Height & ME

I've read repeatedly that height is not calculated in the ME but that Jumping and Heading are. Can anyone explain to me how height can be ignored and say that a 5'6 defender can win a headball against Crouch just cause he has a higher stat for jumping? If it has to do with programming or to remove some ambiguity I understand, but I have a hard time believing that height has nothing to do with the ME.

Interesting post...

For my part I can't understand why the 3d doesn't represent player height either.

Height is factored in when deciding the jumping stat. So a 6ft player is more likely to have 20 than a 5'5 player.

Interesting post...

For my part I can't understand why the 3d doesn't represent player height either.

Maybe it's my eyes but I thought height was represented in the 3D match view. To me some players look like absolute giants, and others in comparison midgets. Anyone else got this or should I get my glasses prescription checked?

Height should give a player an advantage with getting to the ball, like the way it's currently calculated as Neji mentioned. Doesn't mean that Crouch can't be out jumped though. From what I've seen he's not actually that great at jumping, he just happens to be there. A defend with a bit of spring in his step could out jump him and win the ball as far as I'm concerned.

Maybe it's my eyes but I thought height was represented in the 3D match view. To me some players look like absolute giants, and others in comparison midgets. Anyone else got this or should I get my glasses prescription checked?

Height should give a player an advantage with getting to the ball, like the way it's currently calculated as Neji mentioned. Doesn't mean that Crouch can't be out jumped though. From what I've seen he's not actually that great at jumping, he just happens to be there. A defend with a bit of spring in his step could out jump him and win the ball as far as I'm concerned.

Yeah, when i played Marton Fulop at RB accidently i noticed because he was a lot bigger then my normal, right back.

Maybe it's my eyes but I thought height was represented in the 3D match view. To me some players look like absolute giants, and others in comparison midgets. Anyone else got this or should I get my glasses prescription checked?

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it is. I remember someone posting a pic of giant players after editing the height and weight stats.

Really?? Time to get my eyes checked then!

Height is represented in the 3-D match engine

The height data for players are purely cosmetic so is the representation in the 3-D match engine

Simply put height has no effect on any match engine

It's up to the researchers to give players a proper jumping value depending on their height as it is defined as being a combination of their height and jumping ability in the game

The heading attribute is a technical attribute has nothing to do with winning headers but more to do with what a player does with the ball after he wins the header so a player with 1 heading and 20 jumping could probably win most headers in the game but what he does with the ball after he wins it would most likely be hurrendous where as a player with 20 heading and 1 jumping would most likely never win a header but if he were ever to happen to find the ball anywhere near his head he'd do some great work with it

Height is factored in when deciding the jumping stat. So a 6ft player is more likely to have 20 than a 5'5 player.

Thanks, makes sense now at least height is included. So the ability to win a headball is still mainly based upon the jumping/heading stat, just the likelyhood of having a player with a stat of 20 is greater with height. One more quick question is there any other attributes that affect winning a headball other than those two and obviously bravery, e.g. balance, strength, anticipation?

Height is represented in the 3-D match engine

The height data for players are purely cosmetic so is the representation in the 3-D match engine

Simply put height has no effect on any match engine

It's up to the researchers to give players a proper jumping value depending on their height as it is defined as being a combination of their height and jumping ability in the game

The heading attribute is a technical attribute has nothing to do with winning headers but more to do with what a player does with the ball after he wins the header so a player with 1 heading and 20 jumping could probably win most headers in the game but what he does with the ball after he wins it would most likely be hurrendous where as a player with 20 heading and 1 jumping would most likely never win a header but if he were ever to happen to find the ball anywhere near his head he'd do some great work with it

It's a good idea to read before posting... Again heading has nothing to do with winning headers that's jumping... heading only determines what a player can do when the ball meets with their head...

The height data for players are purely cosmetic so is the representation in the 3-D match engine

This is not true and hasn't been true for quite a few issues, yet is still commonly believed.

Height is an indication of where a players relative strengths may lie.

A player that is very tall is likely to be better at jumping/heading the ball than he is with the ball at his feet, (however he could be a pretty carp player who is carp at both).

A player who is very small is likely to be better with the ball at his feet than he is at heading the ball, (however he could be a pretty carp player who is carp at both.

Jumping in FM is not the same as jumping in real life.

In real life, jumping could be defined as a a players ability to get his feet off the ground.

In FM however, jumping is defined as a players ability to get his head further away from the ground.

Jumping is a key attribute when it comes to decide who will win a header.

Heading is a secondary attribute when it comes to decide who will win a header.

Heading is a key attribute when it comes to decide the effectiveness of any pass/shot/clearance with the head, (after the header has already been won).

So to clarify.....

Tall players are likely to be better with the ball in the air than they are with the ball at their feet, (that is not the same as a tall player being better in the air than a small player).

Small players are likely to be better with the ball at their feet than they are with the ball in the air, (that is not the same as a small player being better with the ball at his feet than a tall player).

Jumping benefits you winning headers.

Heading benefits the effectiveness of headers that you win.

Having discussed this issue with plenty of knowledgable researchers I am quite certain my post clearly sums up how height relates to the game (in terms of the match engine) and what the jumping and heading attrıbutes do in the match engine. so really its no different than how it was in the old CM's when they didnt have data for height... Reseaechers take height into consideration when giving a player a rating for their jumping, no technical attribute has anything to do with a players height... If a tall player deserves good ratings for attributes that relate to his feet he gets them and if a short player deserves a good rating for his heading he gets it regardless of hisheight... Ihas to do with how they perform in real life and what they get statistically not silly assumptions like the ones you are making.

"Height is an indication of where a players relative strengths may lie."

For jumping this is correct and that is why jumping is defined as a combo of a players height and actual jumping. A player abilşty to get his head further away fromt he ground as you put it is just that a combo...

"A player that is very tall is likely to be better at jumping/heading the ball than he is with the ball at his feet, (however he could be a pretty carp player who is carp at both).

A player who is very small is likely to be better with the ball at his feet than he is at heading the ball, (however he could be a pretty carp player who is carp at both."

That logic is a little flawed but it is true that taller players will get a higher rating for the jumping attribute because their height+jumping combo will tend to be higher, but not always... With heading being a technical attribute height gives us no indication whatsoever as to how good a player will be at heading the ball... Yes taller players will most likely focus on trainning their heading skill more often than shorter ones but some of the best players at this attribute are quite short. It is true though that if you are a great header and tall you will be a more effective player in the air. Winning headers does not mean a player can effectively use them... When a researcher gives a rating for a players heading attribute he looks at what that player can do technically with his head not his height... Also how good he is statistically. When a researcher gives a player a jumping attribute he gives him a rating that is a combo of his height and ability to jump off the ground...

"In real life, jumping could be defined as a a players ability to get his feet off the ground.

In FM however, jumping is defined as a players ability to get his head further away from the ground.

Jumping is a key attribute when it comes to decide who will win a header.

Heading is a secondary attribute when it comes to decide who will win a header.

Heading is a key attribute when it comes to decide the effectiveness of any pass/shot/clearance with the head, (after the header has already been won)."

Agreed for the most part, but a player with a higher jumping attribute will most likely win the ball over one with a smaller rating, but if his heading atrribute is low he might send the ball straight to the opposition. If you're jumpıng+ height combo is not good enough to beat another player in the air what good will having even 20 heading do? Simply nothing as heading takes effect only when a players head meets the ball...

"Tall players are likely to be better with the ball in the air than they are with the ball at their feet, (that is not the same as a tall player being better in the air than a small player).

Small players are likely to be better with the ball at their feet than they are with the ball in the air, (that is not the same as a small player being better with the ball at his feet than a tall player).

Jumping benefits you winning headers.

Heading benefits the effectiveness of headers that you win."

You clearly have an understanding of what heading and jumping are in the game, but seem to have somewhat of a flawed logic as to who should get a higher rating on these attributes and for what reason... What you say for tall and short players may be true in some cases, but not in all... ratings are not given to players based on such assumptions... They are or rather should be given to them based on what they do in real life.

Again height plays no role in the match engine its up to the researcher to put it into account when giving a player these ratings... The match engine does not look at a players height and make that player better at jumping or heading if for some silly reason a resercher decided to give a 1 for jumping and 1 for heading for that player.

Again height plays no role in the match engine its up to the researcher to put it into account when giving a player these ratings... The match engine does not look at a players height and make that player better at jumping or heading if for some silly reason a resercher decided to give a 1 for jumping and 1 for heading for that player.

Though height would be a controlling attribute in this instance - on starting up the game will see a 6'6" player with 1 for jumping and rule it as a mistake. It would then generate a more realistic jumping attribute to match the specified height.

The manual clearly states that height is used in conjunction with jumping and heading as part of the match engine.

The problem is that this fact seems to be unknown for a great number of researchers. This has resulted in players like Reading's Noel Hunt having Jumping 18 even though the bloke is 178 cm tall - now I'm sure he's a lot better at winning headers than most people of his size, but come on...

The same seems to be true for Barnsley's small striker Iain Hume, who has a Jumping of 17 even though he's 170 cm tall according to Skysports' web site. I find that slightly unrealistic.

Interesting post...

For my part I can't understand why the 3d doesn't represent player height either.

Having played a Portsmouth Match with Defoe and Crouch I can catagorically state that the 3d engine shows differences in height.

I've read repeatedly that height is not calculated in the ME but that Jumping and Heading are. Can anyone explain to me how height can be ignored and say that a 5'6 defender can win a headball against Crouch just cause he has a higher stat for jumping?

You've never seen Enoch Showumni play have you? He actually gets shorter when he jumps.

Doruk, If you start to include FRED's in your thinking then I think you will see where I am coning from.

At the moment you seem to be concentrating on existing players who have been researched.

Interesting post...

For my part I can't understand why the 3d doesn't represent player height either.

It does represent it visually - overly so. I have a 5'4" player who is absolutely tiny, and appears less than half the height of his 6'1" colleague.

I was curious as to if Height actually has any influence on the ability to win headers, so I created a little test. Chris Iwelumo of Wolves is a big bloke, 196 cm tall and has a Jumping score of 17. With the editor I created an exact replica of Chris, called him Iwelumo II *but made him 170 cm tall* and stuck him the Wolves team. I started up a game, played a few friendlies and then selected the friendly against Stockport as my test match. Both Iwelumos had Good morale, Iwelumo II had 95% condition and the original 94%. I then played and replayed the match with a 4-5-1 defensive formation, target player on and the back four on Long passes. The squad was the same each of the four times I played the match, except for Iwelumo/Iwelumo II

Match #1 - Mr Tall Iwelumo: 31 headers, 17 won, 1 key

Match #2 - Mr Short Iwelumo: 28 - 19 - 0

Match #3 - Mr Tall Iwelumo: 27- 18 - 0

Match #4 - Mr Short Iwelumo: 38-27-2

As you can see, the 170 cm tall version of Iwelumo did even better than the 196 cm version. Granted, four replays of the same match isn't exactly a large enough sample but I for one think that the results clearly point to the fact that Height has very little to do with the ability to win headers. As far as I'm concerned, Height is cosmetic. Which is why I really detest to see players like Iain Hume (171cm) have a Jumping score of 18 in the game, since that makes him better in the air than Peter bloody Crouch.

"For my part I can't understand why the 3d doesn't represent player height either."

I don't know if that was some sort of a bug or a real deal but when I was managing PSG few days ago I just couldn't stop laughing watching my 3D matches. One of my best players in first season was Ludovic Giuly, always destroying defenders from the wing.. But he was sooo short It almost looked ridiculous watching him cutting through the field surrounded by all the giants from the OP

I know that Giuly is short in real life but this was completely mad BTW I'm not trying to report a bug or something.. I actually enjoyed watching it.. Please don't fix this !

ps : sorry for my bad english

The problem is that this fact seems to be unknown for a great number of researchers. This has resulted in players like Reading's Noel Hunt having Jumping 18 even though the bloke is 178 cm tall - now I'm sure he's a lot better at winning headers than most people of his size, but come on...

The same seems to be true for Barnsley's small striker Iain Hume, who has a Jumping of 17 even though he's 170 cm tall according to Skysports' web site. I find that slightly unrealistic.

It doesn't seem unknown by a great number at all. The Italian team have finally realised what it is. The Dundee United and Barnsley researchers seem to be exceptions rather than the rule. I mean, look at Martins, Sagna, Lita, Evra, etc., who have a great leap but are short, and Crouch, who hasn't much of a leap but is tall.

I was curious as to if Height actually has any influence on the ability to win headers, so I created a little test. Chris Iwelumo of Wolves is a big bloke, 196 cm tall and has a Jumping score of 17. With the editor I created an exact replica of Chris, called him Iwelumo II *but made him 170 cm tall* and stuck him the Wolves team. I started up a game, played a few friendlies and then selected the friendly against Stockport as my test match. Both Iwelumos had Good morale, Iwelumo II had 95% condition and the original 94%. I then played and replayed the match with a 4-5-1 defensive formation, target player on and the back four on Long passes. The squad was the same each of the four times I played the match, except for Iwelumo/Iwelumo II

Match #1 - Mr Tall Iwelumo: 31 headers, 17 won, 1 key

Match #2 - Mr Short Iwelumo: 28 - 19 - 0

Match #3 - Mr Tall Iwelumo: 27- 18 - 0

Match #4 - Mr Short Iwelumo: 38-27-2

As you can see, the 170 cm tall version of Iwelumo did even better than the 196 cm version. Granted, four replays of the same match isn't exactly a large enough sample but I for one think that the results clearly point to the fact that Height has very little to do with the ability to win headers. As far as I'm concerned, Height is cosmetic. Which is why I really detest to see players like Iain Hume (171cm) have a Jumping score of 18 in the game, since that makes him better in the air than Peter bloody Crouch.

Your experiment tells us that when you edit a strikers height, that it does not affect his performances.

It does not tell us that height is cosmetic within the match engine.

It has been confirmed by SI more times than I care to remember, that height is an indication of where a players relative strengths may lie. If you think that where an individuals strenghs/weaknesses may or may not lie will not make a differenece to the result as shown in the match engine, then I'm honestly not sure what will.

I almost let you get away with the Peter Crouch comment but I'm afraid I'm not going to.

I like Peter Crouch as a player. I think he has significantly more ability with the ball than he is given credit for and I think he gets a raw deal from many watchers of the game, (both supporters, pundits and reporters alike). He is however not very effective at all in the air. For his height his relative jumping ability is VERY poor, his ability when directing the ball with his head is not great either, and his positional sense is also pretty poor in this area, often causing him to give away needless free-kicks when in good attacking positions.

Compare him to the likes of Michael Owen & Tim Cahill, who are VERY good in the air despite their relatively small size.

I'm sorry to hear that height only has a visual effect in the match engine. I thought that since it was added to the game, it had to have an effect. I had a really good time making 210 CM players in the database as I wanted to see how a player with 20 heading and 20 jumping as well as being really tall would do. Now I understand that it has virtually no effect, and I'm just creating a bunch of players who will look silly on the pitch.

I agree that it's a problem that this is not logical at all. I'm sure, without knowledge of the exact mechanics, most people would assume that jumping only decides how well a player jumps. This means that Michael Owen can be quite small, but if he has 20 jumper he can still go quite high up into the air, although not high enough to beat a 210 CM player with a jumping attribute of 8.

And I see mentioned that heading decided who wins headers as well. Up until now, I assumed that it only had an effect on how good people were at heading (the effectiveness). How big a part does this play compared to jumping? Should I be afraid to have central defenders with high jumping and only 10 for heading? Also, I have seen plenty of really good strikers with bad heading score a lot of good headers. This seems realistic, since any player can make a good header in a decent position, but I'm wondering how big an effect heading actually has to how good headers players make.

surely something needs to be changed if height has no effect on how likely a player is to win a header

surely something needs to be changed if height has no effect on how likely a player is to win a header

A player's height is factored into his jumping attribute so why is something wrong?

AB-forever, because it's not logical to the people using the game and because it will add to the gameplay that it was a result of a combination between these two things (heigth and jumping)

AB-forever, because it's not logical to the people using the game and because it will add to the gameplay that it was a result of a combination between these two things (heigth and jumping)

I think it's much simpler this way, but I do agree that the jumping attribute could be renamed.

I thought strength also helped to determine whether a player wins the ball in the air?