Unrealistic rapid downturn in form

I WAS playing with Inter in my career had lost 2 games all season, out of 29 games, on a 14 match unbeaten run. I have Napoli away in the cup. At H last time I played the same formation, and tactics as I used in this game and won, and dominated, which I had been for every game for a while. I lose 6-2. They're finishing was incredible. I had more possession and not many less shots, but struggled to get into the game, but 45% possession and scoring six against Maicon, Lucio, Samuel and Alba, really? It was just ridiculous. It wasn't as if I'd been looking shaky at the back, quite the opposite, like the Man Utd example I know people will give. I win the next league game 4-1 but still don't keep the ball well enough compared to usual. I then lose to Shakhtar 4-0 in the CL. Dreadful.

The rapidness of the downturn in the form was absurd. On the crust of a wave, walking every match to them scoring screamers left, right and centre and us struggling desperately to keep the ball and create as we had been. I could understand if I had changed something, had been scraping games or the like, but I'd been playing the formation for ages now, and had brilliant success in doing so, and all of a sudden, for no reason, I was getting battered.

maybe they figured out your tactic and beat you?, kinda answered your own question really, sounds more realstic...

Losing 2 out of 3 games is hardly worthy of starting such a thread. Sure, losing 6-2 to Napoli would be unexpected, but the occasional freak result will pop up from time to time. Combination of complacency, luck etc perhaps. Losing 4-0 to Shakhtar would also fall into the unexpected category, but I did just have them in my Champions League group, and they played me off the park at Old Trafford, though I was fortunate to come through with a win. Seems like they are very highly rated.

A lot of players have reported sudden downturns in form. Usually this is explained by using the same tactic for every game, so no matter how good your team is, you become predictable. It has also been suggested that giving too many positive team talks can lead to over confidence, and morale is then shattered by a loss. You probably have at least 1 other tactic in preparation, maybe try going to that if your run continues, or maybe just make some tweaks to your favored tactic like changing "focus passing" or "passing style", or perhaps altering instructions for 1 or 2 players.

It'd be interested to read how things progress.

Napoli and Shakthar aren't really bad teams. I don't see what's so strange about this.

The thing is it wasn't down to being figured out. Napoli played the same system as they did in the previous game I'd played them and I do have 2 systems I rotate. 14 matches unbeaten playing teams off the park, and then I get hammered, with no sign that it might have been coming, I just think that's a little unrealistic. Btw, I signed Willian too who is one of SD's best players.

Congratulaions, it sounds like you hit the tactical wall so to speak. So here is the truth, many of the fanboys on here will reply saying "In real life blah blah blah". Well this is not real life, it is a game, and like all games it has AI instructions and parameters. Personally i wish SI would just take that first 6-8 month honeymoon period out of the game altogether, it gives people the wrong expectations of what their team can achive. It still suprises me how a team "figures out" my tactics when i have players with high flair, high creativitiy as well as other high solid attributes. In my case with Barca a few saves ago, my team should have been dominent, they were professional and determined to win but also had high creative stats, in my eyes the opposition should have found it a nightmare to play them as my players would have a formation to start with but their skills should have allowed them to get out of any situations where they were played into trouble. However i found players with amazing ball skills constantly being caught on the ball or playing the wrong pass.

In my new game with Middlesbrough i play an ultra defensive game due to my squad being terrible. My philosophy was to play for a 0-0 or at best 1-0 win. In the first few weeks i was beating teams 4-1 and 3-0 which was a suprise to me because i didnt give my players enough freedom or attacking emphasis to achive this (yes i am actually annoyed).

Now after christmas its turned into a diffrent story, i have started to lose games by large margins or the AI scores an equalizer in the last minute. What really does peeve me off is the way the AI scores, i play an untra defensive, very rigid, counter acttack, which means everybody but 1 striker has defensive duties, however the computers goals always comes from an over the top ball with my defence far up pitch, this should be impossible. Im eeking out the odd result now and its pretty much what i expected at the start of the season but FM11 & 12 just seemed to haave lost something in my opinion.

SI seem so hellbent on stopping supertactics and morale boosting work arounds that they are destroying the core part that used to make the game fun. I understand there is a hardcore element of fans that want more from the game, but it has lost the old pick up and play feel for me completely.

Its true, this always happens without fail. It may come half way through the first season or it may take a season or 2 to kick in but it will happen at some point. Not only will one team "figure out" your tactic at one point in the season but all teams will at the same time suddenly play you off the park and your key players will look sluggish and constantly get caught in possession and enemy teams will play like barca against you. The main thing for me seems to always be with my defense and the ease in which the enemy is able to cut through my back line with pin point precise passing and my CB's will remain static to high up the pitch and useless.

Lots of people will say the same as proevorules (the first reply) and things like "its your tactics" etc etc but this does not explain whats happening to your team as they turn from top draw quality to talentless morons with crap ratings, practically overnight. I dont care what anyone says differently the "tactical wall" is there and there is sometimes nothing you can do to prevent it.

Congratulaions, it sounds like you hit the tactical wall so to speak. So here is the truth, many of the fanboys on here will reply saying "In real life blah blah blah". Well this is not real life, it is a game, and like all games it has AI instructions and parameters. Personally i wish SI would just take that first 6-8 month honeymoon period out of the game altogether, it gives people the wrong expectations of what their team can achive. It still suprises me how a team "figures out" my tactics when i have players with high flair, high creativitiy as well as other high solid attributes. In my case with Barca a few saves ago, my team should have been dominent, they were professional and determined to win but also had high creative stats, in my eyes the opposition should have found it a nightmare to play them as my players would have a formation to start with but their skills should have allowed them to get out of any situations where they were played into trouble. However i found players with amazing ball skills constantly being caught on the ball or playing the wrong pass.

In my new game with Middlesbrough i play an ultra defensive game due to my squad being terrible. My philosophy was to play for a 0-0 or at best 1-0 win. In the first few weeks i was beating teams 4-1 and 3-0 which was a suprise to me because i didnt give my players enough freedom or attacking emphasis to achive this (yes i am actually annoyed).

Now after christmas its turned into a diffrent story, i have started to lose games by large margins or the AI scores an equalizer in the last minute. What really does peeve me off is the way the AI scores, i play an untra defensive, very rigid, counter acttack, which means everybody but 1 striker has defensive duties, however the computers goals always comes from an over the top ball with my defence far up pitch, this should be impossible. Im eeking out the odd result now and its pretty much what i expected at the start of the season but FM11 & 12 just seemed to haave lost something in my opinion.

SI seem so hellbent on stopping supertactics and morale boosting work arounds that they are destroying the core part that used to make the game fun. I understand there is a hardcore element of fans that want more from the game, but it has lost the old pick up and play feel for me completely.

You call people fanboys when they don't agree with you and yet you are just as bad as you won't accept you are wrong.

There is no grace period in the game and the AI don't "Figure out" your tactics.

I have come across indications in my save that there is something iffy with the current morale/tactics/ME interaction, during my last season I would go on a unbeaten runs with my squad brim full of confidence, then all of a sudden I'd lose/draw a match which would see an immediate & significant drop in confidence resulting in a short run of defeats or draws then all of a sudden confidence would be back & we'd get a couple of wins.

Once the season was finished our overall record look fairly good when you looked at the table but it didn't feel right due to massive peaks & troughs in confidence.

I've also seen a few references from other people about an inexplicable loss of confidence(morale) & pronounce swings in form from winning streaks to can't buy a win periods & then back to another winning streak.

I've also seen a few references from other people about an inexplicable loss of confidence(morale) & pronounce swings in form from winning streaks to can't buy a win periods & then back to another winning streak.

You have basically described my entire FM12 experience right here. Winning streak, winless streak where you can barely pass the ball two yards, back to winning streak, and so forth.

Everything people have mentioned are things I can relate with just in the last three games. Teams suddenly can't lose the ball, we simply cannot win it back, their finishing is unbelievable and I cannot even begin to think why it's happened. I started the season dominating but not being able to score, and sat in 7th, went on an unbelievable run and got top, but it's been ruined by this period. It's something that seems to happen a lot. You'll hit heights where you can't do no wrong, then hit a period where you can't even play well despite the tactic being exactly the same, uncomplicated and allowing world-class players to do what they want, with short passing and pass to feet. Another thing I realised was that in neither game did I even have a man sent off, wasn't hit by injuries or anything, just completely out the blue.

Ok Cougar your right, I have not started 100+ games in Football Manager in won out the first sixth months or so, its all just a dream. What i didnt add to my post is the fact that i always end up being sucessful in my games, but i see the repetition in a downturn in form every game i play after 6 - 8 months even though i use different teams in different leagues from all levels.

I use the term fan boys because this board has changed over the last 10 years and it seems to be like Apple product owners these days who defend the product with religious fanatasism. Please dont feel the need to put words into my mouth to push your agenda, at no point did i indicate i was infallible. I make lots of mistakes in FM and try to learn from them, in December i spent the whole day reading tactial theories and user guides from various sources to better facilitate my managerial career.

I disregard anyone's statement of the grace period because it is there to see for everyone, call it what you will being an unknown/unproven manager players trying to prove themselves to you. I consider myself knowlegable about football, i live in Catalunya in Spain home of the mighty Barcelona whom i watch every game, i also have 4 non leauge teams in my town who I watch regularly. When im at a game i feel i have a good knowledge for what is going on, on the pitch, i can see where the teams are beating each other and now in my older years i can even feel a goal coming. On the flip side when i play this game i no longer have a feel for why something is happening, admittedly i dont watch the games in full i play with highlights, but this should not take away my ability to pick up and play, after all i paid my £35 like everyone else. I have played this game since Championship Manager on the Amiga and in the past few versions it has become less and less of a joy to play which worries me, because i dont really want to stop playing, on the other hand i have a demading job and personal life which does not allow me to spend hours playing the game. My worry for the future of the game is that SI will alienate the small time players like me to indulge the hardcore gamers. The game should be set up to apease all gamers, for example EA Sports Madden 12 is an amazing game, being an avid fan of the sport and game for many years I can play on pro mode, but i would not expect a first timer to play on pro mode as they will get their perverbial asses handed to them on a plate. All Madden play mode on the other hand is ridiculous with the AI cheating in various ways in order to get the win.

At the end of the day this is a game but i see many frustrated gamers on this board (me included at times), and all you find are ridiculous replies from people like Cougar2010 who dont even begin to try to help, they just come on in defense of the game.

Your right I didn't expand on my post.

The simple reason I didn't was the tone and content of your previous post which led me to believe you had already made up your mind and weren't prepared to listen to advice meaning I would be wasting my time.

Following on from the recent posts football is fairly simple you are either in a good spell of form or a bad spell of form. When you are in a good spell a bad spell is the only direction you can go and when in a bad spell a good spell is the only direction you can go. Your job as a manager is to maximise the good spells and minimise the bad spells.

This has gotten beyond a joke now. I just lost at home to a 10 man PSV side.

I had 23 shots to 7 (11 on target versus 5, and 1 woodwork a piece);

2 goals ruled out off-side;

4 clear cut chances to 3;

11 half-chances to 1;

Only 3 long shots for the entire match so it wasn't like we were blasting it;

63% of possession;

8 corners to 0;

85% of passes completed to 62%;

And I lost 3-1. Their last two goals came after they went a man down. Before the last patch I was flying. The day I download it the game changes and it's been like this ever since.

Cougar it's rare teams IRL go on a brilliant run, are unstoppable and then get hammered without reason and can't buy a win. They may go through a sticky patch but nowhere near as severe as we are talking about, especially at the level we are talking about.

Cougar it's rare teams IRL go on a brilliant run, are unstoppable and then get hammered without reason and can't buy a win. They may go through a sticky patch but nowhere near as severe as we are talking about, especially at the level we are talking about.

I know what your saying and I have a theory why some users see it more than others.

I suspect the users that see the quick swings from extreme to extreme are slower to adapt to changes within the game/save, especially from winning runs to losing ones. The users that spot the signs quicker and adapt quicker slow down the change from good run to bad run by going through a "sticky patch" and they also grind out a few results which helps to get back to a winning run earlier.

The whole dynamic of the ME feels so scripted, most of the time it feels like you are not trying to play to the strength of your team but just to find the right strategy to counter whatever the AI is doing, it's like they are on "attacking" now so you switch to "counter" and immediately score regardless of player ability or motivation, this is emphasized by conceding right on the next kick-off when you score.

I think that unless you watch the games on extended or full and keep tweaking to everything the AI does you have a massive handicap and i just don't have the patience to watch all my games on extended or full.

@ltdamn, playing against 10 man is another thing that usually just goes wrong to the team with 11 players..

I suspect the users that see the quick swings from extreme to extreme are slower to adapt to changes within the game/save, especially from winning runs to losing ones. The users that spot the signs quicker and adapt quicker slow down the change from good run to bad run by going through a "sticky patch" and they also grind out a few results which helps to get back to a winning run earlier.

I can sort of rule out that theory.

Due to having plenty of time on my hands I micro-manage to the extreme, I watch full matches rather than highlights & will adjust mt tactics/instructions during the game to try & counter the opposition yet there were many times during my last season where I felt that there was no control over what was happening.

I'd also add the morale changes were illogical for most of the season, during the final few games I was top of the league with a small points cushion but my team morale was on the somewhat poor side, I put this down to the game trying to replicate nervousness ahead of our impending promotion but once the promotion was secured my team all took a further dip in morale with most of the squad showing as poor or worse.

I am starting to think that there is an over-reliance at SI towards the soak tests that PaulC likes to post & these are not allowing anomalies within the match engine to be picked up. It's very nice seeing what the end of season stats are & how they compare to what is expected (as I said earlier the final table in my promotion year looked reasonable) but soak tests do not allow you to fully appreciate how the ME arrived at the raw data, at a very basic level 46 anomalous events could lead to what appears to be a perfectly acceptable mean average.

Your right I didn't expand on my post.

When you are in a good spell a bad spell is the only direction you can go and when in a bad spell a good spell is the only direction you can go. Your job as a manager is to maximise the good spells and minimise the bad spells.

Absolutley true, however i feel like it do this already with my teamtalks and what i expect of my players. I used to base my TT on the match odds, however I then realised this made no change to the downturn, so i based them on my evaluation of my squad and the opponents which also didnt work, so now i generally leave them to my assistant.

My problem with FM 11 & 12 is that i feel everything is reactive and never proactive.

I real life teams all have bad days we know this however, after the reputation adjustment the computer very rarely has an off day and it seems to be me who is up against it.

I read a peice in a magazine recently by Pep Guardiola and Johan Cryuff who talked about a club philosophy and finding the players to fit it, and it reminded me of the days when Allerdyce was at Bolton, he said the same thing, you can play the same formation every week as long as your players fit the system they help make it work.

This is how i have always applied it to FM and have had various degrees of success. Unlike Allerdyce, my philosophy changes depending on the team and club stature but it always seems to crumble in recent additions.

As an example i played 5-4-1 with my Barcelona team, generally i played Messi up front, looking to take advantage of the opposition with his ability. However if i noticed a team had an attacking FB or wing back i moved Messi out to the wing to take advantage of this. This would in theory change the whole way the team played because people were in various positions that maybe they had not played before, they all had their various different styles of play which should have been a factor but the AI does not see this.

With this Barca team i was very successfull for 3 seasons even though the results were harder after the first six months, tinkering my overall tactical instructions each season to suit the incoming and outgoing players. But after 3 seasons the 4-5-1 just became a faliure against any major opposition, so i had to change the whole philosophy to a 4-4-2 which work with immidiate effect, but i didnt want to change to 4-4-2, my club was set up an catered to the 4-5-1.

With my most recent game, i scrapped the philosophy idea and went toward tactical certaincy (i call it ) which was to purchase players who exactly fit one position, they would be given no freedom to express themselves they just had to fufill my tactical requirements. This for me, should have been a season from hell, with good bad and indifferent results

Well to my surprise it started like all other games, me tonking the opposition 4-0, 3-1, 3-0. I was disgusted, i had a team of nobodies who were supposed to be scratching out results, playing like Barca. Then December 31st hit and its all gone down hill. I do everything i can to keep morale up, my players are happy and fit, not over confident. But we just can find the win. I know if i changed to a back up tactic i have i would start winning again but that isnt what i expect to have to do because this tactic is not befitting of the players i have.

Cougar the thing is there was nothing to react to, I'd been on an incredible run, why would I change things? Then they score 4 in something like 15 minutes. As I say, if we'd been playing averagely before, I would have changed something, but I would have been crazy to change anything. During the game I changed various things to try and get some sort of reaction. But nothing.

Happened to me with Inter Milan, lost 3 times in a row, to 19th place, to 17th place and to 17th place Series C1/A - i fielded my strongest team in 2 of the 3 matches, and didnt score a goal in any, conceded 6.

I'm currently 6 games unbeaten, 4 wins 2 draws. It happens

Cougar the thing is there was nothing to react to, I'd been on an incredible run, why would I change things? Then they score 4 in something like 15 minutes. As I say, if we'd been playing averagely before, I would have changed something, but I would have been crazy to change anything. During the game I changed various things to try and get some sort of reaction. But nothing.

Its little things.

You had your first defeat which from your OP looks like its one of those games. How did you react? angry? sympathise?

How well do you know your squad? Are they of similar personality? Do you take any notice of personality when signing players? A team of mixed personalities will always be more difficult to motivate as they will all react differently.

So morale dips a little but you win your next match albeit you recognise the team didn't play that well. Again what was your teamtalk? Did they approach the Shaktar match with a false confidence due to the 4-1 win.

Overall three games doesn't make a bad spell especially when you won one match but the signs are there its turning into one. You've recognised this and now need to work out how to minimise the bad results and get back to winning ways.

Absolutley true, however i feel like it do this already with my teamtalks and what i expect of my players. I used to base my TT on the match odds, however I then realised this made no change to the downturn, so i based them on my evaluation of my squad and the opponents which also didnt work, so now i generally leave them to my assistant.

I think assistants use match odds for their teamtalks and although I use them as a base I agree there are times where they don't feel quite right so I use my own judgement based on odds, opposition strength, opposition form & my own form.

I think its wrong to try to fight a downturn in form and personally I find it better to accept its happening. Once you have it in your mind that your in a bad spell you can adapt riding it out and turning it back into a good spell quicker.

My problem with FM 11 & 12 is that i feel everything is reactive and never proactive.

This is what Barside is talking about in post #18 and I can understand it to a certain degree but it isn't always the case.

If you ignore the fact that one team has a human user (The ME doesn't differentiate) what you basically have is two formations banging heads. All formations have strengths & weaknesses and as long as they don't line up man for man each formation will have an area of the field it has an advantage in and an area it doesn't. If both formations play to their strengths you should see chances at both ends but ultimately what happens is one side will back off and try to defend their weak area whilst the other team establishes dominance.

This is very similar to what you see in a boxing ring or at a poker table when two players feel they have the best hand.

In terms of FM there are plenty of times where I blink first and adapt to defend a danger but on the flipside there are plenty of occasions where I've forced the AI to change first - Common example currently is where AI goes to 5 at the back.

As an example i played 5-4-1 with my Barcelona team, generally i played Messi up front, looking to take advantage of the opposition with his ability. However if i noticed a team had an attacking FB or wing back i moved Messi out to the wing to take advantage of this. This would in theory change the whole way the team played because people were in various positions that maybe they had not played before, they all had their various different styles of play which should have been a factor but the AI does not see this.

With this Barca team i was very successfull for 3 seasons even though the results were harder after the first six months, tinkering my overall tactical instructions each season to suit the incoming and outgoing players. But after 3 seasons the 4-5-1 just became a faliure against any major opposition, so i had to change the whole philosophy to a 4-4-2 which work with immidiate effect, but i didnt want to change to 4-4-2, my club was set up an catered to the 4-5-1.

With my most recent game, i scrapped the philosophy idea and went toward tactical certaincy (i call it ) which was to purchase players who exactly fit one position, they would be given no freedom to express themselves they just had to fufill my tactical requirements. This for me, should have been a season from hell, with good bad and indifferent results

Well to my surprise it started like all other games, me tonking the opposition 4-0, 3-1, 3-0. I was disgusted, i had a team of nobodies who were supposed to be scratching out results, playing like Barca. Then December 31st hit and its all gone down hill. I do everything i can to keep morale up, my players are happy and fit, not over confident. But we just can find the win. I know if i changed to a back up tactic i have i would start winning again but that isnt what i expect to have to do because this tactic is not befitting of the players i have.

Formations are dynamic and teams change, not just based on your formation but on other AI formations.

If several AI teams change to a formation that has an advantage over yours then you need to adapt to that situation.

For example in my save (FM11) I moved to Italy around 2014 and a lot of teams were using narrow formation 4312, 4321 & 4231 fairly common with other teams experimenting. Inter won the league with a 442 formation using 2*DMs and suddenly the teams playing with AMCs started to struggle and were forced to change. Inter's formation became much more common over the next few seasons before other teams again started to experiment. I moved to Germany where the Inter formation was fairly common but two seasons later 41221 (DM/ML/MR/AMC) is starting to overtake it.

In the Napoli game we didn't create and the defending was abysmal. Morale was sky-high and the personalities were fine, I'd only signed about 4 players, all of which were doing ok-good. Simply, IRL, this would not happen THIS suddenly, and in these circumstances, and from other posts it sounds like it is a problem, I just posted it as I thought it happened too often, too randomly.

On the crust of a wave

haha brill

In the Napoli game we didn't create and the defending was abysmal. Morale was sky-high and the personalities were fine, I'd only signed about 4 players, all of which were doing ok-good. Simply, IRL, this would not happen THIS suddenly, and in these circumstances, and from other posts it sounds like it is a problem, I just posted it as I thought it happened too often, too randomly.

What do you mean by this suddenly?

There are only three results in a match, you either win, lose or draw.

If we take a couple of examples this season:

Man Utd - Won five in a row in the league during December then lost 3-2 to Blackburn & 3-0 to Newcastle.

Man City - Won nine in a row through Oct/Nov then lost 2-1 to Napoli & drew 1-1 with Liverpool.

I've got a diff spin on this discussion.

I play a network game with a friend. He's man u and I'm man city. We are into our 4th season and he's won 3 prems in a row where as I have only won the fa cup. He is a machine, keeps winning, where as I have the same hiccups that are described in this thread.

Last season I was mid way through the season winning every game and had a 9 point lead. Was around feb I then inexplicably went on a soul destroying run of 8 games 7 defeats and 1 draw, needless to say this put me out the champs lge and the title race. Where as he kept winning.

So in the same save, two different fortunes. Sadly for me it would appear its me who doesn't know what I'm doing wrong! Any my mate who is running away with it in this years FM.

He's obviously cheating

There's a very simple solution to this. Create a second tactic, preferably slightly more defensive than your main tactic. Use it when you want to hold on to a lead or in games where you want be more cautious. In any way, the occasional use of a second tactic(no matter how similar it is to the original) will keep the AI off balance and you won't have a feeling they "cracked" your tactic.

*Crest, lol. Cougar I mean not just getting beat, but comprehensively smashed. City drawing away to Liverpool and 2-1 to Napoli away is nowhere near as bad. United were playing averagely, had an injury-ravaged squad and got beat narrowly with their reserves then 3-0, which still isn't that bad.

*Crest, lol. Cougar I mean not just getting beat, but comprehensively smashed. City drawing away to Liverpool and 2-1 to Napoli away is nowhere near as bad. United were playing averagely, had an injury-ravaged squad and got beat narrowly with their reserves then 3-0, which still isn't that bad.

There is a difference.

In real life most of the time managers will change tactics when they are beat to avoid a thrashing (Man Utd v City aside) whilst teams that are comfortably ahead will keep possession more rather than going for more goals.

In FM I suspect you made more attacking changes to try to get back into the match rather than trying to avoid getting thrashed.

Its your tactics ( Runs Away!)

Haha thing is Cougar I didn't, I kept it exactly the same but went more conservative so we could just keep possession and get a stranglehold on the game, listening to other people poor form is too sudden and too extreme in FM in certain games.

I was playing as Barcelona and won every game from the beginning of the season until the Spanish super cup final 2nd leg. And promptly lost 9-1 away to Athletic, I admit I Played a weakened team but 9-1!

I cant understand why some people can't accept that freak results happen.

OP, your team was flying, super confident and feeling unbeatable. After the first goal or two against Napoli went in (Who have amazing forwards, more than capable of scoring against the defenders you mentioned) your players heads dropped and they panicked.

I always think the longer the good run you are on, the harder you are hit by defeat. After Arsenals 49 game unbeaten run they had one win in 5 (and that was 5-4).

Also, when you give examples of all the other who have experienced the same thing, you fail to mention all the people who haven't experienced the same thing - who are much less likely to post in a thread about it.

Freak results my ass. I started my 2nd season in charge of Bayern absolutely superbly (around the time the patch came out), and like many people here (apparently), I experienced a sudden crash at Christmas. I had only conceded 9 goals in all competitions by December, then suddenly I lose to Seattle Sounders in the CWC. A team of almost exclusively grayed out players. Then I draw in the league to Hoffenheim. Then I lose in the cup to Köln. Then I have difficulty winning my mid-season friendlies. A month of utter hell. Even worse, every teamtalk I gave managed to fire up every single one of my players without fail, yet they still kept sucking. I only managed to emerge from it when I started to play a whole new formation.

That rough patch was completely inexplicable. I didn't have more injuries than I normally have, my team wasn't more complacent than they normally are (like I said, they even reacted better to team talks in that period), my opponents were actually weaker than normal (in competitive matches, not counting the friendlies). They just played like a bunch of donkeys (or Andy Carroll's, if you will). And it happened for a full month until I redid my tactics to launch us on a winning run.

Also I should add that I did actually do very little with my tactics. I play with maximum creative freedom and roaming, so the only thing I really did was changing the formation.

i don't see how managers 'figuring' out your tactics is beleivable

everyone knows how united play but can't stop them dominating the league

same as barca

tactics don't get figured out, it's the players u have that win the games, tactics play too big of a part in fm imo, especially minute intricities

In the Napoli game we didn't create and the defending was abysmal. Morale was sky-high and the personalities were fine, I'd only signed about 4 players, all of which were doing ok-good. Simply, IRL, this would not happen THIS suddenly, and in these circumstances, and from other posts it sounds like it is a problem, I just posted it as I thought it happened too often, too randomly.

Me and a friend playing with Roma and Napoli respectively experienced this yesterday, several times. We faced each other in the Italian Cup final, me with ok morale mostly, he with very good morale and some superb. Our tactics are almost identical - one click on four different players and one click to team instructions are all that differs - but since he won Serie A the two first seasons and CL in his second season while I hadn't won anything yet at that point (2nd place in the league season 2 as best performance) his team is much stronger than mine. We actually chose the same team-talk too, and the reactions were quite similar (his team takes his word as gospel, though, while all the players in my team ignores me completely).

I won 4-0, crushing him completely. His players didn't run, they made horrible mistakes all the time, my passes were bullets ricocheting between the players while his were mostly wild clearances or extremely poor choices. Hamsik playing on the left winger (natural) were invisible the whole match facing a 1,5 star CA 17-years-old wonderkid which I had to field instead of suspended Papadoupoulos(sp?) - he was literally chanceless... and the same could be said for the rest of his players.

It looked like the final was played between a world-class team and a bunch of amateurs.

This could be explained with "blunder/random event" but both of us had many occurences like that this third season. After being a completely superior team the first two seasons, he started the third by losing 6-3 to Leverkusen in the Super Cup (under 0-4 after 10 minutes), 4-4 to me on pentalties in the Italian Super Cup and 4-0 away to Milan in the league (a team he crushed with similar numbers many times before) somewhat later in the season. His team is now arguably the best in Italy when it comes to quality and depth, yet he is now struggling to come third in the third season and have lost all chances to win a trophy thanks to a number of extremely poor performances that neither of us can explain.

The issue is not the losses, really, it is the way the come; a team that wipes the floor with Barcelona (7-1) suddenly and for no comprehensible reason falls completely apart. Some of the players even had Abysmal morale after conceding one goal! I think they started out as Very good...

The 3D does an exceptionally poor job of displaying a team getting beaten/outplayed.

I really don't understand why many of you can't understand that winning runs come to an end, bad form follows good form and that you lose games you should win from time to time.

Isn't that why we love football?? because the better team doesn't always win.

Lets just pick out a few results from yesterday:

Brighton 1-0 Newcastle

Hull 0-1 Crawley

Hartlepool 4-0 Carlisle

Rochdale 3-0 Bury

Tranmere 1-1 Huddersfield

Yeovil 2-1 Preston

If real life worked the same as you want FM to work none of the above results would have happened yesterday!

EDIT

As for teams turning up one week but not the next you just have to look at Man City from earlier in the month. Down to 10 vs Utd and played really well, next week with 11 they are a shadow of that performance as they can hardly pass the ball vs Liverpool.

I really don't understand why many of you can't understand that winning runs come to an end, bad form follows good form and that you lose games you should win from time to time.

Isn't that why we love football?? because the better team doesn't always win.

Lets just pick out a few results from yesterday:

Brighton 1-0 Newcastle

Hull 0-1 Crawley

Hartlepool 4-0 Carlisle

Rochdale 3-0 Bury

Tranmere 1-1 Huddersfield

Yeovil 2-1 Preston

If real life worked the same as you want FM to work none of the above results would have happened yesterday!

EDIT

As for teams turning up one week but not the next you just have to look at Man City from earlier in the month. Down to 10 vs Utd and played really well, next week with 11 they are a shadow of that performance as they can hardly pass the ball vs Liverpool.

Yes but this is a game and if veterans like me and my friend (and countless others, evidently) can't figure out what to do when a gaming-challenge appears, there is no choice but to stop playing. If SI doesn't recognize that randomness, while realistic, is ruining the gaming experience for many many customers then they will soon run into trouble. A computer game cannot generate random output from specific input over time and still retain interest.

Thus, the random output must either be limited or it must be less randomized. A good example is the savegame I told about in #38. Since neither of us can honestly explain why I suddenly have an extreme and consistent advantage over him in our internal matches, the savegame cannot be continued any longer since I would of course beat him in all competitions we both participate in (all of them). So three seasons into the game and maybe a hundred hours of gameplay down the drain because an improved team with an improved tactic performs worse than a worse tactic with a worse team.

I suspect reputation is, as always, the perp - but there is no indication in the game that this is the case, other than him being tipped fourth the first season, second the second season but now first... of natural reasons. Another source of frustration is the way the ME portrays okay or merely good performances contra excellent performances. They look worlds apart but really shouldn't. I was one of those asking for less extreme morale runs and got it, but the whole point of it was to make OK/GOOD performances the norm instead of SUPERB/ABYSMAL. At this, patch 12.1.1 has clearly failed. It is now nearly impossible to maintain superb runs over time, but what we see in 3D is still either awful or amazing.

Yes but this is a game and if veterans like me and my friend (and countless others, evidently) can't figure out what to do when a gaming-challenge appears, there is no choice but to stop playing. If SI doesn't recognize that randomness, while realistic, is ruining the gaming experience for many many customers then they will soon run into trouble. A computer game cannot generate random output from specific input over time and still retain interest.

The day FM turns into a game where following fixed steps = winning a match is the day I stop playing and so will many others.

Picking out single results in isolation means nothing, it's been acknowledged in the thread that teams have an off-day. But in FM when you go on a bad run of form, it isn't just the results, it's the manner of them - usually involving heavy defeats. I can't think of too many teams who have been dominating going on bad runs and losing heavily in most of the games in that streak.

Looking at your examples before yesterday's results I'd say none of them were in great form (Huddersfield were in better than the others though) so I don't see why those results would be deemed massive surprises:

Newcastle lost 2 out of 6 yesterday (last game being that tonking at Fulham, where they were really, really awful);

Hull had lost 3 out of 6 prior to yesterday;

Carlisle had won 2, drawn 4 in their last 6;

Bury won 3, lost 2 and drew 1;

Huddersfield won 4, drew 2 (won their last 3 on the spin though);

Preston won 1, lost 2, drew 3.

The day FM turns into a game where following fixed steps = winning a match is the day I stop playing and so will many others.

The day FM turns into a game where nothing you do have any bearing on the result is the day I stop playing and so will many others... oh wait!

The day FM turns into a game where nothing you do have any bearing on the result is the day I stop playing and so will many others... oh wait!

But thats simply not true is it.

How many times do we see users complaining that a match is "Unwinnable" and yet when it is uploaded every single time someone proves them wrong very quickly.

But thats simply not true is it.

How many times do we see users complaining that a match is "Unwinnable" and yet when it is uploaded every single time someone proves them wrong very quickly.

Yes someone else takes over and suddenly things change. That's not what I said, though. To the person that claims a match is unwinnable, there are no indications available to show him how that is not true. This loss of gaming value is what I talk about - the input does not yield recognizable output. You tell the players this or that, no change, you drop deeper and play narrower etc, no change, you try to substitute some players or reload for a different XI - no change. So what is left?

Nothing, of course.

Hence the "unwinnable" threads. The fact that no match is unwinnable in FM is beside the point. This illusion created by the TC and shouts; that you should adapt to the situation by employing football logic - it is both a curse and a blessing. It is a blessing because SI has created a set of functional parameters and combinations of those that will allow more players to reach the same tactical conclusions that the slider-movers do through trial and error. It is a curse because the mere existence of "supertactics" that can be used in every situation is ample evidence that the TC/shout strategy is all about finding one of numerous "sweet spots" where the players do what you want them to, and has nothing to do with the nature of the match at all. In other words, when you find that your tactic is suddenly not working, what you do when you apply shouts and philosophy/strategy is a search for another tactic that works - you don't actually "outsmart" the AI... You don't even "react" to their tactic!

Cougar it's rare teams IRL go on a brilliant run, are unstoppable and then get hammered without reason and can't buy a win. They may go through a sticky patch but nowhere near as severe as we are talking about, especially at the level we are talking about.

Ummm Google Brisbane Roar...They had gone 36 games unbeaten (More than a season), and then lost 5 straight, and since the streak was broken have gone 1-2-6 through the next 9 games...IRL it DOES happen.

Wow, you sure proved him wrong when you cited an Australian club as the only example to his assertion that it was "rare" to have these things happen!

Yes someone else takes over and suddenly things change. That's not what I said, though. To the person that claims a match is unwinnable, there are no indications available to show him how that is not true. This loss of gaming value is what I talk about - the input does not yield recognizable output. You tell the players this or that, no change, you drop deeper and play narrower etc, no change, you try to substitute some players or reload for a different XI - no change. So what is left?

Nothing, of course.

If somebody else can win the match, then obviously there IS something left. If the player is so focused on winning that match he should go and figure out what. If he can't be arsed he should do what a lot of others would do, accept that bad days happen and move on. There are very good reasons why everyone remembers Arsenal's invincibles or Chelsea paying so much for Villas-Boas after his unbeaten season with Porto. Sometimes stuff just doesn't work out like it should.

Hence the "unwinnable" threads. The fact that no match is unwinnable in FM is beside the point. This illusion created by the TC and shouts; that you should adapt to the situation by employing football logic - it is both a curse and a blessing. It is a blessing because SI has created a set of functional parameters and combinations of those that will allow more players to reach the same tactical conclusions that the slider-movers do through trial and error. It is a curse because the mere existence of "supertactics" that can be used in every situation is ample evidence that the TC/shout strategy is all about finding one of numerous "sweet spots" where the players do what you want them to, and has nothing to do with the nature of the match at all. In other words, when you find that your tactic is suddenly not working, what you do when you apply shouts and philosophy/strategy is a search for another tactic that works - you don't actually "outsmart" the AI... You don't even "react" to their tactic!

Super strategies are existing less and less. Why do you think there are "unwinnable" matches to begin with? If those super tactics really were around you'd never lose right? Also, people just randomly applying new shouts/tactics etc. aren't really doing what this game was supposed to be for right? In the end if you simply want to randomly stuff a bunch of players on the field and randomly give them orders you're randomly gonna lose. I'm quite sure a lot players (and actually a majority of those that are active on the forums) try their best to really react to their opponents and trying to find a way to outplay them, instead of just like you said randomly let the team play wider, drop deeper and telling em to get stuck in, hoping something changes.

Wow, you sure proved him wrong when you cited an Australian club as the only example to his assertion that it was "rare" to have these things happen!

Gotta love these arguments.

Person A: X would never happen!

Person B: Look, X happened right here.

Person A: That one doesn't count! Cuz.. eh.. I say so!

Super strategies are existing less and less. Why do you think there are "unwinnable" matches to begin with? If those super tactics really were around you'd never lose right? Also, people just randomly applying new shouts/tactics etc. aren't really doing what this game was supposed to be for right? In the end if you simply want to randomly stuff a bunch of players on the field and randomly give them orders you're randomly gonna lose. I'm quite sure a lot players (and actually a majority of those that are active on the forums) try their best to really react to their opponents and trying to find a way to outplay them, instead of just like you said randomly let the team play wider, drop deeper and telling em to get stuck in, hoping something changes.

You completely missed the point there. It's not that you make a random tactical move hoping for the best. You try to find a tactical setting that works in the game. No matter how hard SI are trying to eradicate that approach (which majority of users still use), this is still just a PC game and there are still things that work and things that don't. It's really simple as that. Now you can mask it behind "shouts" and convince yourself you're doing what RL managers do, but in fact you're still trying to find that setting that works in the given situation. On top of all, that sweet spot you find is not necessarily a logical move (in real life terms), which just adds to the point of trying to beat the game, not "adapting to the opponent".