So whats new ? (nothing)

[wrezanini1]

So yea here I am like many of us that play fm we have played this game for at least 10+ like I have played it since CM days i guess i was 12-13 and i am now 33. 

 

And to prove that im not just saying that to say it....

 

Having said that the basics of this game is starting to annoy me.

Since the start of fm if you get a good enough tactic you will win games no matter which team you are playing with.

The biggest annoyance i have with the game is the core of the game has been the same since CM. What is that you ask well the Potential Ability etc feature is flawed and needs some more features. Why well if you are not going to change the match engine to where a tactic is going to make you win games then could you at least make the game a bit more unpredictable when it comes to player ability. What i mean by that is a player ability/potential ability will only really change by factors of age.

Meaning if i get a player that has ability of PA of 120 and i make him score 35 goals in the premiership his PA will not change one bit ! And to me that is unrealistic and flawed it should be that his PA should increase if he scores 35 goals in the premiership !

Also the regens are so annoying it destroys the game after a few seasons, there is no real developing of your own regens by making youngsters play in your A.I beating tactic you should be able to develop them into stars ! Or lets not talk about regens that have 200 PA that come from North Korea or some island from wherever, or central defenders with 20 acc and pace but 1 jumping etc.

Then lets go to the stupid unhappy player thing, I am leading the bundesliga and my player is unhappy about not allowing him to go on loan to Roma ! Or my new 21 year old goalie wants to go to Stuttgart at the same season i brought him to the club and being first in the league !

I know why this happens because of the set values in the game of reputation... 

And really whats NEW with the game in the last 10 years ? Really whats new ? The only thing thats new is my tactic which i tinker with until i beat every team in the league and go unbeaten for 30-40 games. 

Training is supposed to have an impact in the game this year ? Really ? I haven't noticed anything i let my assistant take care of it and i still win games by tinkering with the tactic and not the training or any other stupid "feature" like media comments, which i let my assistant take care of because if I do it im bound to fall into a trap and make my players "unhappy". Oddly enough they never get unhappy with whatever my assistant says !

As a closer id like to say I do love the game but after 20 years of playing it A LOT ! I'm fed up with SO LITTLE happening every damn year ! 

Don't bring me a list of 45 new features which consists of the al new spanking new "black skin", 500 new ways to answer so called journalists etc etc.

 

And people seem to think that I am in some way struggling or have not played the new FM not true i skipped the beta this year and so far in the last week or so ive got 65 hours of game play. Won the german league with Hertha in the second season etc. 

 

 

Here is a valid idea i've had for some time: Better Online play, something where people can actually play against each other without the extreme lag and in some way where do not have to play in real time against each other. In my humble opinion the biggest thing missing in FM is a valid Online feature !

thanks !

 

[upthetoon]

well....we now have a nice purple skin.. it's pretty...

[forameuss]

There's little point in going through most of the post, as it was a largely self-serving rant with little substance, but...

9 minutes ago, wrezanini1 said:

Please MAKE A NEW GAME at least every 5-6 years or so ?

So what you want is for a small team, with a niche product, to forego any chance of profits for 5-6 years (or so), just because you don't like that they haven't added anything "new" to a genre where they already put in pretty much everything they can realistically?

When you find out how to generate money from nothing, are you going to patent that or help everyone by making the answers public?

EDIT: And one question to leave you with - so you say nothing new has been added.  What, in your opinion, should be added that would be considered new, and would make the game worth buying?

[wrezanini1]

Just now, upthetoon said:

well....we now have a nice purple skin.. it's pretty...

I feel you man, honestly i never write in this forum, but im sick and tired of discussing the same thing with my mates who also play this game for ages and NOTHING has changed !

I love the game we al do, so many of us are hardcore FM players we spend COUNTLESS hours on the game and will continuously do that.

But honestly this is becoming frankly disrespectful from SIGAMES, when are you going to make something NEW and actually take a chance on a new IDEA ! 

Improve the A/PA system put in some more realistic features at the core ! Regens have such a huge potential for further development its not even funny and yet nothing ever changes !

[evs4evs]

1 minute ago, forameuss said:

EDIT: And one question to leave you with - so you say nothing new has been added.  What, in your opinion, should be added that would be considered new, and would make the game worth buying?

there is actually some point going through the post if you want an answer to this question!

 

I would suggest reading it again, assuming you did it read...

[forameuss]

4 minutes ago, evs4evs said:

there is actually some point going through the post if you want an answer to this question!

 

I would suggest reading it again, assuming you did it read...

I did read it, I'll summarise it.

- Needless proof that the OP played previous editions (not sure what that proves, but it's largely negative to the point given it apparently hasn't changed in many years)

- The core of the game hasn't changed since CM.  Laughably untrue.

- PA doesn't change.  Because it never should.  

- Player development.  I'm not even sure what the muddled point is there.

- Player unhappiness. Maybe the sole "point" the OP has.  

- Then back to "nothing new".  Patently untrue.  Saying "I don't really see much difference" would be closer to accurate, as it makes it subjective.  Still demonstrably untrue, but easier to argue than trying to pass it off as objective.

Is that better for you?

5 minutes ago, wrezanini1 said:

I feel you man, honestly i never write in this forum, but im sick and tired of discussing the same thing with my mates who also play this game for ages and NOTHING has changed !

I love the game we al do, so many of us are hardcore FM players we spend COUNTLESS hours on the game and will continuously do that.

But honestly this is becoming frankly disrespectful from SIGAMES, when are you going to make something NEW and actually take a chance on a new IDEA ! 

Improve the A/PA system put in some more realistic features at the core ! Regens have such a huge potential for further development its not even funny and yet nothing ever changes !

PA being an upwardly dynamic value is as far from realistic as you can get.

[wrezanini1]

Just now, forameuss said:

There's little point in going through most of the post, as it was a largely self-serving rant with little substance, but...

So what you want is for a small team, with a niche product, to forego any chance of profits for 5-6 years (or so), just because you don't like that they haven't added anything "new" to a genre where they already put in pretty much everything they can realistically?

When you find out how to generate money from nothing, are you going to patent that or help everyone by making the answers public?

EDIT: And one question to leave you with - so you say nothing new has been added.  What, in your opinion, should be added that would be considered new, and would make the game worth buying?

Well how about changing A/PA and adding some more values ?

How about a new more realistic way of regens for example: You make your regen from your own club play in the first team and he actually develops into something? No you cannot do that because of the SET PA values ! Which do not change ! Or how about giving players something if you win league you get some sort of point system where u can put that into a new regen that will come out of your own club where you can chose his abilities ?

Take a chance ? Of course i understand what you are saying and that's why i never bothered ever to complain or say something because I do know they don't want to make changes because they are afraid people will leave the game... but leave to what game ? There is NO competition to FM and there has not been any for the last 20 years !

Are you scared to make real changes well simple (choose do you want to play with old A/PA values or new "experimental". 

[forameuss]

Just now, wrezanini1 said:

Well how about changing A/PA and adding some more values ?

How about a new more realistic way of regens for example: You make your regen from your own club play in the first team and he actually develops into something? No you cannot do that because of the SET PA values ! Which do not change ! Or how about giving players something if you win league you get some sort of point system where u can put that into a new regen that will come out of your own club where you can chose his abilities ?

Take a chance ? Of course i understand what you are saying and that's why i never bothered ever to complain or say something because I do know they don't want to make changes because they are afraid people will leave the game... but leave to what game ? There is NO competition to FM and there has not been any for the last 20 years !

Are you scared to make real changes well simple (choose do you want to play with old A/PA values or new "experimental". 

As I've said, having potential be variable is as far from realistic as you can get.  PA - which, obviously, is a field that isn't designed to be viewed - is the definition of how good someone can ever be.  No-one can ever become better than that mark, that just isn't logical on any level.  

I don't think you understood the rest of what I posted.  They currently release a game yearly, basically because that's how it's done in the industry (look at every other sports title) and because if they didn't, they likely wouldn't have the capital to continue developing at all.  So your suggestion that they wait 5 or 6 years to release a title is obviously never going to happen.

 

[wrezanini1]

Just now, forameuss said:

I did read it, I'll summarise it.

- Needless proof that the OP played previous editions (not sure what that proves, but it's largely negative to the point given it apparently hasn't changed in many years)

- The core of the game hasn't changed since CM.  Laughably untrue.

- PA doesn't change.  Because it never should.  

- Player development.  I'm not even sure what the muddled point is there.

- Player unhappiness. Maybe the sole "point" the OP has.  

- Then back to "nothing new".  Patently untrue.  Saying "I don't really see much difference" would be closer to accurate, as it makes it subjective.  Still demonstrably untrue, but easier to argue than trying to pass it off as objective.

Is that better for you?

So you tell me, give me 5 things that have significantly improved/changed in the last 5 versions of the game, you dont even have to give me 5 for each version give me 1 for each 5 last years !

And as i said previously i would like to see a system of maybe rewarding me for winning the league/champs league for next year to develop new regens? How this is done of course there can be a lot of discussion of how this is done but I think there needs to be some sort of new features which actually do matter ! 

[HUNT3R]

Just now, wrezanini1 said:

Well how about changing A/PA and adding some more values ?

How about a new more realistic way of regens for example: You make your regen from your own club play in the first team and he actually develops into something? No you cannot do that because of the SET PA values ! Which do not change ! Or how about giving players something if you win league you get some sort of point system where u can put that into a new regen that will come out of your own club where you can chose his abilities ?

Take a chance ? Of course i understand what you are saying and that's why i never bothered ever to complain or say something because I do know they don't want to make changes because they are afraid people will leave the game... but leave to what game ? There is NO competition to FM and there has not been any for the last 20 years !

Are you scared to make real changes well simple (choose do you want to play with old A/PA values or new "experimental". 

You're misunderstanding what PA is. The definition of it is that it is the BEST you can ever be, so it's not possible to be better than you can ever be. Winning a league doesn't automatically raise a player's PA and it shouldn't ever be this way as it is artificial. What could happen is that they become more consistent, better under pressure or better in important matches, all of which will make them better players.

Newgens are worked on every year with many tests etc to try and balance the gameworld and it's better than ever this year. If you have specific examples, SI and especially @Seb Wassell would love to see it.

 

Also a lot has changed over the years, in terms of scouting, tactics, the ME, AI, game world balancing.

[wrezanini1]

Just now, forameuss said:

As I've said, having potential be variable is as far from realistic as you can get.  PA - which, obviously, is a field that isn't designed to be viewed - is the definition of how good someone can ever be.  No-one can ever become better than that mark, that just isn't logical on any level.  

I don't think you understood the rest of what I posted.  They currently release a game yearly, basically because that's how it's done in the industry (look at every other sports title) and because if they didn't, they likely wouldn't have the capital to continue developing at all.  So your suggestion that they wait 5 or 6 years to release a title is obviously never going to happen.

 

Well you misunderstood me, what i meant is every 5-6 years make a real change ! that you have been working during those 5 years in which you update the roster changes and put in these minor improvements and il still buy al those in between games as I have done since the game was first developed ! 

[wrezanini1]

Just now, HUNT3R said:

You're misunderstanding what PA is. The definition of it is that it is the BEST you can ever be, so it's not possible to be better than you can ever be. Winning a league doesn't automatically raise a player's PA and it shouldn't ever be this way as it is artificial. What could happen is that they become more consistent, better under pressure or better in important matches, all of which will make them better players.

Newgens are worked on every year with many tests etc to try and balance the gameworld and it's better than ever this year. If you have specific examples, SI and especially @Seb Wassell would love to see it.

 

Also a lot has changed over the years, in terms of scouting, tactics, the ME, AI, game world balancing.

I do know what you are saying mate, but lets take Jamie Vardy as an example... was his PA the same the year before he broke into Leicester squad ? And was his PA the same  the following season when he did win league and scored al those goals with Leicester ?

There needs to be more something which will keep me playing for more than 5 seasons, ive done the lower league thing brought a team from non div to premiership won everything there and then what ?

Something that is perhaps "unrealistic" which you as a player should be able to make a choice if you want to do or not ! As in perhaps a points system which you as a manager collect and can make a regen of your own desire with the points that you have accumulated during the years ?

And that can be put into many areas and give the player (us) the choice if we want to implement that or not... ? Simple tick yes i want to play "fantasy" mode or I want to play it as it is now ?!

 

[HUNT3R]

Just now, wrezanini1 said:

I do know what you are saying mate, but lets take Jamie Vardy as an example... was his PA the same the year before he broke into Leicester squad ? And was his PA the same  the following season when he did win league and scored al those goals with Leicester ?

You mentioned newgens, not existing players. That's a different case obviously and just a case of researchers not knowing has actual PA, so they're trying to make educated decisions. All of this, including PA has been discussed to death, but the fact remains that you can't be better than the best you can ever be, whether that's judged PA or PA for a newgen.

If you have improvements to suggest, please do so in the feature requests section, but know that FM will always strive to be realistic.

[forameuss]

13 minutes ago, wrezanini1 said:

So you tell me, give me 5 things that have significantly improved/changed in the last 5 versions of the game, you dont even have to give me 5 for each version give me 1 for each 5 last years !

And as i said previously i would like to see a system of maybe rewarding me for winning the league/champs league for next year to develop new regens? How this is done of course there can be a lot of discussion of how this is done but I think there needs to be some sort of new features which actually do matter ! 

The Match Engine - both visually and under the hood - have incrementally improved to a considerable degree in every version.  Just because there have been clear and obvious issues in each edition doesn't make that any less true.  Subjectively plenty of people can argue that they think it's gone downhill.  That's fine, as that will mostly be driven by personal experience.  But objectively the animations are obviously far smoother (while still needing work) and it's clear the match engine itself is more sophisticated.  

Your feature idea is something more akin to what EA would do with FIFA, or something similarly arcade in nature, rather than something more on the simulation end of the spectrum.  May as well say that if you win the Champions League you can't get sacked, or you get a 400,000 seater stadum if you retain it.

10 minutes ago, wrezanini1 said:

Well you misunderstood me, what i meant is every 5-6 years make a real change ! that you have been working during those 5 years in which you update the roster changes and put in these minor improvements and il still buy al those in between games as I have done since the game was first developed ! 

And there you have it.  You complain all about how unfair it is, and how they've made no changes, and yet you still buy the game?  Never mind the tired arguments of no competition, if you're continuing to buy a product year after year that you say nothing has changed with, then you're a far larger part of the problem than the developer is.  Sales - and reviews - have continued to be positive with each version, which brings 1 of 2 outcomes, 1) everyone feels the way you do, and there's some kind of force making everyone buy the game, or 2) maybe the game isn't quite as bad to everyone else as you think it is.

3 minutes ago, wrezanini1 said:

I do know what you are saying mate, but lets take Jamie Vardy as an example... was his PA the same the year before he broke into Leicester squad ? And was his PA the same  the following season when he did win league and scored al those goals with Leicester ?

Taking away the fact that the research was done at a fixed point in time, then yes, how good Jamie Vardy could ever be was always the same.  PA will never, and should never, change.  It's that simple.

[FlorianAlbert9]

A variable PA is unrealistic like the fixed PA. 

Simple there is no PA in real life and the game must reflects that.*

Following what OP said, the problem is not that a player who made 35 goals stay with a 120 PA but that a player with 120 CA can score 35 goals.

*Well, i think there is a PA for some phisical attributes and a standard PA, that only 1 player every 15 years can excedeed. 

[HUNT3R]

Just now, FlorianAlbert9 said:

A variable PA is unrealistic like the fixed PA. 

Simple there is no PA in real life.*

Following what OP said, the problem is not that a player who made 35 goals stay with a 120 PA but that a player with 120 CA can score 35 goals.

*Well, i think there is a PA for some phisical attributes and a standard PA, that only 1 player every 15 years can excedeed. 

There is a PA IRL, especially considering that we're not getting a newborn baby. They're already 15-16. If a player with 120 CA scores 35 goals, then there's clearly no need for him to increase more? He's already doing fantastically well. Why can't he just be a 120 CA player who is being used to his maximum ability?

[HUNT3R]

@wrezanini1 Apart from leaving out points I've made, have you played FM19? Because there were pretty big changes to development, which is now slower and more realistic. Also, you'll have more variation - some players just stagnating or improving slowly, while others suddenly increasing quite a bit. That could be your Vardy player right there.

[wrezanini1]

Just now, forameuss said:

The Match Engine - both visually and under the hood - have incrementally improved to a considerable degree in every version.  Just because there have been clear and obvious issues in each edition doesn't make that any less true.  Subjectively plenty of people can argue that they think it's gone downhill.  That's fine, as that will mostly be driven by personal experience.  But objectively the animations are obviously far smoother (while still needing work) and it's clear the match engine itself is more sophisticated.  

And there you have it.  You complain all about how unfair it is, and how they've made no changes, and yet you still buy the game?  Never mind the tired arguments of no competition, if you're continuing to buy a product year after year that you say nothing has changed with, then you're a far larger part of the problem than the developer is.  Sales - and reviews - have continued to be positive with each version, which brings 1 of 2 outcomes, 1) everyone feels the way you do, and there's some kind of force making everyone buy the game, or 2) maybe the game isn't quite as bad to everyone else as you think it is.

Taking away the fact that the research was done at a fixed point in time, then yes, how good Jamie Vardy could ever be was always the same.  PA will never, and should never, change.  It's that simple.

Yeah, you can answer al my questions and sure you are right, of course you are!

 

But let me tell you something, I am a player of this game and have been in forever. And you trying to beat every single argument is not going to lead us anywhere !

I do understand that people think playing FM is like being a real manager and take it dead serious. Let me break it to you its not... 

And for you that want to have the same old game every year, for sure you are allowed to exist as well. 

But why not make the game more "fantasy" for players like me who want a bit of fun once we want to have a bit of fun? It really is as simple as I said (tick fantasy) OR DON'T and play your uber realistic FM as you have for the pat 20 years !

 

In the age of everyone being allowed to exist you should let people like me exist as well. And let me have a bit of fun for the money and time i spend on the game every single year

 

That's al I'm trying to say !

 

 

 

[Martin#]

6 minutes ago, forameuss said:

 it's clear the match engine itself is more sophisticated.  

 

I 100% agree with you, unfortunately more sophisticated does not mean better or more realistic. I cannot help myself but ever since they introduced collision detection in 2012 the ME has been really troublesome. I recently watched a video of fm 2012 and it was obvious the games were "simpler" but in the end more enjoyable and, at least for me, resembled real football more.

[jcp1417]

5 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

If a player with 120 CA scores 35 goals, then there's clearly no need for him to increase more? He's already doing fantastically well. Why can't he just be a 120 CA player who is being used to his maximum ability?

I was going to post about the same thing, lol. across various sports games, i never understood the reasoning behind the "if a player has a good statistical year, then his attributes must rise" argument. If I score 35 goals, it's because my ability was good enough to do so. 

[Martin#]

2 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

@wrezanini1 Apart from leaving out points I've made, have you played FM19? Because there were pretty big changes to development, which is now slower and more realistic. Also, you'll have more variation - some players just stagnating or improving slowly, while others suddenly increasing quite a bit. That could be your Vardy player right there.

He can be your Vardy only when his PA was predetermined to be good enough to pull off a "Vardy". It is obvious that the game is lacking in this area.

[wrezanini1]

Just now, HUNT3R said:

@wrezanini1 Apart from leaving out points I've made, have you played FM19? Because there were pretty big changes to development, which is now slower and more realistic. Also, you'll have more variation - some players just stagnating or improving slowly, while others suddenly increasing quite a bit. That could be your Vardy player right there.

 

To answer your question yes, yes i have...

And for the first time i didn't play it since the beta because i was really sick of the game last year !

And yes FM is a bit of a hate love relationship like a heroin user would have but i still play it and will probably play and buy the damn thing until i die hahaha.

Al i'm saying is can we please have a bit of eh something really NEW ! And I know you can stack up 1000 arguments against me because that's what people do in Forums.

[forameuss]

1 minute ago, Martin# said:

I 100% agree with you, unfortunately more sophisticated does not mean better or more realistic. I cannot help myself but ever since they introduced collision detection in 2012 the ME has been really troublesome. I recently watched a video of fm 2012 and it was obvious the games were "simpler" but in the end more enjoyable and, at least for me, resembled real football more.

Now this is more along the right lines.  However, the "better" and "more realistic" parts are a bit of a stretch.  It depends what you're really referring to with "better".  In a subjective sense, I'd imagine a lot of people still think ones like FM12 are, because they enjoyed them more.  At their core, games where you won more (because FM12 was undoubtedly easier) are going to be enjoyed more.  That's perfectly understandable.  But they're not better technically, or more realistic.  They've continually gotten better in a technical sense, and I'd argue more realistic too, but completely understand that that isn't going to translate into someone having a better time with it.

[jcp1417]

I heard FIFA's career mode was pretty realistic. I suggest giving it a go

[HUNT3R]

Just now, Martin# said:

He can be your Vardy only when his PA was predetermined to be good enough to pull off a "Vardy". It is obvious that the game is lacking in this area.

Because that newgen will have had the PA to be able to improve and with the sudden increase in ability, he's now much better.

[forameuss]

4 minutes ago, wrezanini1 said:

Yeah, you can answer al my questions and sure you are right, of course you are!

Oh come on, if you actually disagree, debate it, don't get all haughty and act like that, it's not a good look.

5 minutes ago, wrezanini1 said:

But let me tell you something, I am a player of this game and have been in forever. And you trying to beat every single argument is not going to lead us anywhere !

No-one is "beating every single argument".  And just because you've played every edition since CM1885 doesn't mean your opinion is any more or less valid than someone whose only experience is with FM19.  

6 minutes ago, wrezanini1 said:

I do understand that people think playing FM is like being a real manager and take it dead serious. Let me break it to you its not... 

Oh, it isn't?  I think you'll find a lot of people disagreeing with you there.

7 minutes ago, wrezanini1 said:

But why not make the game more "fantasy" for players like me who want a bit of fun once we want to have a bit of fun? It really is as simple as I said (tick fantasy) OR DON'T and play your uber realistic FM as you have for the pat 20 years !

Fine.  But every change needs to be developed, tested, and obviously then needs to be actually worth the effort.  It's not good enough to just say "don't like it, don't tick it, don't play it".  Whether you're going to use something or not, it affects EVERYONE.

[Martin#]

1 minute ago, forameuss said:

Now this is more along the right lines.  However, the "better" and "more realistic" parts are a bit of a stretch.  It depends what you're really referring to with "better".  In a subjective sense, I'd imagine a lot of people still think ones like FM12 are, because they enjoyed them more.  At their core, games where you won more (because FM12 was undoubtedly easier) are going to be enjoyed more.  That's perfectly understandable.  But they're not better technically, or more realistic.  They've continually gotten better in a technical sense, and I'd argue more realistic too, but completely understand that that isn't going to translate into someone having a better time with it.

Well I do not necessarily need to be successful with a game to like it. As I said in the feedback thread, I am comfortably at the top of EPL with few games to go and yet i stopped playing because i cannot stand this ME. It is painful to watch how the games are played. Situations that should end with a goal being scored or conceded almost never turn out that away and instead you win (or lose) after a measly goal from 27th corner. 

[Mitja]

about PA how i edit my db is x years before 24 has y A difference and then mental stats and all other stuff should do the magic. simple and realistic, all 20 years old have same A difference.

[RedHot]

2 minutes ago, jcp1417 said:

I was going to post about the same thing, lol. across various sports games, i never understood the reasoning behind the "if a player has a good statistical year, then his attributes must rise" argument. If I score 35 goals, it's because my ability was good enough to do so. 

not necessary true. you scored 21 goals because you played with suarez who made you look good while you are just.....sturridge. So it's not your ability, and yes I believe that if a striker keeps scoring goals some attributes should increase ....heading, finishing....

[Martin#]

5 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

Because that newgen will have had the PA to be able to improve and with the sudden increase in ability, he's now much better.

I get it but it still does not change the fact the the game could implement a certain random factor when a player with 150 PA, after say 2 great seasons, can now have 180 PA. Just more unpredictability.

[HUNT3R]

Just now, Martin# said:

I get it but it still does not change the fact the the game could implement a certain random factor when a player with 150 PA, after say 2 great seasons, can now have 180 PA. Just more unpredictability.

See here for the last 2 changing PA debates. 

Read @santy001's posts especially. The definition of PA is still there though. You don't automatically become a better player just because you've had 2 good seasons. You've had 2 good seasons because you've had 2 good seasons and you're capable OF having 2 good seasons already.

[forameuss]

5 minutes ago, Martin# said:

Well I do not necessarily need to be successful with a game to like it. As I said in the feedback thread, I am comfortably at the top of EPL with few games to go and yet i stopped playing because i cannot stand this ME. It is painful to watch how the games are played. Situations that should end with a goal being scored or conceded almost never turn out that away and instead you win (or lose) after a measly goal from 27th corner. 

I was generalising.  It's only natural for a lot of people to enjoy an engine more when they're successful in it.  Or at least not dislike it.  If you're continually getting beaten because your approach hasn't caught up then you're probably not going to be enjoying yourself.

That's not to say everyone will feel like that, but I'd imagine a large majority do.  It's one of the reasons FML died.

[wrezanini1]

Just now, forameuss said:

Oh come on, if you actually disagree, debate it, don't get all haughty and act like that, it's not a good look.

No-one is "beating every single argument".  And just because you've played every edition since CM1885 doesn't mean your opinion is any more or less valid than someone whose only experience is with FM19.  

Oh, it isn't?  I think you'll find a lot of people disagreeing with you there.

Fine.  But every change needs to be developed, tested, and obviously then needs to be actually worth the effort.  It's not good enough to just say "don't like it, don't tick it, don't play it".  Whether you're going to use something or not, it affects EVERYONE.

Listen mate wherever this debate leads us I hope it leads to sigames taking some of us which obviously think the game needs something new seriously, something that will actually exite me or even make me frustrated at first ! 

What makes me the most sad is i know exactly what to do to "beat" the game only thing i need to do is to find the settings and i'm done doing the same thing ive done the last 10 years in the game ! THAT IS THE WORST FEELING OF AL ! 

You are here with a bit of a hammer and hammering away at almost every argument i have which you dislike ! That's not really a discussion that's you being on that high horse and stroking sigames hair. I am not here to win a popularity contest I am here to voice my annoyance on a topic that honestly is really close to my heart which is FM !

I honestly think that they are as someone previously said afraid to make changes because of certain die hards which want the game to be played like they have for years. But I am here to say that there are people that want something really new and I cannot be the only one that is annoyed with the A/PA and regen structure of the game !

[forameuss]

Just now, HUNT3R said:

See here for the last 2 changing PA debates. 

Read @santy001's posts especially. The definition of PA is still there though. You don't automatically become a better player just because you've had 2 good seasons. You've had 2 good seasons because you've had 2 good seasons and you're capable OF having 2 good seasons already.

Also worth emphasising that PA has never been something that the average user is meant to see.  

Florian actually put it well earlier in the thread

24 minutes ago, FlorianAlbert9 said:

A variable PA is unrealistic like the fixed PA. 

Simple there is no PA in real life and the game must reflects that.*

Following what OP said, the problem is not that a player who made 35 goals stay with a 120 PA but that a player with 120 CA can score 35 goals.

*Well, i think there is a PA for some phisical attributes and a standard PA, that only 1 player every 15 years can excedeed. 

PA is a construct that is necessary in the game to govern player development.  You could argue it's "unrealistic" given you can't quantify it in such bald terms in real life.  But it's a necessary thing to have in the game that is governed by calculations and the like.  But dynamic PA would be another step up in the unrealistic stakes, taking the loose connection between real life and throwing it out of the window.    Don't think I've ever seen a convincing argument for it.  If there was one, I'd happily take all of it back.

[Martin#]

Also, another problem I have is with attribute distribution of newgens. There is an obvious pattern when players seriously lack in terms of aggression and bravery. In general, mental stats are distributed extremely poorly in newgens and it has been going on for years.

[wrezanini1]

Just now, forameuss said:

Also worth emphasising that PA has never been something that the average user is meant to see.  

Florian actually put it well earlier in the thread

PA is a construct that is necessary in the game to govern player development.  You could argue it's "unrealistic" given you can't quantify it in such bald terms in real life.  But it's a necessary thing to have in the game that is governed by calculations and the like.  But dynamic PA would be another step up in the unrealistic stakes, taking the loose connection between real life and throwing it out of the window.    Don't think I've ever seen a convincing argument for it.  If there was one, I'd happily take all of it back.

Hers how FM is and has been for years, when you open a new FM version what do you do ? You setup tactics, training, buy/sell new players setup whatever and u tinker back and fourth until you find a bit of a sweet spot and of you go you do the same thing over and over and over and over again until you get sick of winning and close the game just in time at the end of the football season around july. Then you take a break until november and start al over again !

What happens if you start tinkering with the "new features" such as leaving a comment when everyone in your squad is at perfect morale... well you are at the risk of making your players unhappy.. so what happens.. you do not make a comment ever because you know that you are just risking of triggering a hole which will hurt your player morale. And there are more examples of these "new features" being basically holes to make your players morale worse its the same old dynamic just new questions and answers.

Regens for the love of everything are you telling me that new regens do not appear in samoa or some other exotic island and that defenders do not have 20 pace and 20 acc but 5-6 jumping and 20 heading ? 

Also why not make a point system reward system call it whatever you like which "we the player" can chose to use to create a designed regen of your liking, no you do not need to force everyone to use it. A/PA do not need to be changed for that. Give me some kind of reward other than a fancy title on a hall of fame wall of text !

Dynamic PA is complicated of course it is so is everything but cmon we are humans here if you don't try to change for the better you will never ever become better ! 

 

[forameuss]

11 minutes ago, wrezanini1 said:

Listen mate wherever this debate leads us I hope it leads to sigames taking some of us which obviously think the game needs something new seriously, something that will actually exite me or even make me frustrated at first ! 

What makes me the most sad is i know exactly what to do to "beat" the game only thing i need to do is to find the settings and i'm done doing the same thing ive done the last 10 years in the game ! THAT IS THE WORST FEELING OF AL ! 

You are here with a bit of a hammer and hammering away at almost every argument i have which you dislike ! That's not really a discussion that's you being on that high horse and stroking sigames hair. I am not here to win a popularity contest I am here to voice my annoyance on a topic that honestly is really close to my heart which is FM !

I honestly think that they are as someone previously said afraid to make changes because of certain die hards which want the game to be played like they have for years. But I am here to say that there are people that want something really new and I cannot be the only one that is annoyed with the A/PA and regen structure of the game !

You really need to start handling people disagreeing with you a little better.  

Or just keep the righteous defenders of the true way act up, and treat any dissenting voice as some kind of SI bot.  Sure easier than actually discussing a point, eh?

Seriously, what actual discussion points have you offered?  I asked what "new" features could be brought in, and you've come up with being awarded a regen for winning a competition.  Anything else or is that it?  For a game that has apparently had nothing new for years, I would've thought you had a long list.  And don't equate the opposite with people not wanting the game to change.  There isn't anything revolutionary they can put into the game without taking it in a massively different direction than they have been for two decades.  It's a football management simulation, there isn't really many places they can go.  What they can do is refine what they already have to make sure the features they do have are as tight as they can be, and innovate within that.  Which they're doing.

Just now, wrezanini1 said:

Hers how FM is and has been for years, when you open a new FM version what do you do ? You setup tactics, training, buy/sell new players setup whatever and u tinker back and fourth until you find a bit of a sweet spot and of you go you do the same thing over and over and over and over again until you get sick of winning and close the game just in time at the end of the football season around july. Then you take a break until november and start al over again !

Actually, if I'm being honest, I open it, realise it's just as tedious as it has been for a few years now, then go and do something else.  Coming back a few times over the year for a few weeks.

But that doesn't really fit your view, does it?

1 minute ago, wrezanini1 said:

Also why not make a point system reward system call it whatever you like which "we the player" can chose to use to create a designed regen of your liking, no you do not need to force everyone to use it. A/PA do not need to be changed for that. Give me some kind of reward other than a fancy title on a hall of fame wall of text !

Because that's quite obviously not the direction they've taken ANY feature.  If you think it's a great idea, go put it in the features request forum.  Maybe there's this huge untapped market that it'll tap into, but I doubt it.

1 minute ago, wrezanini1 said:

Dynamic PA is complicated of course it is so is everything but cmon we are humans here if you don't try to change for the better you will never ever become better ! 

 

...complexity isn't the problem.  Complete lack of realism or sense in the feature is the problem.  Have you actually read anything people have posted on the subject?

 

 

[jcp1417]

19 minutes ago, RedHot said:

not necessary true. you scored 21 goals because you played with suarez who made you look good while you are just.....sturridge. So it's not your ability, and yes I believe that if a striker keeps scoring goals some attributes should increase ....heading, finishing....

If I played with Suarez I would still be me. current abilities matter.

You have it backwards. goals are the product of ratings, not the other way around. it's not logical to get magically better at something for producing results. If that was the case, then everyone would perpetually get better at everything until the end of time

[wrezanini1]

Just now, forameuss said:

You really need to start handling people disagreeing with you a little better.  

Or just keep the righteous defenders of the true way act up, and treat any dissenting voice as some kind of SI bot.  Sure easier than actually discussing a point, eh?

Seriously, what actual discussion points have you offered?  I asked what "new" features could be brought in, and you've come up with being awarded a regen for winning a competition.  Anything else or is that it?  For a game that has apparently had nothing new for years, I would've thought you had a long list.  And don't equate the opposite with people not wanting the game to change.  There isn't anything revolutionary they can put into the game without taking it in a massively different direction than they have been for two decades.  It's a football management simulation, there isn't really many places they can go.  What they can do is refine what they already have to make sure the features they do have are as tight as they can be, and innovate within that.  Which they're doing.

 ok the game is perfect and is getting even more perfected by the year according to you, according to me they have sharpened that knife so much so that it is beginning to be frankly not sharp ! And how about a new knife ? Or maybe a sword every once in a while that can be sharpened to perfection as well... ?

Frankly the game has no surprises i open it every new version has a new hole which you can fall into and once you do, you just avoid that hole or find a way around it and play the game same as you have for the previous 20 years! 

The last time Sigames took a risk was when they developed a graphical match engine  and look how that turned out pretty decent, it serves its purpose. 

So you want me the user to give Sigames an idea which will revolutionize their game ? Ive got a job, and its not being a game developer. How funny I thought i was the one who is supposed to be entertained and given something new every once in a while for my money and time that i spend with the game ?

 

[forameuss]

1 minute ago, wrezanini1 said:

 ok the game is perfect and is getting even more perfected by the year according to you, according to me they have sharpened that knife so much so that it is beginning to be frankly not sharp ! And how about a new knife ? Or maybe a sword every once in a while that can be sharpened to perfection as well... ?

Frankly the game has no surprises i open it every new version has a new hole which you can fall into and once you do, you just avoid that hole or find a way around it and play the game same as you have for the previous 20 years! 

The last time Sigames took a risk was when they developed a graphical match engine  and look how that turned out pretty decent, it serves its purpose. 

So you want me the user to give Sigames an idea which will revolutionize their game ? Ive got a job, and its not being a game developer. How funny I thought i was the one who is supposed to be entertained and given something new every once in a while for my money and time that i spend with the game ?

Well I can't say I'm surprised.  Flippant start to the post that serves no purpose, then sticks the landing with an "it's not my job" retort.  Bravo.  Debate well and truly won.

[FlorianAlbert9]

40 minuti fa, HUNT3R ha scritto:

There is a PA IRL, especially considering that we're not getting a newborn baby. They're already 15-16. If a player with 120 CA scores 35 goals, then there's clearly no need for him to increase more? He's already doing fantastically well. Why can't he just be a 120 CA player who is being used to his maximum ability?

No, there isn't a prove that IRL have PA. Scouts based their reports on CA and mentality (professionalism, etc..). 

(A part, as i said, phisical thats is limit by one's genetic)

The actual system is weak 'cause in the game a player with al physical at 20 and mental like professionalism, hard working etc. at 20 and with all tech at 1 is he gas fullfil his PA, he cannot neither go from 1 to 2. 

We need a system with a limit PA that is the same for everyone (a part for very rare game-changer) where player can grow-up thanks ti matches played, mentality and level of structures.

[HUNT3R]

Just now, FlorianAlbert9 said:

No, there isn't a prove that IRL have PA. Scouts based their reports on CA and mentality (professionalism, etc..). 

(A part, as i said, phisical thats is limit by one's genetic)

The actual system is weak 'cause in the game a player with al physical at 20 and mental like professionalism, hard working etc. at 20 and with all tech at 1 is he gas fullfil his PA, he cannot neither go from 1 to 2. 

We need a system with a limit PA that is the same for everyone (a part for very rare game-changer) where player can grow-up thanks ti matches played, mentality and level of structures.

I would suggest you read the posted links to the the old threads. 

[RedHot]

5 minutes ago, jcp1417 said:

If I played with Suarez I would still be me. current abilities matter.

You have it backwards. goals are the product of ratings, not the other way around. it's not logical to get magically better at something for producing results. If that was the case, then everyone would perpetually get better at everything until the end of time

it depends how you see things.....and it is subject to debate. The facts are there and can't be denied. Just look at sturridge career stats or most players who played and were decent at barcelona or other big teams. You just can't lose your marker but playing with suarez who knows how to open defenses dragging players out of positions left you in favorable positions and you scored lots of goals. 

[wrezanini1]

Here is a valid idea i've had for some time: I love playing fm against my friends but being an adult we have different jobs and even lag is an issue. 

Why not develop a turn based online section of the game where i play say 10 games but not his team and then he can play his 10 games whenever he has the time and then i can continue, meaning not playing the game in real time but rather turn based system were we can still compete and even play our teams when the other one is not there. Or maybe we schedule to play just the games our teams play on a certain time.

Why this would be good well connections and lag is always an issue but mostly the time he or me takes to set up everything is different and we wouldn't have to be forced to play in real time instead whenever we like but still compete against each other ?

I hope everyone understands what i am trying to say. 

 

[HUNT3R]

Just now, wrezanini1 said:

Here is a valid idea i've had for some time: I love playing fm against my friends but being an adult we have different jobs and even lag is an issue. 

Why not develop a turn based online section of the game where i play say 10 games but not his team and then he can play his 10 games whenever he has the time and then i can continue, meaning not playing the game in real time but rather turn based system were we can still compete and even play our teams when the other one is not there. Or maybe we schedule to play just the games our teams play on a certain time.

Why this would be good well connections and lag is always an issue but mostly the time he or me takes to set up everything is different and we wouldn't have to be forced to play in real time instead whenever we like but still compete against each other ?

I hope everyone understands what i am trying to say. 

 

As I said - if you have ideas for future releases - post it in the feature requests section.  

[wrezanini1]

Just now, HUNT3R said:

As I said - if you have ideas for future releases - post it in the feature requests section.  

Yes sorry I just did. 

I mean as i have said before I was expecting people to react and a reaction is what I wanted because frankly i really do not think the community is that big and FM is not really a game that attracts huge number of new buyers, the new buyers are I think mostly generation of new hardcore football manager that is perhaps passed on from previous generations. I could be wrong of course I do not have the proof of any of it.

To me the game has just become a repeat of last years games with minor tweaks which really do not affect the game by much and you barely notice it. Of course I could be considered a seasoned player and whatever new things comes a long i find a way to "beat" that tweak but the game at its core is still the same. There are no real how should i put it carrots that make you want to play the game any differently than say playing in a new league or making up your own fantasy of which league, team you want to manage. 

 

[Seb Wassell]

Note on the PA point - PA is your genetic maximum.

You cannot exceed this. No matter how much I train, play or improve I'll never be better than Messi. He simply has a higher ceiling than me, and that is PA.

Jamie Vardy was a research "bug", he always had the potential to do what he has done but realised it later than most. Of course, he is the exception that proves the researchers correct 99% of the time. No one saw that coming, so his PA was adjusted to reflect the new reality.

[pejocho]

I do not understand the usefulness of a dynamic PA. Precisely the PA serves as a limit to prevent any player who makes a good season from becoming a top player. Dani Güiza scored 27 goals in the Spanish league a few years ago, however he did not improve and he never did a good season again, so his CA and his PA did not increase because he scored 27 goals. If Vardy was a regen, he would be a player who, with a low CA and a high PA, takes a few years to evolve and reach his PA.

[santy001]

I've made very extensive posts on dynamic PA, malleable PA, shifting in the ether PA, or whatever guise it goes under.

It won't work. 

Why I hear you ask?

Because people are too clever for the systems that can be developed. Now, even if you individually reading this post whoever you are, aren't clever enough to win out against such a system. There's plenty of people on these forums alone who have the patience and interest in pushing FM systems to their limits. If there is a system with any degree of flexibility, any degree of criteria based growth then players will - within weeks if not days of implementation - beat the system. 

The only way to stop this is complete arbitrariness based on an RNG system. That isn't anything realistic at all. 

- - -

Whether you disagree with the assessments of researchers or not is an entirely different matter. But PA is meant to represent the genetic/god-given/whatever you believe in limit a human being has in the context of football. I've made this point before, but surely everyone agrees that no matter how hard you work in life, no matter how well you flap your little arms - they're never going to turn into wings and give you flight. 

That is what PA is representing, but on an individual scale instead of a species wide avian development scale. You can't argue that PA as a concept is wrong. People simply have limitations, the weakness which we can all happily admit to is that we don't actually know with cast iron certainty that their potential is X. But we're asked to make a judgement, and no matter what system you envisage in its place - we'll still be asked to make a judgement so attacking and criticising that area is wrong. Or at the very least, will yield no results so is self-defeating anyway.

- - -

One thing so many don't realise is that those who've been around on the forums, we've all largely had similar thoughts about various game systems. When people pop up with their thoughts on dynamic PA, they aren't the first. Hell go back far enough in time through my posts (if they're all there) you will find myself making a foolish post back in the day that if X/Y signed for Man Utd they'd probably get a boost. Fortunately people like @Powlay were around to tell me to not be an idiot because that's not how it works.

I've meandered down the thought paths of PA being absurd. I've had thoughts in the past it should be more flexible, one idea that always niggles in the back of my mind is that ought it be split into 2 or 3 because it always felt that physical potential was very different to technical potential? But then it becomes more of a quagmire to think how to accurately represent players so it doesn't really go anywhere either. 

Ultimately had there even been a flexible system in place, its extremely unlikely Vardy would have actually come to the fore in FM games over the same period. Maybe in 1 persons save out of all the saves played per year it could have happened with some kind of dynamic system - but ultimately that isn't what FM is aspiring to. FM is aspiring to, perhaps impossibly, the point at which if a player becomes a great success you've seen that happen on previous editions of FM. If a player starts bright and fails, you've seen it on previous editions of FM. If a player makes a late career surge - you've seen it on FM. 

And there's a whole host of other improvements that SI are making and will no doubt continue to make that improve the rates of success for the games database compared to real life.

 

[RedHot]

PA is and will always be an open debate. Comparison with real life is more or less relevant from certain points of view. I often saw topics related to FM predicting true stars or failing in doing so. 

There is one thing FM did, constantly failing in predicting stats. In the end the stats are part of PA. I can give you many examples but now lets talk about one in particular: Mbappe.

FM15 he was a 17 years old 5* potential. You can play how many saves you want, how many seasons you want, Mbappe never gets the stats he has at the start of the FM19. How much can you actually improve Mbappe in FM19? Not that much, but definitely when FM20 will be released, Mbappe will look much better than you can make him look like in FM19. This is just one example.

This is just a football manager game. The only one in the market, sadly because competition is what drives things forward.