I just can't break defensive teams away from home

[mister.cool40]

Seems when the AI decides to put men behind ball it is nigh impossible to score.I seem to have good movements on and off the ball but in the box the AI defenders are way too aggressive and gobbles up any smidget of space my team conjures up.I have tried so many things and am spent for ideas. I tried low block and hitting them on the counter but as 1v1 are so unreliable my forwards keep missing the 1-3 chances I create and end up having low rating and bad games.Using a high press just congests all the space.I played with width,early cross but nothing works.   I just go to these away games praying I get a set piece and the opposition doesn't score on the 1 or 2 shots they produce all match.

My I have excellent players and predicted to win the league but I just mostly draw or lose away  matches against these inferior teams and end up losing the league.I however won the UCL twice in last two years as the teams there leave lots of space.

I use team mentality positive or attacking.The winger on the left is asked to Hold position.The TI are not fixed as I tried many combinations (each tested for a reasonable number of matches)  but to no success.

[crusadertsar]

Welcome to FM20 

[mister.cool40]

1 minute ago, crusadertsar said:

Welcome to FM20 

Having the same problem as well?

 

[crusadertsar]

6 minutes ago, mister.cool40 said:

Having the same problem as well?

 

Me and alot of other people on the forum. Just look through the threads. You have to have a certain aggression in your approach now to succeed. You cannot expect to simply break down defesive sides through patient buildup. For that reason I would be curious to see your tactical instructions. Are you perhaps giving AI too much time to organize their parked bus.

[mister.cool40]

4 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Me and alot of other people on the forum. Just look through the threads. You have to have a certain aggression in your approach now to succeed. You cannot expect to simply break down defesive sides through patient buildup. For that reason I would be curious to see your tactical instructions. Are you perhaps giving AI too much time to organize their parked bus.

High Press Setup 

[mister.cool40]

10 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Me and alot of other people on the forum. Just look through the threads. You have to have a certain aggression in your approach now to succeed. You cannot expect to simply break down defesive sides through patient buildup. For that reason I would be curious to see your tactical instructions. Are you perhaps giving AI too much time to organize their parked bus.

Low Press Setup...also playing narrow to invite the fullbacks and hit the on the flanks

[crusadertsar]

Unless you are playing as an underdog or in Lower League you are always going to have a hard time. I tend to play as high reputation clubs for all my saves in FM20 so I've been facing this problem since day one with the game.

[mister.cool40]

1 minute ago, crusadertsar said:

Unless you are playing as an underdog or in Lower League you are always going to have a hard time. I tend to play as high reputation clubs for all my saves in FM20 so I've been facing this problem since day one with the game.

How do you cope? I managed Arsenal for the first 12 seasons and won 6 league titles....Now I am managing Bayern and haven't won the league for past 5 years.I don't remember how I managed it in my Arsenal years but seems that I forgot how to break down teams away from home.

[crusadertsar]

15 minutes ago, mister.cool40 said:

High Press Setup 

Your high press setup looks pretty good. Except maybe get rid of Play out of Defence as I am starting to realize it gives too much time to the opposition to prepare their defences. I used to be a big supporter of play out of defence too but now starting to realize that it's actually part of the problem. It seems counterintuitive for possession style tactics but it is what it is I tell my sweeper keeper to distort to CBs and wingbacks instead.

Edited August 8, 2020 by crusadertsar

[crusadertsar]

And I wouldn't even bother with low block. You are Bayern, nobody will be drawn forward by it. They will just continue sitting back and be happy you are not pressing them . So the game will end in another draw.

[crusadertsar]

4 minutes ago, mister.cool40 said:

How do you cope? I managed Arsenal for the first 12 seasons and won 6 league titles....Now I am managing Bayern and haven't won the league for past 5 years.I don't remember how I managed it in my Arsenal years but seems that I forgot how to break down teams away from home.

The patches changed some dynamics. It used to be much easier to break teams down earlier in FM20 life. To cope? You just have to make sure you have good penetration from all strata of the tactic like the midfield and wingbacks and just try to stretch the field and flood AI zone, like 2-3-5 in possession style. And not to be too slow in transition. Fast transitions are key in this game. It's just pretty hard to achieve that without going too direct.

[mister.cool40]

Just now, crusadertsar said:

Your high press setup looks pretty good. Exact maybe get rid of Play out of Defence as I am starting to realize it gives too much time to the opposition to prepare their defences. I used to be a big supporter of play out of defence too but now starting to realize that it's actually part of the problem. It seems counterintuitive for possession style tactics but it is what it is I tell my sweeper keeper to distort to CBs and wingbacks instead.

Good idea...I also noticed it in the last few games as I was testing setups to break Hamburg(17 th ) away.Once they get into position there is just no way to hurt them.Will try though

[dekzeh]

Just a few thoughts, when you're at the very top the AI is happy to defend with the whole team and play for a draw, even completely giving up on the option of counter attacking, at most they'll have one player upfront. You don't ever really need 3 players defending, the DM is almost useless. Two world class CBs, which you probably have, are enough to deal with the defending duties, and the extra body forwards helps. If you insist on the 433, get a DM that is more active in the final third, a DLP-Su is a good shout or if you feel you can be super aggressive even a Regista. I prefer a 4-2-3-1 because the extra body upfront helps with the pressing, and stops them passing between the CBs for the whole game. This only really becomes an issue if you face a 4-4-2 or a 3-5-2 where both strikers are on Attack duty, so pay attention for that.

 

Second: be good at set pieces. Like really good. As sad as this is, this is by far the most effective way of breaking down teams. If you get an early corner goal or indirect free kick goal they'll crumble and the game should be a walk in the park, So get tall, strong, aggressive players. This also helps with defending, as this is the only way those teams can ever be threatening to you. This will avoid a lot of the 'oh no I got 30 shots and my opp gets one set piece goal to win 1-0' moments people complain about a lot.

Edited August 8, 2020 by dekzeh

[crusadertsar]

@dekzeh Very good advice. But this basically brings to the forefront the two things I hate about this game. How much importance it puts on set pieces. And I simply loathe set pieces. Before FM20 I would never even set them up. I still don't most of the time. And now I cannot win without them. And second, how ineffective 4-1-4-1 Wide, my favourite formation since Fm14, had been made by this game. It's become a good formation when you want to defend and not to score goals. Which is just not true when you look back at some of the greatest teams in history like Guardiola's Barcelona or 1970s Ajax.

Edited August 8, 2020 by crusadertsar

[dekzeh]

Just now, crusadertsar said:

@dekzeh Very good advice. But this basically brings to the forefront the two things I hate about this game. How much importance it put on set pieces. I hate set pieces and before would never even set them up. And now I cannot win without them. And second, how ineffective 4-1-4-1 Wide, my favourite formation since Fm14, had been made by this game. It's become a good formation when you want to defend and not to score goals. Which is just not true when you look back at some of the greatest teams in history like Guardiola's Barcelona or 1970s Ajax.

Oh, I absolutely agree. My comment is just on 'what to do if you want to win', I by no means am happy that the game is this way. The 4-1-4-1 really is not a good fit for top clubs, which is just ridiculous. 

[crusadertsar]

When played right 4-1-4-1 Wide or 4-3-3 can be the most balanced formation to defend and attack. And to win against any opposition really. So something is definitely wrong here. But what can we do . It's just a game afterall and not real football. Just have to remind myself. Need to have fun and not to get drawn into the frustrating cycle of micromanaging each game.

Edited August 8, 2020 by crusadertsar

[mister.cool40]

3 minutes ago, dekzeh said:

ust a few thoughts, when you're at the very top the AI is happy to defend with the whole team and play for a draw, even completely giving up even on the option of counter attacking, at most they'll have one player upfront. You don't ever really need 3 players defending, the DM is almost useless. Two world class CBs, which you probably have, are enough to deal with the defending duties, and the extra body forwards helps. If you insist on the 433, get a DM that is more active in the final third, a DLP-Su is a good shout or if you feel you can be super aggressive even a Regista. I prefer a 4-2-3-1 because the extra body upfront helps with the pressing, and stops them passing between the CBs for the whole game. This only really becomes an issue if you face a 4-4-2 or a 3-5-2 where both strikers are on Attack duty, so pay attention for that.

I tried DLP (su ) in DM strata and B2B + Mezzala in CM ...but the results are not really that different .Maybe going 4231 and kick the hell out of opposition might be a better option,enabling me to win the ball at good positions.I haven't tried that yet.Just the idea of changing formation and readjusting players for the set pieces  gives me nightmares.But will give a try though.

[mister.cool40]

@crusadertsar @dekzeh So we can all agree on this FM version has been a little frustrating and not all fault of tactics? I went back to FM 18 few days back to try y same tactic.While the results are better and the games are more entertaining ,in terms of aesthetics (not referring to graphical fidelity) the game looks like a few cartoon characters are just moving around.But while FM 20 sometimes can be borefest, the football and movement looks closer to a real game of football. Hopefully the next versions of FM addresses some of this issues and we can get a entertaining and enjoyable game.

[Experienced Defender]

When one's tactical approach (or approach to the game in general) is wrong, any formation will be "wrong" (not just 4141dm wide). Just sayin' 

I mean, I've been listening to this kind of pointless complaints in every single iteration of FM. And every time we keep hearing that "an earlier FM was better", even though that earlier one was criticized back then as much as the current version. I have no doubt at all that FM21 is going to experience the same levels of criticism, no matter how improved it will be. 

Yeah, it's never the tactic. Only the "broken ME" 

[mister.cool40]

23 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

When one's tactical approach (or approach to the game in general) is wrong, any formation will be "wrong" (not just 4141dm wide). Just sayin' 

I mean, I've been listening to this kind of pointless complaints in every single iteration of FM. And every time we keep hearing that "an earlier FM was better", even though that earlier one was criticized back then as much as the current version. I have no doubt at all that FM21 is going to experience the same levels of criticism, no matter how improved it will be. 

Yeah, it's never the tactic. Only the "broken ME" 

If way too many people are getting their tactics wrong despite of a Perfect ME,maybe there is something wrong somewhere?

[pheelf]

Sometimes it feels like I'm playing a completely different game.

Yes, there are issues with the ME but even at their worst they have never prevented me from being able to consistently beat teams who set up defensively especially if they are much weaker than my team. That's not to say I don't get the odd freak result against an underdog team but that really is a once in a blue moon event. I'm no expert so if I can do it then I see no reason why others can't.

Looking at the tactic itself, there are a few things lacking in my view.

- Very little penetration through the middle.

- Apart from your winger, wingback, central defender and defensive midfielder, the remaining 7 players are all playmaker types which knocks the system out of balance in my view.

- I don't like the DLF(A) as a lone striker as for me a deep lying forward needs someone ahead of him to play the ball to even on the attack duty. In your system there is nobody ahead of him or looking to run in behind centrally so he isn't able to contribute in the way he should. Unless you have an exceptional player who can beat 2 or 3 men every time he gets the ball and can create his own goals against defensive opposition then he is going to have a rough time of it. You have a lot of creative players behind him, why does he need to be in a role which also is designed to create?

What was the reason behind getting your left winger to Hold Position? Why would playing a high press restrict the space of your players?

Maybe it might be better if you don't keep changing things hoping to stumble upon something which works and instead base your changes on what you are observing.

Cheers

Edited August 8, 2020 by pheelf

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, mister.cool40 said:

If way too many people are getting their tactics wrong despite of a Perfect ME,maybe there is something wrong somewhere?

Who said the ME is "perfect"?

But anyway, keep believing that the ME is responsible for tactical failures if that will make you feel better. Maybe SI really create a "perfect" ME for FM21, so there won't be problems anymore 

[HUNT3R]

Anyway, it's possible to break teams down. Tactically, as @pheelf pointed out, there are issues with just how much of an problem you are for the opposition. The DLP is reserved. So is the Winger with his PI. That's just the roles and duties.

Looking at the instructions, it gets worse. With Overlap Right, now even the IF won't make forward runs. Strange TI as the overlap is already, naturally there.

So, to sum up, you have two players really causing a problem for the defense and I may even add the DR, so possibly three. Against a packed defence? You'll struggle. You're largely just playing in front of them.

You need multiple threats from more than one area. We can blame the ME all we want, but (as this IS the tactical section, after all) - tactically, this is poor against a packed defence. We haven't even gone into analysing just who gets picked, if the position and role/duty suits what you want to do and whether they help or hinder the objective of breaking down a parked bus.

I have my doubts that counter pressing is the answer against truly defensive sides, but that's more of my own mission at this point and I'm not missing the instruction when ripping defenses apart so far.

If you want to have a tactical discussion around this issue, by all means. If this is just a ME rant, then it will get closed.

[mister.cool40]

23 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Who said the ME is "perfect"?

But anyway, keep believing that the ME is responsible for tactical failures if that will make you feel better. Maybe SI really create a "perfect" ME for FM21, so there won't be problems anymore 

And who said "it's never the tactic" ? I am not claiming my tactic to be perfect.But if it works against defensive teams at home it should work away.If the home advantage is no more than slight that is.It just makes no sense in home almost anything works and in away matches even the slightest tactical issues make tactic  useless.

[Fatkidscantjump]

il y a 41 minutes, mister.cool40 a dit :

And who said "it's never the tactic" ? I am not claiming my tactic to be perfect.But if it works against defensive teams at home it should work away.If the home advantage is no more than slight that is.It just makes no sense in home almost anything works and in away matches even the slightest tactical issues make tactic  useless.

Yes exactly that ! To me it's not about losing or winning, it's about the consistency. AI Teams seems to use wonky tactics when they play away so you can get easy wins at home. In one of my saves I would dominate big teams at Home and they would dominate me Away. So it was kinda frustrating because It was really hard to track actual progress in my tactic. Kinda ruined the game for me.
I would've been happy to struggle much more at Home too ! It's not about the game being too hard. It's that the difficulty is inconsistent. Well at least thats what my few saves in FM20 have been for me. I went back to FM19 and it was way different. But also way easier which gets boring quickly.

[mister.cool40]

37 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

Looking at the instructions, it gets worse. With Overlap Right, now even the IF won't make forward runs. Strange TI as the overlap is already, naturally there.

Maybe the interface needs to be dumbed down somewhat? The individual player mentality says His mentality is attacking.If I can't expect a player with "attacking mentality" to make forward runs then what does this label mean anyways?

 

44 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

The DLP is reserved.

Why is that? the DLP(su) ,AP (su),RPM (su ) all have Positive mentality with more risky passes.Their positioning/OTB movement may be different,but in terms of passing all 3 should be same . And as it is an overlapping flank, his positioning should be a bit reserved.At least that makes sense.

 

55 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

You need multiple threats from more than one area

Yes of course.But however most of the time I guess good roles/duty combination achieve  good transitions.But what about when the team is NOT in transition?Like this below.And I expect most of the time to find myself in this type of position(camping in the opposition half).What difference does it make if  the AML/AMR are in different roles and duties in this scenario because they are occupying the same position in this phase of play? Just because the IF  is on support duty does that mean he would not attack the any ball that would come in his way?And also with the position left winger occupying I would expect him to attack any crosses the WBR puts even if he is on support duty.Or would he think Nah I am on support duty so I shouldn't attack the ball.  (With hold position I expected my winger to hold his position near the touchline so to stretch the defence but he is not doing so)

[mister.cool40]

4 minutes ago, Fatkidscantjump said:

Yes exactly that ! To me it's not about losing or winning, it's about the consistency. AI Teams seems to use wonky tactics when they play away so you can get easy wins at home. In one of my saves I would dominate big teams at Home and they would dominate me Away. So it was kinda frustrating because It was really hard to track actual progress in my tactic. Kinda ruined the game for me.
I would've been happy to struggle much more at Home too ! It's not about the game being too hard. It's that the difficulty is inconsistent. Well at least thats what my few saves in FM20 have been for me. I went back to FM19 and it was way different. But also way easier which gets boring quickly.

Hard to know if tactic is working or not as they behave differently is home vs away matches. And to be honest the home away difficulty curve was present for me even dating back to FM 16.I think it has always been a feature of FM but I don't know for sure as I didn't play anything before FM 16.

[wixxi]

6 hours ago, mister.cool40 said:

@crusadertsar @dekzeh So we can all agree on this FM version has been a little frustrating and not all fault of tactics? I went back to FM 18 few days back to try y same tactic.While the results are better and the games are more entertaining ,in terms of aesthetics (not referring to graphical fidelity) the game looks like a few cartoon characters are just moving around.But while FM 20 sometimes can be borefest, the football and movement looks closer to a real game of football. Hopefully the next versions of FM addresses some of this issues and we can get a entertaining and enjoyable game.

Have also been playing some FM18 recently and (for me personally) it has been a pretty enjoyable experience, much more diversity in terms of ME events and all sorts of lovely goals being scored

[crusadertsar]

27 minutes ago, wixxi said:

Have also been playing some FM18 recently and (for me personally) it has been a pretty enjoyable experience, much more diversity in terms of ME events and all sorts of lovely goals being scored

For me its been FM17 recently. Very refreshing

[Experienced Defender]

17 hours ago, mister.cool40 said:

And who said "it's never the tactic" ? I am not claiming my tactic to be perfect

That remark was not directed at you personally. I've read so many comments by people claiming their tactics don't work because the "ME is broken", even though their tactics were completely senseless. Again, nothing to do with you and your tactic (which is not ideal, but is still pretty decent in some respects). My reaction was provoked by bold claims in this thread pointing once again to the ME as the main culprit for tactical issues. 

 

18 hours ago, mister.cool40 said:

But if it works against defensive teams at home it should work away.If the home advantage is no more than slight that is.It just makes no sense in home almost anything works and in away matches even the slightest tactical issues make tactic  useless

I cannot know the exact reason why a certain tactic works at home and does not work in away games, because it's not my tactic and my save, although the home vs. away factor is not irrelevant in football (both real-life and FM). However, I am still struggling to understand why on earth a thing like that should have to do anything with the ME as such. 

[crusadertsar]

@Experienced Defender again I don't think anyone was suggesting that ME is broken, but don't you think the defender balance is a bit skewed? Like every underdog defending like they are prime Barca? You can't deny something changed as I never saw so many "help break down defences" and "how to make 4-1-4-1 wide work" threads on here. Have you? I have been on here for a couple of years as you can see in my profile. It's cool if it's simply to make the game more challenging. I like challenge, but I also like balance and fairness. Not all of us are tactical geniuses to be able to break down these sides 

[Experienced Defender]

4 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

again I don't think anyone was suggesting that ME is broken, but don't you think the defender balance is a bit skewed?

"Defender balance" ??? 

 

5 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Like every underdog defending like they are prime Barca? You can't deny something changed as I never saw so many "help break down defences" and "how to make 4-1-4-1 wide work" threads on here. Have you?

I've seen a myriad of such threads since FM18 (when I joined this forum). When it comes to formations, I remember a lot more people complaining that they struggle with a 4231 than 4141dm wide. 

 

9 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

I have been on here for a couple of years as you can see in my profile. It's cool if it's simply to make the game more challenging. I like challenge, but I also like balance and fairness. Not all of us are tactical geniuses to be able to break down these sides

It's a bit strange that this kind of comment is coming from you, given that you have a number of very popular threads in this tactical forum which seem to have helped many people with their tactics (at least according to their feedback on those threads you created). I thought you were considered one of the more tactically proficient people here. But it now seems you yourself are sort of belittling your tactical knowledge in FM. 

[crusadertsar]

8 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

"Defender balance" ??? 

 

I've seen a myriad of such threads since FM18 (when I joined this forum). When it comes to formations, I remember a lot more people complaining that they struggle with a 4231 than 4141dm wide. 

 

It's a bit strange that this kind of comment is coming from you, given that you have a number of very popular threads in this tactical forum which seem to have helped many people with their tactics (at least according to their feedback on those threads you created). I thought you were considered one of the more tactically proficient people here. But it now seems you yourself are sort of belittling your tactical knowledge in FM. 

I was simply acknowledging that me too I was having a lot of trouble breaking down such sides. But if you see it as "belittling" then sure  I guess I'm not as knowledgeable as it seemed. Sorry to disappoint. This game finally got the best of me haha.

Edited August 9, 2020 by crusadertsar

[zyfon5]

On 08/08/2020 at 19:21, mister.cool40 said:

Seems when the AI decides to put men behind ball it is nigh impossible to score.I seem to have good movements on and off the ball but in the box the AI defenders are way too aggressive and gobbles up any smidget of space my team conjures up.I have tried so many things and am spent for ideas. I tried low block and hitting them on the counter but as 1v1 are so unreliable my forwards keep missing the 1-3 chances I create and end up having low rating and bad games.Using a high press just congests all the space.I played with width,early cross but nothing works.   I just go to these away games praying I get a set piece and the opposition doesn't score on the 1 or 2 shots they produce all match.

My I have excellent players and predicted to win the league but I just mostly draw or lose away  matches against these inferior teams and end up losing the league.I however won the UCL twice in last two years as the teams there leave lots of space.

I use team mentality positive or attacking.The winger on the left is asked to Hold position.The TI are not fixed as I tried many combinations (each tested for a reasonable number of matches)  but to no success.

Before I give u any advice, can I see the attributes for your deep lying forward? I have mentioned a few times in this forum but a lone forward in any system will need to be very well rounded. He basically need to be able to do everything. Him not being able to do something decently will hurt your attack.

[zyfon5]

On 08/08/2020 at 20:27, crusadertsar said:

@dekzeh Very good advice. But this basically brings to the forefront the two things I hate about this game. How much importance it puts on set pieces. And I simply loathe set pieces. Before FM20 I would never even set them up. I still don't most of the time. And now I cannot win without them. And second, how ineffective 4-1-4-1 Wide, my favourite formation since Fm14, had been made by this game. It's become a good formation when you want to defend and not to score goals. Which is just not true when you look back at some of the greatest teams in history like Guardiola's Barcelona or 1970s Ajax.

But Barcelona or Ajax in fact never look like a 4141 in possession or out of possession? They are only 4141 on paper. Barcelona under pep plays like a 325 in possession and 442 out of possession. Ajax on the other hand plays like a 3412 with a midfield diamond with players constantly shifting around to maintain a midfield diamond with the half back as the base of the diamond and a CAM with two wide forwards. Both wing backs will occasionally cut inside if the wide forward has drifted wide in line with the principles of positional play where you only want one wide player at any one time.

[crusadertsar]

26 minutes ago, zyfon5 said:

But Barcelona or Ajax in fact never look like a 4141 in possession or out of possession? They are only 4141 on paper. Barcelona under pep plays like a 325 in possession and 442 out of possession. Ajax on the other hand plays like a 3412 with a midfield diamond with players constantly shifting around to maintain a midfield diamond with the half back as the base of the diamond and a CAM with two wide forwards. Both wing backs will occasionally cut inside if the wide forward has drifted wide in line with the principles of positional play where you only want one wide player at any one time.

Valid points but I was actually reffering to the 1970s Ajax that played with 4-3-3 and Guardiola's Barca which was usually 4-1-2-3 in defesive phase and 2-3-5 in attack.

[mister.cool40]

1 hour ago, zyfon5 said:

Before I give u any advice, can I see the attributes for your deep lying forward? I have mentioned a few times in this forum but a lone forward in any system will need to be very well rounded. He basically need to be able to do everything. Him not being able to do something decently will hurt your attack.

Oh I think he is as well rounded as they come

[mister.cool40]

4 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

That remark was not directed at you personally. I've read so many comments by people claiming their tactics don't work because the "ME is broken", even though their tactics were completely senseless. Again, nothing to do with you and your tactic (which is not ideal, but is still pretty decent in some respects). My reaction was provoked by bold claims in this thread pointing once again to the ME as the main culprit for tactical issues. 

 

I cannot know the exact reason why a certain tactic works at home and does not work in away games, because it's not my tactic and my save, although the home vs. away factor is not irrelevant in football (both real-life and FM). However, I am still struggling to understand why on earth a thing like that should have to do anything with the ME as such. 

I know where you were coming from,but I don't think the remarks here weren't offensive enough(at least upto that point, and excluding  future remarks from others ) to merit the response.Surely the ME has been a little frustrating to me ( personally ) in some regards,but it is still good enough for me to not go back to previous versions permanently.

As for the "Home Advantage " I keep shouting,it's more of a personal dislike.I know how ridiculous home advantage can get in real life and how it absolutely doesn't make any sense.I can't blame SI for implementing this in FM.And I guess not very well balanced tactics (like my one ) suffer for this in away matches.

Edited August 9, 2020 by mister.cool40

[crusadertsar]

8 minutes ago, h3nrique_SEP said:

The FM20 has a bad ME that produces few goals, especially from minor teams, Those teams park the bus for 90 minutes against big sides, and due to the lack of the quality of the ME they don't bother to try to counter attack

It might have something to do with this and this

I played FM18 recently and to that version of the game i can say, the match engine it's not perfect, has it's fails, but it's good in general, the FM20's ME is awful comparable to 18

Small sides on FM18 parks it's buses and will counter when they have the opportunity, different from FM20. Producing a much better match experience

Without speaking about the many other aspects of the ME

 

english is not my first language

edit: i have a suspicious that the new training system has messed up with the ME someway

You might want to remove your comment mate (or just edit out the ME stuff), or its just going to get this thread locked. And that won't help any of us, especially the OP.  I think most people reading this are still looking for some advise on how to break these sides down. So this isn't really the right place to complain and its probably my fault by setting a bad example. 

Edited August 9, 2020 by crusadertsar

[herne79]

"I just can't break defensive teams away from home"

This thread seems to have got distracted from this "away from home" part into a wider complaint about AI defensive play in general.  So to get back on topic, I have just one simple question for you @mister.cool40:  what have you noticed about your system(s) that don't work?  You say:

On 08/08/2020 at 12:21, mister.cool40 said:

The TI are not fixed as I tried many combinations (each tested for a reasonable number of matches)  but to no success.

Why were all of these combinations unsuccessful?  Or did you just chop and change because of the lack of success without actually understanding what didn't work?

It seems to me you are doing not much more than throwing lots of stuff at the wall and hoping some of it is going to stick, rather than learning what works, what doesn't work and how you adapt in game.  Understand that TIs and PIs are there to help you achieve either a certain style of play and/or to address a specific issue.  If your system doesn;t seem to work very well away from home then quite simply put it's not a very sound system in the first place, regardless of better results at home.

As @HUNT3R is always saying - start small and build from there as it's much easier to see what works and what doesn't rather than starting with lots of random instructions and trying to take things out. 

Below is an example for you.  I'm currently tearing up the French leagues using this system.  I know exactly how it works, exactly how my players are supposed to behave within that framework and exactly how I can adjust things if needed during matches (because of my previous 2 points).  My team simply has zero problem breaking down defensive teams (home or away).

So just take a step back.  Stop worrying about transitions, random instructions and what the ME may or may not be up to and get back to basics - the players you have, the roles you give them, what the instructions that you give them actually do and - most importantly of all - how it all works together.

[mister.cool40]

2 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

You might want to remove your comment mate (or just edit out the ME stuff), or its just going to get this thread locked. And that won't help any of us, especially the OP.  I think most people reading this are still looking for some advise on how to break these sides down. So this isn't really the right place to complain and its probably my fault by setting a bad example. 

Agree with you.Maybe I am responsible too.

[crusadertsar]

15 minutes ago, herne79 said:

"I just can't break defensive teams away from home"

This thread seems to have got distracted from this "away from home" part into a wider complaint about AI defensive play in general.  So to get back on topic, I have just one simple question for you @mister.cool40:  what have you noticed about your system(s) that don't work?  You say:

Why were all of these combinations unsuccessful?  Or did you just chop and change because of the lack of success without actually understanding what didn't work?

It seems to me you are doing not much more than throwing lots of stuff at the wall and hoping some of it is going to stick, rather than learning what works, what doesn't work and how you adapt in game.  Understand that TIs and PIs are there to help you achieve either a certain style of play and/or to address a specific issue.  If your system doesn;t seem to work very well away from home then quite simply put it's not a very sound system in the first place, regardless of better results at home.

As @HUNT3R is always saying - start small and build from there as it's much easier to see what works and what doesn't rather than starting with lots of random instructions and trying to take things out. 

Below is an example for you.  I'm currently tearing up the French leagues using this system.  I know exactly how it works, exactly how my players are supposed to behave within that framework and exactly how I can adjust things if needed during matches (because of my previous 2 points).  My team simply has zero problem breaking down defensive teams (home or away).

So just take a step back.  Stop worrying about transitions, random instructions and what the ME may or may not be up to and get back to basics - the players you have, the roles you give them, what the instructions that you give them actually do and - most importantly of all - how it all works together.

Wow! This is interesting. You are playing on Balanced and without any instructions (except one) and you are tearing up the league?! Now I want to see more.

Edited August 9, 2020 by crusadertsar

[mister.cool40]

3 minutes ago, herne79 said:

"I just can't break defensive teams away from home"

This thread seems to have got distracted from this "away from home" part into a wider complaint about AI defensive play in general.  So to get back on topic, I have just one simple question for you @mister.cool40:  what have you noticed about your system(s) that don't work?  You say:

Why were all of these combinations unsuccessful?  Or did you just chop and change because of the lack of success without actually understanding what didn't work?

It seems to me you are doing not much more than throwing lots of stuff at the wall and hoping some of it is going to stick, rather than learning what works, what doesn't work and how you adapt in game.  Understand that TIs and PIs are there to help you achieve either a certain style of play and/or to address a specific issue.  If your system doesn;t seem to work very well away from home then quite simply put it's not a very sound system in the first place, regardless of better results at home.

As @HUNT3R is always saying - start small and build from there as it's much easier to see what works and what doesn't rather than starting with lots of random instructions and trying to take things out. 

Below is an example for you.  I'm currently tearing up the French leagues using this system.  I know exactly how it works, exactly how my players are supposed to behave within that framework and exactly how I can adjust things if needed during matches (because of my previous 2 points).  My team simply has zero problem breaking down defensive teams (home or away).

So just take a step back.  Stop worrying about transitions, random instructions and what the ME may or may not be up to and get back to basics - the players you have, the roles you give them, what the instructions that you give them actually do and - most importantly of all - how it all works together.

I agree its more to do with my tactics.Maybe I am expecting too much from individual players to bail me out.I wanted to implement some ideas like stretching play,late runners etc but somehow its just not working out.The opposition teams are too quickly going back to their shape and once they do I can't hurt them.

Most of the match I am  camped into the opposition defence and  the overall position looks like this.(picture below)

I am seeing both the AML (winger-su with Hold Position TI) and the AMR ( IF-su) taking the similar position.So i am confused if having two roles for the AMR and AML is making any difference at all in this particular phase of play.I wanted the winger on the left to touch the hugline (with Hold Position TI ) and then maybe the Mezzal might have more space to operate.But its not working as intended.Tried playing with more width but not having much success either.

Played with higher tempo and different passing lengths to move around the ball quickly but the opposition are way too stubborn.I am not just mindlessly throwing instructions to see what sticks but I think my game observation and the understanding of if something is working or not can improve.

[Experienced Defender]

@h3nrique_SEP i had to remove your comment simply because it was completely off topic. @crusadertsar already explained, and he was absolutely right: 

23 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

You might want to remove your comment mate (or just edit out the ME stuff), or its just going to get this thread locked. And that won't help any of us, especially the OP.  I think most people reading this are still looking for some advise on how to break these sides down. So this isn't really the right place to complain and its probably my fault by setting a bad example

P.S: You are obviously confusing the ME with AI tactics @h3nrique_SEP

[Experienced Defender]

17 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Wow! This is interesting. You are playing on Balanced and without any instructions (except one) and you are tearing up the league?!

I would say it's perfectly logical (especially if you read carefully the whole post by @herne79 ) 

[HUNT3R]

11 minutes ago, herne79 said:

As @HUNT3R is always saying - start small and build from there as it's much easier to see what works and what doesn't rather than starting with lots of random instructions and trying to take things out. 

Below is an example for you.  I'm currently tearing up the French leagues using this system.  I know exactly how it works, exactly how my players are supposed to behave within that framework and exactly how I can adjust things if needed during matches (because of my previous 2 points).  My team simply has zero problem breaking down defensive teams (home or away).

So just take a step back.  Stop worrying about transitions, random instructions and what the ME may or may not be up to and get back to basics - the players you have, the roles you give them, what the instructions that you give them actually do and - most importantly of all - how it all works together.

As you know from GD, I've been doing the same, but with a 4123 DM Wide. Tearing it up in the French League 1. Had very little issues breaking teams down, but while I finished 3rd consistently and 2nd once (predicted 4th) trying to compete with the big 2 (Lyon and PSG at half their wage spend) I felt I needed more. Also, on topic, while I faced the odd defensive team, I hadn't yet really stamped any sort of dominance to 'demand' a defensive approach consistently.

My 4123 DM wide was this:

While it may look like a lot of instructions (and there are quite a few PIs too), this was the work of shaping a system that suited my players and it took 2 or 3 seasons. I started with a single TI - get stuck in.

So last season, I made very good progress in the transfer market and felt like I had a competitive team. So I devised a title challenging approach.

This (again starting minimal and building as the season went on) resulted in my team winning the league. I had no issues breaking down teams, only slipping up once.

As the new season started, with us being champions, I expected defensive opposition often. While it did happen, it's going pretty well so far.

That, against teams who are lower half to bottom teams. Good start to the season.

While there is the odd set piece goal or penalty (from being under severe pressure), there are also fantastic moves from players who have been together a while and who are at almost max in terms of tactical familiarity and familiarity in their role in the tactic. Passes into the box, flick ons, knock downs, rounding the keeper, through balls etc are all part of the goals.

The tactic is never finished. I tweak if I notice something or if my squad changes in such a way that a tweak would help.

Team selection forms a big part of my matches. I don't even change tactic much. For instance, against opposition I know will park the bus, this is my BWM -

 

My centreback? More of a midfielder.

With player selection being a key aspect, this gives me what I want in matches where I want it, while still using a tactic that I know works.

My midfielder of a defender keeps possession beautifully and while one or two of my defenders can get caught on the ball, he doesn't. He's always quick and good enough to control the ball and pass to a player in space. My "BWM" (feels wrong to call him that) isn't really one at all. He hassles opposition, but he's more there as an offensive threat - and he does that so well. He acts as a box to box playmaker next to the DLP and he poses so many threats, it's crazy. He can shoot, cross, pass or dribble and whichever he chooses, there will be problems.

Of course, he would be the BWM against better teams where I anticipate a fairly even match. But that's not what the thread is about.

Lately, using the same formation and players, but a few more matches in, we're just battering everyone. And most of them are now defensive, especially in my home matches.

It's not all sunshine and roses. In some matches, I need to come from behind. In others, clever substitutions and/or a tactical tweak saved me. In the Lens 4-1, we were 0-1 down. The Celtic game was 1-1 at half time. The Amiens match had us 2-1 up, before losing 2-3 in the final 10. That Nimes match was a rescue in the 85th after trailing from the 56th.

What I am saying is that it isn't always easy or straight forward, but my players are mostly better and my tactic isn't too bad, so we don't often struggle breaking teams down at all.

[04texag]

38 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

I would say it's perfectly logical (especially if you read carefully the whole post by @herne79 ) 

Which post is that?

[crusadertsar]

@HUNT3RImpressive! But I with BWM and DLP both on Support, you are playing without a true holding midfielder? Doesn't that go against the logic of the game?

[HUNT3R]

3 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

@HUNT3RImpressive! But I with BWM and DLP both on Support, you are playing without a true holding midfielder? Doesn't that go against the logic of the game?

My DLP is the 'holder' of sorts. When there is a breakaway, it's almost always 1 striker vs my 2 defenders. Someone breaking from midfield is covered by either the DLP or a fullback. I agree it's a little risky, but this is against teams who are defensive, so not posing too much of an issue for me defensively. We're better and quicker than them. It's a 1v2 or 2v3 normally and at worst, it's an even match up.

[mister.cool40]

Could any of you @HUNT3R @Experienced Defender @herne79 do a guide on how one should go about choosing formations,roles,duties,TIs and PIs on breaking down defensive team specifically?What kind of movement should we look about,how many aggressive and supportive roles etc.There are few guides here and there on the internet but the vagueness of these really doesn't help average players like myself( and there are a lot of us...).Also it would be awesome if you could show us with examples on commonly used formations like 433,442 and 4231 and how one can implement some attacking principles like stretching play,late runners,overloads in these systems etc.Would be massively massively helpful.