Idea: mentoring people with regards to tactics

[Bunkerossian]

The tactics subforum is always full of people having trouble with tactics. As the franchise is complex, how do people rate the idea of there being a system where an experienced, successful player of the series would mentor those younger and less successful? Even the guides posted in the stickied topic might not be enough for some of us.

hoping for input from @herne79, @Rashidi, @Cleon, @HUNT3R and other knowledgeable players.

[Atarin]

@Rashidi already does this. Go to his youtube channel and there are links to his Patreon. Its not cheap but he really knows what he's talking about and his book is very, very good.

[summatsupeer]

I doubt there's enough potential mentors with the time to do 1on1 help plus post in topics or write guides or make videos plus play their own games etc.

Whilst I post a bit but I don't write guides or make videos, you'd be surprised how many people PM me for help, which I don't understand.  One was asking for help in FM12 or something .  Someone more knowledgeable or able to explain there train of thought better could help if they posted a topic rather than limiting it to one person.  I think its fine how it is now, spend your own time reading existing guides or watching videos and if things don't click, post a topic and those with the time and knowledge to help can respond.

[Bunkerossian]

What I meant is something like going through the analysis of games with the tutee, pointing out things he/she might've not understood or seen. This would be a step up necessary for those that had failed even after applying basic advice such as not putting too many TI-s and PI-s.

[Atarin]

These are people with families and day jobs. Its asking a lot. They already provide tons of good advice. They can't play the game for us or hold our hands as we learn. Sucks but its true. If you genuinely want 1 to 1 coaching I'd suggest checking out @Rashidi's Patreon, he has a number of packages available. I've never tried any of his coaching courses but, as I said, his book is well worth a look.

[herne79]

It's a nice idea and a good sentiment.  The problem is the execution.

You gave me a poke - personally speaking I simply don't have the time.  Day job, home life and anything we do here on the forum is purely voluntary.  It's already impossible to reply to all topics and PMs asking for help (you'd be amazed how many PMs I get), so there's only so much I can get involved in.

If anyone is prepared to get involved with something like this then props to them, for me it simply isn't possible.

[Bunkerossian]

2 minutes ago, herne79 said:

It's a nice idea and a good sentiment.  The problem is the execution.

You gave me a poke - personally speaking I simply don't have the time.  Day job, home life and anything we do here on the forum is purely voluntary.  It's already impossible to reply to all topics and PMs asking for help (you'd be amazed how many PMs I get), so there's only so much I can get involved in.

If anyone is prepared to get involved with something like this then props to them, for me it simply isn't possible.

Oh, well. I just see a whole bunch of people seemingly lost in this game. Myself included. It's a question of: what to do when applying simple tips doesn't yield any success?

[Draktor]

@Bunkerossian Just to add my 2c, I was in the same boat as you 1 year ago and got mentored off @Rashidi as others have mentioned and it works, went from not being able to get out of the Belgium 3rd Division to taking teams from the conference to the premier league in consecutive seasons, so if you can't afford the mentoring I can at least give you some advice.

Basically tactics boil down to 3 things:

1. Creating a tactic (not that hard overall)
2. Selecting the right players with the right attributes for position (from experience harder than 1)
3. Adapting to changes in game

So the advice I would give is whenever you take a look at one of @Rashidi's is to compartmentalise the information into one of these 3 sections. Maybe have a notebook for defined sections of this and if you watch his videos then take notes in their relevant section. At intervals go back and re-read what you wrote in various sections. The hardest to grasp without coaching would probably be 3. adapting to changes IMO as that is very situational and requires the most abstract thinking, but it definitely is possible.

 

[alanschu14]

The basic articles/blogs for how to play (I strongly recommend Lines and Diamonds) worked as a baseline.  But I have also found @Rashidi's Bust the Net youtube channel very helpful for supplementing my understanding of the game as well.

[Bunkerossian]

What is one to do if he has read all those guides previously, watched Rashidi's videos, but nothing has improved, results-wise?

[jc577]

25 minutes ago, Bunkerossian said:

What is one to do if he has read all those guides previously, watched Rashidi's videos, but nothing has improved, results-wise?

Do you watch games back and see where things went wrong? If not then this is definitely something to do, although spotting the difference between an actual tactical issue and one caused by poor morale is somewhat difficult. I guess that's why we're encouraged to keep it simple tactically so it's easier to spot things as you know how it's meant to play out. 

[Bunkerossian]

2 minutes ago, jc577 said:

Do you watch games back and see where things went wrong? If not then this is definitely something to do, although spotting the difference between an actual tactical issue and one caused by poor morale is somewhat difficult. I guess that's why we're encouraged to keep it simple tactically so it's easier to spot things as you know how it's meant to play out. 

I am trying to spot things, yes. But I am failing. This thread was a way to maybe spur on the creation of a system that could help people when information from the guides is not enough.

[Atarin]

What you need is to fully understand the basics. The truth is that you can create a winning tactic with just Mentality, Shape, Roles and Duties...if you know what they do. You don't need to use TIs, PIs or OIs, although they can add a lot of customisation and flavour they are not mandatory. The key is to learn M, S, R & D. If you can create a functioning tactic using those then you are prepared to take on the game on your own terms. You don't need (and can't expect) private tuition. There are books out there that people have suggested @Rashidi has one and there is the incredibly useful (and very simple) Lines and Diamonds. Both will give you a real foundation in the game.

The trouble is that we all start out wanting to learn how to create epic, advanced systems which I compare to picking up a guitar and wanting to immediately play like a rock god lead guitarist. Do you know your Strings? Do you know your Notes? Do you know your Modes? Do you know your chords? Have you ever held a pick before? Do you know how to strum? Or Pick? Do you know how to efficiently finger a chord? Move between chords? Move between strings? Dampen?

If the answer is no then you're not ready to play lead guitar. You need to learn the fundamentals. Practice. Play rhythm guitar for a while. Try different techniques, try different styles. Copy simple pieces by other people and try and dissect how they work.

I'm labouring the point I know and I'm talking to myself as much as to you because you're not the only one who gets frustrated and impatient.

Stick with it.

[Bunkerossian]

I'll get slated for this comment, but learning what Mentality, Shape, Role and Duty settings do isn't fixing the issue. I simply do not know when to use which setting. No guide tells me this. All the guides have done is made me afraid to select any instruction except GK distribution and crossing. I'm left with a paralysis of decision. The guides don't help, so what is the next step to try and fix the problem, if there is any? What I was hoping to see is a system that helps with practical implementation of theory in the guides.

[Atarin]

I'd highly recommend you go back and read Lines and Diamonds again, particularly Chapter 4. From this chapter you will begin to understand the meaning of System and Style in relation to the tools you have at your disposal (the tactics creator).

If you understand M, S, R & D then you should be able to formulate a System and Style that you think would be advantageous to employ. The table on page 55 spells it out. If you play on Counter for example your Build Up will be in the form of cautiously Waiting For Openings. Your Defensive Passing Style will be More Direct. Your Attacking Passing Style will be Shorter. Your team's licence to roam will be a fraction less than average. Your Tempo will be Cautious and Considered and your Width will be More Compact.

If, having read this, you think Counter will be the best way to go then you start to think about Shape and Roles and Duties. You think to yourself what would be the best defensive formation to counter with? Well you want men behind the ball, right? So not top heavy then. How many players do you want to throw forward when you do Counter? That's a personal choice. But let's say its just three then that would suggest to me that a more Structured Shape would suit. Now you've got a Balanced or Bottom Heavy formation, a Counter Mentality, a Structured Shape, what's next? Player Duties. Why? Because we know we're sending 3 players forward on Counters, right? So who will be the players most likely to get in behind the opposition? Well there we go we might stick our most advanced player on Support because we don't want him going to early and getting isolated. We might set our next nearest two on Attack so they get up nice and quickly as the ball transitions. Everyone else gets divided into Support and Defend depending on whether they shoot straight back into their defensive position when we lose the ball or whether they delay the opposition, close down, block passing lanes.etc and those are our Support Duties.

What's left? Roles. From here we're just telling each player what style to play in when they perform their job of Defend, Support or Attack. Do they stand off, charge in, attack space, create space? etc.

 The reason that is all important is because once you've done all of that you will have a pretty good idea what is SUPPOSED to happen. When or if it doesn't mid game you will know. Pages 49 and 50 clearly give guidance on problems that you might see and what might be causing it. From there you can tweak and imho for the most part the most likely error will have been made in Role or Duty. If you've inefficiently distributed Duties or not helped your players by giving them a badly chosen Role then that can really undermine a tactic. A realistic Mentality is easy to choose based on the table on page  55. A shape is relatively easy as well, how many players improvise and break with the team Mentality (reference the table on page 62).

The key is knowing why you chose the instructions that you did, then having a clear idea from that what you should see when the match starts, if you don't see what you want to see then you've either chosen the wrong Mentality (maybe you underestimated your opponent), maybe you chose the wrong shape (maybe not enough players are involved in the attacking transition or not enough players are involved in the defensive transition) or maybe you chose Duties unwisely (maybe not enough of your Attack Duties are in areas where they can have an impact - or maybe one of your Attack Duties is positioning where as they get forward they leave a very exploitable hole) or maybe its poorly chosen Roles (maybe you've instructed a player to act as a space exploiter in an area where there is no space - or you've got a player trying to win the ball in an area where there opposition are not trying to build up). Lastly look at your formation. Are you giving your side the best chance of implementing your game plan? Are you trying to defend deep with a top heavy formation? Are you trying to camp in an opponents half with a bottom heavy formation? etc

To sum up. Understand the basic. Know why you have chosen what you have chosen. If what you're seeing us unwanted look again at what you chose. Which of the components might be out of whack? It will be one of them. The opposition can only exploit what you give them no matter how good they are.

The last consideration and perhaps most important of all is always, always, always make sure your players can actually do what you're asking them to do. If you put a player at Left Back who can't tackle, can't concentrate, has terrible positioning, can't jump, has no acceleration and no bravery then its not your system, its the fact that you've got a no-hoper at left back and no tactic in the world is going to fix that. Don't ask them to do things that they can't do. If you've got money bring someone else in who can do the job that you want. If you don't have any money then change what you're asking them to do so that they can do it and then look on at the knock on effect that that has on the rest of your side.

A long post, I know, but you are in a similar place to where I often find myself. There's no conspiracy here, the people who are good at this game aren't good because they have some secret knowledge that we don't have access to. They just have a rock solid understanding of the basics.

[Bunkerossian]

The Counter mentality is one I absolutely do not understand- and this is something that complicates choices with regards to mentality. Descriptions in guides say it is based on a slow build-up when on the ball. This is not a counterattacking system at all in reality. Apparently, the mentality only refers to the part where the ball is stolen. Duties are also a problem to understand- in terms of how they work together in one part of the pitch. There are no hard and fast rules to be applied, and solutions do not make sense. For example: it turns out that an attacking FB will harm a tactic that relies on crossing to a target man. I've been suggested a few weeks before to change the duty to Support. It helped, but I have no clue why. I ultimately failed due to defensive problems.

[Atarin]

That's because you're jumping ahead. What does a Fullback on Attack do? overlap. What does that do? limit the attacking intent of the player ahead of him. It also means a slightly slower build up because the ball must get out to the wide midfielder, he has to hold onto the ball, wait for the fullback to get passed him and then the fullback has to get into space, get the ball under control all before he has tried a cross. What is a Target Man? A Target Man is a ball magnet. He is designed to be hit early. Can you see how a FB(a) wouldn't suit a Target Man in a lot of systems? You keep saying that you know the basics but I don't think that you do. What I just described to you is something you can understand just from the descriptions of the roles on the game. Just imagine how much time you're giving the opposition to regain its defensive shape. The Target Man Role is largely wasted in any system that doesn't employ fairly direct passing. His whole raison d'etre is acting as a static pivot for direct balls and crosses. I don't associate overlapping fullbacks with particularly direct football (not least because it takes a minimum two passes just to get the ball to him - e.g -goalkeeper to wide midfielder, wide midfielder to overlapping fullback).

[Bunkerossian]

4 minutes ago, Atarin said:

That's because you're jumping ahead. What does a Fullback on Attack do? overlap. What does that do? limit the attacking intent of the player ahead of him. It also means a slightly slower build up because the ball must get out to the wide midfielder, he has to hold onto the ball, wait for the fullback to get passed him and then the fullback has to get into space, get the ball under control all before he has tried a cross. What is a Target Man? A Target Man is a ball magnet. He is designed to be hit early. Can you see how a FB(a) wouldn't suit a Target Man in a lot of systems? You keep saying that you know the basics but I don't think that you do. What I just described to you is something you can understand just from the descriptions of the roles on the game. Just imagine how much time you're giving the opposition to regain its defensive shape. The Target Man Role is largely wasted in any system that doesn't employ fairly direct passing. His whole raison d'etre is acting as a static pivot for direct balls and crosses. I don't associate overlapping fullbacks with particularly direct football (not least because it takes a minimum two passes just to get the ball to him - e.g -goalkeeper to wide midfielder, wide midfielder to overlapping fullback).

The FB is supposed to be going forward and crossing to him. It makes sense to me. Regarding overlapping- I specifically didn't tick that instruction. If the game does it without me instructing it to do so, then it's not at all simple to understand.

[HUNT3R]

28 minutes ago, Bunkerossian said:

The Counter mentality is one I absolutely do not understand- and this is something that complicates choices with regards to mentality. Descriptions in guides say it is based on a slow build-up when on the ball. This is not a counterattacking system at all in reality. 

This is all completely wrong? You say you read guides, but surely one of them would have been the Art of Counterattacking by Cleon?

IT IS SLOW. That's the entire point of the Mentality. Play safe. Low-ish tempo and closing down. Deep-ish line. Fairly narrow. Slightly direct at the back and slightly short in front. And did I mention safe? So if you SAFELY work the ball forward and a counter presents itself, the ME flips a switch and it's high tempo, aggressively breaking forward  -  an actual counter attack.

All of this very basic stuff that's documented in Cleon's guide.

[herne79]

35 minutes ago, Bunkerossian said:

The Counter mentality is one I absolutely do not understand- and this is something that complicates choices with regards to mentality. Descriptions in guides say it is based on a slow build-up when on the ball. This is not a counterattacking system at all in reality. Apparently, the mentality only refers to the part where the ball is stolen. Duties are also a problem to understand- in terms of how they work together in one part of the pitch. There are no hard and fast rules to be applied, and solutions do not make sense. For example: it turns out that an attacking FB will harm a tactic that relies on crossing to a target man. I've been suggested a few weeks before to change the duty to Support. It helped, but I have no clue why. I ultimately failed due to defensive problems.

imo the title "Counter mentality" needs changing.  It's misleading.  You don't suddenly become a counter attacking god just by selecting this mentality.

Mentality - any Mentality - is about nothing more than risk.  There used to be a phrase around here called the "mentality ladder" and it's very apt.  The Contain mentality sets your team up to play in a very low risk manner.  Overload is the opposite - it's very high risk.  Every mentality in between is just a step up (or down) on this "mentality ladder".

So what's "risk"?  Look at how the Team Instructions get set every time you select a mentality.  Just open up the TI screen in game and watch how they change as you change mentality.  Pay particular attention to such areas as Tempo, Closing Down, Passing, Defensive Line.

Counter Attacking is something different - it's something coded into the Match Engine.  A counter attack will start - regardless of mentality - when certain conditions are met.  (Those conditions being when the opposition has fewer than a certain number of players between their goal and their ball carrier, and they lose the ball).

The Counter Mentality does have something coded under the hood to relax those conditions a little, but then so do the Defensive and Overload mentalities.

Remember - counter attacking football is about sitting deep, letting the opposition come onto you before (hopefully) breaking with a swift counter attack.  Low risk mentalities can help with that as your team will set up in a low risk manner, part of which (if you watched how the TIs change as mentioned above) tells your team to sit deep. 

But your formation is just as important (perhaps even more so) - you're never going to sit deep with enough players behind the ball to encourage the opposition to overcommit men forward if you use a top heavy formation such as the 4231.

And one final thought - even if you have set up perfectly for counter attacking, counter attacks will still only be the exception not the rule.  Most of your football played won't be counter attacks, simply because the opposition won't always overcommit players forward.  So, most of the time your team will play a slow, patient, low risk type of football because that's what the TIs instruct them to do.  It's only when a counter attack is triggered that suddenly your team becomes ultra high tempo / attack minded and all hell breaks loose.  But you don't have to tell your team to do that, the ME does it for you.

[HUNT3R]

36 minutes ago, Bunkerossian said:

For example: it turns out that an attacking FB will harm a tactic that relies on crossing to a target man. I've been suggested a few weeks before to change the duty to Support. It helped, but I have no clue why. I ultimately failed due to defensive problems.

This doesn't make sense. Where was this said to you? An attacking fullback CAN work with a Target Man. It's just obvious. It maybe just didn't work in whatever you created.

 

And if you don't understand something.... ask? Or look for the answer? You don't need a mentor to ask the entire sub-forum.

[Atarin]

9 minutes ago, Bunkerossian said:

The FB is supposed to be going forward and crossing to him. It makes sense to me. Regarding overlapping- I specifically didn't tick that instruction. If the game does it without me instructing it to do so, then it's not at all simple to understand.

Hover over the description in the tactics creator for a FB(a). It literally says "With an Attack duty the Full Back supplements his defensive responsibilities by overlapping the midfield and providing first time crosses into the area."

It doesn't have to selected in the TIs because its hard coded into the player Role for FB(a).

I keep saying it, you have to learn the basics.

[Bunkerossian]

9 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

This is all completely wrong? You say you read guides, but surely one of them would have been the Art of Counterattacking by Cleon?

IT IS SLOW. That's the entire point of the Mentality. Play safe. Low-ish tempo and closing down. Deep-ish line. Fairly narrow. Slightly direct at the back and slightly short in front. And did I mention safe? So if you SAFELY work the ball forward and a counter presents itself, the ME flips a switch and it's high tempo, aggressively breaking forward  -  an actual counter attack.

All of this very basic stuff that's documented in Cleon's guide.

When I think of counterattacking, I think of this: men behind the ball, absorbing pressure without possession, and then once the ball is taken, several players initiate the counter, and fast. Low tempo makes zero sense to me here. Safety in bringing the ball forward is contrary to the idea of countering. When you get a chance, you go for it, all in. Because you might not get many. I'm sure the guide says what you've quoted, but I'm not sure what kind of style that is.

[HUNT3R]

Just now, Bunkerossian said:

When I think of counterattacking, I think of this: men behind the ball, absorbing pressure without possession, and then once the ball is taken, several players initiate the counter, and fast. Low tempo makes zero sense to me here. Safety in bringing the ball forward is contrary to the idea of countering. When you get a chance, you go for it, all in. Because you might not get many. I'm sure the guide says what you've quoted, but I'm not sure what kind of style that is.

You're missing the point though. It's supposed to play safe and also slow when a counter is not on. That's the important bit. If it's on, it's not safe and slow.

 

If you just want balls to the wall 100mph direct and attacking football, that's completely different. That's exactly what it is - direct and attacking every time, whether there's a counter or not. If they park all 11 players + subs behind the ball, screw it, we're direct and attacking, taking risks. Absolutely not what counter attacking is.

[Atarin]

Just now, Bunkerossian said:

When I think of counterattacking, I think of this: men behind the ball, absorbing pressure without possession, and then once the ball is taken, several players initiate the counter, and fast. Low tempo makes zero sense to me here. Safety in bringing the ball forward is contrary to the idea of countering. When you get a chance, you go for it, all in. Because you might not get many. I'm sure the guide says what you've quoted, but I'm not sure what kind of style that is.

You can't counter with every attack though. Think of a real life counter-attacking side. Do they only ever attack when the opposition has lost the ball? What about when they have a goal kick? Clearly there needs to be a more subtle approach at those times. A Counter/Defend Mentality will give you a good base to launch counter attacks from but it can't have you countering on your opponent all the time. The opposition won't be that generous. What your team will do fro the rest of the time is to play slow and patient build up. If you want to sit deep and hammer teams on the break then maybe an Attack Mentality is the way to go combined with a much deeper line but its very risky, hence Mentality being a barometer of Risk.

[Bunkerossian]

I guess we also see the notion of safety differently. For me, safe means booting the ball far, far away from one's goal. Considering that often counterattacking teams lack the skill to hold on to the ball for long, then a slow build-up isn't even possible. I also thought Control was basically possession football, but through reading threads of those who ran into problems while using it, I realized it is quite risky, and not about slow build-up. A game where selectable options don't do what it says on the tin is not easy.

[Atarin]

We're getting to the root of the problem @Bunkerossian people keep telling you to forget what you think you know and learn the basics and you keep telling people that you know the basics when its clear that you don't know the basics. You need to forget what you think you know about the game because it sounds like its not accurate and learn about how the game actually works.

What you're describing is a style of defending. I would list that under player Roles. If you want your defenders to just clear the ball up field then choose DCBs and DFBs (that is literally their hard coded instructions). From there you could build out. I wouldn't recommend it but you are totally free to play the game any way that you want.

[Bunkerossian]

7 minutes ago, Atarin said:

We're getting to the root of the problem @Bunkerossian people keep telling you to forget what you think you know and learn the basics and you keep telling people that you know the basics when its clear that you don't know the basics. You need to forget what you think you know about the game because it sounds like its not accurate and learn about how the game actually works.

What you're describing is a style of defending. I would list that under player Roles. If you want your defenders to just clear the ball up field then choose DCBs and DFBs (that is literally their hard coded instructions). From there you could build out. I wouldn't recommend it but you are totally free to play the game any way that you want.

What are basics even? I know I can't put 5 attack duties in the team, and that a high line exposes me to fast strikers. Are these basics or more advanced things?  I have no idea what to do with certain mentalities that work completely different from what their name says, or how to combine roles and duties. There's no simple statement in any of the guides: if you play role X, do not mix with role Y. And sometimes, believe you me, it is not easy to rule a pairing out. apparently, the game hates it if you put a DLP-Su and a BWM-D together. I've no clue why.

[HUNT3R]

Just now, Bunkerossian said:

 the game hates it if you put a DLP-Su and a BWM-D together. I've no clue why.

You can read threads, because this comes up a lot - the BWM as your "holder" who is supposed to protect the defence, is quite likely going to leave huge gaps in front of that defence that he should protect, because he's closing down everyone.

You can also easily see this happening in a match. When he does leave that gap, look what happens. See someone else exploiting that space, which draws everyone out of position.

Again, you want a mentor, but you can easily see this in a match and that info is in a lot of places in this very sub-forum.

[Atarin]

1 minute ago, Bunkerossian said:

What are basics even? I know I can't put 5 attack duties in the team, and that a high line exposes me to fast strikers. Are these basics or more advanced things?  I have no idea what to do with certain mentalities that work completely different from what their name says, or how to combine roles and duties. There's no simple statement: if you play role X, do not mix with role Y. And sometimes, believe you me, it is not easy to rule a pairing out. apparently, the game hates it if you put a DLP-Su and a BWM-D together. I've no clue why.

Basics:

1: Mentality - What is it? How does it work? How to use it to get the kind of set up that you want.

2: Shape - What is it? How does it work? How to use it to get the kind of set up that you want.

3: Player Duties - What are they? How do they work? How to use them to get the kind of set up that I want.

4: Player Roles - What are they? How do they work? How to use them to get the kind of set up that I want.

5: Formation - What is it? How does it work? How to use it to get the kind of set up that you want.

6: Player Attributes - What are they? How do they work? How to use them to get the kind of set up that I want.

Advanced:

1: TIs - What are they? How do they work? How to use them to get the kind of set up that I want.

2: PIs - What are they? How do they work? How to use them to get the kind of set up that I want.

3: OIs - What are they? How do they work? How to use them to get the kind of set up that I want.

4: Role Combinations, overloading one side of the pitch.etc

[HUNT3R]

I must say, around FM14, I still had issues understanding what exactly Duties were. It held me back a bit. Not sure what made me understand, but had I just asked, it would have saved me a lot of pain.

[Bunkerossian]

12 minutes ago, Atarin said:

Basics:

1: Mentality - What is it? How does it work? How to use it to get the kind of set up that you want.

2: Shape - What is it? How does it work? How to use it to get the kind of set up that you want.

3: Player Duties - What are they? How do they work? How to use them to get the kind of set up that I want.

4: Player Roles - What are they? How do they work? How to use them to get the kind of set up that I want.

5: Formation - What is it? How does it work? How to use it to get the kind of set up that you want.

6: Player Attributes - What are they? How do they work? How to use them to get the kind of set up that I want.

Advanced:

1: TIs - What are they? How do they work? How to use them to get the kind of set up that I want.

2: PIs - What are they? How do they work? How to use them to get the kind of set up that I want.

3: OIs - What are they? How do they work? How to use them to get the kind of set up that I want.

4: Role Combinations, overloading one side of the pitch.etc

I totally fail in the bolded part for all the listed categories. I know, for example, that Structured team shape increases the separation between players on different duties. But the usefulness of this in practical situations? I have no idea. Same goes with things like the Counter mentality or the Roamong Playmaker. Why is there a RPM and a separate Regista role?

[Ji-Sung Park]

@Bunkerossian, I sympathize with you and your idea is possibly a very good one. 

I think you may be overthinking this a bit, though. I have found that the greatest formations I have created have had very simple (or neutral for lack of a better word) roles. Nothing fancy, just let the play come from the player type and go from there. This of course means you have to know your players (PPMs+).

I believe it was Herne who had a great 4-4-2 thread a while back (FM16 maybe), where he took a piece of paper and dotted down a tactic with 11 players. Then he drew arrows on how he saw the players would behave and through a lot of trials he found the suited style. 

[Atarin]

13 minutes ago, Bunkerossian said:

I totally fail in the bolded part for all the listed categories. I know, for example, that Structured team shape increases the separation between players on different duties. But the usefulness of this in practical situations? I have no idea. Same goes with things like the Counter mentality or the Roamong Playmaker. Why is there a RPM and a separate Regista role?

I think, like many of us do at the start, you have unreasonable expectations. Beginners always want a rock solid system that cuts teams to ribbons but the truth is that that is nigh on impossible, all tactics are compromises between solidity and cutting edge. For every player attacking that is one less player defending and visa versa. Its all about striking a balance. Mentality is Risk, when Risk is translated into football it encompasses things like width, defensive line, passing, closing down.etc So its no surprise that if you want less risk then you get narrow width, deep depth and low risk passing. If you are willing to take more risks that's fine but in football terms that means wider width, higher defensive line, more closing down.etc (not always and forever - i'm generalising to make a point).

If you want to hit the ball forward at every opportunity then you have a couple of options. (1) a base mentality that will do that for you, along with all of its associated instructions (Attack and Overload come to mind) or (2) you can choose a different mentality and adjust the passing directness to maximum. Both come with their own set of problems. The first opens you up to counter attacks & the second could mean you rarely complete a pass (because its travelling a long way and so few of your players are up there fighting for it).

Its all about compromise.

I can't reiterate enough, you absolutely need to read the books suggested. All these things are covered and you clearly need to understand these things.

[jc577]

1 hour ago, HUNT3R said:

You're missing the point though. It's supposed to play safe and also slow when a counter is not on. That's the important bit. If it's on, it's not safe and slow.

 

If you just want balls to the wall 100mph direct and attacking football, that's completely different. That's exactly what it is - direct and attacking every time, whether there's a counter or not. If they park all 11 players + subs behind the ball, screw it, we're direct and attacking, taking risks. Absolutely not what counter attacking is.

I have to disagree on this, imo counter-attacking teams look to hit teams at every available opportunity. In 15/16 when Leicester won the league, for the early part of the season at least, they looked to hit teams whenever they came at them. To me what constitutes counter-attacking football is sitting deep & absorbing pressure - those are the fundamentals. I understand that the counter mentality triggers something under the hood the maxes out tempo, passing directness etc which is all well and good, and some may prefer this way of playing counter-attacking football but this isn't how I see it.

[HUNT3R]

1 minute ago, jc577 said:

I have to disagree on this, imo counter-attacking teams look to hit teams at every available opportunity. 

You can disagree, but you're missing the point. You can totally do what you describe, but what you're describing is something different, as I said.

[Bunkerossian]

9 minutes ago, Atarin said:

I think, like many of us do at the start, you have unreasonable expectations. Beginners always want a rock solid system that cuts teams to ribbons but the truth is that that is nigh on impossible, all tactics are compromises between solidity and cutting edge. For every player attacking that is one less player defending and visa versa. Its all about striking a balance. Mentality is Risk, when Risk is translated into football it encompasses things like width, defensive line, passing, closing down.etc So its no surprise that if you want less risk then you get narrow width, deep depth and low risk passing. If you are willing to take more risks that's fine but in football terms that means wider width, higher defensive line, more closing down.etc (not always and forever - i'm generalising to make a point).

If you want to hit the ball forward at every opportunity then you have a couple of options. (1) a base mentality that will do that for you, along with all of its associated instructions (Attack and Overload come to mind) or (2) you can choose a different mentality and adjust the passing directness to maximum. Both come with their own set of problems. The first opens you up to counter attacks & the second could mean you rarely complete a pass (because its travelling a long way and so few of your players are up there fighting for it).

Its all about compromise.

I can't reiterate enough, you absolutely need to read the books suggested. All these things are covered and you clearly need to understand these things.

Trust me, my expectations were lower and lower each time I tried a save. I hoped for 1 win in 5 competitive games with HSV. Nope- failed. The result of my inability to decide what settings to use, and how to turn theory in practice,is the following: I'm too afraid to touch 90% of things in the tactic creator.

[jc577]

Just now, HUNT3R said:

You can disagree, but you're missing the point. You can totally do what you describe, but what you're describing is something different, as I said.

I don't feel as if I am missing the point. You're suggesting that counter-attacking football revolves around low risk which translates to a low tempo, narrow width, low closing down etc and I agree with elements of that. However, there is a potential to hit teams whenever they come at you and waiting for the 'trigger' isn't good enough imo - sometimes it has to be forced and whilst it may not result in a goal, it can certainly get you up the pitch.

[HUNT3R]

Just now, jc577 said:

I don't feel as if I am missing the point. You're suggesting that counter-attacking football revolves around low risk which translates to a low tempo, narrow width, low closing down etc and I agree with elements of that. However, there is a potential to hit teams whenever they come at you and waiting for the 'trigger' isn't good enough imo - sometimes it has to be forced and whilst it may not result in a goal, it can certainly get you up the pitch.

You are missing the point if this is what you post though. The bolded part implies risk taking. Aggressiveness. That's not a safe Counter Mentality.

[jc577]

Just now, HUNT3R said:

You are missing the point if this is what you post though. The bolded part implies risk taking. Aggressiveness. That's not a safe Counter Mentality.

I do realise that, but playing on the counter is inatelty risky anyway? Sitting right in front of your 18-yard box is risky; letting the opposition have the ball is risky - it can easily back fire. What i'm saying is that the way I view counter-attacking football and how we are told to replicate that in game are different, that's all.

[HUNT3R]

Just now, jc577 said:

Sitting right in front of your 18-yard box is risky; letting the opposition have the ball is risky - it can easily back fire.

You're not just sitting in front of your 18 yard box though, so where are you getting that from? I posted just higher up that the back players have fairly direct passing. The intention is to get it out of the pressure zone.

[jc577]

2 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

You're not just sitting in front of your 18 yard box though, so where are you getting that from? I posted just higher up that the back players have fairly direct passing. The intention is to get it out of the pressure zone.

If you're defending in a low block (which you should be if you're playing on the counter) chances are you're sitting right in front of your 18 yard box, or maybe 10 yards higher up the pitch. I said earlier that I agree with certain elements of how to play on the counter, just not all.

[HUNT3R]

Just now, jc577 said:

If you're defending in a low block (which you should be if you're playing on the counter) chances are you're sitting right in front of your 18 yard box, or maybe 10 yards higher up the pitch. I said earlier that I agree with certain elements of how to play on the counter, just not all.

You're not sitting with all 11 players there. Counter attacking teams, if set up properly, have players who they can pass to, to relieve that pressure. For a lot of teams, that's a strong striker that they can play it to, to hold up the ball and get the rest of the team up field.

[jc577]

14 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

You're not sitting with all 11 players there. Counter attacking teams, if set up properly, have players who they can pass to, to relieve that pressure. For a lot of teams, that's a strong striker that they can play it to, to hold up the ball and get the rest of the team up field.

I feel like this is just descending into an entirely different conversation now  Long story short is that when setting up a counter attacking system I'd want my team to attempt a counter every time the ball is won.

[HUNT3R]

Just now, jc577 said:

I feel like this is just descending into an entirely different conversation now  Long story short is that when setting up a counter attacking system I'd want my team to attempt a counter every time the ball is won.

And there's a way to do it. 

[jc577]

9 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

And there's a way to do it. 

I know there is but earlier on you stated this wasn't counter-attacking football but rather direct, attacking football? 

[HUNT3R]

1 minute ago, jc577 said:

I know there is but earlier on you stated this wasn't counter-attacking football but rather direct, attacking football? 

No thanks. I'm out of the pointlessness. If a counter attack isn't on but you actually still want to attack every time, you can do it. What you want to label it, is up to you. Counter will let you counter when it's on. If you don't want that and you want to be direct and high tempo, set up to be direct and high tempo all the time, regardless of what the other team does.

[jc577]

1 minute ago, HUNT3R said:

No thanks. I'm out of the pointlessness. If a counter attack isn't on but you actually still want to attack every time, you can do it. What you want to label it, is up to you. Counter will let you counter when it's on. If you don't want that, set up to be direct all the time.

Alright mate not trying to rile you up, thought it was just a debate. 

[Bunkerossian]

Maybe my issues stem from the complexity of football itself? People disagreeing on what counterattacking really is. In any case, the game has given me a phobia of changing settings.

[Atarin]

I think the problem being had here is the difference between a Counter strategy and a Counter-Attack. A Counter-Attack is any rapid transition upon the turnover of possession. A Counter-System is a system, typically, viewed as being cautious and solid which sits backs, soaks up pressure and waits patiently for the opposition to overstretch themselves before launching a Counter-Attack.

You can Counter-Attack without playing a Counter-Strategy. It would be something like basketball, end to end, like playing football in the playground as a kid. They attack-it comes to nothing-we attack.

That is not, generally, what is meant by a Counter system.