doesn't matter if you'll use your own tactic or pick one from the forum."

Well, you're basically agreeing with me then... Most balanced and well thought out tactics will work well enough, and then you can make adjustments if you're for example under heavy pressure in a match. I disagree with people who say tactics are so much more important now and everything else are just details. That's exactly the opposite of my impression.

I don't know why you're not scoring. SI aren't releasing any info on how the game works, so we can only speculate. Maybe it's gelling. Did you buy new attackers? Did you check if they fit in with the rest of the squad and speak the language? Maybe team talks or maybe you're too optimistic at the press conferances leading to complacency... if a striker is distracted, not settled in, not totally focused and/or is taking lightly on the task, I can understand how he can miss many obvious chances. But of course, I'm only speculating. I've had runs of games I really should have won, but didn't, but it goes the other way too. I have no idea how I managed to win my last game against Celtic in the Euro Cup, they had tons of CCCs but scored none. That's how it is sometimes, you just have to get through it and try to improve on all the little details. For example, check the morale of all players and target anyone who's not superb or very good with criticism/praise of recent performances. If you do it right, they'll go straight to superb.

Just have patience (give yourself several seasons), build a team that works well together, try to look at all the pieces in the puzzle and how they fit together. There are potentially many things that can upset the balance in the team. That's my take on it, but like I've already repeated, I don't really know how SI programmed their game. I'm just sure that there's a lot more to it than just tactics.

Just to add... I completely agree that there are many oddities in the match engine. For example, if you're having horrible odds, you know you can just go "pressure is off" and magically play like Brazil. Then you have great odds against an inferior team in your next home game and gets out-attacked in the same fashion. It's just very odd...

I totally agree with this post. Everything about this game is great apart from when i get to playing the match. What angers me is:-

1) General it seems that my fullback can't get within five yards of the ai winger. Whether his on man-marking or zonal e.g, a winger with 12 for dribbling runs down my left hand side, my fullback just moves up the pitch so the opposition winger with 11 for crossing can produce that perfect cross. Why?

2) I've seen this 3 times, the ai striker runs with the ball into my area from the right hand side. The centreback spots this, busts a gut to get back into the penalty area only to completely stop running so the the striker has a clear shot at goal. Why?

What has tactics got to do with it?

Not much. I guess it was decided by the ME calculations that the defender was going to lose that duel, and the visual representation of it was rubbish. It just had to make it happen somehow! It looks stupid, but it's a bit easier to live with if you look at it that way...

I'm starting to feel that this game is unwinnable. I'm really not a stupid guy, I live and breathe football and I'm qualified to a postgraduate level. This game is so hard though, I don't mind a challenge but nothing seems to consistently work.

I wish there were some bog standard formations that just work out the box, the value of tactics in this game is overrated compared to having quality personnel.

I agree with what your saying, To have to get slider dead right so your team dont play like headless chickens etc is mental, IRL players don't perform or fail because of slider failure..

If morale is superb and you have the best 11 players in the league, providing a team playing a 4-5-1 against your 4-4-2 dont get more possesion in midfield you should win, but with all the slider lumber you will prob lose 4-3 after beeing 3-0 up..

i dont spend any time doing the thing's manager should be doing, scouting, training, contracts, finances, i spend all my time reading tactic helps from this board so when i impliment them i get beat even more..

game doesn't have no where near as much addictivness as other titles including the old CM series..

But while you got the well respected SI helpers and tactic geeks, don't think they will ever change..

This game is not simple common sence tactics.. tactically i only give this game 2 out of 10.

I think by the sounds of it, loads of players have different experiences. For example, I managed to get Cheltenham promoted in the first season with no signings, now even with a load of luck, the lack of quality in the side should have shone through eventually, but it didn't. The only thing I can put it down to is the tactics, team talks and press conferences I gave. In this respect I believe the game to be quite realistic, because you always get a team punching above their weight, due to the way they play and the way the manager motivates them.

So in closing, yes, the quality of your personnel is important, but if you get the tactics right, and say the right things in etam talks and press conferences, you can get your team playing well, even if they aren't that great

Yes gaz_man, you're right. We all want that type of underdog overachieving, nothing wrong with that. As I said, Im managing one of those teams myself. The thing is that the sliders are too sensitive, it's so easy to not succeed with your tactics despite having a team full of great players. As you say, poor teams will (and should) every now and then surprise everyone, but in general we do see the team with the quality players win most of their games.

Now, as I've said before I think the tactics must matter. I also believe most managers on this forum agrees with me. But as some people have mentioned, the sliders should not have to be set "dead on". Perfection is not needed irl when AC Milan is playing Frosinone at home.

Yes gaz_man, you're right. We all want that type of underdog overachieving, nothing wrong with that. As I said, Im managing one of those teams myself. The thing is that the sliders are too sensitive, it's so easy to not succeed with your tactics despite having a team full of great players. As you say, poor teams will (and should) every now and then surprise everyone, but in general we do see the team with the quality players win most of their games.

Now, as I've said before I think the tactics must matter. I also believe most managers on this forum agrees with me. But as some people have mentioned, the sliders should not have to be set "dead on". Perfection is not needed irl when AC Milan is playing Frosinone at home.

I agree...

The sliders are great for making a tactic, but as you say, they are way too sensitive - not many gamers can tweak their tactics totally right. 20 notches for every slider is way too much! As it is now making a decent tactic you have to be either lucky or a tactical nerd... Thats my opinion...

Haven't read anything other than topic, but I think luck is and should always be a part of the game - since it often has a huge impact IRL

sure luck has a degree of what goes on in this game but lets get real....there are no super tactics like diablo which take a team from the lowest league to winning the champions league in a few short seasons.....playing with the big teams is going to get you more success as in real life (i play as my fave team arsenal)shocks happen as in real life.....now you need to get a realistic tactic( by which i mean dont try to play like arsenal,manutd etc if you are crewe or darlington or teams like that). take note of your assistants, team talks need to be right, use opposition instructions to your advantage and so on.....the game is evolving and will have bugs and flaws... but there is a simple solution to all those not happy with it....put it away and go back to whatever version you felt happiest with....i on the other hand will keep going and when my team hits its inevitable slump adjust my tactics to get out of it...if that doesnt happen then im sure i will get sacked and have to go start again

In my humble and frustrated opinion, at some point during the last couple of years, FM simply forgot it was supposed to be a game and decided to start handing out harsh reality to all of us day-dreaming football-manager-wanna-bes like taking a very unforgiving hammer to our heads - and charging for it. Apparently the new point of FM is not to "provide entertainment or amusement" (www.answers.com, s.v. game) , but instead to remind us that we are, in fact, not real football managers and would fail miserably if we one day got the chance to boot the Wengers and Fergusons out of their clubs, show up in their place the following day, take in charge the ever-so-humble-and-willing troops and command them in battle with the "expertise" we-ve gotten from yelling at players on TV all our lives. I, personally, don't really care for a daily reminder of how I am, in fact, not a capable football manager in real life, since I pretty much already knew that and ever since I was a not so ambitious and able child have been forced - and, actually, quite happy - to fullfil my dreams through games. To take that away from me is, well, like taking candy from a baby and since I paid for the damned candy I'd like to have it back, please.

In my humble and frustrated opinion, at some point during the last couple of years, FM simply forgot it was supposed to be a game and decided to start handing out harsh reality to all of us day-dreaming football-manager-wanna-bes like taking a very unforgiving hammer to our heads - and charging for it. Apparently the new point of FM is not to "provide entertainment or amusement" (www.answers.com, s.v. game) , but instead to remind us that we are, in fact, not real football managers and would fail miserably if we one day got the chance to boot the Wengers and Fergusons out of their clubs, show up in their place the following day, take in charge the ever-so-humble-and-willing troops and command them in battle with the "expertise" we-ve gotten from yelling at players on TV all our lives. I, personally, don't really care for a daily reminder of how I am, in fact, not a capable football manager in real life, since I pretty much already knew that and ever since I was a not so ambitious and able child have been forced - and, actually, quite happy - to fullfil my dreams through games. To take that away from me is, well, like taking candy from a baby and since I paid for the damned candy I'd like to have it back, please.

imo that would happen if SI decide to polish current features like team talks, training, media and player interaction and stop adding new ones for verison or two. equally important would be a complete overhaul of tactical system.

another thing i'd like is some ME consistancy eventhough i like and understand it needs to evolve. it changes too much, even from patch to patch, with every new one it's like playing a completly new game. sometimes it feels like we're only trying to exploit ME, long shots and poor FB's marking in 910, trough balls in 920...

I played a game 10 times this afternoon by saving and reloading to try out some tactics I was making ..

The first 5 times I didnt change the tactic at all - testing for consistency.

We won 3-0, lost 3-0 and had every combination of results inbetween.

If thats not random, what is?

-edit- I didnt intend this to be a whinge. In fact its not hard to appreciate the complexity of the match engine with such wildly different results: individual player errors or form determine how it goes. What bugs me and others is the lack of consistency ..

In my humble and frustrated opinion, at some point during the last couple of years, FM simply forgot it was supposed to be a game and decided to start handing out harsh reality to all of us day-dreaming football-manager-wanna-bes like taking a very unforgiving hammer to our heads - and charging for it. Apparently the new point of FM is not to "provide entertainment or amusement" (www.answers.com, s.v. game) , but instead to remind us that we are, in fact, not real football managers and would fail miserably if we one day got the chance to boot the Wengers and Fergusons out of their clubs, show up in their place the following day, take in charge the ever-so-humble-and-willing troops and command them in battle with the "expertise" we-ve gotten from yelling at players on TV all our lives. I, personally, don't really care for a daily reminder of how I am, in fact, not a capable football manager in real life, since I pretty much already knew that and ever since I was a not so ambitious and able child have been forced - and, actually, quite happy - to fullfil my dreams through games. To take that away from me is, well, like taking candy from a baby and since I paid for the damned candy I'd like to have it back, please.

I agree with this post except to the extent that it implies, as Mitja pointed out, that the current version of the game can be regarded as "realistic" or an emulation of what it is like to be a real life football manager. For the game to be more realistic, there needs to be:

1) An overhaul of the training module, adopting aspects of the activity based training from older incarnations

2) A closer (or for a start, some) interaction between training and tactics.

3) A set piece designer as part of the new training module.

4) The reintroduction of wibble/wobble, both within the tactical module and training module.

Of course the difficulty of implementing the above is that currently the modules are developed independently, and so the version which eventually introduces these features will represent a revolution rather than evolution. But lets be honest here. There have not been many positive and fun new features (as opposed to repetitive and boring features such as media interaction and "team talks") introduced in the last 7 or so years. I count 2 "new" features - 2d match engine and 3d match engine. 7 years is surely a long time in gaming terms, particularly for a game that is released every year.

Judging by the versions that have been recently churned out, I believe that the SI bigwigs have forgotten or ignored some facts over the last 7 years or so. First has been mentioned by this poster. This is supposed to be a "game". Secondly, the main strength of the championship manager series and what made it what it is today (or was 7 years ago), and what created its massive fanbase and following, is purely the comprehensiveness of its player database. That of course is moreso the result of the hard work of FM researchers than the programming per se. Thirdly, having only one way to succeed - i.e. by reading the so call TTF document and creating a tactical "set" of 6 tactics, to be applied according to the pre-match odds is not realism, but more importantly it is not fun. Fourthly, if the game introduced an "easy" difficulty option whereby you could get reasonable results with the players you have by not "tweaking" and worrying about "reranking" an so on, most players, including veteran fans of the series who were drawn to its original simplicity, would choose that option, and would have much more fun and play individual saves for many more seasons. That is not to say that difficulty levels should necessarily be introduced, but it does say something about the direction which the series has been heading.

my 2 cents.

In the long run, no.

In some games, yes.

The way i tend to work it out is like this..

How many points in a season do i gain through luck - 1 or 2

How many points in a season do i drop through AI luck - 15 to 25

I remember certain people promising that the game would at least "APPEAR" much fairer in FM09, but it is absolutely NO different to previous versions.

Hammer

The arrows were blamed for FM08 issues, however, I tested many non farrow tactics in FM08 and non farrow tactics had same issues. There were less crazy moments when crazy arrows were not used.

With the 9.2 patch I am concerned in 2nd half of season drop in form losing or drawing games against the run of play, but again the AI strikers appear more clinical and players like Elmander can run rings round a top quality defence.

Hammer

The arrows were blamed for FM08 issues, however, I tested many non farrow tactics in FM08 and non farrow tactics had same issues. There were less crazy moments when crazy arrows were not used.

With the 9.2 patch I am concerned in 2nd half of season drop in form losing or drawing games against the run of play, but again the AI strikers appear more clinical and players like Elmander can run rings round a top quality defence.

That's the point knap !! I played 21 matches from 42 league games and I was 3rd (45 pts), now I played 2 matches from second round and what? I lost at home and drew away game, this is ridicolous. I tried to change tactic (I saved game before) and nothing changed, still poor results, tried to use other players, nothing.

Hammer

The arrows were blamed for FM08 issues, however, I tested many non farrow tactics in FM08 and non farrow tactics had same issues. There were less crazy moments when crazy arrows were not used.

With the 9.2 patch I am concerned in 2nd half of season drop in form losing or drawing games against the run of play, but again the AI strikers appear more clinical and players like Elmander can run rings round a top quality defence.

Would you do me a favour and check the "leading scorers" in your division mate?

So far, EVERY game i have started, its the pacey players leading the charts by a long way, Agbonlahor, Martins, Miller etc, other people have found this to be the case also?

Pace, at least for the AI, has way too much impact in the game, mostly because it makes up for players other weaknesses.

Would you do me a favour and check the "leading scorers" in your division mate?

So far, EVERY game i have started, its the pacey players leading the charts by a long way, Agbonlahor, Martins, Miller etc, other people have found this to be the case also?

Pace, at least for the AI, has way too much impact in the game, mostly because it makes up for players other weaknesses.

I play in Liga Adelante:

Alex Geijo 18 (pace 11/acceleration 13)

Pablo Sanchez 15 (14/14)

Mate Bilic 14 (14/13)

Roberto Peragon 14 (16/14)

Cesar Diaz 13(14/15) <- mine one

...

Javier Acuna 11 (17/18)

so it doesn't seems to be so important =] they have decent pace and acceleration for my league and my fastest striker (15/16) scored nil in 5 matches

But I noticed that player with great pace, acceleration, agility (not so important), composure, finishing and going around keeper/lob keeper PPM seems to be goal machines

From my latest tactic being tested

I have found that when faced with the infuriating '20 shots to 1 syndrome' where my forwards hit the woodwork, miss from 2 yards, have the ball kicked off the line in front of them, have the opposition goalkeeper rated at 9.8, etc, etc, etc, a better idea than smashing the mouse with frustration is to, very simply, nick the overall team attacking mentality back one or possibly two clicks. Most of the time it seems to work for me - don't know why - may be just luck but, as I said, it seems to provide a solution a lot of the time. Anyone else found this?

You know, looking back at the time I first got a hold of a CM2 game, I can still remember what made it fun. It was fun to "get a football club" and have your favorites play in it. I used to do all kinds of weird combinations and choices just for the sake of having certain players on the field at the same time. Back then tactics, to me at least, were more about how many of my favorite players of each position did I want on the field than about having a brain-off with the AI. What ever happened to that? What was wrong with that?

This is a bit off-topic, I know, but think about it. Wouldn't it be great to get CM2 back, with updated databases and with the 3-D match-viewing feature. Admittedly, it wouldn't be such a complex game, but it would be a step in the right direction when considering the next instalment of the series.

You know, looking back at the time I first got a hold of a CM2 game, I can still remember what made it fun. It was fun to "get a football club" and have your favorites play in it. I used to do all kinds of weird combinations and choices just for the sake of having certain players on the field at the same time. Back then tactics, to me at least, were more about how many of my favorite players of each position did I want on the field than about having a brain-off with the AI. What ever happened to that? What was wrong with that?

This is a bit off-topic, I know, but think about it. Wouldn't it be great to get CM2 back, with updated databases and with the 3-D match-viewing feature. Admittedly, it wouldn't be such a complex game, but it would be a step in the right direction when considering the next instalment of the series.

So go and play CM2 =] No one will force you to play FM09 and I think most ppl don't want to use various tactics like 3-7-0 or whatever, this is Football Manager, it's simulation of real world and we want it to be realistic mate.

Loath, I'm with you on that one. I was also testing things around earlier like you did, now the game feels more like some sensitive old hag that we don't want to upset.

And Zikerik, I just wanna clearify that I dont wanna do crazy stuff like 3-7-0 or 1-1-8. Haha! But I'm afraid even to abandon my 4-4-2 and replace it with a 4-5-1 or 3-4-3... =o/

Loath, I'm with you on that one. I was also testing things around earlier like you did, now the game feels more like some sensitive old hag that we don't want to upset.

And Zikerik, I just wanna clearify that I dont wanna do crazy stuff like 3-7-0 or 1-1-8. Haha! But I'm afraid even to abandon my 4-4-2 and replace it with a 4-5-1 or 3-4-3... =o/

I just changed my tactic for 4-5-1 ;p Quite nice results here =] Just take a look:

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=85543

I won 2 away games 0:1 with great control over game and draw 2:2 at home after my player got sent off ;D

Yeah, as you probably know I'm active in that thread too. Wanna try that tactic out. =) Your link in there had a maximum of 10 downloads, which of course has been reached... so I can't access your tactics nor Code's in that thread.