Holding a lead

[oblongata21]

Hi everybody.

Im having some issues when playing with Newcastle with holding a lead. So far in the seaaon im playing, ive lost a 2 or 3 goal advantage 7 times. 

Im playing a 4-1-3-2 with my fullbacks on support and a defensive midfielder. I usually switch my DM to a defensive role when im in front and my fullbacks if the opposition starts getting dangerous. I also switch my mentality to defensive. But despite taking these measures, im unable to hold the lead.

My defenders all seem to have decent concentration (lowest is 14) and Newcastle is currently in the championship so its not like we are playing premier league sides. Does anyone have any suggestions or ideas so i can stop this from happening so often?

[borivoje213]

Do you notice a specific type of goal you're conceding more than others?

[oblongata21]

7 minutes ago, borivoje213 said:

Do you notice a specific type of goal you're conceding more than others?

Nothing specific, but a couple of times my defenders were caught napping and basically just watched my opponents strikers gather the ball and run past them. I tried dropping defensive line to stop that but it never works

[kpsia518]

34 minutes ago, oblongata21 said:

Nothing specific, but a couple of times my defenders were caught napping and basically just watched my opponents strikers gather the ball and run past them. I tried dropping defensive line to stop that but it never works

there are 2 defensive style,pressing & containment.
so how you defend ?

if you play pressing defensive style,try containment style when you need to defend the lead.

https://www.guidetofootball.com/tactics/defensive-styles

 

1)pressing style = press high,just like kloop & pep tactic,they pressing more.

player try to push forward & try to win the ball,so get more ball possession.

 

2)containment = sitting off,Manutd play like this in Fergie era.

player wait for ball,don't care what AI doing,just wait for ball at the backline.

wait for ball,so low pressing,that mean low ball possession.

passive attacking style,but AI no room to shoot

 

[borivoje213]

I definitely sympathise.  If you were to put your full tactic up you'd get a million and one analysis/suggestions, together with endless reasons why and where you're supposedly going wrong.  My suggestion would start with 'Have you tried', which is probably the best way to look at it, if you're finding that going specifically more defensive is having little to no effect then I'd try something wholly different.  

At the moment counter is as defensive as I ever go.  And in terms of holding leads I've found more positive mentalities to be more successful because at the point you have a 2 or 3 nil lead you'll notice your team's body language is really good.  I often find a more patient possession based but not defensive approach can work really well as at that point you can still attack but take less risk since you don't "need" the extra goals and the longer you keep the ball the less they can come at you.  Since they're really pushing at that point it leaves them fairly weak at the back so even with fairly little pressure you can find yourself extending by the odd goal as often as you concede.  Their body language is usually frustrated at that point anyway, so any reduction in time on the ball for them can compound the issue.  There's no point in over complicating it with me throwing roles and duties at you because you know your team more than anyone.  

When holding a lead I tend to use things like play out of defence, run with ball less, be more disciplined, work ball into box.  Since waiting patiently for that opening, preferring to make a safe pass rather than risking taking players on, and then being more disciplined so that they are more likely to follow those instructions than try something dramatic.  This works better (IMO) than using retain possession, which both limits range of passing and slows tempo which can be suicidal against a team that is desperate for the ball so they can attack, as it kind of forces players to dwell on the ball with limited passing options while they're being closed down exceptionally quickly.  Although I would generally use run with ball less on fluid/very fluid and/or attacking mentality with quite deep support options as you can usually be guaranteed they'll have a passing option.  Whereas if you're more conservative and balanced/structured it can be better to give them the option to run the ball out of trouble.

[oblongata21]

Thanks guys. I shouldve mentioned before i press a bit, try to close down my opponents more. I will try to keep a bit more structured and hold the shape and counter instead of completely defend.

Still open to more suggestions though

[kpsia518]

39 minutes ago, oblongata21 said:

Thanks guys. I shouldve mentioned before i press a bit, try to close down my opponents more. I will try to keep a bit more structured and hold the shape and counter instead of completely defend.

Still open to more suggestions though

 

low pressing style good for time-wasting.

remember i have a low block 442,with low pressing,stand-off defensive style.I got low possession on ball,but got AI no room to shot.

but,

after i play this style for too many game,AI play slow football too.
AI make one pass per 8~10 sec.

 

so that is slow slow boring match

[sporadicsmiles]

It does sound like you are inviting pressure. All of your changes are quite negative. In particular, moving to a defensive style is not going to automatically make you concede less. It may actually make things worse for you. As you move more defensive, you decrease tempo, you decrease the default defensive line, your passes are less risky and in general you play less risky football. It can lead to you getting pinned back in your own half, which is never helpful. 

[summatsupeer]

12 hours ago, oblongata21 said:

Im having some issues when playing with Newcastle with holding a lead.

...

I usually switch my DM to a defensive role when im in front and my fullbacks if the opposition starts getting dangerous. I also switch my mentality to defensive. But despite taking these measures, im unable to hold the lead.

...

Why change things so much when they're going well?

Stick to what your team does well. If your good at pressing then keep pressing, yes you can drop mentality to be a bit safer but don't just invite more and more pressure.  Just dropping 1 mentality level is a big change.

Look at your bench too, do you have good options with fresh legs to bring on towards the end of the game?  The lower a players condition the chance of them making a mistake increases.

[Experienced Defender]

There are two basic ways to hold a lead. If your players overall are tactically intelligent (off the ball, decisions, vision, positioning, anticipation...) and good technically (passing, first touch, technique etc.), you can better hold the lead by playing possession football and thus keeping the ball away from the OP. If not, then the better idea is to sit deeper and defend intelligently (here you can use OIs to good effect).

[oblongata21]

21 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

It does sound like you are inviting pressure. All of your changes are quite negative. In particular, moving to a defensive style is not going to automatically make you concede less. It may actually make things worse for you. As you move more defensive, you decrease tempo, you decrease the default defensive line, your passes are less risky and in general you play less risky football. It can lead to you getting pinned back in your own half, which is never helpful. 

Would you suggest I play more of a controlled, less risky game instead?

[oblongata21]

16 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

Why change things so much when they're going well?

Stick to what your team does well. If your good at pressing then keep pressing, yes you can drop mentality to be a bit safer but don't just invite more and more pressure.  Just dropping 1 mentality level is a big change.

Look at your bench too, do you have good options with fresh legs to bring on towards the end of the game?  The lower a players condition the chance of them making a mistake increases.

My tactic usually goes well for the first half and most the second half, but they cant seem to adapt to pressure from the opposition, thats why i was changing the mentality. Most the late goals I conceded were in the last 15-20 minutes. One game i conceded 4 in 15 minutes after having a 3 goal lead for the first 75 minutes. Thats the reason why I had to change my mentality.

Does anyone ever add tactic to opposition players too? Like closing down, tighter marking etc

[sporadicsmiles]

3 hours ago, oblongata21 said:

Would you suggest I play more of a controlled, less risky game instead?

It can help, yes, especially if you have the players to do it. You can still make some defensive changes, like making fullbacks be more defensive, or removing some attack duties, but the best way for good sides to close out a game is to control it rather than backs to the wall defending. 

[summatsupeer]

3 hours ago, oblongata21 said:

My tactic usually goes well for the first half and most the second half, but they cant seem to adapt to pressure from the opposition, thats why i was changing the mentality. Most the late goals I conceded were in the last 15-20 minutes. One game i conceded 4 in 15 minutes after having a 3 goal lead for the first 75 minutes. Thats the reason why I had to change my mentality.

Does anyone ever add tactic to opposition players too? Like closing down, tighter marking etc

Typically opponents will go overload near the end if they are behind but the game is close. If they're that far behind then they typically stay same or "damage limitation".

Does your team lack stamina which could make you weaker at end of games?  Are the players overconfident? Then after opponents start there comeback switches to nervous?

Like I said you can make changes but they should be reasoned and not just " park the bus".  What is your normal tactic?  Is it particularly susceptible to other styles?

[oblongata21]

5 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

It can help, yes, especially if you have the players to do it. You can still make some defensive changes, like making fullbacks be more defensive, or removing some attack duties, but the best way for good sides to close out a game is to control it rather than backs to the wall defending. 

I tried it, didnt work. Now drawn my last 5 games. Winning 2-0, my opponent scored in the 80th and 92nd minute to tie it. And the next games i was 2-0 up and comceded in the 82nd and 87th minute. 

Update: next game 1-0 up, conceded 89th minute. Im about to give up because this is ridiculous :-/

[sporadicsmiles]

I think if you want any further help you will have to post your normal setup, and the setups you have been using when trying to see out games. We can give generic information, but if it does not work, then we probably need to look at specifics. 

[AFCBeer]

My approach I’m sure will be different to most other managers but I do believe in the ‘parking the bus’ method. The important point is that if you do choose to park the bus you have to fully commit to it. 

There are lots of different ways to park the bus and how I set up is dependent on the opposition. The first thing I do is look at their formation and look at where they leave gaps. I then try to put a playmaking role in one of the gaps as my outlet. 

Next I work out where the threat is coming from. To nullify a threat I’ve done lots of crazy things. It might be I play a FB and a WB on the same side of the pitch. If they have a winger who likes to dribble inside, then using an off centre DMC can be useful. 

I nearly always get my wide midfielders to man mark full backs. When the AI goes all out attack, they use full backs very aggressively so it’s vital to counter this. 

If there is a full back who pushes up, I might position a striker off centre to exploit this space. Then again I might not even use a striker. When needs must, I’ve used formations such as a back 4, 3 DMC’s, an MR & ML and an AMC. People might say that invites too much pressure but if it gets the job done!

There are some games where I don’t change when defending a lead. But if you do decide to shut up shop, commit to it. The worst thing is to be in no mans land which is where most of the orthodox thinking on defending a lead will result in. 

[Dfs]

I`ve decided to share my recent experiences on that field, maybe someone will find it usefull. My last season I managed Gelsenkirchen. I usually use a very aggrrssive attacking 4231 deep (with two dms), slightly higher line, closing down much more, prevent short gk distribution and get stuck in. My team has a very high work rate so basically I want a very high intensity tactic.

Anyways last season i had huge problems with holding a lead, giving it up multiple times including two times being 2:0 ahead at home and once being 4:0 away (in 55th minute against Stuttgart). The more times it was happening the more rapid my reaction was so I ended up usually dropping the mentality and reducing the level of closing down. Didn't work.

This season I've decided not to overreact and I do one of two things. Against weaker teams I drop the mentality from attacking to control and switch retain posession on. Also I make sure my gk has instruction to distribute to center backs (when opponent has one striker and two ams on the wings) or fullbacks (when the opponent has two strikers). Against strong teams I change the formation to 433 with one dm that plays similar to my standard formation (also closing down much more etc) but it has control mentality and lower defensive line. Works really well so far.

[sporadicsmiles]

7 hours ago, AFCBeer said:

My approach I’m sure will be different to most other managers but I do believe in the ‘parking the bus’ method. The important point is that if you do choose to park the bus you have to fully commit to it. 

There are lots of different ways to park the bus and how I set up is dependent on the opposition. The first thing I do is look at their formation and look at where they leave gaps. I then try to put a playmaking role in one of the gaps as my outlet. 

Next I work out where the threat is coming from. To nullify a threat I’ve done lots of crazy things. It might be I play a FB and a WB on the same side of the pitch. If they have a winger who likes to dribble inside, then using an off centre DMC can be useful. 

I nearly always get my wide midfielders to man mark full backs. When the AI goes all out attack, they use full backs very aggressively so it’s vital to counter this. 

If there is a full back who pushes up, I might position a striker off centre to exploit this space. Then again I might not even use a striker. When needs must, I’ve used formations such as a back 4, 3 DMC’s, an MR & ML and an AMC. People might say that invites too much pressure but if it gets the job done!

There are some games where I don’t change when defending a lead. But if you do decide to shut up shop, commit to it. The worst thing is to be in no mans land which is where most of the orthodox thinking on defending a lead will result in. 

I agree that parking the bus is sometimes required and extremely useful, as long as it is done well. I actually played a game yesterday where I was reduced to 10 men just before half time, and the AI came out with a 424 in the second half (I had a 1 goal lead at this point). I parked the bus big time, I went with a 441 with two DMCs, my wide players man marking the wingers for the AI (which gave me a back 6 at some points). I played defensive, direct with pass into space so my lone striker could perhaps get on balls that were cleared. I think I also played narrower to take away the middle. In the end, we held onto the lead, and the AI created very little and the majority of their shots were from outside the box. However, it was painfully reactive, and I think I had one shot in the second half. That is why I am not a fan of doing this often, it invites pressure and it takes one defensive lapse or one bit of awesome play to get a goal. I trust my current defense a lot, so it works more than not, but it is a huge gamble. You seem to actually think carefully about how to shut down the opposition, and this is the key to defending and parking the bus. You cannot just go set a defensive mentality and hope, you have to identify and eliminate the main threats (although I admit I never quite take it as far as you!).

On a similar note, it is entirely possible to park the bus from the start and carry a very real threat up front. This is what I will go for when I play this way from the start (not to protect a lead). I usually play a 4213 when I do this. The pair of DMCs provide a strong central defensive group of players, and the CM will be primed to get forward. I play with both wider players on attack (man marking can be used if I want them to track back). The main aim then is to get the ball onto the flanks where I have pacy players who can be direct (and generate my own counter attacks). Or to use these fast players to counter from defensive corners. This has been super effective in my current save; I beat Bayern away with a beautiful counter attack goal, with about 35% possession and only 1 shot on target (the AI must have been posting on it's boards to complain about unrealistic results). I almost got a win away to Dortmund too, but they equalised late on with a wonder goal.

[herne79]

19 hours ago, oblongata21 said:

I tried it, didnt work. Now drawn my last 5 games. Winning 2-0, my opponent scored in the 80th and 92nd minute to tie it. And the next games i was 2-0 up and comceded in the 82nd and 87th minute. 

Update: next game 1-0 up, conceded 89th minute. Im about to give up because this is ridiculous :-/

I think it's about time you posted your complete tactical set up please.  We can generalise about things but in order to be more specific we need to know what you're up to.

Also, when leading did you make any changes before you started conceding?  If so, what did you do?  Did your opponents make any changes before you conceded and if so what?  Did you react at all to their changes by tweaking things?

Do any of your players look complacent or nervous during these end of match periods?  What team talks do you give at half time or even during the match from the side lines?  How do your players react to those talks?

[oblongata21]

22 hours ago, herne79 said:

I think it's about time you posted your complete tactical set up please.  We can generalise about things but in order to be more specific we need to know what you're up to.

Also, when leading did you make any changes before you started conceding?  If so, what did you do?  Did your opponents make any changes before you conceded and if so what?  Did you react at all to their changes by tweaking things?

Do any of your players look complacent or nervous during these end of match periods?  What team talks do you give at half time or even during the match from the side lines?  How do your players react to those talks?

Ok, this is my main formation.

The first in a 4-2-3-1

I play with 2 attacking fullbacks, 2 central defenders on defend duty, 2  central midielders, one set to box to box, the second is a defensive playmaker, two inside forwards on th wings, and my attacking midfielder is either a shadow striker or attacking midfielder. I play either on standard or control mentality depending on opponent, with work ball into box, retain possesion, more disciplined and depending on opponent i either play a deeper defensive line or standard.

I dont make any changes before I condede. If the opponents start getting control of the match, and start getting more shots, or more space, I usually drop my fullbacks to a defensive or support duty, i can also bring on defensive midfielders or drop my starting midfielders to defensive midfielders and if i get desperate I drop my wingers back into a midfield position so im playing a 4-4-2. I have noticed a couple of times that the opponents wingers push forward a lot more and seem to get wide behind my fullbacks and get crosses in, or they bring on another striker.  They push forward a lot more to.

I only have 1 or 2 complacent players and it goes the same for nervous players. My half time team talks if im winning by a small margin is usally "dont become complacent"  most of them react positively. During the match if my opponent starts getting on top, i tell them to concentrate and occasionally tighten up, not sure if that works or not (it doesnt seem to) or if tighten up goes against my tactics.

Hope that helps

 

 

[Experienced Defender]

@oblongata21 Which duties do you give to your Inside Forwards and which team shape(s) you use? You also did not tell anything about the striker (role, duty)? As for fullbacks, I would change one of them to support duty, and that would be the one playing on the same side as the BtBM. In 4231 your two CMs are most important, they really need to be good in order for the tactic to work. Don't use a particular formation just because you like it. Use it only if you have the right players.

[oblongata21]

15 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

@oblongata21 Which duties do you give to your Inside Forwards and which team shape(s) you use? You also did not tell anything about the striker (role, duty)? As for fullbacks, I would change one of them to support duty, and that would be the one playing on the same side as the BtBM. In 4231 your two CMs are most important, they really need to be good in order for the tactic to work. Don't use a particular formation just because you like it. Use it only if you have the right players.

Inside forwards are both on support tactics, and my striker rotates between a target man, advanced forward and poacher, all on attack.

And yes, I am using this tactic because it suits my players

[sporadicsmiles]

3 hours ago, oblongata21 said:

I play with 2 attacking fullbacks, 2 central defenders on defend duty, 2  central midielders, one set to box to box, the second is a defensive playmaker, two inside forwards on th wings, and my attacking midfielder is either a shadow striker or attacking midfielder. I play either on standard or control mentality depending on opponent, with work ball into box, retain possesion, more disciplined and depending on opponent i either play a deeper defensive line or standard.

So the main weakness of the 4231 is that there is a lot of space in front of the defense, and a lot of space on the flanks. As @Experienced Defender notes, your CMs are super important in this tactic, but so are your full backs. These are the players you are relying on to cover the space around them. You are making the space available to exploit a lot worse by pushing up both full backs with their attack duty. If you lose the ball in the opposition half, you will have only two defenders left to cover (the DLP can also help out, but he is more advanced). That is a lot of space to exploit by a team who is happy to play direct. The first thing you could do is make one of the bull backs more defensive by switching to support or defend after you score (or after you score 2, it is easier to defend a two goal lead). Probably the one on the side with the BBM. This gives you a little more defensive cover, and you will be less open to counter attacks and direct football. If you face a 442 (or any formation with two permanent strikers) I would do this from the start. I do not want to constantly leave a 2v2 in my defense. A 2v3 situation is preferable, always. You can always have a winger instead of IF if you want to keep some width on that side.

Second thing I would look at would be the BBM. Like I said above, he is going to get forward when you attack. Now, his role will also mean he does get back and defend, but it will take him some time, and your shape is disrupted until he does so. I would make sure that your DLP has attributes that make him a good holding player (tackling, anticipation, etc) by default anyway. He needs to be strong defensively. When you are leading, do you really need another body getting forward and leaving you exposed? You can change the BBM to a CM(S), for instance. Even a CM(D), you would have to see what works for you. Either way, you probably want to keep both central midfielders in more holding roles. You can also change the AMC to have a role with support duty, as this will make him drop deeper and help out more in defense.

Finally, you can make sure your forwards are not totally useless when you defend. If I come up against marauding fullbacks, I will tend to use the advanced wide players I have to man mark them anyway. It drags them to defend for me, and whilst it can blunt counter attacking, it stops overlaps on my flanks. You can also use the front 4 players to harry the opposition by giving them close down more PIs.

3 hours ago, oblongata21 said:

I dont make any changes before I condede. If the opponents start getting control of the match, and start getting more shots, or more space, I usually drop my fullbacks to a defensive or support duty, i can also bring on defensive midfielders or drop my starting midfielders to defensive midfielders and if i get desperate I drop my wingers back into a midfield position so im playing a 4-4-2. I have noticed a couple of times that the opponents wingers push forward a lot more and seem to get wide behind my fullbacks and get crosses in, or they bring on another striker.  They push forward a lot more to.

So, ideally you want to make changes before you concede, especially if you are noticing the AI gaining more control in the match. The things I said above are for your default formation. I am not a fan of changing formations around for the sake of it. You have to have a proper idea of what you want each formation to do. Both in defense and in attack. A poorly thought out tactic with no attacking options is going to put you under more pressure than changing nothing. So let's take the example of bringing on a DMC. I assume you would take off the AMC to do this. Are you going to keep the same roles and duties for everyone else in the side? Are you going to keep the same TIs? I most definitely would not. The space in a 433 with a DMC is completely different to the 4231. I now have space in front of my midfield rather than behind. Instead of worrying about covering the space behind, I have to think about how to exploit (and also cover) the space in front. That means I would change at least two of the roles you described in your first tactic.

Now, I do not get the impression you have a clear idea of what any new formation you switch to is going to actually do, or maybe even what you want it to do. While a 4231 with two DMCs is going to be more solid in principle than the 4231, it definitely does not play the same for the reasons I described above. You need to make sure you still function as a cohesive unit. In that case, making sure that the defensive half of your team is not disconnected from the attacking half. Things like "retain possession" may result in your defensive players keeping the ball in a dangerous area of the pitch, for example, which is clearly not going to help you out defensively.

What I would suggest for you here is to think of a defensive tactic in the same way you thought of the attacking one. What do you want your players to do? What are they going to do in defense to stop goals? How are you going to continue to carry a goal threat? What sort of passes will they play? Who will get forward? From that, you can then make a good choice about the formation, the mentality, shape, roles and duties that you should use. Maybe even some of the TIs. You can even maybe just list them here, state what you want to happen, and if you have ideas say how you think you can do this in the game. We can then all chip in with our own ideas about how to achieve this, and you can then go and try some of these out in the game.

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, oblongata21 said:

And yes, I am using this tactic because it suits my players 

Okay then. Here is what I would first change in your tactic if I used a 4231 in order to make it more solid and balanced:

F9/DLFs

APMs       SS        IFa

BtBM    DLPd

FBa    CDc    CDd     WBs

SWKs/d

I'd probably go with Fluid shape. The striker and SS - close down much more. Wide forwards (AMR&L)- close down more. When trying to hold a lead, I'd switch to Counter/Structured and set up roles and duties this way:

DFs/d

APMs    AMs/a     IFs

BWMd   CAR

FBs   CDc/d  CDd   WBd

SWKd

 

[Rashidi]

On ‎22‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 08:48, oblongata21 said:

Hi everybody.

Im having some issues when playing with Newcastle with holding a lead. So far in the seaaon im playing, ive lost a 2 or 3 goal advantage 7 times. 

Im playing a 4-1-3-2 with my fullbacks on support and a defensive midfielder. I usually switch my DM to a defensive role when im in front and my fullbacks if the opposition starts getting dangerous. I also switch my mentality to defensive. But despite taking these measures, im unable to hold the lead.

My defenders all seem to have decent concentration (lowest is 14) and Newcastle is currently in the championship so its not like we are playing premier league sides. Does anyone have any suggestions or ideas so i can stop this from happening so often?

This is so general you are going to get a lot of advice leading you nowhere. No one knows if you are underachieving or over achieving. There is no information on your system as a whole, and you haven't even touched on why you concede the goals you do. If you are playing with a 4132, then obviously how you use your wbs is key. Whether you have a good central defender combination is vital.  

At the present time, you are going to get general responses, like its your tactic.

[oblongata21]

Thanks sporadicsmiles and Experienced defender, i will take both of your replies into consideration and try a few things you guys suggested, and see how it goes.

Much appreciated

[oblongata21]

18 hours ago, Rashidi said:

This is so general you are going to get a lot of advice leading you nowhere. No one knows if you are underachieving or over achieving. There is no information on your system as a whole, and you haven't even touched on why you concede the goals you do. If you are playing with a 4132, then obviously how you use your wbs is key. Whether you have a good central defender combination is vital.  

At the present time, you are going to get general responses, like its your tactic.

Yeah I understand, Herne already explained that to me and I posted a more detailed response above.

[Rashidi]

On ‎25‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 16:20, oblongata21 said:

I play with 2 attacking fullbacks, 2 central defenders on defend duty, 2  central midielders, one set to box to box, the second is a defensive playmaker, two inside forwards on th wings, and my attacking midfielder is either a shadow striker or attacking midfielder. I play either on standard or control mentality depending on opponent, with work ball into box, retain possesion, more disciplined and depending on opponent i either play a deeper defensive line or standard.

 

On ‎25‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 18:36, oblongata21 said:

Inside forwards are both on support tactics, and my striker rotates between a target man, advanced forward and poacher, all on attack.

 

2 attacking full backs in a system like that would suggest you will only do well when you camp. You don't really have any strategy to attack space. To top it off, when you lose the ball in midfield transition you leave yourself wide open on the flanks with both fullbacks supporting the attacking transitions. Plus the BBM on one side guarantees you will face issues. This doesn't even consider your player traits.

You are playing retain possession, which in itself does not produce a system where players are actively looking to play balls into space or play through balls which means that your players balance, composure, first touch, passing and off the ball needs to be exceptional. And even then because you are playing more disciplined you aren't giving them the license to try more. 

Defensive lines simply tell your backline how far up you want them to position during a transition when you have the ball. Now looking at your system, you may want to consider some options. Again there is too little information to work off. Like for instance, what kind of players do you have? you have two IFs on the wings and both are on support, with really only the SS attacking space centrally. So how are you creating that space effectively? I don't see that happening. You say that you change your striker's roles to fit the need, when in reality, once you have a solid tactic you shouldn't need to.

Basically every system can go from "come from behind, backs to the wall", to "charging them down". What people need to understand is how to use the space on the pitch.

Its well and good that one can say, I want to play a deep line to hit balls into space and hit them on the break, but how will you do that if you aren't working the attacking third? Here one could do simple things like.
 

1, Keep one fullback on support or even play him as a WB on support, and tell him to close down more, and sit narrow. THis way he supports midfield during transitions. U can even tell him to hold position so he doesn't move forward.
2. You can turn one IF to a Winger on attack. Here you need to think about how you want to find the Winger, for that you may want to consider removing RP or at least give some key players Pass into Space as a PI.
3. Uptop, decide on ONE role for the striker, Poacher, TM, and AF all play very differently. And yes under some circumstances it pays to use an AF, esp against a team that is giving you heaps of space, here we will need to understand that role will demand that you change the role of the AM, you have probably considered that based on your first post. 

There are other options you can consider, if he is indeed good enough to play as a TM, then play him as a DF(D), its an interesting role, because like the Poacher he will always play with back to goal lay the ball off and bring others into play. This could make the AM very dangerous, esp if he has dribbling and likes to get into opp area.

The single biggest issue your system has is that its too safe in the attacking transition, and very risky in the defending transition. Your fix is the roles of the two backs and also giving yourself  a bit more of a dynamic attack that moves a team around.

[westy8chimp]

3 hours ago, Rashidi said:

Your fix is the roles of the two backs and also giving yourself  a bit more of a dynamic attack that moves a team around.

The theme seems to be if(s) to come inside leaving space for attacking fbs to cross to attacking striker and a late arriving am... I think success could be had with thar, albeit one dimensional, style. 

Rather than change the fb/s id simply look to change the bbm to a cm-d (or drop cms to dms because i prefer dm-s as its not coded to close down much more)... And then id have the dlp on support as well, rather than defens, so during transition they make themselves available for a pass from the ifs and am. 

Work ball into box and retain possession should give time for the fbs to get beyond the ifs... So making sure those players can retain the ball with composure, balance would be key. 

[Rashidi]

8 hours ago, westy8chimp said:

The theme seems to be if(s) to come inside leaving space for attacking fbs to cross to attacking striker and a late arriving am... I think success could be had with thar, albeit one dimensional, style. 

Rather than change the fb/s id simply look to change the bbm to a cm-d (or drop cms to dms because i prefer dm-s as its not coded to close down much more)... And then id have the dlp on support as well, rather than defens, so during transition they make themselves available for a pass from the ifs and am. 

Work ball into box and retain possession should give time for the fbs to get beyond the ifs... So making sure those players can retain the ball with composure, balance would be key. 

You could make those changes but it won’t change the one dimensionality of the system. In order for him to win he has to camp and control, if he fails, it’s most likely going to happen during the midfield consolidation phase.

This will make it very risky if he doesn’t have the quality of players to pull it off. What you suggest can work, reality instead tells me that most managers over-estimate what their players can do.

[Experienced Defender]

4 hours ago, Rashidi said:

In order for him to win he has to camp and control, if he fails, it’s most likely going to happen during the midfield consolidation phase.

Spot on 

[oblongata21]

On 27/09/2018 at 13:59, Rashidi said:

You could make those changes but it won’t change the one dimensionality of the system. In order for him to win he has to camp and control, if he fails, it’s most likely going to happen during the midfield consolidation phase.

This will make it very risky if he doesn’t have the quality of players to pull it off. What you suggest can work, reality instead tells me that most managers over-estimate what their players can do.

I think you absolutely nailed it. Thats exactly where the breakdown seems to occur.

Originally I thought I had the quality to be able to pull it off, but seeing as I took over Newcastle after they dropped into the championship, the quality of players they have isnt as good as what it could be. Basically I am not able to attract large numbers of quality players, so my team consists of a few decent young players, with good potential and some pretty average mature age players. I also somehow signed Zlatan on a one year deal, and he almost single handedly got me promoted again through sheer quality.

Im currently searching for some better quality midfielders particularly playmakers, and a DLF, and fullbacks that arent as attacking/or can play more defensive. Basically anything that will give me better control of the ball. Not sure about changing formation yet though

 

[Rashidi]

3 hours ago, oblongata21 said:

Im currently searching for some better quality midfielders particularly playmakers, and a DLF, and fullbacks that arent as attacking/or can play more defensive. Basically anything that will give me better control of the ball. Not sure about changing formation yet though

You nailed it, the role and duty selection suggest that this is one system that can work, even though it demands so much in attributes like OTB, first touch and decisions. So if you deal with the player selection challenges then that could be one approach to take without changing the tactic.

[RodentofDoom]

When I use a 4231 and I want to protect a lead

It's not the "mentality" & shape options I head for first.

 

Player positions, roles & duties are the first things I tweak

I'll move the AMC back to either the CM or DMC spot, which depends on if im using a 2 DMC or 2 CM midfield, making it a more traditional 451.

Attack duties get reduced to just 1 or 2 (a wide player and a CM or DMC)

Defend duties get increased from 3 to 4-5 (normally the FB/WB roles)

Some roles will need to be changed to support the duty changes (such as AFa to DLFs/DFs)

 

Reducing the space between your D-Line and goalie is another option, this will forgo offside traps and a pressing style though.

after all the above If i still need to strengthen the backline, then i'll lower the "risk" setting, dropping it down 1 level, and then another again later.