Booted up fm12 to see how far we have ( or haven't) evolved - match engine

[22smoje]

16 hours ago, forameuss said:

Another few seconds googling (very roughly) estimates that it cost over half a billion dollars to make, and took 7 years.  It's the Triple A-iest of all the Triple A games, and is in a completely different sport, literally and figuratively, to FM, which is a niche product on a yearly cycle.

I would take a 7 year brake from a new FM, let them develop their eyes out and pay 50 EUR on a future version. At least for the fun of it.

 

16 hours ago, forameuss said:

It's an absolutely sound argument, because you have complete personal choice.  I know people like football or football management games, but if it's getting to the point that you're buying something that you clearly believe hasn't improved much in years, purely because you have this reliance on a particular genre, then the problem doesn't lie with the product.  Save your money, and find something else.  That's not meant to be flippant, it's just meant to be common sense.  Buying something you start out not enjoying, has to be one of the stupidest decisions you could make, compounded by then complaining about your own personal decision afterwards.

I buy FM because I enjoy it. And by it I mean some (not all) of its features that create a unique fictional, virtual story for me. As are of course persons that enjoy FM for a different set of features which is only natural. However, I do think there are a few core elements that play a big part in everybody's FM world. One of those elements is the look and feel of the resulting matches. Call it match engine, call it graphics, call it whatever, in the end the cool thing (subjective to everybody) will be how your team plays on the football pitch.

If we take a step back to the point of this discussion, I think it started along the lines of "FM match engine is not so much more exciting than it used to be some 7 years ago".

Of course it has been redesigned, recoded, revamped, added a ton of new features, graphics, etc. All of those things cost time, money, whatever, I don't think anybody is arguing with that. At the same time, the look and feel (of the matches) is not at all clearly superior to older versions.

I choose to express my opinion firstly because I like the game so much. Secondly because it seems SI wants to know my opinion with the presence of the forums. If not, they could just run their Steam stats and develop the features people use the most and not bother with all this.

As a final example of dissapointing outcome of the look and feel is the "shots from impossible angles" thing. This is not subjective, nor fictional. Me and three of my friends playing together needed 2 (just two and the second was to make sure) games to get really frustrated at this issue, it occuring at least 5-6 times per match. I cannot but imagine the process of releasing the game inside SI. While the forum was full of posts with this issue, PKMs were asked for and further details needed. I mean ... how many matches anybody at the studio watched before releasing the version and not noticing this thing? This is such an obvious thing that it needed no mode info, just an acknowledgement, or even better, a fix before the release.

My personal opinion as said in another post, I believe the game is slowly burying itself into its own complexity. All the in-depth mesh of features that influence the match are like a Jenga tower.

[forameuss]

2 minutes ago, 22smoje said:

I would take a 7 year brake from a new FM, let them develop their eyes out and pay 50 EUR on a future version. At least for the fun of it.

...then you clearly have no idea how software development works.  Not to mention that if there was a seven year break, there wouldn't be an FM at the end of it.

[22smoje]

1 minute ago, forameuss said:

...then you clearly have no idea how software development works.  Not to mention that if there was a seven year break, there wouldn't be an FM at the end of it.

I guess you could explain how software development works instead of telling me what I don't know.

[herne79]

5 minutes ago, 22smoje said:

While the forum was full of posts with this issue, PKMs were asked for and further details needed. I mean ... how many matches anybody at the studio watched before releasing the version and not noticing this thing? This is such an obvious thing that it needed no mode info, just an acknowledgement, or even better, a fix before the release.

It's not a question of not noticing things.  pkms are needed so the devs can look under the hood at the root causes.  Every match is essentially unique so where a fix may work for one set of circumstances, it may not affect it for another - or have the opposite effect and make something else worse.

Of course this is all tried and tested before it gets to pubic Beta (let alone release) but when it gets to Beta there are suddenly thousands of extra eyes looking and playing their own unique games, thus issues found in those unique games are something to investigate.  And the only way to do that is to request pkms.

[forameuss]

3 minutes ago, 22smoje said:

I guess you could explain how software development works instead of telling me what I don't know.

Where do you think SI get their funding to sit for 7 years with no income?  Do you think they're sitting there on big enough piles of money that they could not release ANYTHING for 7 years while they develop, and still be able to come out the other side?  That's not a lack of knowledge of software development, that's a lack of common sense generally.

But for an example of a lack of understanding of software development, see herne's post.  It doesn't matter how many pkms they've seen previously, or how many are reported, there is absolutely no guarantee that it will definitely fix YOUR issue.  Much, much simpler systems can easily regress, let alone one this complex.

Edited November 28, 2019 by forameuss

[RDF Tactics]

Opinions are opinions. He didn’t slate the game and say it’s bad like others did, so don’t think it’s fair to call him out for his opinion

everyone wants a perfect game, perfect hardly exists so have to understand it’s likely not going to happen. This for me, is the best FM ever, without a question.

BUT saying that, the ME causes me much stress. I don’t mind the game being “broken”, it’s about where. For me, tactics is a HUGE thing in this game, but the ME can mess all that up, for example, I rely on wide men crossing but they’ll rather shoot and there’s nothing I can do about that unless I want to change my philosophy/playing style....strikers missing 1v1 is the biggest annoyance...I can spend 100mil on a guy with 20 finishing, 20 composure and 20 technique but still miss 1v1 that Heskey should score. All those players attributes them comes irrelevant. Every striker misses chances, but you don’t have to give a world class 5 before he scores 1

[22smoje]

1 minute ago, forameuss said:

Where do you think SI get their funding to sit for 7 years with no income?  Do you think they're sitting there on big enough piles of money that they could not release ANYTHING for 7 years while they develop, and still be able to come out the other side?  That's not a lack of knowledge of software development, that's a lack of common sense generally.

Aren't those the same questions you can ask Rockstar?

Yes, RDR and FM are not the same genre or whatever, but I refuse to believe in terms of development are incomparable.

[Dagenham_Dave]

4 minutes ago, RDF Tactics said:

everyone wants a perfect game,

This is the core root of the issue we have today. In years gone by, people didn't really care about the imperfections of older versions (of which there were far more than there is now), they just wanted to manage their team and have fun with the game. 

It's a different beast now. 

One look at some of the threads on here, at the time and effort taken by people to find out how many yellow cards Team A has had in real life compared to the equivalent in game, and screaming blue murder if it's a few out. That never used to be a thing. People are becoming obsessed by the game replicating real life to the nth degree, and it's making them actively hate the game. We now have people playing this who aren't playing to enjoy it, they're playing it to notice every imperfection, every crease, every little bug, and then whine about it on the internet. And this snowballs to what we have now. People crying that a game - that has record numbers playing it - is 'unplayable' and 'broken'. 

Which brings me back to the point earlier in the thread. If you're reading this, and this describes YOU, then it really is time you found something else to occupy your spare time, because it's really not healthy. 

[forameuss]

6 minutes ago, 22smoje said:

Aren't those the same questions you can ask Rockstar?

Yes, RDR and FM are not the same genre or whatever, but I refuse to believe in terms of development are incomparable.

Yeah, totally comparable.  Because FM had that online component of their previous game, packed with microtransactions that was generating billions for them...

Oh, no, wait...that wasn't FM.  That was GTA5.  From Rockstar.  Who earned 1.09 billion just from the online portion.

So in that seven years, Rockstar have been raking in all that money, which could fund the entirety of the gaming industry, let alone just Rockstar themselves.

There's also the small fact that GTA5 has sold 110 million units.  You think FM has ever reached those figures?

[22smoje]

8 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Of course this is all tried and tested before it gets to pubic Beta [...]

Well, this is where it doesn't make sense to me. Watching a single match would bring that issue to front in a minute. I really cannot understand how that kind of issue slips through. I cannot help but further think that there were higher priority issues being worked on before this. That makes me think the time devs have is not enough which in turn makes me think of the constant need to market new features every year. If this takes its toll on the quality of the ME then it makes me point it out.

[herne79]

1 minute ago, 22smoje said:

Well, this is where it doesn't make sense to me. Watching a single match would bring that issue to front in a minute. I really cannot understand how that kind of issue slips through.

Read the rest of my post, in particular the opening two lines.

[RDF Tactics]

2 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

 

Which brings me back to the point earlier in the thread. If you're reading this, and this describes YOU, then it really is time you found something else to occupy your spare time, because it's really not healthy. 

Exactly! It’s all good giving feedback because actually, they need it...but if you’re playing it just to moan about it and find things you think is wrong, 1. You’ll be doing that forever. 2. It’s really not healthy. 
 

if you notice something playing the game, fine, give feedback. I don’t understand people using sites to drag statistics from real life. It’s real life. 
 

ive given my share of feedback, but I’ve been play since Champ man, I can acknowledge this is by far the best FM. 
 

people even complained about the beta! 😭

[Johnny Ace]

To be fair @Dagenham_Dave, it's a football simulator, all people are wanting is something simulated close to football. The complaining's a bit OTT, fair play, make a point but spend some time reporting it rather than go on & on 

In the build up to release Miles said "this is the best ME ever" & fair play to him, it is in many aspects but I don't see Klopp telling TAA to stay back at all times to stop him shooting into the side netting  There are clear & acknowledged ME bugs 

I have full faith the problems will be patched & all this will blow over (it usually does)

Edited November 28, 2019 by Johnny Ace

[herne79]

2 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

I don't see Klopp telling TAA to stay back at all times to stop him shooting into the side netting  

You can't do that in game either (stay back at all times that is) .

[Dagenham_Dave]

1 minute ago, Johnny Ace said:

 The complaining's a bit OTT, fair play, make a point but spend some time reporting it rather than go on & on 

 

Yes, and usually the biggest culprits in whining about it never actually raise any posts on the bugs forums. I love this year's game, but I think I've logged about 6-7 bug reports since it came out. 

[Johnny Ace]

1 minute ago, herne79 said:

You can't do that in game either (stay back at all times that is) .

You knew what I meant 

[22smoje]

 

4 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Read the rest of my post, in particular the opening two lines.

Right. Assume I did and explain it differently. A post in telling me to read again another is not helping.

 

23 minutes ago, herne79 said:

It's not a question of not noticing things.  pkms are needed so the devs can look under the hood at the root causes.  Every match is essentially unique so where a fix may work for one set of circumstances, it may not affect it for another - or have the opposite effect and make something else worse.

Of course this is all tried and tested before it gets to pubic Beta (let alone release) but when it gets to Beta there are suddenly thousands of extra eyes looking and playing their own unique games, thus issues found in those unique games are something to investigate.  And the only way to do that is to request pkms.

So it gets tested, testers provide PKMs to devs, devs look under the hood, identify a cause, adjust, rebuild. Testers test, notice (maybe the word notice doesn't do justice. Sorry, English is not my mother tongue) issues, provide PKMs, devs look under the hood, etc. After some iterations, the ME is released (to BETA wherever) in one of two conditions: 1/ the shooting from angles is a known issue 2/ the shooting from angles is not noticeable. Did I understand correctly?

[tyro]

I am not sure how you can compare a game from 7 years ago to today looking at a 2D match. Alone from the screenshots I looked at (and I never played in 2D) they look pretty similar to me. That is probably because the focus is on 3D and not 2D anymore.

Now from my own experience with FM12, you would buy a fast striker and win. Any slow striker would not work or would need a lot of tweaks and support to be successful. Now this is just talking about the match itself in 3D mode.

I am not even going to count the hundreds of other changes since then.

But, the positive thing, if you really enjoy FM12 better, then you can always go ahead and play it.

I personally cannot even go back to FM19 because of all the changes. I couldn't imagine going back to FM12 at all.

 

[Johnny Ace]

7 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Yes, and usually the biggest culprits in whining about it never actually raise any posts on the bugs forums. I love this year's game, but I think I've logged about 6-7 bug reports since it came out. 

Nice one! If everyone did that maybe the game would be a little more solid & this place would be a bit more pleasant to read.  Then again, that would be pretty boring wouldn't it?  

Edited November 28, 2019 by Johnny Ace

[JEinchy]

1 minute ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

This is the core root of the issue we have today. In years gone by, people didn't really care about the imperfections of older versions (of which there were far more than there is now), they just wanted to manage their team and have fun with the game. 

It's a different beast now. 

One look at some of the threads on here, at the time and effort taken by people to find out how many yellow cards Team A has had in real life compared to the equivalent in game, and screaming blue murder if it's a few out. That never used to be a thing. People are becoming obsessed by the game replicating real life to the nth degree, and it's making them actively hate the game. We now have people playing this who aren't playing to enjoy it, they're playing it to notice every imperfection, every crease, every little bug, and then whine about it on the internet. And this snowballs to what we have now. People crying that a game - that has record numbers playing it - is 'unplayable' and 'broken'. 

Which brings me back to the point earlier in the thread. If you're reading this, and this describes YOU, then it really is time you found something else to occupy your spare time, because it's really not healthy. 

I'd disagree. Every year, for as long as I've been a member of these forums, has seen complaints about the game being "unplayable" or "broken" for various reasons. I've never seen a FM release that didn't provoke debates about the state of the Match Engine. If it seems worse now, then it's likely because the game genuinely has more problems people are recognising, rather than it being a case of people being innately more prone to complaining.   

I won't speak for others, but for me, the biggest impediment to enjoying FM20 is that it's current ME renders certain playing styles ineffective. The appeal of the game is building a team in my image and feeling ownership over my tactics, whereas at the moment I'm having to play around the ME issues while being in constant doubt about whether my tactics are good or not. I'm winning a lot, but my team doesn't score a lot, so is it my tactical approach or the well-documented lack of striker movement, central play and cutbacks? It's defensively solid, but is that because I've built a good defence, or because the same issues inflict the AI as well? For these reasons, I'm not playing the game at the moment. I have other stuff I can play. Others don't, so I can understand them taking their frustrations to these forums. Nitpicking things like yellow cards is a byproduct of that frustration.

FM has made great strides in improving defensive and transitional play. The introduction of the three phases in the tactics creator was a much needed layer of sophistication. However, my impression based on FM19 and now FM20 is that the attacking play hasn't caught up yet. Maybe it'll just be a matter of time, but we can't pretend this isn't a significant problem, especially as FM20 was advertised with "improved attacking play" as a key feature and this is clearly not being delivered.

[herne79]

@22smoje  You questioned how internal testing doesn't notice these things, that the issue(s) are so obvious that no more info is needed.  I told you that is not why pkms are required nor is it because these things may not have been noticed.  The more examples the developers have the better they are able to analyse root causes and conduct tests on changes.  Each match is unique in it's own way so what may fix something for one match may not work elsewhere or (worse) break something else.

[Dagenham_Dave]

2 minutes ago, JEinchy said:

so is it my tactical approach or the well-documented lack of striker movement, central play and cutbacks?

Given that I, and many others, are not having those issues, then you could argue it is, at least partly, your tactical approach.

I'm not saying there isn't issues in that area, but it's not an easy fix to appease everyone. 

[Johnny Ace]

7 minutes ago, 22smoje said:

So it gets tested, testers provide PKMs to devs, devs look under the hood, identify a cause, adjust, rebuild. Testers test, notice (maybe the word notice doesn't do justice. Sorry, English is not my mother tongue) issues, provide PKMs, devs look under the hood, etc. After some iterations, the ME is released (to BETA wherever) in one of two conditions: 1/ the shooting from angles is a known issue 2/ the shooting from angles is not noticeable. Did I understand correctly?

You've gotta think, the shooting from angles wasn't put in the game intentionally, minor ME adjustments can have a huge knock effect. Change one little thing & it can produce a huge problem(s). It most likely was picked up but wasn't fixed in time for release, again, they could fix it & it have a huge knock on where goalkeepers score 50 a season, time constraints for release & all of that

I'm sure SI & the testing team are on a much further version of ME as to what we're on now & each one needs to be tested under many different circumstances (hence PKM's being useful when they is a release)

[22smoje]

I wans't trying to question SI internal workings. Nor was I trying to say I know better, I don't.
I was pointing out the outcome of this year's game as a personal opinion - how it makes me feel and think about it. If this makes sense for SI, glad to help out. This being a topic in the "Football Manager General Discussion" forum. If this is whining to some people then frustration is really eating them up.

On the other hand, another general personal opinion. This forum, the same as the one in my country, has its people who know it all and dismiss any other different views, calling out whiners.

[JEinchy]

28 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Given that I, and many others, are not having those issues, then you could argue it is, at least partly, your tactical approach.

I'm not saying there isn't issues in that area, but it's not an easy fix to appease everyone. 

I'm not suggesting it is. But surely you can understand the frustration involved in watching games, seeing players in good positions to score or influence games, yet rarely receive the ball for unknown reasons. I'd be delighted if my tactics were the issue, but I'm mostly convinced they're not, so I feel powerless.

If it's a case of a specific or esoteric combination of instructions that'd make things better, then that's not very intuitive, in my opinion. As someone else pointed out, you really shouldn't have to tell an attacking full-back to stay back more, or heavily restrict his actions in other ways, just to extract the most basic level of decision making from him, especially if he's a good player. And seemingly no amount of tinkering can convince my midfielders to attempt a progressive pass through the middle when the opportunity arises, rather than attempt a switch to the flanks to a player who might not even be in space. 

The telling thing for me is that I can go down to the tactics forum, and see plenty of people posting about sensible, logical tactical set-ups because they're having identical problems. 

Edited November 28, 2019 by JEinchy

[Dagenham_Dave]

4 minutes ago, JEinchy said:

you really shouldn't have to tell an attacking full-back to stay back more, or heavily restrict his actions in other ways, just to extract the most basic level of decision making from him, especially if he's a good player. 

But similarly, if you play with an attacking full back, on an attacking mentality, with TI's that promote an attacking mentality further, then the player will clearly make rushed decision in the attacking third of the field. Not saying that's how your tactic is, but what I've found in this years game more than the previous ones is striking a balance in your players and tactical instructions is more important than ever. You simply don't get away with overly aggressive tactics this year, and what it causes are exactly the issues people are reporting - rushed shots, poor decisions, shooting instead of crossing, etc etc. 

The good thing about playing a save on FMC as I'm currently doing is it gives you more freedom to experiment with systems without the knock on effect of ruining cohesion and familiarity. I posted a tactic in the other thread that I'd started using, and I was seeing some of the issues people have said on here, but it was pretty clear why. It was way too aggressive. I've now struck a balance between roles and duties whilst keeping the core shape and playing style, and I've won my last two games 6-0 and 3-0. Number of times a player has shot into the side netting in these to games - Zero. And two of the nine goals were scored by through balls to the striker, a pretty good ratio considering I play a wide system that utilises wing backs and inside forwards. 

So, while I'm not saying there aren't issues with forward play or wide players making bad decisions, I do feel that a lot of it is tactical this year. But that's only my opinion, based on nothing more than my own experiences of the game and the ways I've studied my matches and tweaked my tactic accordingly. 

 

[Victor]

I agree that this year's ME is, to say the least, confusing to me. In previous iterations of the game I could make my team play the way I wanted it to - even if the tactic eventually proved to be ineffective, but it was my tactic and you could recognize it in the actual football that was being played by my team on the pitch. In FM20 I feel like there is a limited number of ways to win, and if you try to make your own way and not stick to those you'll find yourself being trashed match after match. It is quite frustrating.

I have never been a manager that sticks to the same tactic/playing style regardless of the team I'm managing. For example, in FM10 I succeeded through the Spanish league system using a very defensive tactic. It was a 5-3-2 that heavily relied on fullbacks and counter-attack because I had no quality players as to deploy a possession-based style. When I made my way to the top and got a good enough squad I gradually changed my tactics and ended up using a 4-4-2 diamond (technically a 4-1-2-1-2) that was pretty much attacking and creative.

Other example is FM15, where in the same career I started using a counter-attacking 4-2-3-1 that failed miserably and led to me being sacked by Tottenham. Then I moved to Torino and played a very strange 3-1-4-2 that proved to be effective, with high pressing and much protagonism for the wingers. I then moved on to Galatasaray and had a very bad first half of the season until I changed my tactics to a 4-4-1-1 where my target man was fixing the opposite centre-backs and thus freeing spaces for the wingers to shine. After that Tottenham hired me back and I switched again to a 4-2-3-1 but possession-based this time, with the CAM being the absolute axis of the build-up. This was my best tactic in this save - with Torino I had a decent season, a fantastic one and then a terrible one, and in Galatasaray I just stayed for one year where I got to win the league after an exciting comeback through the last months. In my second stint at Tottenham I managed to win the league and the Champions League.

Moving to FM18 I had a game with Deportivo de la Coruña and they had a pretty average team, but through studying the outcomes of my tactical tweaks I managed to build a pretty solid side that brought me close to European qualification positions in the table.

In FM19 I must admit that gegen-press was so overpowered that I had massive success with Extremadura first -saving them from relegation and then promoting to La Liga- and then with Schalke 04, where I won two or three Bundesligas back-to-back. Then with an update gegen-press got nerfed and I didn't really get it right afterwards.

Having said all of this, what I mean is that I have always found a way to a certain degree of success through hit and miss, but this year (well, it was the same in FM19 after the update where they kind of destroyed gegen-press!) it looks like I'm doomed to fail no matter what I do. I tend to think that my tactical knowledge has limits and that the game has gotten so complex that I'm no longer able to beat it. And then, looking at the matches (even in full match mode!) I don't really get to understand some of the things that my players do, which seem to be completely against what I want them to do.

Maybe it's just me...

[Svenc]

11 hours ago, RDF Tactics said:

I can spend 100mil on a guy with 20 finishing, 20 composure and 20 technique but still miss 1v1 that Heskey should score.

The difference between Heskey and the world class is typically far narrower than what is perceived. If like Heskey you're competing against the world class, you must be already Pretty good at what you are doing, or you wouldn't last on that Level. Commentary saying how one Forward was "*****" whilst the other was "invincible" isn't Football reality, and shouldn'T ever be in-game. Clubs spend gazillions in attempts of going the crucial added extra percent. And whilst Messi outperforms his xG consistently, him and his pal CR7 don't average a Goal per match because they put it ALL away. But because they both average 5 / 7 attempts per match average respectively. Which naturally, is also a skill.

And related to FM: That forward should struggle more than Heskey if it's made harder to score for that Player, as the tactics in Question is all narrow, pushes everybody and their mom up, against a packed defense, which you never see in Football ever, but will lead to additional set pieces and finishes from it anyway. Some of the (Buggy / too easy to create) one on ones on FM should be Pretty much 1 in 5 chances to me. Still a reasonably "big chances", but their angle is oft too tight to realistically class them much higher. You have central one on ones in actual Football that aren't regarded as any bigger than 1 in 4 chances Pretty oftenly. That sounds low, until you realize that it's still twice as good a Chance than the average Football Chance. On average, a Goal is scored in roughly every 10th shot. 

 

11 hours ago, herne79 said:

Of course this is all tried and tested before it gets to pubic Beta (let alone release) but when it gets to Beta there are suddenly thousands of extra eyes looking and playing their own unique games, thus issues found in those unique games are something to investigate.  And the only way to do that is to request pkms.

Maybe another Argument in favor of streamlining the tactics module. Much of the combinations it allows aren't much Football anyway, and realistically, should highlight all Kinds of "issues" that are never a Thing in actual Football, as actual Football Managers don't engage in anything quite like them.  

Edited November 28, 2019 by Svenc

[RDF Tactics]

1 hour ago, Svenc said:

And related to FM: That forward should struggle more than Heskey if it's made harder to score for that Player, as the tactics in Question is all narrow, pushes everybody and their mom up, against a packed defense, which you never see in Football ever, but will lead to additional set pieces and finishes from it anyway. Some of the (Buggy / too easy to create) one on ones on FM should be Pretty much 1 in 5 chances to me. Still a reasonably "big chances", but their angle is oft too tight to realistically class them much higher. You have central one on ones in actual Football that aren't regarded as any bigger than 1 in 4 chances Pretty oftenly. That sounds low, until you realize that it's still twice as good a Chance than the average Football Chance. On average, a Goal is scored in roughly every 10th shot. 

we’re not talking about the same thing here. I’m talking easy chances, 1v1, whilst a goal may be roughly scored every 10th shot, that’s not every 10th clear cut chance. I’m not expecting my players so score more shots they take. 

 by the way, we’re talking about just strikers. Central midfielders and defenders seem to have no problem with their chances, which is why on a regular basis, CBs and CMs score hat tricks on the game. Strikers miss a lot of their attempts and the game replicated that, but it’s not taking consider the type of chance. My strikers are often clear, on stronger foot, good angle and miss 

of course they don’t want strikers scoring 50 a season, but in the game, they get way more 1v1 chances than they do in real life. But by doing this, strikers are getting ratings of 6.0 because their missing so many easy chances 

[Svenc]

41 minutes ago, RDF Tactics said:

 

of course they don’t want strikers scoring 50 a season, but in the game, they get way more 1v1 chances than they do in real life. But by doing this, strikers are getting ratings of 6.0 because their missing so many easy chances 

A lot of the Buggy one on ones aren't that easy chances, and shouldn't be though. ON average, a 1vs 1 is /should be a 1 in 3 Chance, btw. That 1vs1s would be the easiest Chance in Football is the most common misconception there is (next to the Penalty being a 100% Goal). There are some that are evidently converted at higher than 50% ratios, however, they are actually in some serious space, and mostly from better angles than the Buggy ones to be fixed. In an actual match with realistic AI tactics, they should be Ultra rare. The Buggy one see the widish Players too easily get past the last line of defense, and as such are finished from real tight angles (red dots here, blue dots Header from the seet piece btw). Will all hopefully be fixed. But in a realistic way, rather than a Fifa arcade Soccer way. 1 in 5 chances are being regarded as "big / clear cut chances" in Football, btw. This is an Ultra low scoring Sports for absolutely reason.

Edited November 28, 2019 by Svenc

[nala]

I have been playing FM and it’s predecessor CM since around 1992. I thought the FM19 match engine was a massive improvement but FM20 is a great step forward in graphics and game play.

Positives are the players and the tackling look better although I have seen a few fouls and penalties where the graphics did not support a foul.

One to ones are more realistic and could be better but in real football a good proportion of one to ones miss the goal. 

In FM20 players no longer run away from an opponent who possesses the ball and positioning reflects the players ability ratings. Defenders no longer head the ball from the byline to an attacker but leave it to go out for a goal kick  

There are of course improvements to make. Far too often wingers on the byline shoot instead of crossing and miss. There are issues with transfers and with positive team talks causing frustration but hopefully these will be resolved soon . There are lots of other non game engine issues that will get picked up.

This is a massive programme and we all need to give it a chance to bed in and for improvements to be made  I look forward to the next update  

One thing that really does bug me is the absence of a manual that can be downloaded and printed off . Explanations of what shouts do, how morale affects players, different tactical choices etc etc would be most welcome. Otherwise I am very happy with what I see so far  

 

 

 

Edited November 29, 2019 by nala
Spelling mistake

[Svenc]

On FM12 I had a couple really good saves. One of which Managing Rosenborg, with which I had survived a CL Group containing the likes of Milan and Real by playing both counter attacking as well as low Blocking defensive "grind out the draw" Kind of Football. Looking at this defensive shape, it seems apparent why it worked so well (the AI on FM12 also regularly didn't push enough men Forward to break really bolstered defenses down, which is part of the reason why "exploit" tactics in the download sections on FM11/12 actually kept half the Team plus glued behind the ball, as opposed to just shoving everybody and their mum Forward and make them hold a picnic in front of the opposition's box).



Even though counter attacks were somewhat weaker, in tendency weaker the further you go back -- in any current Iteration that would lead to hockey scorelines, as the direct / through ball opportunity would be directly taken every time Team White wins the ball back. Plus they'd be just hopeless to defend in their own half like that, conceding quite a few from however Little shots.

Similar defensive shapes were possible in early FM15, and Players reported hockey scorelines of 3-6 every week. According to the GD Forums, this time it wasn't strikers that were  "useless", it was the "keepers". The actually root cause of it was something else completely. Like shapes like this. SO in essence, firing up FM12 again feels "Fresh", as it Plays differently to current Releases. Watch a Little too closely however, and all the cracks start to appear again, like Cologne doing exceptionally well in the German league due to the pace of the likes of Podolski as well, as defenders couldn't efficiently mark Forwards anyway (in particular off the ball). Still a neat playable game mind, and the last of a breed of ME iterations that then had run its Course due to ist limitations. I had played it for a Long time back then.

Edited November 29, 2019 by Svenc

[bahrami]

On 26/11/2019 at 17:48, Johnny Ace said:

You do need to bare in mind that FM20 still isn't in it's finished state yet! 

I'm enjoying FM15 at the moment & having a good save on that so fair dos you've gone back to FM12 & enjoy that but I'm sure FM20 will only get better  

And why is that?

The game has been released, too much time adding pointless features and not focusing on the most important aspect. The matches.

Inexcusable, i'm still waiting for the ME fix until I can start playing the game I paid for.

[forameuss]

24 minutes ago, bahrami said:

And why is that?

The game has been released, too much time adding pointless features and not focusing on the most important aspect. The matches.

Inexcusable, i'm still waiting for the ME fix until I can start playing the game I paid for.

If only you could have had some way of trying out a match before you bought the game.  Maybe through some demonstration of it.  For a low price, or maybe even free.  What a world that would be.

[headlesschickens]

havent been around since 2016ish myself, i think the game has  gone to extreme sports which football is not.headless chickens running around with a ball was my first impression of 2020.having an attacking defender is laughable "libero attacking" it should only ever be a libero support at lcb/rcb.see you all in 10 years and dx12.