Why most tactics are countered by AI after some time?

OK i give an example,i downloaded Balista 4231(very offensive tactic) from tactic sharing centre and this tactic works very good for any team world class or badest ones(people can check this tactic,for me is one of the best).

I was playing as Norwich and in first season i got 7th place while second season i won EPL.I always used same tactic in every match home or away underdog or favourite doesnt matter.Thing is that in third season tactic doesnt work so good,im still 1st place in EPL(mostly because of my defense) but my upfront 4 struggle to play as good as before and they are not so efficient as before meaning they have lesser assists/goals(best example here is amc role where i have Granero and Erikson and they struggle to give 1 assist in 4 matches,while Osvaldo Martinez made for me 20 assist in first season when got 7th place)

Really i dont get it,i have better players on same positions same tactic but players perform worse,where is the logic of this?

I know people will tell that tactics arent "cracked" and teams reevaluate me and play more defensively,but really i tell to this people to go check this tactic thread and see that it works very good for Arsenal when u start game and upfront 4 got crazy stats.If ai could not counter Arsenal in first season why same tactic gets countered in season 3 while playing as Norwich the current champions and having players almost same as good with those of M U,Arsenal,Chelsea?

Do you want to play a game where you win every single game every season without any challenge whatsoever? What's the point of having an A.I. if they can't analyze your tactic and create a counter tactic for it xD. I think one of the best feature of this game (at least against team that are a match for your team, I found that lesser team tend to get rolled over) is when matched against an equal-strength opponents the game could go either way. (that is until I get the first goal, then the A.I. have a tendency to be over aggressive and I got 2nd/3rd+ goal since they their defense open up too much)

You're first and your crying? lol

Maybe it is because other teams now respect you more, they know where your strong points are and close down on your better players??

Just like real life.

But you are first regardless, so stop whining and get on with it.

Its like i dont recognize same tactic that i play since 2 seasons.Suddenly my offensive players struggle to play as good as before and this despite having better players.Is this a logic in this?

Its like i dont recognize same tactic that i play since 2 seasons.Suddenly my offensive players struggle to play as good as before and this despite having better players.Is this a logic in this?

Yes. It's very simple. Because you are a better team with an improved reputation, other clubs will play more defensively against you. Hence, your forwards won't be in as much space and will not play as well as they did when they had the freedom of the pitch.

Tactics do not get cracked. It is all about reputation and expectation.

Yes. It's very simple. Because you are a better team with an improved reputation, other clubs will play more defensively against you. Hence, your forwards won't be in as much space and will not play as well as they did when they had the freedom of the pitch.

Tactics do not get cracked. It is all about reputation and expectation.

Exactly, and I also think there is a hidden player attribute that really effects the way they handle being closed down etc. Maybe your players are not as good as you though.

Osvaldo Martinez in first 2 seasons when tactic worked as it should,32 assists in 45 matches

http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/2436/osvaldomartinez.png

Granero and C.Eriksen in season 3 after won EPL and when tactic somehow starts to loose from his eficiency.Eriksen 2 assists in 13 matches and Granero 0 in 6.

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/2623/eriksen.png

http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/6317/granero.png

All this players play same position,they were used in same role in same tactic as AMC and Martinez did perform much better,while players with better vision like Granero and Eriksen forgot what assist means.And same thing is for AMR/AML but not so dramatically like on AMC.

Honestly if you uses someone else's tactic then you will never understand as to why your player isn't as effective if the opponent close down your offensive players more. Make your own tactic, play the game at extended view in some of your games in the first season you make a new tactic so you can see what works and what doesn't. By second season you'll know what the opponent does to stifle your offense and you'll can try ways to work around it... but until you actually understand what your own tactic do (and you never will if you uses others) then you won't be able to counter opponents tactic. You can always borrow other players' tactic again I suppose...

The AI never 'cracks' tactics. However, there can be changes when teams start sitting back and counter-attacking you, if they weren't doing that before.

OP, are you reading any of the replies?

WWfan said something about reputation but what has to do reputation in this equation.I saw in forum that some people were complaining about having better results when playing as Arsenal,Barcelona comparing with Porto,Valencia,SLB etc (lower reputation teams) while having actually same players.This is ridicoulos really and is nonsense and reputation impact should be reduced or nulified.

Reputation makes a huge difference. Do you think Man City players approach playing Man Utd and Stoke the same way? Barcelona approach playing Real Madrid, or some small club in the CL the same way?

Honestly if you uses someone else's tactic then you will never understand as to why your player isn't as effective if the opponent close down your offensive players more. Make your own tactic, play the game at extended view in some of your games in the first season you make a new tactic so you can see what works and what doesn't. By second season you'll know what the opponent does to stifle your offense and you'll can try ways to work around it... but until you actually understand what your own tactic do (and you never will if you uses others) then you won't be able to counter opponents tactic. You can always borrow other players' tactic again I suppose...

I prefer to play other tactics because "having control" on tactics is an ilussion.In actual format U cannot control your tactics and is about to get the right sliders and this is mostly about luck and randomess.

For example i want a tactic where a target man comes deep to hold ball while teams advanced with wingers crossing offen to his head.Can u deliver this ?I doubt it really...

Reputation makes a huge difference. Do you think Man City players approach playing Man Utd and Stoke the same way? Barcelona approach playing Real Madrid, or some small club in the CL the same way?

So better reputation is an excuse for C.Eriksen to give 2 assists in 13 matches and Granero 0 in 6?Even if so this impact is too big really and its getting ridicoulos.

So better reputation is an excuse for C.Eriksen to give 2 assists in 13 matches and Granero 0 in 6?Even if so this impact is too big really and its getting ridicoulos.

Why not try tweaking the downloaded tactic, these tactics can be improved to fit your players better. You are top with Norwich the season after winning the league, I cannot see why you are moaning.

How far into the season are you? These players are new signings aren't they?

xD Bebetu it's a computer game... as it is it's all about chance. Changing around the sliders in tactic section increases/decreases the CHANCE of your specific instruction to be carried out, but it will never be a 100% chance. The tactic is there for you to adjust on how you want your player to behave, but the main thing that will effect of how your player carry your instruction will be his attributes and preferred moves, the tactic will try to adjust this but the success will vary. You could do a target man scenario by having a good target man (strong, good balance, decent technique) but he will also need a teammate nearby for him to make short pass to in case he got too much pressure... In real life you can't expect for any one player to keep hold of the ball indefinitely, this game reflect it rather finely I thought

Think about it though. For teams going up against Barcelona its like a cup final every time they play them. They are going to enter the match with thoughts of "we are going to defend, defend defend, mark our men tightly and do our best to not concede. If we don't concede we have a chance of stealing a win. THEY are the team approaching the game differently. THEY are the team playing Barcelona (or your team) out of the game (or trying too). In your case what appears to be happening, is they are playing your team out of the game with effective marking and defense, and not allowing your players to get the assists or goals they were. YOU have to adapt your tactics to counter their more defensive tactics that they are now using against you now your reputation has risen and they expect you to hammer them...

For example i want a tactic where a target man comes deep to hold ball while teams advanced with wingers crossing offen to his head.Can u deliver this ?I doubt it really...

I could have a crack with the tactics creator, in fact that's not dissimilar to how I try to play the game myself. What you need to understand though is that football involves constantly adapting to what is going on on the field. And - a lot of people never really understand this - it's not like arcade football games, where just by wiggling your mouse or control pad you can get the result you want every time. The AI players and your players are equal in the eyes of the simulator, and they have a tactical approach, just as your own players. And the opposition are always moving to intercept, tackle, counter, and pull your players out of position. As a result good players will have to adapt.You can try lowering creative freedom to stop them, but doing so would hurt your performances. If the AI is able to stop or counter your Plan A, it's better for your players to try Plan B, C, or D, even if it doesn't come off.

The AI does not under any circumstances "crack" your tactic. You can win anything with almost any tactic without changing it if your players are good enough.

What actually happens is that the AI becomes a lot more careful against you - they change how their team plays just because of how well you do.

These new tactics often point out the flaws in your tactics that your success was hiding.

Look at the teams that played Manchester City at the beginning of the season, as soon as they beat United 1-6 those teams started being a lot more careful and defensive at home against them and City's away form started to deteriorate because they couldn't break teams down anymore.

As others have said, the way the AI approaches the game essentially comes down to the difference in reputation between their team and yours. If their rep is much higher, they'll play attacking football, if it's lower, they'll play defensive. As Norwich, you start off with one of the lowest reputations in the league. As such, the top teams will go pretty much full on attacking, while even mid-table opposition will play more aggressively. Now, I don't know the particular tactic you're using, but my guess is that it works very well against teams that attack you (whether intentionally or not*), and as such you dramatically overperform. By the second season, your reputation will have increased some, but it will still be relatively low, as your success could've been a fluke. Thus, most of the teams will still look to attack you, and your tactics can take advantage of this. By the third season, your reputation will have further increased, and while it's still probably not up the level of the top clubs, it's enough to make much of the league think twice about going out to attack. Instead, AI teams will set out more defensively, cutting off space for your forwards, and possibly midfield, limiting your ability to score. The defense working well supports this - if the opposition aren't attacking as much, it's easier to keep clean sheets.

Now, that's not to say that every tactic will eventually get "found out" in this way. Some can deal with the opposition changing mentality quite well - and indeed, from the sounds of things, your tactic still works, just not as well. But generally, if you're overperforming because of your tactics (as opposed to player quality and/or motivation), it's likely you'll experience some level of performance drop when your reputation catches up with your success due to the difference in the way the AI will approach the games.

*as a random adage, I often find that the tactics I make to try and exploit attacking opponents don't, and those I build to try and break down defensive teams through patient build-up get 35% possession and win 3-0...

The AI adapting to your rep makes sense in theory, but in a thread I made I was Chelsea who had the same high rep all the time I managed them. It wasn't until 9 years into the game that my tactics stopped working. If the AI wasn't playing more defensively does that mean it took 9 years to decide to start attacking me?

The AI adapting to your rep makes sense in theory, but in a thread I made I was Chelsea who had the same high rep all the time I managed them. It wasn't until 9 years into the game that my tactics stopped working. If the AI wasn't playing more defensively does that mean it took 9 years to decide to start attacking me?

Yours is a different issue. Not the same thing at all and likely to confuse things if discussed in this thread.

Yours is a different issue. Not the same thing at all and likely to confuse things if discussed in this thread.

It could establish that it may not always be the AI adapting to a changing reputation though, that's all I was trying to get at.

In this case, it almost certainly is. Your issue is a far less common one.

To be fair, the OP has acknowledged the effect of increasing reputation and the realism of opponents adjusting their tactics and approach accordingly.

But he raises a fairly valid point that his tactics have become ineffective / less effective now that his mediocre team have become successful and more respected (despite now having better players), yet these same tactics work for teams with big reputations and good players at the start of the game. - ie if the tactics work for high rep teams then why won't they work for his team now they are high rep?

What is the difference between Barcelona at the start of the game and his Norwich team now? Both clubs have high reps and good players, so why should the tactics work for one and not the other if reputation is the essential reason for his tactics now failing?

To be fair, the OP has acknowledged the effect of increasing reputation and the realism of opponents adjusting their tactics and approach accordingly.

But he raises a fairly valid point that his tactics have become ineffective / less effective now that his mediocre team have become successful and more respected (despite now having better players), yet these same tactics work for teams with big reputations and good players at the start of the game. - ie if the tactics work for high rep teams then why won't they work for his team now they are high rep?

What is the difference between Barcelona at the start of the game and his Norwich team now? Both clubs have high reps and good players, so why should the tactics work for one and not the other if reputation is the essential reason for his tactics now failing?

Because there are many other factors. For example:

1: Spanish teams in La Liga are, in general, a little weaker than their English counterparts, whereas the top two are stronger. Consequently, the difference in quality between Barca and the mid-table sides will be greater than the OP is experiencing.

2: Barca's squad will be fully gelled and highly disciplined. The OP has brought in a number of new faces, who will need time to adjust to the tactic.

3: Barca will usually play in good weather conditions. Norwich will have to deal with heavier pitches and adverse conditions. These are likely to bog the tactic down.

4: Pre-match routines, such as man and media interaction, and team talks, have some influence on proceedings. It might be that the OP Is not very good in these areas of the game, which will result in some underperformance.

However, the key factor will be the reputation increase.

However, the key factor will be the reputation increase.

But as the OP said, it's a very offensive tactic so it should become more effective the higher his rep gets surely?

No, because everybody will be sitting deep and reducing final third space, which will make it more difficult for him to score. He'd have been doing well previously by exploiting the gaps in the final third in more open games.

A common observation with these "super-tactics" is they rely on one specific outlet to score. Once the opposition plugs that hole, then the tactic has no second option. If everybody is sitting back, the hole will likely be plugged.

No, because everybody will be sitting deep and reducing final third space, which will make it more difficult for him to score. He'd have been doing well previously by exploiting the gaps in the final third in more open games.

A common observation with these "super-tactics" is they rely on one specific outlet to score. Once the opposition plugs that hole, then the tactic has no second option. If everybody is sitting back, the hole will likely be plugged.

But as the game itself points out, the way to play against teams who sit back is to play very offensively. If you start out with an offensive tactic then by FM's own logic it should become more effective the more teams sit back.

Does it state that definitively, or does it make a suggestion about how you might approach breaking down such a tactic? I'd be very wary about following FM's hints and tips without caution, as some are very outdated.

Look at it logically. If you are pushing everybody forward, as an offensive tactic is wont to do, and the opposition is sitting very deep, the final third will be hugely congested. You might break them down through the sheer bombardment, but it is going to be as much by luck as anything else. If the team sits really deep, the key is to play patient football, bide your time, draw them out, then take advantage of the tiny bit of extra space when it opens up.

Does it state that definitively, or does it make a suggestion about how you might approach breaking down such a tactic? I'd be very wary about following FM's hints and tips without caution, as some are very outdated.

Look at it logically. If you are pushing everybody forward, as an offensive tactic is wont to do, and the opposition is sitting very deep, the final third will be hugely congested. You might break them down through the sheer bombardment, but it is going to be as much by luck as anything else. If the team sits really deep, the key is to play patient football, bide your time, draw them out, then take advantage of the tiny bit of extra space when it opens up.

Why should only the human player have to deal with this though? As the OP states, when Arsenal play the same tactic they have great success. Surely if this tactic won't work against defensive teams, and most teams play defensively against Arsenal because of their rep, then how is it working? Assuming the AI has to play by the same rules as the human player that is.

AI teams can't be using this tactic as it is user created. So, if Arsenal are doing well with it, it will be under human manager control. As suggested in post # 28, there can be many reasons why the OP isn't doing as well as other users employing the same tactic. Whereas the tactic's inability to break down a massed defence is arguably the core issue, all these other, and more, factors come into play.

He is also still 1st in the EPL with Norwich, so it is not as if everything has suddenly collapsed from under him.

they have been countering my blackpool teams in terms of away, even flaming bradford have 100% shots to goals ratio in a cup game and i had to win in ET..

yet i have scraped 1-0's at home i still tear teams apart, even barcalona with my quick passing and movement (like barca, like swansea, like arsenal of old.. but with shooting on goal ) and throw in a bit of stoke style set piece scoring (that includes the fantastic bullet throws)

AI teams can't be using this tactic as it is user created. So, if Arsenal are doing well with it, it will be under human manager control. As suggested in post # 28, there can be many reasons why the OP isn't doing as well as other users employing the same tactic. Whereas the tactic's inability to break down a massed defence is arguably the core issue, all these other, and more, factors come into play.

He is also still 1st in the EPL with Norwich, so it is not as if everything has suddenly collapsed from under him.

Fair enough, but, and I'm not trying to trip you up or anything, the part of FM that says to attack a defensive, lower rep team, is in the tactic wizard, not hits and tips. It mentions using "attacking" when expecting to dominate possession in your opponent's half, and that your attacking players will look for space. This sounds like the ideal way to try to break down a "massed defence" as you put it. It sounds like you're saying this is wrong, if so what chance does a new player have when the game itself is giving them false information?

Which I wrote :o

The problem with this type of information is the lack of space to make it truly meaningful. I'd hold that the statement is true until you get right into the top echelons of the game and play, week in, week out, against good players sitting deep. You then need to become a little more patient, as mistakes will be fewer and the possibility of catching you on the counter greater.

I tend to stop using the more aggressive strategies once I've established myself as a top team in a top division. I do use them as occasional go tos when the match situation requires a very aggressive approach, but I never start with them. In contrast, I often play more aggressively in the lower levels, as you often require that type of mentality to get the goals, simply because a more patient, technical approach comes unstuck. At the very top level, the opposite is required. Unfortunately, the text box in the tactic creator doesn't provide quite enough space to explain all of this.

Which I wrote :o

The problem with this type of information is the lack of space to make it truly meaningful. I'd hold that the statement is true until you get right into the top echelons of the game and play, week in, week out, against good players sitting deep. You then need to become a little more patient, as mistakes will be fewer and the possibility of catching you on the counter greater.

I tend to stop using the more aggressive strategies once I've established myself as a top team in a top division. I do use them as occasional go tos when the match situation requires a very aggressive approach, but I never start with them. In contrast, I often play more aggressively in the lower levels, as you often require that type of mentality to get the goals, simply because a more patient, technical approach comes unstuck. At the very top level, the opposite is required. Unfortunately, the text box in the tactic creator doesn't provide quite enough space to explain all of this.

Seriously though, how does anyone learn this stuff on their own if they've got a life? I've never known any game actually give you false information to make it more difficult!

to break up a well packed defence is to force the defenders out. which justifes a more controled approach

So essentially all the in game "help" is meaningless and new players have to either ascend an insanely steep learning curve, or consult the community, which often contains some very involved, and sometimes quite gamey answers? Good job on making the game more accessible to new players SI!

Seriously though, how does anyone learn this stuff on their own if they've got a life? I've never known any game actually give you false information to make it more difficult!

It is not false information. It is true up to a very sophisticated point. You have to put some effort and thought into winning top flight titles. It can't simply be as easy as 'attack with good players and win EPL'.

It can't simply be as easy as 'attack with good players and win EPL'.

But thats been my philosophy for years :o

Haven't changed my tactic once, and I'm in 2017 now. If anything, my team has become even more dominant.

it is that easy.

my top scorers have been sanogo, and welbeck.

i have used many formations, keeps things fresh

But thats been my philosophy for years :o

Mine too, always worked in previous FM's. Shankley said "football is a simple game complicated by idiot's". Attack with good players should be a good strategy.

Real Madrid tried that approach with the Galactico's. Went three years without a league title, that evetually came from a slightly more pragmatic approach.

Even now Barcelona dont just attack with the best player, Guardiola does an immense amount of preparation, and is always ready to tweak the approach.

It isnt always the be and end all, and you have to be ready to adapt

Mine too, always worked in previous FM's. Shankley said "football is a simple game complicated by idiot's". Attack with good players should be a good strategy.

Attack with good players is a good strategy. However, there are alternate ways of playing that can help when it is unable to break down a massed defence.

Attack with good players is a good strategy. However, there are alternate ways of playing that can help when it is unable to break down a massed defence.

Do you think it is harder to break down the defence on FM12 than on previous FM's?

On FM10 and FM11 a 4-4-2 with advanced wingers constantly attacking seemed to bring huge success at least it did in my experiences. Seems a lot harder to do that on FM12 especially once you gain a bit of success. I never changed tactics in anyway on FM11 and had great success with Sunderland by simply overloading the opposition for 15 plus seasons. It does not seem as easy to do on FM12.

Not moaning by the way just asking what you think.

Do you think it is harder to break down the defence on FM12 than on previous FM's?

On FM10 and FM11 a 4-4-2 with advanced wingers constantly attacking seemed to bring huge success at least it did in my experiences. Seems a lot harder to do that on FM12 especially once you gain a bit of success. I never changed tactics in anyway on FM11 and had great success with Sunderland by simply overloading the opposition for 15 plus seasons. It does not seem as easy to do on FM12.

Not moaning by the way just asking what you think.

Two things have been slightly modified.

1: It is harder to convert corners, so you are far less likely to get a win simply through set piece deliveries. This has slightly reduced header accuracy, which means it is more difficult to convert crosses.

2: The full backs don't push up quite so aggressively, meaning they won't get skinned as much by wingers.

Both would reduce the overall effectiveness of wing play. The other changes mainly help AI managers to develop better match strategies in terms of opposition shape and weather / pitch conditions.

From my perspective is simple,most people wants to play with 1 single tactic made it by them by watching,observing,tweaking,gambling with sliders during hundreds of hours (or by downloading one for those who are lazy like my case) ,and after that to enjothe game.Funs go away if tactic suddenly loose consistency and u dont recognize your tactic anymore.By using better players tactic should get also better,and is ilogical to become worse without solid reason.And indeed this tactic works very good with top teams such Arsenal,Barcelona and is no need for a "control" aproach.My Norwich team is geting close to such teams as value or reputation so it should still work like a charm.

From my perspective is simple,most people wants to play with 1 single tactic made it by them by watching,observing,tweaking,gambling with sliders during hundreds of hours (or by downloading one for those who are lazy like my case) ,and after that to enjothe game.Funs go away if tactic suddenly loose consistency and u dont recognize your tactic anymore.By using better players tactic should get also better,and is ilogical to become worse without solid reason.And indeed this tactic works very good with top teams such Arsenal,Barcelona and is no need for a "control" aproach.My Norwich team is geting close to such teams as value or reputation so it should still work like a charm.

You need to be very careful making statements with no evidence to back them up, or you'll get jumped on. The last thing I want to do is spend hundred of hours fiddling with sliders to make a perfect tactic. I get much more satisfaction putting together a set of three tactics in about 5-10 minutes, then adjusting them pre and in game to deal with the conditions and situations. I'd hate to go back to al the micro-slider tweaking of previous games in the series.

As for your second point, it has already been explained to death in the thread. If the final third is congested because the other team is siting back, then it is harder to score. Football 101. Nothing illogical in that at all. In the real world there are no magic tactics that guarantee wins. Nor should there be in FM. Sometimes you will need a different approach, If you aren't able / can't be bothered to find / learn one, then it is your problem, not ours.