Ways to boost quality of regens

There have been lots of discussions about the extent to which the quality of regens dips over time, and having worked through my first long-term FM08 game recently, I think it's unarguably true that after 2015 or so there is a lack of quality young players, unique instances aside. Obviously with luck this will be addressed in the next version, but in the meantime I wonder if anyone has tried the following:

When starting a new game, is it possible that the long-term quality of regens could be improved by editing the database first so that far more teams - spread evenly around the world - have 'state of the art' youth academies? Would this result in more, better quality, regens? Anyone tried it?

Apologies if all this has been discussed at length before.

To be honest with you though, out of all the youngsters who come through, how many will make it in the game? Most in real life are crap anyway.

You should try it and see what the results are and let us know the results before and after.

I would if it wouldn't take so long; I only get to FM for a few hours a week, unfortunately, so working through ten seasons takes me an age; this narrowing of opportunities does, however, prevent me from getting completely addicted and losing my girlfriend - so it's probably a trade-off worth making!

To be honest with you though, out of all the youngsters who come through, how many will make it in the game? Most in real life are crap anyway.

He is talking about the fact that if you compare the default db to one in 2025, there is not nearly as much quality.

Interesting. I don't think it would make that much of an impact, because in my experience, even when I've had State of the Art Youth Academy, I've still only churned out 1 world class player every 10 or 15 seasons. Then at a rough guess, I'd say there were 5-8 players worthy of the top league, and the rest go on to lower league football, or retirement.

If it does work, and clubs having state of the art academy's produce more quality regens, then I propse two questions to SI.

1. Why do clubs currently take ages to build up Training Ground / Youth Facilities, and Stadiums. From what I can see, very, very few clubs expand on stadiums, and while I've never taken too much notice about the facilities, I don't recall ever seeing them being improved outside of the Human manager.

2. Should (1.) happen, and also should better regens come from better facilities, what will be the consequence of a long term game.? I can honestly see it going from one extreme to the next, where in 2050 so many clubs have state of the art facilities, that they are just churning out superstars every season. You'd end up with Div. 1 and Div. 2 flooded with 180+ P.A Regens, and that would be just as bad as the way it currently is.

As far as i'm aware, the quality of training facilities has a marginal effect on the PA of promoted players.

The main variables appear to be rep, nationality, league rep and scouting knowledge. I only know this as i've had world class facilities (youth academy etc) in mickey mouse leagues and have had poor regens - similarly i've taken control of recently relegated clubs who have not received especially good regens, despite having excellent facilities.

I suspect that facilities only matter as far as how quickly a player attains his PA, rather than the starting PA of the player - not sure if this is realistic, but it's how i think the game works.

Interesting. I don't think it would make that much of an impact, because in my experience, even when I've had State of the Art Youth Academy, I've still only churned out 1 world class player every 10 or 15 seasons. Then at a rough guess, I'd say there were 5-8 players worthy of the top league, and the rest go on to lower league football, or retirement.

If it does work, and clubs having state of the art academy's produce more quality regens, then I propse two questions to SI.

1. Why do clubs currently take ages to build up Training Ground / Youth Facilities, and Stadiums. From what I can see, very, very few clubs expand on stadiums, and while I've never taken too much notice about the facilities, I don't recall ever seeing them being improved outside of the Human manager.

2. Should (1.) happen, and also should better regens come from better facilities, what will be the consequence of a long term game.? I can honestly see it going from one extreme to the next, where in 2050 so many clubs have state of the art facilities, that they are just churning out superstars every season. You'd end up with Div. 1 and Div. 2 flooded with 180+ P.A Regens, and that would be just as bad as the way it currently is.

Just started editing a db so that every UK team had a youth academy and training/youth facilities of 20 with the intention of leaving a game running to see what I ended up with by 2015, so I could compare it with an unedited saved game, but realised that seeing as I run a mac I can't use FMScout and hence any conclusions would be unscientific. But I'd be really interested to know what would happen should a PC user fancy taking on the task? Be interesting.

Just started editing a db so that every UK team had a youth academy and training/youth facilities of 20 with the intention of leaving a game running to see what I ended up with by 2015, so I could compare it with an unedited saved game, but realised that seeing as I run a mac I can't use FMScout and hence any conclusions would be unscientific. But I'd be really interested to know what would happen should a PC user fancy taking on the task? Be interesting.

Could you upload the db?

I'm very sorry about the double post. Thats even 31 minutes time difference, but I have no idea how I did it. I've not even visited the thread until now since my first post :confused:

Would be interested to see the results. My thinking would be that youth acadamy etc just increases the chances of getting high PA players, not the number produced in total.

Could you upload the db?

Nnnh, once I figured out it wasn't gonna be possible to quantify I didn't bother saving what I'd done - I should have. Mind you, I only edited about thirty or forty teams, so didn't go through and finish anyway. It didn't take long to get that far if anyone wants to give it a go.

I may give this a try in the next couple of days. I'll start some editing today and run a holiday game on the default DB at the side of it.

I'm thinking of running something like 10 countries, all the club in those 10 countries will be edited to have the best facilities. I'll run the game until 2030 and compare results. If any thing sounds off, or you think something should be done differently, let me know. Once I have results, I'll start a new thread but also post in here.

^

Good idea

Very interested in knowing what results.

The issue with poor regens isn't so much the PA but the low starting CA and slow development of this. So i guess the question is whether state of the art facilities gives regens a higher starting CA and whether they will improve their CA quicker.

I did experiment like upabove with Estonian league added into the game. From having bunch of guys with PA of 110-130... by 2025, my NT roster had around 100+ players with more than 150 potential and I had been topping world rankings for 6 consecutive years before I finished.

And didn't give every club 20-20. Most had 15-16 in both training and youth.

The issue with poor regens isn't so much the PA but the low starting CA and slow development of this. So i guess the question is whether state of the art facilities gives regens a higher starting CA and whether they will improve their CA quicker.

I agree, but there is another issue in physical stats. Very few players coming through have anywhere near decent physical abilities. I'm in 2020, and where I would look on 17/18 as good pace/acc stats, now I look at 14/15 to be very good and anything above that to be exceptional. Fitness and stamina are also usually very poor. I have to say that in my game I haven't had a problem with regen quality in general, but it seems to be the physical area where everyone is lacking.

To get around this I boosted all the clubs stats in the leagues of Spain, England, Italy, Germany, Brazil and Argentina so that they have trainin facilities and a youth set-up of 20.

Means there is a steady stream of quality players comming into the game.

I checked the Man Utd players in 2026 - every player in the game is a regen

The best player in the youth team had a PA of 136

The best player in the reserves had a PA of 168

The best player in the 1st team had a PA of 189

Proves that there are still good regens - the 136 PA of the youth team player may be a bit low but when was the last time a United first team player was home produced since the golden team of Becks, Scholes, The Nevilles etc? -- Wes Brown comes to mind as the only one.

I'll check again in a few seasons

It isn't PA that you should look at. PA are working fine, the problem is CA.

Look what the first team players has in CA and compare it to what they have in 2007 and you'll cry of disappointment.

i think state of the art youth facility is just for the ca..the better the facility the better they will produce better ca..i think on one instance this is right because their purpose is to develop youngster but on wether they will achieve it or not will depends on the player. i think they must adopt a system that will not limit its pa..something like, early peak for players,late peak,steady improvement.something like that

Are you going to put this in the Challenges/Sign-Ups/Experiments forum? because:

1-It is an experiment and

2-I seem to surf that forum more than this one and I would also be interested to find out.

Cheers

It isn't PA that you should look at. PA are working fine, the problem is CA.

Look what the first team players has in CA and compare it to what they have in 2007 and you'll cry of disappointment.

WHS on that note. I've read somewhere that people with 190+ P.A's only start with 40-50 C.A, leaving it extremely difficult for them to reach their potential. Unless they start at a big club and get the perfect guidance, they may never reach it. And people with 150-170 P.A only reach full potential around age 31, which is when stats, physically especially start taking a massive drop, so it kind of counter acts itself.

Are you going to put this in the Challenges/Sign-Ups/Experiments forum? because:

1-It is an experiment and

2-I seem to surf that forum more than this one and I would also be interested to find out.

Cheers

I personally think issues like this deserve to be discussed in this forum, and if someone is going to the trouble of proving or disproving the forums theory, there is no reason why it should become secluded to the CS&E forum.

WHS on that note. I've read somewhere that people with 190+ P.A's only start with 40-50 C.A, leaving it extremely difficult for them to reach their potential. Unless they start at a big club and get the perfect guidance, they may never reach it. And people with 150-170 P.A only reach full potential around age 31, which is when stats, physically especially start taking a massive drop, so it kind of counter acts itself.

Yup, I did an experiment a while back base don CA/PA versus attributes in general, I found loads of young players 24ish with PA's in the 180's and above with a CA of below 100, which pretty much guaranteed them never achieving full PA, no matter what facilities they use or how many games they get.

Personally, i've never had much of a problem with newgens (but I play in Germany so the elvel of player I am buying is never world class), the only problems i've encountered is strange attrubtes in relation to position played e.g. DC with 20 corners and 5 positioning, RW with 20 tackling and 3 crossing

I seem to find weird attribute distribution too. I find it very common for Goalkeepers to have very good Pace and acceleration, but not so hot in the other Physical departments.

And its very rare for me to find a defender with a combined total of 30+ Attribute points in Heading and Jumping. Two vital attributes along with Tackling for a DC, but they either have great jumping, or great heading, rarely, if at all both.

I seem to find weird attribute distribution too. I find it very common for Goalkeepers to have very good Pace and acceleration, but not so hot in the other Physical departments.

And its very rare for me to find a defender with a combined total of 30+ Attribute points in Heading and Jumping. Two vital attributes along with Tackling for a DC, but they either have great jumping, or great heading, rarely, if at all both.

Yeah GKs that can claim crosses (jumping >15) or throw themselves around a bit (agility >15) are something of a rarity.

Attributes seem only loosely tied into position - some sort of broad template is needed for 09, along the lines of a world class CB will always have >15 in x y and z, we don't want it too well defined, as it will remove all variation, but most positions have some VITAL stats that often get ignroed when youth players are developed.

The only saving grace here is that if you spot a players strong points early enough, you can retrain his position and get a good career from him in the position you feel he is best suited.

I'm a little annoyed you can no longer train Out field players to become GK's, because I never have on on the bench, I always used to have a Striker trained as one, just in case.

I personally think issues like this deserve to be discussed in this forum, and if someone is going to the trouble of proving or disproving the forums theory, there is no reason why it should become secluded to the CS&E forum.

I was actually thinking of posting it in here first so it can be discussed, and then uploading the database to the challenges forum. That is, if it makes any sort of difference.

I finished editing *almost* every playable club in the game to have 20 + 20 and also gave them all youth academies. I'm running the default db holiday game as I type and am currently in 2013. Once I hit around 2030, I will run the other game, setup the same. until the same date.

Then I shall compare the stats.

Looking forward to your findings Neji. I have a strong feeling the only difference will be -

There will be a lot more players with higher P.A's, but STILL very few people achieving them, thus still leaving the game with a lower standard of players.

Looking forward to your findings Neji. I have a strong feeling the only difference will be -

There will be a lot more players with higher P.A's, but STILL very few people achieving them, thus still leaving the game with a lower standard of players.

Thats the same for me. I don't think there will be a great difference, unfortunately.

Looking forward to your findings Neji. I have a strong feeling the only difference will be -

There will be a lot more players with higher P.A's, but STILL very few people achieving them, thus still leaving the game with a lower standard of players.

I'll be controversial and predict higher CAs (marginally) with a similar distribution of PAs. I maintain training facilities shouldn't affect PA as much as it should affect CA - but i guess we'll have answers soon enough

I'm going to be different from everyone and say there will be no difference.

Upon seeing you as the last poster, Frazza I said to myself the following.

"I bet Frazza's post is a tongue in cheek post, with 1 sentence and no more than 15 words."

Amazing.

Why do you think there will be no difference, do you actually have an opinion on it, or were you just posting for the sake of posting?

I am having the same problem in fact i posted a thread about it not to long ago.

I'm Liverpool and in 2013 , i go to look at Holland U'19's (Brazil,Argentina etc) and most of the squad that is listed are "greyed out", and the players that are active are not at all good.

As for my own Youth Academy ive updraged my Training Facilities etc all to "state of the art" and it made little difference, some, but not a lot.

I hope this gets sorted because scouting for youth players or having a local lad come through the ranks is great to see, although i admit theres a fine line between that,, and making it too stupid by having too many "world class" players about.

I'll be controversial and predict higher CAs (marginally) with a similar distribution of PAs. I maintain training facilities shouldn't affect PA as much as it should affect CA - but i guess we'll have answers soon enough

Yeah, that's what I'd been thinking reading the thread.

If that's the case - better facilities = better starting CA for youth players, but unchanged PA - I'd expect the impact to be fairly large.

That's because, as I said in Most Disappointing Aspect of a Long Term Game, I believe that the long-term low CA occurs because of low starting CA .. which leads to the AI not giving the young players sufficient playing time at a young enough age to ensure that they get close to their PA.

So, my theory would be, if the training facilities make a significant improvement to the CA of the promoted youth players .. then the long-term game should see a significant improvement to the CA of veterans active in 2025.

Now .. the other question is .. does the original database continue to have this problem beyond 2025?

Somebody needs to holiday an *unmodified* DB for a 100-year span as a control, with the same active leagues, DB size, etc .. and the modified DB needs to run for a similar span.

Why?

Because it may just be that the regens generated from 2009-2019 have been denied playing time *by the quality players in the original DB* .. leading to a "depression" of talented footballers from 2020-2029 .. but that depression might lead the regens of that period to get more playing time, leading to a "renaissance" in 2030-2039.

I haven't gotten far enough to know, but its certainly a plausible explanation.

That makes alot of sense, Amaroq. I'm not sure I'll go for 100 years but you may have persuaded me to go further than 2030. What I will do is run the game til 2030 like originally planned, and post the results. Then, I will keep running the game and keep regular updates.

I'd love to see it as a side-by-side comparison, maybe, with data points taken every five years or so?

Obviously, 100 years would be overkill if you aren't spotting a trend ... one thing I'm imagining though as a possibility is like ripples in a pond after you throw a rock, the rock being the initial DB - you see some big waves for a moment or two, but then it may even out, reaching something approaching a steady state .. and that may actually take the full 100 years.

Not sure I'm making sense - its Monday morning and the coffee just doesn't seem to be kicking in!

Yes, you're making sense. I have an incremental save going every year, so I will have plenty of saves to choose from.

I think you could be right in terms of technical abilities. However no matter how much playing time, even my best regens (see my other thread - Your Best Regens) physical stats and stats for set pieces are consistently low. So I still think that will be a problem but in terms of CA, in 100 years time, it probably will have a much higher average than in 20 years time.

In theory yes it is a good idea, but would it work? But yet ccurrently in the game there are brillant youth academies, for example Arsenal, Man Utd, Inter and many more. But still the quantity of quality is questionable. I doubt that it would enhance the quality of the regens greatly.

In theory yes it is a good idea, but would it work?

Thats the idea of the experiment

I checked the first team squads of some of the top European clubs at the end of the 2029 season

All had at least 3 players with 175+ CA - Real Madrid had 7

The Man Utd squad was a bit short on talent but only finished 5th in the Premier

LutonNil, how does that compare to the original DB, in your opinion?

LutonNil, how does that compare to the original DB, in your opinion?

TBH I would say that these figures are about right for the top European sides

The deteriation of Man U is probably due to the massive debt at the start of the game

use the Fmm editor and at the end of your current playing session. create a hand full of decent players who are scatterd around the world, 10 a season is 100 over a 10 year period, as long as they are not English it would be realistic