M.E. Hardcoded against "Invincibles" & Bit More

[Trent71]

What I hate about FM17 and something I hope you'll look into for FM18, is that you tried so badly to make things "realistic" that you added a key variable to the match engine, which kinda goes something like this: "If human manager goes without a loss for 10-15 games, make there's a loss somewhere in there". So, something like this.

 

I'm not saying "hey, it's not realistic to lose this way". It definitely happens. But what also happens, even though rarely, is a team on a rampant form without losing a game. I once saw a FM17 video of "a lot of years into the future" (I think it was 1000? Couldn't find it now) and Arsenal's unbeaten streak was still standing. I found this one and obviously Manchester United managed to top that, though I dunno how. But whenever you go in such videos, you can really see the tendencies of the game exploited - no one can top a 14-in-a-row clean sheet game, can you? The game is programmed in a way that you will often not go even 5 games without conceding. I guess that's done to avoid "cheating" tactics, but it takes away your ability to really make an amazing team - you can't really tell if your CB is actually to blame when you concede a late equalizer, cause you might think - "well, the game is just programmed this way and it was bound to happen at some point"...

 

The thing that FM17 hates most, though, are strikers. As you can see, Dimitar Berbatov's 5-goal tally still stands. You'd think, 500 years into the future, Man Utd can go 57 games unbeaten, but they don't have a striker that can put 6 past a relegating Liverpool? I've used many tactics through the year. In no way I was able to get a player to score more than 4. And this is not the only way that FM17 hates strikers - due to my inconsistency, I often start new games. I usually re-schuffle the team, do some or a lot of deals, put in a wicked tactic, and see my boys destroy the opponents for the first 7-10 matches, with my top striker having something like 10 goals in 5 games. The beauty of Football Manager is that it cannot comprehend having Messi's and Ronaldo's. I think often not even Messi and Ronaldo are not Messi and Ronaldo on this game, as they fail to live up to the standards of their RL selves. But, I'm getting carried away here - so my striker starts with 5 games and 10 goals. The next 10 games, the game "decides" enough is enough and the striker enters a "dry patch" of 8-10 games to "even out" the numbers and make them more realistic, cause, you know, my tactics were too brilliant to comprehend in the beginning of the season, only to become very poor 10-15 games in

[herne79]

15 minutes ago, Trent71 said:

The game is programmed in a way that you will often not go even 5 games without conceding.

My unlocked "Park the Tank" achievement on Steam (10 games without conceding) says otherwise.

15 minutes ago, Trent71 said:

you tried so badly to make things "realistic" that you added a key variable to the match engine, which kinda goes something like this: "If human manager goes without a loss for 10-15 games, make there's a loss somewhere in there".

As does my unlocked "Invincible!" achievement (play the entire season without losing a league game).

I don't mean this to be flippant, but it really isn't "programmed" in the manner you suggest.  The game does not decide enough is enough.  Is it hard to go on runs like this?  You bet your life it is, but it's supposed to be.  Have a read through this current thread taking particular note of SI's responses.

[Cougar2010]

Just as a follow on from herne's post if you look at the global Steam achievements you can see that:

Parked the Tank has been achieved by 8.1% of users while Invincible has been achieved by 11.5% of users.

That suggests whilst they aren't common achievements they are not really rare either with approx 1 in 10 users achieving them.

[Trent71]

Well, I'd like to get a bit more into the "what do you do" and "how people manage" to achieve that.

 

There's also a certain number of people who don't mind re-loading (not that I'm pointing any fingers), so those Steam achievement numbers may not be totally adequate. There was a certain fella over at TheDugout who even bragged about his Man Utd side, but ended up being busted too many times (he had more re-loads than I've had minutes played on CM/FM in my lifetime...)

[HUNT3R]

2 minutes ago, Trent71 said:

Well, I'd like to get a bit more into the "what do you do" and "how people manage" to achieve that.

 

There's also a certain number of people who don't mind re-loading (not that I'm pointing any fingers), so those Steam achievement numbers may not be totally adequate. There was a certain fella over at TheDugout who even bragged about his Man Utd side, but ended up being busted too many times (he had more re-loads than I've had minutes played on CM/FM in my lifetime...)

If the game really was programmed to prevent it from happening, reloading wouldn't help. Think about it.

[Cougar2010]

21 minutes ago, Trent71 said:

Well, I'd like to get a bit more into the "what do you do" and "how people manage" to achieve that.

 

There's also a certain number of people who don't mind re-loading (not that I'm pointing any fingers), so those Steam achievement numbers may not be totally adequate. There was a certain fella over at TheDugout who even bragged about his Man Utd side, but ended up being busted too many times (he had more re-loads than I've had minutes played on CM/FM in my lifetime...)

Yeah I'm not suggesting that the Steam achievements are perfect but I would hope a decent % of users are completing them fairly.

Personally speaking I've not had an unbeaten season for a long time, possibly ever but given how rare it happens IRL then I think its fine.

 

[craigd84]

45 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

If the game really was programmed to prevent it from happening, reloading wouldn't help. Think about it.

Hunt3r, thats not entirely true on some games, session differences have been noticed on ALOT Premier manager 97/98 for instance.

[HUNT3R]

6 minutes ago, craigd84 said:

Hunt3r, thats not entirely true on some games, session differences have been noticed on ALOT Premier manager 97/98 for instance.

This isn't Premier Manager. There's no hardcoding. There's nothing. Plenty of people have been able to do it and it's not because they got lucky.

[forameuss]

58 minutes ago, Trent71 said:

Well, I'd like to get a bit more into the "what do you do" and "how people manage" to achieve that.

 

There's also a certain number of people who don't mind re-loading (not that I'm pointing any fingers), so those Steam achievement numbers may not be totally adequate. There was a certain fella over at TheDugout who even bragged about his Man Utd side, but ended up being busted too many times (he had more re-loads than I've had minutes played on CM/FM in my lifetime...)

Brilliant.  If the logical achievements of other players don't fit your argument, just accuse them of cheating.

8 minutes ago, craigd84 said:

Hunt3r, thats not entirely true on some games, session differences have been noticed on ALOT Premier manager 97/98 for instance.

You may as well talk about the AI on Minesweeper being against you, it has just as much relevance as quoting a 20 year old game in a different series.

[Svenc]

Good things = management brilliance
good things coming to an end = hardcoded

The truth = too hard to bear....... or too far fetched as impossible to somewhat simulate on a computer surely

The classic Gazhammer/Hammer1000/GarryWHUFC dilemma in a nutshell. Getting that tank achievement isn't all that tough in and on itself. All you would need to do is keeping some men behind the ball, the most noobish/brutish park the tank tactic of all, eventually you'll get there. Of course, some struggle with comprehending such "masterstrokes", even if their aim is 0-0s and 1-0s in endless sequences, similar yelling "hardcoded" as their 4-2-4 wingers on the bombing runs end to end approaches eventually result in a load of action, high turnovers of the ball and a few goals -- not going to further cite further forum names ). It's been made a bit harder to go onto endless streaks, that is outside of ME/AI borderline exploits; and hidden consistency traits, complacency, AI manager tactics /match management, a few overhauls as to how much "control" you really have over players // them never making perfect decisions all the time and a bit more are the root causes of that imo. Naturally conceding to bugs or individual howlers can be a bit rough to take on the chin, so chance will always play some part in everything.

Actually, it's all quite flawed, some areas deeply, worryingly so...  But at its best it's also oft still a bit like football, bloody hell!


 

[Spurs08]

6 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

This isn't Premier Manager. There's no hardcoding. There's nothing. Plenty of people have been able to do it and it's not because they got lucky.

I believe there was a bug a long time ago now - FM08 maybe? - that meant something to do with a club's form wasn't being stored properly in saves, and therefore that re-loading the game could help bring an end to a particularly good or bad run. Obviously wasn't deliberate, was probably overstated and fixed anyway, but it left a lasting impression.

[Trent71]

8 hours ago, Svenc said:

Good things = management brilliance
good things coming to an end = hardcoded

The truth = too hard to bear....... or too far fetched as impossible to somewhat simulate on a computer surely

The classic Gazhammer/Hammer1000/GarryWHUFC dilemma in a nutshell.

Sounds like WestHamGaz from TheDugout has also been been a member of these parts, LoL! Oh, he was brilliant, he always complained about losses in such a manner from the screenshot I linked to in the OP.

 

It seems though the discussion is not exactly going in the direction I was hoping for and people just take the points as "complaining".

 

What about the strikers, though?

[Cougar2010]

11 minutes ago, Trent71 said:

What about the strikers, though?

What about them?

All strikers go through "purple" patches & dry spells.

Its normal, its what happens every single season in every single league IRL.  If it didn't happen you should be complaining.

[Guest]

What about strikers? They hit the target, they miss the target, they have attempts on target saved, blocked or find the back of the net, all seems pretty standard to me.

[Trent71]

Well, my latest example was with Nice, a tycoon save I picked from here.

 

I revamp the whole squad almost, and in the beginning 8-9 games I don the place - even starting with 4:2 win against other millionaires Lille and PSG barely getting a 2:2 draw (first two games). Moussa Dembele has something like 9 goals in 4-5 apps, while Moussa Sissoko has 6 goals in 6 games as AMC.

 

Naturally, when you change 2/3 of the squad, you should have a much slower start of the season, and not demolish other Ligue 1 sides with 5-6 goals. Instead, after the said 8-9 games, players forget how they play with each other and I start losing 0:3 without even creating any chances. It was with the same tactic, I just can't see the logic of it. Adaptability should have greater impact, but I've often noticed that, even though I overhaul squads completely, the team just clicks in the beginning regardless of the fact that everyone just met a week ago.

[Trent71]

2 minutes ago, Barside said:

What about strikers? They hit the target, they miss the target, they have attempts on target saved, blocked or find the back of the net, all seems pretty standard to me.

Thank you, this seems like a very productive post.

 

Reading the analysis I gave in the OP could've helped, but it seems we're all just in the "oh, he's complaining" bandwagon and you just ought to teach me a lesson. Attaboy!

[Cougar2010]

21 minutes ago, Trent71 said:

Well, my latest example was with Nice, a tycoon save I picked from here.

 

I revamp the whole squad almost, and in the beginning 8-9 games I don the place - even starting with 4:2 win against other millionaires Lille and PSG barely getting a 2:2 draw (first two games). Moussa Dembele has something like 9 goals in 4-5 apps, while Moussa Sissoko has 6 goals in 6 games as AMC.

 

Naturally, when you change 2/3 of the squad, you should have a much slower start of the season, and not demolish other Ligue 1 sides with 5-6 goals. Instead, after the said 8-9 games, players forget how they play with each other and I start losing 0:3 without even creating any chances. It was with the same tactic, I just can't see the logic of it. Adaptability should have greater impact, but I've often noticed that, even though I overhaul squads completely, the team just clicks in the beginning regardless of the fact that everyone just met a week ago.

Well reading between the lines it suggests you have a very attacking tactic that performs well against teams that come & attack you leaving space at the back for you to exploit.

This leads to goals from both teams at the start of the season and then a mix of several things happen:

A) Teams recognise your good start and adapt accordingly which means they don't give you as much space and give you more respect.

B) Your players grow in confidence until a point is reached where that tips over into complacency.

C) Having already played bigger teams who are more likely to leave you space you will no doubt have a run of games against lower rep teams towards the bottom of the league who play more defensively.

 

The bottom line is you seem to be expecting to do the same thing all the time and you aren't adapting to the different circumstances for each match.  Like many others before your failure to recognise the potential issues and then failure to deal with them is your biggest problem.

[santy001]

I think the real problem @Trent71 is you've got yourself a narrative in your mind for why you haven't achieved what you wanted, and anything we say now is just going to further entrench that because most people find it hard to admit they're wrong. Or perhaps we're further proof of just how far SI's hardcoding has spread, and we're just the game mobilising idle forum usernames to try and throw you off and cover its tracks. 

There are far too many examples to reel off that show the things happening in your game are well within the kind of realms of expectations. How many strikers are there who have been averaging 2 goals per game in a top European league? You mention strikers, your main complaint seems to be that because in a small snapshot of the season your striker was average 2 a game, the problem is that for the whole season he wasn't averaging 2 a game. 

There's not a huge amount to be gained really is there if you truly believe the game is against you. 

[Guest]

45 minutes ago, Trent71 said:

Thank you, this seems like a very productive post.

 

Reading the analysis I gave in the OP could've helped, but it seems we're all just in the "oh, he's complaining" bandwagon and you just ought to teach me a lesson. Attaboy!

The thread you linked in the OP is a soak save that in all likelihood used the quick match engine & as such is of no relevence in a match engine discussion.

As far as Messi/Ronaldo scoring rates are concerned this is achievable with those two & others, the fact that they tend to not match real life numbers when managed by the AI is another discussion.

[lemeuresnew]

like reading posts like this. i never really notice how much of a fm genius bordering on god i am until some one points out i have done impossible things like not concede or lose

seriously, why the hell isnt SI employing me? even your hard coding cant stop my teams doing what the hell they want 

[herne79]

1 hour ago, Trent71 said:

It was with the same tactic, I just can't see the logic of it.

There's your problem.

You may be using the same tactic, but the opposition don't.  You believe your opponents are just going to think "oh this team have been winning lots, think I'll play the same way against them and hand them 3 points like everyone else has"?  Of course not.

But then you may say that you did change things to stop the rot and results still didn't improve - which leads to the whole "game is programmed to make us lose" theory.  What you're missing is that if you did change things without improvement, you changed the wrong things.  Throwing different kinds of wrong at the same problem doesn't make the problem go away.

All this thread is about is your own lack of understanding of how to remedy things effectively, supplemented by some rather exaggerated expectations (eg, strikers not being able to score more than 4 goals a game despite a "wicked" tactic).  And because you believe you are doing things correctly, you blame the game for your failings.

If you really want help I suggest you start by creating a new thread in the Tactics forum, post full details of your issues along with a complete description of your tactic, and see if someone can offer some insight.

[Guest]

@Trent71: Have you ever stopped to consider WHY the game developer would want to hardcode the kind of stuff you suggest? Hardcoding makes no sense, it's as simple as that.

 

Seems to me you are making the wrong kind of conclusions here.

 

As for achievements, I have neither Invincible nor Parked the Tank. But I do have On a Roll and Iron Curtain.

[craigd84]

21 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

This isn't Premier Manager. There's no hardcoding. There's nothing. Plenty of people have been able to do it and it's not because they got lucky.

Never said it was pal. just saying it can and does happen in games and you cant dispute that fact, therefore makes it plausable for someone to think it about FM, I have also unlocked the invincibles trophy, infact i have have acheived it TWICE in 10 years as Liverpool boss.

[Thorqemada]

There are some things that repeat itself regularly:

After winning, or at least not losing 5 games in a row there is a big chance the 6th game will be a disapointment.

A 3:0 lead is the most dangerous result midgame as Teams seem to switch off, my team has been a total Underdog in the 1.Bundesliga and somehow managed to win 2 or 3 times 4:3 from a match that was 0:3 after half an hour and in the lower leagues it struggles to hold a 3:2.

Yeah my Team parked the bus also and i have a Player that did a double hatrick, be Come Back King and whatnot but that happens randomly when you Play enough seasons (i played 6 or 7 seasons so far with that gamesave b4 i started to take a needed break of FM).

[forameuss]

1 hour ago, craigd84 said:

Never said it was pal. just saying it can and does happen in games and you cant dispute that fact, therefore makes it plausable for someone to think it about FM, I have also unlocked the invincibles trophy, infact i have have acheived it TWICE in 10 years as Liverpool boss.

Why stop there?  Software is also responsible for stealing personal details and spreading viruses, so therefore it must be plausible that someone thinks FM might do the same.

[Guest]

@Thorqemada: I have not seen any of those things you describe. If you only draw conclusions from your own game, you are unlikely to get statistically significant results, I'm afraid.

[Thorqemada]

Well, they happen in any Season which count to some dozen so maybe you simply have not as much as a high awareness as i do...;)

[Svenc]

The effect of players possibly "switching off" is oft overstated. AI comebacks for instance can be oft fueled by drastic switches, this was a Match uploaded in the tactic forums a few days ago. AI opponent had but one shot in the first half, but staged a quick comeback by switching to 3 central forwards at half time. This is a bit drastic in general in FM; I consider this a "specialist" formation as to FM, but as centre forwards typically don't really get behind the ball, it took the opponent AI 10 minutes to stage that comeback, could have already scored right at the first interception, as every time it intercepted it lumped the ball forward to one of the forwards, which was an easy break each time, the cbs forced one on one, and the player didn't react. One of the few things I watch out for, as that can change the match dynamics from one minute to the next. Such formations are typically given by the research as "prefered attacking formations", so not that uncommon as a mid-match switch... . If an AI manager wouldn't switch to something more attacking, such comebacks would never come about in the first place (outside of oddball matches, where a side concedes a couple penalies and oGs perhaps, as they require no proper build-up play). As for own comebacks, to me AI tactically "thinks" too much in black&white (defend/attack), which may on occasion contribute... aditionally it's reactivity is limited, as it is AI.

 

13 hours ago, Trent71 said:

Sounds like WestHamGaz from TheDugout has also been been a member of these parts, LoL!

High five! Under about a billion different alias (probably all banned, no idea).  Not to wake sleeping dogs (I'm convinced he was around just a few months ago again...), but re: also your first screenshot. What good ol' Garry's issue was is that his fooball outlook can be summed up by the following: If you have 80% of possession, and 20+ shots, you should win. Admittedly it's not entirelly his fault, as possession with a few approaches are easy to come by, and it's also not hard to dominate "shot counts". What's killed his (and he was explicitly told this ten years ago....) is that the measure he takes to get there are pretty much opposed to actually stretching defenses, which happens visibly in the ME, upon which he oft creates nothing but a load of crapshots. So... if you think that screenshot above tells anything, as it doesn't. This is one of the last I've seen of Gaz, and no matter how that's twisted, that's nothing but a load of crap, and the one opposition shot was one or two in any kind of space. You may note that he actually won this regardless, but that may tell you something about his later stages of nonsense to rage about this.

[Trent71]

9 hours ago, Svenc said:

The effect of players possibly "switching off" is oft overstated. AI comebacks for instance can be oft fueled by drastic switches, this was a Match uploaded in the tactic forums a few days ago. AI opponent had but one shot in the first half, but staged a quick comeback by switching to 3 central forwards at half time.

 

This is good, actually. I guess I'll have the opponent formation tab open now, as to notice such changes Just played Arsenal for a FA Cup match I noticed Wenger switched the roles of the players when he conceded the 1st and the 3rd goal, but overall it didn't stop my dominance. Mind you, this Fulham side is in League One! I've always found that complaining about the game helps, as I'm currently on a 20 match unbeaten run stretching across all competitions and I'm about to face Man Utd for the EFL Cup final

 

Being a veteran CM/FM player, I now sadly don't have the time for through analysis and all-nighters like I could on FM05 and get all tactically in-depth. I'm always looking for a more plug'n'play style, and even though it's made tougher to have such runs (with said variables in OP), they're still possible. The game is far from realistic or perfect - building a 3-man defense with no WBs is impossible, though when I tried, I would end up with something that gets me 40-50 shots on goal, which is pretty wicked (one game I'd win 3:0, next one I'd lose 3:6). SI still have a lot of work to perfect the ME, but they definitely have removed a lot of nasty stuff along the way.

[Svenc]

23 minutes ago, Trent71 said:

Being a veteran CM/FM player, I now sadly don't have the time for through analysis and all-nighters like I could on FM05 and get all tactically in-depth. I'm always looking for a more plug'n'play style, and even though it's made tougher to have such runs (with said variables in OP), they're still possible. The game is far from realistic or perfect - building a 3-man defense with no WBs is impossible, though when I tried, I would end up with something that gets me 40-50 shots on goal, which is pretty wicked (one game I'd win 3:0, next one I'd lose 3:6). SI still have a lot of work to perfect the ME, but they definitely have removed a lot of nasty stuff along the way.

Depends where you guy looking for tactics, but whilst that oft hinges on ME flaws (work to do indeed), "football logics" frequently don't apply, which is also why you get some fairly random matches. Not sure what you are on, but the current most popular is to go back three, inverted wingbacks (sitting narrow), no holding player midfield compressing the area going forward (in simple terms all guys sitting atop of each other impossible to pass the ball anywhere without the next guy being pressured to crapshoot), strikerless or any much narrow combo. It's essentially overloading the middle of the pitch, which realistically should be easy o defend, but isn't. This currently works (on average) spectacularly well, as... take a look at a) how wide wide players tend to position when defending, how central midfielders oft position far too close together to cover it all, plus a couple other things. If you dominate Arsenal with a League one side, it's fair to say you're on this or thereabouts.

This also has a pitfall, which is that on occasion an AI drops deep, stays that way all match (even on conceding.... as they may aim to just not lose too big), and stuffs that area, for instance with DMs, and a simple back three/five can also help, you might be getting a bit of this. If you're particularly unlucky (if you can call it such, you're going to lose this, as outside of the backs that is oft every single player pushed forward. Ideally AI would always reacto this and play that way, but it's AI, hence such "random swings" or curious blips with such tactics. Still, basic rule of the thumb, if players aren't marked proper (simply put), player quality doesn't play such a major role. Which is where that "room for improving steps in".  Nothing wrong with that at all, just as a word of warning... I've tried a few myself to check. Btw, I'm actually mostly not hugely into micro-fiddling of tactics either. Good luck on the final, and watch out!

[Trent71]

Haha, spot on! A fellow from the FMBulgaria skype chat offered me his take on the strikerless and so far it's been more dominant and impressive even than TFFs, and I've used the tactics from the latter for the earlier builds.

 

I struggled recently against a 4-1-4-1 flat (DM) that Shrewsbury played and only got a 1:1 draw with not too many chances, so I'll probably have to think of putting the AMCs as SCs if I face another tactic like that. Having the opposition formation during the match could help in the long-term to be prepared for anything.

[herne79]

On ‎07‎/‎07‎/‎2017 at 17:48, Trent71 said:

you added a key variable to the match engine, which kinda goes something like this: "If human manager goes without a loss for 10-15 games, make there's a loss somewhere in there".

 

1 hour ago, Trent71 said:

I'm currently on a 20 match unbeaten run stretching across all competitions

So SI didn't add this key variable to the match engine after all then.

You may well be frustrated with results, hell we all are at times, and ultimately you've probably got a little help here which is good, but can you understand why this type of post may in turn also frustrate other users and perhaps even SI? 

Out of frustration you've stated the game is programmed against us, which also helps fuel the myth amongst other users ("oh yeh totally I keep losing too just like this OP, must be the game").  And then without batting an eyelid merrily contradict yourself by telling us you're on a 20 match unbeaten run.

Rant and rage if you like, not a problem, but at least eat a little humble pie now that you've disproved your own argument.

On ‎07‎/‎07‎/‎2017 at 18:42, Trent71 said:

There's also a certain number of people who don't mind re-loading (not that I'm pointing any fingers),

Perhaps you'd like to apologise to these people as well, having cast aspersions about the integrity of their long unbeaten runs now that you're on one as well?

[shirajzl]

This is a classic clash of two types of players.

The one type who watches closely what's happening on the pitch, makes small tactical changes on the fly hoping to swing things in his favour, and the other type who leans towards plug and play, not having time/will/patience for slow and methodical approach of tactical nuances.

The game is not rigged or hard-coded in any way, which has clearly been shown by Rashidi, Cleon and the likes. At the same time, though, people who are not as interested in tactics suffer because it's getting increasingly difficult to properly plug and play in FM.

Many people have grown up with plug and play CM/FM and they loved it precisely because you could play like that so now it's hard to accept SI are making strides towards negating that style of gameplay each year.

It's two sides of the same coin, and underlying problem of many, many discussions here which is often not acknowledged, while being the crux of the matter.  

[Trent71]

@herne79:

Of course I go on 20 match unbeaten runs, that's not really too extensive, even though I mentioned 10 games in the OP. 20 probably means I drew more than on a 10-game streak.

Don't get me wrong, those variables still exist, otherwise we'll have To Madeira and Cherno Samba scoring 100 goals each per season. They've been implemented to make a difference, make things more "realistic", but a bit too heavily, IMO. I've played the game enough to make a statement like this. Everyone has had laughable moments like a player with 5 aggression (and probably the same amount of dirtiness) suddenly goes all Vinnie Jones in the 5th minute of a key quarter final, leaving you with the obvious turnout that you will no longer play in this competition. Or FM turning into "Crossbar Challenge Manager" and your players hitting the bar 4-5 times, and you drawing 1:1 or losing 0:1. Or maybe give example with my Botev save - my team is so good, that in the beginning 5-7-8 matches of the season I barely even concede a goal, as they can't even get near the goal, after building the team up for 7-8 seasons. Then the "has to lose" attribute kicks in and inevitably down the road I lose a random game, of course going on to win the next 10 or so easily, as the game is naturally "satisfied" that it managed to get one over me and kicked the streak. With FM having a lot of variables, you can always put it down to a number of them (overconfidence, central defender lacking concentration for a second, etc), but truth is, FM is not as flexible as we like it to be. It's more of a "catching up" system, if you'd like - if you win/score a lot, then your defenders will, at one point, turn into utter bafoons in the presence of the great AJ Leitch-Smith, and there's nothing you could do about it As you watch certain simulations you can see that some records will always stay the same. In this one, 300 years ahead, fewest wins and fewest points stay the originals, due to the "catching up" system, as no matter how poor a team comes in the Prem, they'll often get at least 12-15 points. Biggest win, highest scoring games and Berbatov's 5 against my beloved Blackburn show that the game is "limited" on high scoring results so people wouldn't go "oh, no, United can't trash Arsenal 8:2! THAT'S NOT REALISTIC!!!" The other 500 year ahead simulation shows a change in fewest points record (yay Wycombe?), but the high scoring remains. There are certain limitations to FM17 about high scoring games, which go to an absolute extreme, as they try to "deal" with exploiting/cheating tactics (instead of actually working on the variables of the ME to become better, they look to avoid To Madeira). When you go to the forums and people write about their good tactics, it's usually consistent wins of 2 goals up to 4, very rarely more. 
 

 If people over at SI were snowflakes to get frustrated over this, they probably would've stopped making the game awhile ago, don't you think?

[Guest]

Dear me, one of those links doesn't even have the French league active yet the commentator talks about past winners in Ligue 1, probably wise to stop linking flawed & unqualified experiment saves as evidence that you're right.

[Svenc]

52 minutes ago, Trent71 said:

@herne79:

the game is "limited" on high scoring results so people wouldn't go "oh, no, United can't trash Arsenal 8:2! THAT'S NOT REALISTIC!!!" The other 500 year ahead simulation shows a change in fewest points record (yay Wycombe?), but the high scoring remains. There are certain limitations to FM17 about high scoring games, which go to an absolute extreme, as they try to "deal" with exploiting/cheating tactics (instead of actually working on the variables of the ME to become better, they look to avoid To Madeira). When you go to the forums and people write about their good tactics, it's usually consistent wins of 2 goals up to 4, very rarely more.

 

It maybe that or that overall the exploits aren't that big anymore that you consistently pop up into loads of space. Nobody has insights into how SI internally actually tweak finishing, but if you were around early FM 2015, you probably knew that this doesn't work like that. Hockey scorelines were common place, as it was possible to nuke defenses, as giving attack duties to advanced players meant all of them didn't track back... that caused a lot of frustration. I also don't think exploits are the primary concern, they may be if this was Football Manager Live, though sometimes they may highlight issues that aren't picked up or underestimated in testing. As for streaks, if finishing were "accurate", which is doubtful, you had hot and colds streaks all by itself, as "big chances" in football analysis start at 1 in 5 chances of conversion, one on ones aren't converted at much higher rathes than 1 in 3 (depending on which), and generally outside of tap-ins and stuff nothing even approaches a penalty -- and those can be quite streaky itself (it may be real dumb if Leverkusen would sack their guys if you switch back to a season before). Part of the problem is, too outside of FM for many that is the only forray into any such  (I love how Gaz always used to quote he was following football stats religiously -- despite his never ending arrays of possession and shot counts). Another part is that FM's data is also oft quite simplistic.

As for the players, I think the majority of us fall somewhere in between. You can exploit the engine some for sure (I personally wouldn't have fun, I've tried, you've already got the edge on the transfer markets either way, this is literally "push continue and winwinwinwin"...), but there is also a level of micro understanding, and a lot of the in-depth tactic forum is certainly about it, that is also at a level the AI can't cope/muster. I think Rashidi's more recent vid (fantastic stuff, recommended)  was aptly titled "beating the AI" or something (edit: ok, it was "how to stop losing to the AI", but that's the same but kinda the reverse. SI AFAIK have always held the opinion that they wouldn't cater the game to any specific niche in particular, or require you to have made a 15 years effort into micro understanding the specific mechanics (this isn't merely about the ME, but also about how exactly attributes link). What they do try from what they say is to make it harder getting miracle results with below average/poor teams, or generally hugely outperforming and no effort put in, but again, you can also overperform via squad development (fairly easily... I don't think anybody needs any in-depth guides on this). Management isn't only about tactics, after all. Whilst I personally prefer this to be a challenge and remain so, I'm equally one in a million+, improved assistants in future editions may be a key component.

[lemeuresnew]

13 minutes ago, Trent71 said:

Of course I go on 20 match unbeaten runs, that's not really too extensive, even though I mentioned 10 games in the OP. 20 probably means I drew more than on a 10-game streak.

 

you, sir, are a first class troll? you cant really believe that? Liverpools record unbeaten run was in 82, with a team dominating english and europe football. stands at 25

the reest of your post you must know is complete nonsense? how else would people break them, but just because you cant it cant be done without cheating? 

maybe SI just dont like you and gave you a dodgy version. what did you do to them?

[Trent71]

7 minutes ago, Svenc said:

 

It's maybe that or that overall the exploits aren't that big anymore that you consistently pop up into loads of space. Nobody has insights into how SI internally actually tweak finishing, but if you were around early FM 2015, you probably knew that this doesn't work like that. Hockey scorelines were common place, as it was possible to nuke defenses, as giving attack duties to advanced players meant all of them didn't track back... that caused a lot of frustration.

Definitely, yeah, the wingers were so dominant that now we've went the other way with "overload in the middle" and "strikerless" It's actually kind of my point, instead of tweaking the ME to be better each year, they only re-distribute the balance Hence why it would be very hard to get a big scoreline these days, as opposed to what it was on previous installments.

 

P.S.: link to Rashidi's video please? Can't find it...

[santy001]

This thread is feeling a bit more like a fictional writing blog for Trent rather than meaningful insights on the game on his behalf. 

I like the points about 300 years and 500 years time, because obviously with such accurate records of the premier league dating back to the early 1600's we've got an abundance of realistic comparisons. Like that one year the league champions lost their entire squad to cholera and had to play the youths, but the youth squad got drafted into a war and so the wives of the squad who were lost to cholera had to play and won the league with record points.

Ultimately though Trent you should be grateful, because remember, even though you'll never be able to achieve all that someone of your undoubted skill and understanding should achieve, you can never get your team relegated or underachieve either because the game will see you're performing outside of its acceptable parameters and will make you win games. You could send out a squad of 11 40+ goalkeepers and then the game will impose its will and you can watch as your ageing keepers unleash a devastating performance.

[Svenc]

1 hour ago, Trent71 said:

P.S.: link to Rashidi's video please? Can't find it...

It's on his Bust The Net Channel.

Re that dichotomy of "plug&play" and "tactical thinkering", I think there is another, which may be closely connected, and everybody will steer either in one direction or the other, most will fall somewhere in between. It's that game vs simulation thing. Now let's not kid ourselves here, few of us would get into the job "simulated" here in the first place, certainly not most of the levels simulated in the game. Let alone would anybody have likely much long-term success, whilst on FM everybody seems to have some (well, most... show me one FM player who has never overachieved some with his club and I will admit defeat on this). So in that sense, we all fall somewhere in between by definitition, the entire thing is catered to n00bs like us. Neither do we have to really deal with the pressure of fan expectation, board and press on us, nor do we have to teach our youngsters how those basics of zonal defending may work (all of that is coded in some form into the game anyhow). Even match preparation and all that is fairly automated and abstract, boiled down to a few graphical bars and a click of the mouse. Negatiations? Confirmative!

Still, the closer you are to the "FM's a game" perspective, the more you may expect to soundly, decisively "beat the game" (which is also where plug&play tactics, most old and new, come in). If you find one that suits, hop that in, oft guarantees a huge level of quick overachievement few if any at all would otherwise muster otherwise (certainly no AI manager, ever, and Lord pray that SI never code AI managers to ape those for your saves ). But you also may react badly to things you can't fully explain, when football is full of ambiguity. You may want things to be perfectly predictable, when football is the most unpredictable team sports in the world. You may rage when you lose 0-2 to that bottom fodder as you'd just beat Barcelona 4-1 the week before, expect that such is part of every football season for every team out there. You may expect tomorrow to be just as ace as yesterday, given that you've prepared the same schedule.. SI have always taken that "simulation route", but with the above twist for us wannabes who'll never be. Some will deal better with that, and other's don't. And any such Gazhammer dilemma™ is proof of that....