ajw10 Posted April 12, 2016 Author Share Posted April 12, 2016 In what way? High pass completion or dictating the play? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coulthard's Jaw Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 Gets the ball, drives, knows when to lay it off. He's basically a Wilshere without the physical issues. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chr1s Lawson Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 Kante's like Matuidi MkII Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baptista_8 Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 Maybe we should sign Huth and Morgan too?Kante would not be a fantastic addition. He's not a good fit at all Well he's absolutely bossed the midfield for the league's leaders. So are you saying he'd be vying for the same position as Ramsey? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baptista_8 Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 Gets the ball' date=' drives, knows when to lay it off. He's basically a Wilshere without the physical issues.[/quote']Not as good technically as Wilshere in all fairness. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajw10 Posted April 12, 2016 Author Share Posted April 12, 2016 Well he's absolutely bossed the midfield for the league's leaders. So are you saying he'd be vying for the same position as Ramsey? The fact that they are league leaders is largely irrelevant. You are aware that teams have different styles and so it's not that simple, right? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coulthard's Jaw Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 About time we adapted our style. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajw10 Posted April 12, 2016 Author Share Posted April 12, 2016 To Leicester's style, which isn't sustainable nor viable for our club? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coulthard's Jaw Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 Because of course, there are only two ways of playing, our way or Leicester's way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajw10 Posted April 12, 2016 Author Share Posted April 12, 2016 Well no, but we are discussing Kante. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelBrown Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 Maybe we should sign Huth and Morgan too?Kante would not be a fantastic addition. He's not a good fit at all Kante has been one of the best players in Europe, but you wouldn't sign him? haha. Your Huth/Morgan argument makes no sense either. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajw10 Posted April 12, 2016 Author Share Posted April 12, 2016 The logic is astounding. He's been in good form so Arsenal must sign him. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coulthard's Jaw Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 Huth and Morgan would be terrible in this Arsenal team. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nucampe Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 Primary school kids have arguments more interesting than this ^ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelBrown Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 The logic is astounding. He's been in good form so Arsenal must sign him. Not just good form, he's a very good player. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vynal Seven Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 Huth and Morgan would be terrible in this Arsenal team. Maybe it's time for your perennial 4th placed team to adapt? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weezer Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 Yeah, the 'Arsenal style' isn't exactly the model of success is it? Huth and Morgan, clearly not, but can't understand an Arsenal fan turning their nose up at Kante when they've got ****ing Coquelin in the team Isn't ajw10 the same fan that didn't want Higuain too? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajw10 Posted April 12, 2016 Author Share Posted April 12, 2016 Coquelin is trash, which is why I don't want a better version of him. We need CM's who can build from the back. I've seen nothing from Kante to suggest that he's that player. And we can't adapt to how Leicester play as their style involves a lot of long balls (which is why Kante works as he's not needed as much in the build) and it's not sustainable in the long run. And this isn't an Arsenal style thing, mainly as we don't actually have one. This is about having a way of playing that is sustainable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayub95 Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 Kante is a good player who wouldn't work for the style that Arsenal play. It's not an indictment on Kante. Quite simple. Makes no sense to have him, Coquelin and Elneny who technically is the best out of the 3. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vynal Seven Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 And we can't adapt to how Leicester play as their style involves a lot of long balls (which is why Kante works as he's not needed as much in the build) and it's not sustainable in the long run. It's sustainable for a full season though which is more than Arsenal's seems to be. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJ234 Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 It isn't that sustainable. Statistically they're an outlier in various categories currently (hardly like their style of play is revolutionary either). Furthermore their style of play isn't that workable for a top team longer term. I doubt Leicester would, being trained to play the way they are, be able to over a whole season break down teams which is what top teams have to consistently do. Arsenal's style is sustainable just not if badly implemented which it is currently. Leicester's however is as well implemented as it possibly could be with the perfect players for each role and position. Kante isn't workable for Arsenal for a few reasons 1) he is more of a box to box (we have quite a few of them) 2) he doesn't know how to build play particularly so isn't the DM Arsenal need. 3) he would be absurdly expensive given these two reasons Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
H.O.V.I Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 No point talking about adapting styles when the manager is still here and isn't going anywhere. Why would anyone believe that Wenger would be enlightened now and not 5 years ago, it's not in him. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayub95 Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 Only way we would win the title going forward is to get as many top class players in and hope they figure things out as they go along. Which is Wenger's MO anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJ234 Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 Yeah pretty much. Wenger needs the players to be able to take charge (which is how his style has always worked). It is how he turns not so good players into great players but if they can't step up, it is a bit crap. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
H.O.V.I Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 Which isn't a glowing endorsement for Wenger these days, kinda the opposite. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coulthard's Jaw Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 I think we all accept now that Wenger is no longer a top class manager. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayub95 Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 Think his peak was 11-12 in hindsight. Never really recovered from the van Persie sale. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJ234 Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 Which isn't a glowing endorsement for Wenger these days, kinda the opposite. The issue with him now isn't that this is his style it is his judgement in how to achieve with it. He doesn't build squads which fit it nor with enough good options in certain areas (DM). He wasn't previously quick enough to get rid of players now but his faith in certain players (Coquelin, Walcott, Ospina, Gabriel) has led him to make bad decisions which he probably wouldn't have made before. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJ234 Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 Think his peak was 11-12 in hindsight. Never really recovered from the van Persie sale. Fabregas forcing his way out was the beginning of the end with Wenger. He made a mess of building the teams which followed and he was bailed out by his ability to make teams out of nothing. Now he has built a squad filled with good players in nearly every position but he can't work out how to get it to work together Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baptista_8 Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 The fact that they are league leaders is largely irrelevant. You are aware that teams have different styles and so it's not that simple, right? I am. I'm also aware that you like taking negative views on most things (except Ramsey and his performances) and also over-complicate things when thinking who would be suitable in your midfield. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajw10 Posted April 13, 2016 Author Share Posted April 13, 2016 There's nothing over complicated by saying that we need a deep lying, intelligent ball playing midfielder. If we signed Kante to play alongside any of our current midfielders it wouldn't make any difference to our results. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baptista_8 Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 If we signed Kante to play alongside any of our current midfielders it wouldn't make any difference to our results. There's no way you can say that for certain. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJ234 Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 Yeah it isn't over complicating things to say that Arsenal need to build from deep better and that this is our biggest problem. Kante is unlikely to improve this, as it isn't his game. To sign him could possibly improve other things (I am unconvinced) but it doesn't deal with the underlying issue in our CM area. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baptista_8 Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 While he's not as technically gifted and as good in tight areas as Ramsey, I'd say he's currently more effective. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJ234 Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 At what? That is the key part. Also can that superior effectiveness (don't disagree on this) not be derived from being in a system which asks him to do what he is good at? I don't think he is a better player than Ramsey but I do think he is being better utilised. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelBrown Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 What is he asked to do SJ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
themadsheep2001 Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 Or Arsenal could simply adapt how they play, because it's obviously not pushed them any further over the last 10 years. The issue with all the cliches and stereotypes about Arsenal is that they mostly ring true, and thats largely because players are bought and raised in the image any way Wenger wants to do things, and over the years what made him so innovative has left him flawed. Building from the back isn't as complicated as Arsenal seem to make it Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajw10 Posted April 13, 2016 Author Share Posted April 13, 2016 Or Arsenal could simply adapt how they play, because it's obviously not pushed them any further over the last 10 years.The issue with all the cliches and stereotypes about Arsenal is that they mostly ring true, and thats largely because players are bought and raised in the image any way Wenger wants to do things, and over the years what made him so innovative has left him flawed. Building from the back isn't as complicated as Arsenal seem to make it The issue isn't that we make it complicated, it's that we have too many players who can't pass a football from deep. In fact, we only have 3. Chambers, Per and Arteta. None of them play, leaving us with the likes of Gabriel and Coquelin who are awful at passing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
themadsheep2001 Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 The issue isn't that we make it complicated, it's that we have too many players who can't pass a football from deep. In fact, we only have 3. Chambers, Per and Arteta. None of them play, leaving us with the likes of Gabriel and Coquelin who are awful at passing. Yeah, for a side who wants to build from the back, the lack of ball playing defenders is baffling Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJ234 Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 What is he asked to do SJ? Not overly relevant. As I was simply asking the question whether that could be the cause of him being more effective. However Kante isn't asked to build from the back, he isn't asked to join in the final third in intricate play, he isn't asked to be another creator. He is asked to carry the ball, cover space, win the ball. My point is that could Kante's success (not to say he isn't a good player) be more a consequence of him being asked to do things which suit his game. Whilst Ramsey hasn't been put in such a situation. This is to say that it isn't clear that sticking Kante into the Arsenal team would lead to more effective performances than what Ramsey currently provides or would see Kante perform to the level he has done this season. Or Arsenal could simply adapt how they play, because it's obviously not pushed them any further over the last 10 years.The issue with all the cliches and stereotypes about Arsenal is that they mostly ring true, and thats largely because players are bought and raised in the image any way Wenger wants to do things, and over the years what made him so innovative has left him flawed. Building from the back isn't as complicated as Arsenal seem to make it Well a few issues with the first point 1) that involves a change in manager which won't happen before the end of next season in all likelihood 2) that doesn't change the need to build play well from the back 3) last 10 years isn't that important as the importance of this phase of the game has grown exponentially and wasn't nearly as important say 7 years ago On the other part. Arsenal aren't very good because they aren't well put together. We have good players who are badly utilised and a squad which doesn't fit within the structure set out by the manager. The other part is building from the back mostly isn't that complicated, you just need players and a structure to enable it. Arsenal at the very least lack the former. I would add Koscielny to AJW's list of players who can do it. You need both of your CMs to do it not just one. Arsenal other than Cazorla don't have one CM who can do it (Wilshere isn't fit enough and Ramsey needs help to do it). Otherwise you become quite easy to stop. It gets even worse when you see Gabriel and Coquelin two players who are awful at it played together when Arsenal's system is heavily reliant on CB's passing Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kawee Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 For this season, I think finishing off chances has been a bigger problem than creating chances though. We create more big chances than anyone, and has the worst conversion rate in the league. We have 4 double-digit goal scorers, all off-form with lower than career-averages in Giroud, Ramsey, Walcott, and Alexis. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJ234 Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 Finishing has been bad however it is a statistical underperformance, for instance by one metric Alexis was before this season began the third best finisher in the top European leagues. It is something which isn't that likely to be repeated. However it is hard to not watch Arsenal endlessly going nowhere with their passing or struggling against teams which press well without seeing the need to improve that. It is also something more structural and thus repeatable Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajw10 Posted April 13, 2016 Author Share Posted April 13, 2016 Do we create more big chances than anyone? That doesn't seem true at all. Kos can pass from the back, but I wouldn't rely on him to be the only one. He's not Gabriel bad, but then he's nowhere near the level of Per and Chambers in that regard. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJ234 Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 He carries the ball substantially better than Mertesacker who is very unwilling. His passing isn't quite as good between the lines but the different isn't particularly substantial. Chambers is easily the most natural on the ball. Gabriel is inept. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajw10 Posted April 13, 2016 Author Share Posted April 13, 2016 Gabriel is genuinely bad at everything. It's amazing that Wenger doesn't see this. He's worse than Coquelin is ffs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJ234 Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 I can understand moving away from Mertesacker but not if the next guy is Gabriel who is just so raw. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajw10 Posted April 13, 2016 Author Share Posted April 13, 2016 Moving away from Per is fine, but yeah, replace him with Chambers if you are doing it internally. I hope Wenger hits his head and decides to play Cech, Bellerin, Chambers, Koscielny, Monreal, Elneny, Ramsey, Alexis, Ozil, Iwobi, Welbeck from now until the end of the season. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJ234 Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 Yeah I agree Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coulthard's Jaw Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 Who knows how good Gabriel is, there are very few central defenders who would look any good in a Wenger team. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayub95 Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 We are going to need a defender capable of attacking the ball and being able to cover large distances quickly (sadly). Makes sense why we are linked with Manolas again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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