Player Stats Drop

[GC28]

Hi All,

Can anyone explain the attached images with the drop in stats yet the player is playing the best football he has yet as shown in the match stats?

[Sanel]

Injury?

[GC28]

Just now, Sanel said:

Injury?

No injurys to speak of, I can only think this comes down to training setups.

[herne79]

On 02/08/2019 at 10:03, GC28 said:

Hi All,

Can anyone explain the attached images with the drop in stats yet the player is playing the best football he has yet as shown in the match stats?

What's actually happening here is the player is developing too well.

I know that sounds screwy but I'll explain.  Technically speaking there is only a limited amount a player can develop each month (otherwise we'd see 16 year olds as good as Messi) however that limit is only checked after a certain period.  So during that period a player could actually develop more than allowed as the check won't happen until the end of that period.  When that happens, the game rebalances that high amount of growth by reducing attributes - but it reduces attributes across the board, rather than just targeting a few.  That way attributes are only reduced by 0.1 or 0.2, rather than large reductions of 3 or 4 whole points you'd see if only a few were targeted.  Hence you see lots and lots of orange down arrows.  (orange diagonal arrows are minor changes, red down arrows are larger changes).

What's more important is the long term growth which you can check by using the line graphs on a player's development page.  Overall they should show a general upward trend even if you see these temporary minor reductions.

Edit - as this post is being liked I'll also direct readers to @Seb Wassell's post below (https://community.sigames.com/topic/490227-player-stats-drop/?do=findComment&comment=11970596).  As Seb says, there is a cap on growth and lots of red arrows could indicate attribute rebalancing, however the way it's checked has changed from how I describe above as checks are now simultaneous.  Also worth mentioning there could be other reasons (such as learning a new position or natural peaks / troughs in development).  Always worth checking a player's long term development however by looking at the line graphs in his development tab.  That's the important part, not the short term up/down arrows.

 

[GC28]

54 minutes ago, herne79 said:

What's actually happening here is the player is developing too well.

I know that sounds screwy but I'll explain.  Technically speaking there is only a limited amount a player can develop each month (otherwise we'd see 16 year olds as good as Messi) however that limit is only checked after a certain period.  So during that period a player could actually develop more than allowed as the check won't happen until the end of that period.  When that happens, the game rebalances that high amount of growth by reducing attributes - but it reduces attributes across the board, rather than just targeting a few.  That way attributes are only reduced by 0.1 or 0.2, rather than large reductions of 3 or 4 whole points you'd see if only a few were targeted.  Hence you see lots and lots of orange down arrows.  (orange diagonal arrows are minor changes, red down arrows are larger changes).

What's more important is the long term growth which you can check by using the line graphs on a player's development page.  Overall they should show a general upward trend even if you see these temporary minor reductions.

This makes a lot of sense, thank you for the great explanation @herne79  

I'll stop getting rid of players now!

[Marko1989]

Yes, it is a great explanation and he is probably right but no, it does not make any sense. It the most annoying thing in FM for me, I hope SI will find better solution than decreasing the attributes to stop development. I had this problem also, with Vinicius Junior, he got slower at age of 21 but his marking increased. Also in your case Monzon will probably get slower or worse at finishing/dribling at age of 21 even those attributes should increase. I have no idea why SI has implemented this. You could spend your time to develop some youngster just to see his attributes decrease even he is playing very good and he is young. No sense at all. 

[herne79]

1 hour ago, Marko1989 said:

Yes, it is a great explanation and he is probably right but no, it does not make any sense. It the most annoying thing in FM for me, I hope SI will find better solution than decreasing the attributes to stop development. I had this problem also, with Vinicius Junior, he got slower at age of 21 but his marking increased. Also in your case Monzon will probably get slower or worse at finishing/dribling at age of 21 even those attributes should increase. I have no idea why SI has implemented this. You could spend your time to develop some youngster just to see his attributes decrease even he is playing very good and he is young. No sense at all. 

I haven't seen Vinicius in your save but from the sounds of it what has happened will not be the same thing as I outlined above.  Above I mention what can happen when all attributes "decline" (they don't really decline here - 0.1 is not what you'd call a decline), but you mention only a couple of attributes which indicates something different has happened.

[autohoratio]

3 hours ago, herne79 said:

I haven't seen Vinicius in your save but from the sounds of it what has happened will not be the same thing as I outlined above.  Above I mention what can happen when all attributes "decline" (they don't really decline here - 0.1 is not what you'd call a decline), but you mention only a couple of attributes which indicates something different has happened.

It's still false (or misleading at the very least) visual feedback though, no?

[herne79]

53 minutes ago, autohoratio said:

It's still false (or misleading at the very least) visual feedback though, no?

Very short term, but yeh sure is.

[ajt]

Great question that I didn't know about at all, was worried about a few of my young players getting downward arrows despite training ratings being at least 8.5+

[Marko1989]

4 hours ago, herne79 said:

I haven't seen Vinicius in your save but from the sounds of it what has happened will not be the same thing as I outlined above.  Above I mention what can happen when all attributes "decline" (they don't really decline here - 0.1 is not what you'd call a decline), but you mention only a couple of attributes which indicates something different has happened.

 

You have seen my Vinicius  We had a conversation in my topic. 

Again, I don't want you to understand me wrongly, I agree with you and your explanation is great, but that thing with attributes decreasing is very, very annoying and does not make any sense at all.

Edited August 4, 2019 by Marko1989

[herne79]

9 hours ago, Marko1989 said:

You have seen my Vinicius  We had a conversation in my topic. 

Ahh that one yes .

I do agree that sometimes it can be frustrating or even in some cases nonsensical - for a player such as Vinicius, to see his pace reduce while his marking increases is quite bizarre.  It'll be interesting to see how FM20 turns out in this regard, however I'll add that what you've seen is probably very unusual and not typical of how things usually work out.  It is odd though and these "extreme" examples are probably ones that (if repeated in FM20) could be fed into the developers as examples of areas to improve upon .

[talhak]

On 04/08/2019 at 19:58, herne79 said:

Very short term, but yeh sure is.

Should have already been reported to SI I think, @herne79? As it seems a tweak is necessary to prevent that kind of misunderstanding.

[herne79]

2 minutes ago, talhak said:

Should have already been reported to SI I think, @herne79? As it seems a tweak is necessary to prevent that kind of misunderstanding.

SI know all about it (and is where I got the info from) .  I agree it could be clearer in game  - perhaps only show drops/increases below/above a certain amount for example.

[talhak]

Just now, herne79 said:

SI know all about it (and is where I got the info from) .  I agree it could be clearer in game  - perhaps only show drops/increases below/above a certain amount for example.

Cool!  Yeah, especially when the reason is just the adjustment of short-term development.

[Seb Wassell]

On 02/08/2019 at 10:18, herne79 said:

What's actually happening here is the player is developing too well.

I know that sounds screwy but I'll explain.  Technically speaking there is only a limited amount a player can develop each month (otherwise we'd see 16 year olds as good as Messi) however that limit is only checked after a certain period.  So during that period a player could actually develop more than allowed as the check won't happen until the end of that period.  When that happens, the game rebalances that high amount of growth by reducing attributes - but it reduces attributes across the board, rather than just targeting a few.  That way attributes are only reduced by 0.1 or 0.2, rather than large reductions of 3 or 4 whole points you'd see if only a few were targeted.  Hence you see lots and lots of orange down arrows.  (orange diagonal arrows are minor changes, red down arrows are larger changes).

What's more important is the long term growth which you can check by using the line graphs on a player's development page.  Overall they should show a general upward trend even if you see these temporary minor reductions.

I think I know what you are getting at, but this isn't quite accurate.

Attributes drive CA change, not vice versa, and the checks are simultaneous (when organic, i.e. not edited). There is indeed rebalancing going on, and it could manifest in this way, but this is constant and will not lead to a CA discrepancy. There is a cap on growth, but not quite in the way you describe. An example of this cap would be that, for a player to hit his absolute maximum ability, everything needs to be going his way. He could get 95% of the way there under simply 'good' conditions, but that final 5% is demanding. We of course also don't want players going from League Two to Champions League ability in half a season, but there's no simple cap on that bit, we're more nuanced than that

"Red" arrows across the board in a player you wouldn't expect to be decreasing indicate the constant minor adjustments that are occurring, somewhat in the way Herne describes but also for a myriad of other reasons. For example, is the player learning a new position? That increase to Positioning and Bravery, has that cost him something somewhere else (in the short term)? Has the player simply hit a small bump in his development? And so on. Obviously this excludes injury and other similar factors. If you zoom out from the immediacy and see that a player is improving in the medium to long term there is nothing to worry about. I get better at my job month-on-month, year-on-year, but some days I'm a bit a worse than yesterday. Don't tell Miles.

On 18/08/2019 at 21:24, herne79 said:

SI know all about it (and is where I got the info from) .  I agree it could be clearer in game  - perhaps only show drops/increases below/above a certain amount for example.

Decent chance this was me? Hopefully cleared it up a little above. There was previously a discrepancy with what was shown as a decrease and what was shown as an increase (a relatively larger increase in attribute had to occur to be shown visually vs. a relatively lower decrease), which could of course lead to inconsistencies here. @Russell Hammant will be able to update on that.

[Marko1989]

I don't know English very well and I don't understand almost nothing from Seb's post above why is there attribute decreasing , but I will just repeat myself, it is really, really stupid anyways.  Don't get me wrong I don't want to argue or to talk bad about the game, it is just that part of the game that is really annoying for me.
 

Like in my case. I bought Vinicus Junior, he is playing very very good, he has very good potential, I destroying teams in both Champions League and in my League, and I'm excited how Vinicius will develop and what I see at the end of the season - he got worse at dribling. That is a huge disappointment. In almost perfect conditions he got worse. What is the point then of developing him. I almost lost will to play after seeing that. And Vinicius is not the only example. I don't remember seeing this in older versions of the game. ( before 2016 I think )

My wonderkids were always better from season to season in earlier versions, and here, even young player is playing football of his life he could get worse at the end of the season. Makes no sense at all. Ofcourse there should be some cap when it comes to player development, but it should not be that strict, it is just ruining the most beautiful part of this game - finding and developing young players. It is a real disappointment when you spend whole season working to develop some player and he actually get worse at some important attributes.. 

[Seb Wassell]

9 minutes ago, Marko1989 said:

I don't know English very well and I don't understand almost nothing from Seb's post above why is there attribute decreasing , but I will just repeat myself, it is really, really stupid anyways.  Don't get me wrong I don't want to argue or to talk bad about the game, it is just that part of the game that is really annoying for me.
 

Like in my case. I bought Vinicus Junior, he is playing very very good, he has very good potential, I destroying teams in both Champions League and in my League, and I'm excited how Vinicius will develop and what I see at the end of the season - he got worse at dribling. That is a huge disappointment. In almost perfect conditions he got worse. What is the point then of developing him. I almost lost will to play after seeing that. And Vinicius is not the only example. I don't remember seeing this in older versions of the game. ( before 2016 I think )

My wonderkids were always better from season to season in earlier versions, and here, even young player is playing football of his life he could get worse at the end of the season. Makes no sense at all. Ofcourse there should be some cap when it comes to player development, but it should not be that strict, it is just ruining the most beautiful part of this game - finding and developing young players. It is a real disappointment when you spend whole season working to develop some player and he actually get worse at some important attributes.. 

Overall he will be getting better if the conditions are suitable, a few small bumps in the road are to be expected  

Are the attributes you are training decreasing? Or is it the others? How old is he? If you look back over the attribute development graph for the past year, what does that show?

Once a player reaches his best, you need some attributes to go down for others to go up. Is that perhaps happening here?

Funnily enough I have been discussing in another thread whether players are developing too quickly or not, so I can promise you that your wonderkids won't be getting worse (either at all or without a reason).

[Marko1989]

I can't go back because I don't have that hard drive anymore but he was just 21 y old  I think I have posted some more information here when I've opened the thread just because of this 

 

[Seb Wassell]

1 minute ago, Marko1989 said:

I can't go back because I don't have that hard drive anymore but he was just 21 y old  I think I have posted some more information here when I've opened the thread just because of this 

 

I think Herne pretty much covers it there, with the qualification of my above comment  

[herne79]

9 hours ago, Seb Wassell said:

There is a cap on growth, but not quite in the way you describe

Thanks for updating.  My post is from your original of a couple of years ago - has it now changed?

"As a player progresses, attribute gains may outstrip the maximum CA gain allowed for that period.  In this instance attributes are rebalanced across the board according to the weightings with minor adjustments (0.1/0.2) rather than targeting just one or two attributes with large reductions."

Either way I think the underlying issue here is the concern it can give some managers seeing all of these red arrows across the board and worry their players are declining when in reality they more than likely aren't.  Is there a need to show such minor attribute changes?

[Bothan Spy]

So why does 'Determination' rapidly deteriorate on virtually all my players? Red arrow pointing downwards 

[herne79]

47 minutes ago, Bothan Spy said:

So why does 'Determination' rapidly deteriorate on virtually all my players? Red arrow pointing downwards 

That's different and is more linked to your squad's profile, dynamics and mentoring.

[Seb Wassell]

7 hours ago, herne79 said:

Thanks for updating.  My post is from your original of a couple of years ago - has it now changed?

"As a player progresses, attribute gains may outstrip the maximum CA gain allowed for that period.  In this instance attributes are rebalanced across the board according to the weightings with minor adjustments (0.1/0.2) rather than targeting just one or two attributes with large reductions."

Ah ok. There was a revamp of how progression worked a couple of years ago, which touches this. The principle remains, but it does work a little differently now. In short, we're constantly balancing (rather than it being a quarterly thing or something) and it's not possible to outstrip the max, nor is there a cap in the same way.

Edit - @herne79 seen your edit above, all good, cheers for that. The perils of saying something in black and white and then revamping that module later!

7 hours ago, herne79 said:

Either way I think the underlying issue here is the concern it can give some managers seeing all of these red arrows across the board and worry their players are declining when in reality they more than likely aren't.  Is there a need to show such minor attribute changes?

Something I agree we can review, cheers.

[Bothan Spy]

On 20/08/2019 at 11:25, herne79 said:

That's different and is more linked to your squad's profile, dynamics and mentoring.

My squads profile? What does that even mean? I've managed a few clubs this version and everytime I see numerous players losing determination at an alarming rate.

As for dynamics and mentoring, My squads generally get along fine and I always set good mentoring groups. 

Please can you elaborate?

[enigmatic]

On 20/08/2019 at 13:34, Seb Wassell said:

Ah ok. There was a revamp of how progression worked a couple of years ago, which touches this. The principle remains, but it does work a little differently now. In short, we're constantly balancing (rather than it being a quarterly thing or something) and it's not possible to outstrip the max, nor is there a cap in the same way.

Edit - @herne79 seen your edit above, all good, cheers for that. The perils of saying something in black and white and then revamping that module later!

Something I agree we can review, cheers.

Compromise suggestion on this: make the red arrows look a bit less steep for 0.1 declines

(with up arrows you get a flattish arrow for a 0.1 rise and a steeper one for a bigger rise. Might be optical illusion but it looks like the down arrow is a steeper angle...)

[Lanko]

While I appreciate the  replies, I can't help but also say... what the hell?

Who thinks this is in any way intuitive at all? When those orange arrows appear almost everyone will think that the player is getting worse or slacking off in training. There's nothing ingame to remotely suggest at something like this.

This is something that frustrates me with the game. A lot of things simply aren't properly explained (or at all) in the game and sometimes provide confusion (like some of the mentality names in the previous year).

Only someone with half a decade or more playing the game, plus with knowledge of the coding and contact with developers in the official forum would ever know something like this, or like now, accidentally coming across this, otherwise NEVER would I even guess that sometimes this is not a problem at all.

[herne79]

21 minutes ago, Bothan Spy said:

My squads profile? What does that even mean?

Your player's personalities (which may include Determination) can be influenced by their team mates.  So if (for example) you happen to have a player with high Determination but his team mates - especially influential team mates (ie., check Dynamics) - happen to have broadly lower Determination, that player may see his Determination drop and become more in line with the rest of his team mates.  Of course that can also work the other way and players with lower Determination than their team mates may see their Determination increase.  (More than Determination can be influenced, I'm just carrying on your example as you mentioned Determination).

Some players may be more or less susceptible to team mate influence than others, for example younger players or players lower down the Dynamics tree.

Mentoring can be a technique to help combat this, especially with younger more impressionable players, by setting up Mentoring groups to help pass along (hopefully) more beneficial personality traits.  If you want to know more about Mentoring, there are two guides pinned to the top of the Tactics & Training forum which go into a lot of detail on this topic.

[Seb Wassell]

21 minutes ago, Lanko said:

While I appreciate the  replies, I can't help but also say... what the hell?

Who thinks this is in any way intuitive at all? When those orange arrows appear almost everyone will think that the player is getting worse or slacking off in training. There's nothing ingame to remotely suggest at something like this.

This is something that frustrates me with the game. A lot of things simply aren't properly explained (or at all) in the game and sometimes provide confusion (like some of the mentality names in the previous year).

Only someone with half a decade or more playing the game, plus with knowledge of the coding and contact with developers in the official forum would ever know something like this, or like now, accidentally coming across this, otherwise NEVER would I even guess that sometimes this is not a problem at all.

When the arrows appear a change has taken place, whether it be large or small, positive or negative. Is it the context around this change that you find unintuitive?

[herne79]

25 minutes ago, Lanko said:

otherwise NEVER would I even guess that sometimes this is not a problem at all

Yup, I hear what you're saying.  Just a quick note on this point - always check a player's long term development line graphs before worrying whether they are developing or not.  Those line graphs are the important things to watch as they'll give you the picture about player development over time .

[Bothan Spy]

So the game is trying to be more complicated than is absolutely necessary? 

Wow. And there's me thinking it was just 11 players verses another 11...

[Bothan Spy]

Personally I think things have started to get way too complicated.

What happened to just looking at a strikers finishing and if it was over 15 then you knew he was good? 

[autohoratio]

5 hours ago, Seb Wassell said:

When the arrows appear a change has taken place, whether it be large or small, positive or negative. Is it the context around this change that you find unintuitive?

Yes, because having red down arrows around many attribute indicates the player has declined overall, even if going into the Attribute Changes panel it's only a 0.2 decrease. Until recently (FM18) I couldn't find any information on why this happened and assumed it was because the player had performed very poorly in training. It wasn't clear in the slightest that it's just a background thing because the player had improved too much over a short period of time.

[Lanko]

6 hours ago, Seb Wassell said:

When the arrows appear a change has taken place, whether it be large or small, positive or negative. Is it the context around this change that you find unintuitive?

Yes.

From what I understood, sometimes the red arrows is just rebalancing stats around the attributes that really matter, so sometimes it's not exactly going to be a loss for the player, could be even a gain long term, correct?

Well I'm glad I know now, as I was even sometimes fining players for being lazy when apparently they weren't being lazy but attributes were dropping anyway, but apparently sometimes it's not their fault at all no matter what me or they do.

 

6 hours ago, herne79 said:

Yup, I hear what you're saying.  Just a quick note on this point - always check a player's long term development line graphs before worrying whether they are developing or not.  Those line graphs are the important things to watch as they'll give you the picture about player development over time .

Yeah, I look at them, but whenever it went down, I thought it was either laziness, injury or peak (for the time being at least), but now there could be some rebalancing around, which is not their fault at all. Good to know at least, I guess.

[Seb Wassell]

1 hour ago, autohoratio said:

Yes, because having red down arrows around many attribute indicates the player has declined overall, even if going into the Attribute Changes panel it's only a 0.2 decrease. Until recently (FM18) I couldn't find any information on why this happened and assumed it was because the player had performed very poorly in training. It wasn't clear in the slightest that it's just a background thing because the player had improved too much over a short period of time.

 

42 minutes ago, Lanko said:

Yes.

From what I understood, sometimes the red arrows is just rebalancing stats around the attributes that really matter, so sometimes it's not exactly going to be a loss for the player, could be even a gain long term, correct?

Well I'm glad I know now, as I was even sometimes fining players for being lazy when apparently they weren't being lazy but attributes were dropping anyway, but apparently sometimes it's not their fault at all no matter what me or they do.

More feedback on this. Noted 

When it comes to disciplining a player for poor performances in training, use the Training Rating as a guide.

[Marko1989]

On 22/08/2019 at 01:52, Lanko said:

From what I understood, sometimes the red arrows is just rebalancing stats around the attributes that really matter, so sometimes it's not exactly going to be a loss for the player

"sometimes it's not exactly going to be a loss for the player" 

I don't think this is the case at all. I never seen anything good from this. My Winger got slower and worse at dribling at age of 21, my striker, also wonderkid got worse at finishing after getting golden boot, my left back had 15 dribling and after winning champions league and after he had almost 8.0 average rating whole season, his dribling also dropped to 14. I don't have those save games anymore but I'm sure there were even more cases. Even after all explanations from (great) guys from this forum I still don't understand why this has been implemented.

I remember in FM 2015 it was a little bit different. When you see all the arrows pointing down, you can critcize player for bad training perfromance. After he accepts the criticism, and after a month or two his attributes would back to normal, but I don't see that here. That would be more logical, for example, player got fatter or lazier and after you criticise him he would start working hard again. 

[Bothan Spy]

On 23/08/2019 at 15:28, Marko1989 said:

"sometimes it's not exactly going to be a loss for the player" 

I don't think this is the case at all. I never seen anything good from this. My Winger got slower and worse at dribling at age of 21, my striker, also wonderkid got worse at finishing after getting golden boot, my left back had 15 dribling and after winning champions league and after he had almost 8.0 average rating whole season, his dribling also dropped to 14. I don't have those save games anymore but I'm sure there were even more cases. Even after all explanations from (great) guys from this forum I still don't understand why this has been implemented.

I remember in FM 2015 it was a little bit different. When you see all the arrows pointing down, you can critcize player for bad training perfromance. After he accepts the criticism, and after a month or two his attributes would back to normal, but I don't see that here. That would be more logical, for example, player got fatter or lazier and after you criticise him he would start working hard again. 

 

[Bothan Spy]

So. I have an 18 year old keeper. Good stats and doing well. I've started him in a few games and he's looking great.  My coaches rate him sort of.

Hes been playing brilliantly in my last few games and I've employed the best goalie coaches. But his red arrows start going down. No matter what I do! 

I get what you're saying with the Messi scenario thing, but it's absolutely soul destroying for me as the virtual manager and for him as the player. 

What's the point of the arrows then???

[Marko1989]

16 hours ago, Bothan Spy said:

So. I have an 18 year old keeper. Good stats and doing well. I've started him in a few games and he's looking great.  My coaches rate him sort of.

Hes been playing brilliantly in my last few games and I've employed the best goalie coaches. But his red arrows start going down. No matter what I do! 

I get what you're saying with the Messi scenario thing, but it's absolutely soul destroying for me as the virtual manager and for him as the player. 

What's the point of the arrows then???

I feel you. That is the single most annoying thing in FM and you can't do anything about that. Ofcourse there should be a limit in players development but this is just.. bad.. I don't want anything fancy in new FMs, like better 3D graphics or so, I just want this re-done. It is just like you said, soul destroying. You spend so much time to develop a player to see his attributes decline even he is in top of his form. But I doubt Neil and other guys from SI will even concider changing this.. 

[herne79]

17 hours ago, Bothan Spy said:

So. I have an 18 year old keeper. Good stats and doing well. I've started him in a few games and he's looking great.  My coaches rate him sort of.

Hes been playing brilliantly in my last few games and I've employed the best goalie coaches. But his red arrows start going down. No matter what I do! 

I get what you're saying with the Messi scenario thing, but it's absolutely soul destroying for me as the virtual manager and for him as the player. 

What's the point of the arrows then???

 

22 minutes ago, Marko1989 said:

I feel you. That is the single most annoying thing in FM and you can't do anything about that. Ofcourse there should be a limit in players development but this is just.. bad.. I don't want anything fancy in new FMs, like better 3D graphics or so, I just want this re-done. It is just like you said, soul destroying. You spend so much time to develop a player to see his attributes decline even he is in top of his form. But I doubt Neil and other guys from SI will even concider changing this.. 

As I said above, a player's long term development is the important thing here which you can only view by looking at the line graphs under his development tab.  It's a quite natural part of development to see a certain attribute follow a typical monthly pattern of (as an example): 12,12,11,12,13,13,12,12,13,13,14,14 - so long as there is an overall upward trend in the line graph, that's what to look out for.  Isolated monthly drops are just that - look for the trends instead.

I know the red arrows are the much more obvious things to see and could even be viewed as misleading (in some cases) but try to look beyond them.  Obviously if somebody shows a long term (over several months) or even permanent drop in an attribute, that could be a greater cause for concern and something to look into further.  But try to look at the trends first and foremost .

[Seb Wassell]

Short term ups and downs are natural and nothing to be concerned with, development is a long term game.

As mentioned, there is a visual issue where very minor drops show more often than very minor increases. This means that, whilst development may be neutral or even slightly positive, red arrows show more often than green arrows for the same magnitude of attribute change. This is visual only, affecting how often and for what magnitude of change the red/green arrows show, development and the visual attributes themselves are unaffected. This only applies to the smallest changes, larger changes are unaffected.
We have the issue under review internally.

[enigmatic]

From what I can see (I have a youth-only save, so I look at the growth graphs) the attribute drops are real and the attribute rises are also pretty accurate. Unless the graphs also have issues.

A big visual only issue is that the red arrow showing a 0.1 drop is as steep as the green arrow showing a 1.0 rise, and the green arrow showing a 0.1 attribute rise is much flatter...

 

The non-visual issue imho is the cases where you still get red arrows due to "rebalancing" rather than a fluctuation in the player's ability due to injuries, game time, beginnings of physical decline or developmental issues. Good that SI has eliminated most of those, but players losing skills to balance ability upon learning to become accomplished in a position still defies common sense (normal perception is that a player becoming accomplished in a new position reflects an actual improvement in his current level of all-round ability, usefulness and value as a footballer, and attributes he no longer trains possibly atrophying is a only a long term development thing, not that he gets a bit worse skills wise upon becoming familiar with the position but might gain them back over time)

[Lanko]

I agree.

If Vinicius Jr learns to mark and tackle better, I doubt he would lose anything in his Finishing or Dribbling, but due to CA/PA caps, something would get a drop in the game, specially when the player is at, or very close to his full PA.

Perhaps attributes not on their natural position should not inflict penalties on their main ones, regardless of the PA, but also have a stricter limit/cap?

 

Edited August 29, 2019 by Lanko

[Marko1989]

Again. I've just finished a season with Brescia, easily 1st in the league, got promoted, Tonali was 4 times at least player of the week and then same as for the players above.
How can a player in good form and so much potential every time get slower, worse at finishing, long shots? I mean, this is not the only case, I really do hope that guys from SI will take a look at this.

 

 

 

 

[woodwardm28]

Came across this thread because I have the same issues on FM21. I have great coaches at every category, but my players continue to go backwards and I end up having to sell them as they become ineffective. This is across pretty much all of my saves. I don't do my own training because I don't know what I'm doing. The computer handles it and they all go backward, but cpu teams also handled by the computer progress as you'd expect. I signed Marcus Edwards on one of my saves and I went to another save in the same year to compare the attributes. I have had him 6 months and he has regressed two full attribute points in the majority of the important categories and hasn't improved in any compared to where he is in the other save when his attributes are handled by a cpu team and compared to what I bought him at. This is very frustrating and as many said, shouldn't be the case. He is playing well and and the only injury he had was a bruised ankle that kept him out two days for the entire year so I don't really have any reason as to why he should be regressing. He is my team's leading goalscorer with 17 goals halfway through the year.

Edit: I added some screenshots. The pic where he is on Aston Villa is when he has been on my team for six months. The pic where he is on Man City is when the computer has handled him the whole time and is about the same attributes he had when I bought him six months earlier. I have included my coach training list as well to show my coaches aren't terrible.

 

Edited August 8, 2021 by woodwardm28
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