What exactly have I paid for here?

[FrankFizzle]

That said the OP has actually given an interesting debate. At times with FC United I've wondered whether or not having Ronaldo on the wing whether I'd win a game - to be honest, this has probably why the Blackburn superstar XI has been trialled. Some would argue that what I've been thinking is correct, others suggest it's tactics. However, how anyone can describe it "plausible" that the 3 attacking players can't score in 180mins against average Chanpionship opposition need to come off Planet La La & perhaps realise the full FM version is far from polished.

[Hansen2212]

Based on 2 games, from one person? No the result is not clear, not even in the slightest, that is a tiny tiny sample. It could be a number of things already mentioned in this thread. And without ever looking at the save/pkm/setup, you could never get to that conclusion.

I understand what you are saying, but thats the whole point there is no setup issues, tactical reasons, team cohesion, tactic familarity that can excuse these results.

Josip Guardiola for one says that players win football games, not coaches or tactics - do you think that Messi care about team cohesion of familarity when he runs past 3 or 4 players and scores?

Now im not saying that tactics etc doesnt matter, but in FM they need be be adjusted in relation to player ability, OPs team would beat Derby and Forest with no coach, we all know that - thats why those playes are about the best in the world in their position.

I wonder how far down the leagues that OPs team would loose and we can still excuse it with tactics, League 2? Conference? Scottish Division 2?

Its not just 2 games from one person, there is a reason that OP did his experiment and I am sure that he isnt the only one feeling like that.

[Georgik]

Anyway i wonder how he edited the team, i think he edited his finances also, as the wage bill i think is through the roof )

[themadsheep2001]

I understand what you are saying, but thats the whole point there is no setup issues, tactical reasons, team cohesion, tactic familarity that can excuse these results.

Josip Guardiola for one says that players win football games, not coaches or tactics - do you think that Messi care about team cohesion of familarity when he runs past 3 or 4 players and scores?

Now im not saying that tactics etc doesnt matter, but in FM they need be be adjusted in relation to player ability, OPs team would beat Derby and Forest with no coach, we all know that - thats why those playes are about the best in the world in their position.

I wonder how far down the leagues that OPs team would loose and we can still excuse it with tactics, League 2? Conference? Scottish Division 2?

Its not just 2 games from one person, there is a reason that OP did his experiment and I am sure that he isnt the only one feeling like that.

The first sentence is exactly where you are wrong though, and that is the crux of the matter, saying there is no situation that this can happen is wrong.

Secondly, it just one person and 2 games. Now if you had multiple Ops with longer playing numbers, ie a season then you start to have some kind of analysis

Whatever the experiment is, it simply does not carry enough evidence, nor does it have anywhere near a big enough sample.

[themadsheep2001]

That said the OP has actually given an interesting debate. At times with FC United I've wondered whether or not having Ronaldo on the wing whether I'd win a game - to be honest, this has probably why the Blackburn superstar XI has been trialled. Some would argue that what I've been thinking is correct, others suggest it's tactics. However, how anyone can describe it "plausible" that the 3 attacking players can't score in 180mins against average Chanpionship opposition need to come off Planet La La & perhaps realise the full FM version is far from polished.

It's not planet La La at all, If that's all you have to contribute I suggest you leave it there

[Georgik]

If the OP doesnt carry on, i think that i'll start the experiment to see how it goes ) Never done it before.

[Dagenham_Dave]

It's about as plausible as Yeovil beating Barcelona in the Champions League final.

No it isn't.

For one thing, as has been pointed out several times, Barcelona have been playing together for years. For another, for it to be the Champions League final, even if the Barca team had only been thrown together at the start of the season, by the time the Champs League final came along, it's fair to say they would have gelled.

Anyway, if the OP was to play a full season, there is no doubt his Blackburn side would win the division at a canter. That they've struggled a bit in the first couple of games is perhaps unexpected, at worst unlikely, but most definitely possible. It's also very possible, and indeed likely, that playing those two games over and over again would yield positive results for Blackburn the majority of times.

To sit there and blindly criticise the game because a hastily assembled bunch of superstars can't win their first couple of games in an unfamiliar country against hard, physical players is more than a bit silly.

[jujigatame]

Yes, but in real life, for the most part, the bigger teams are managed by people who know what they're doing. That's not meant to be obtusely disparaging to the FM crowd before daylight pipes up, it's merely an observation. Very few of us will have managed in real life, and only slightly more will be anywhere near as tactically adept as those who are paid to do that job. It would be an interesting experiment, for example, to have Arsene Wenger himself managing that Blackburn side.

Well of course none of us have managed IRL, but that's somewhat irrelevant as we're competing against computer AI managers in a simulation, and the entire concept of "tactical adeptness" needs to be viewed in the context of that simulation. Maybe we'd need a more complete description of his tactics, but the OP's description of playing a 4-2-3-1 with Fabregas and Vidal as DLP and BWM makes me think he's not asking anything completely mad from his squad. I'd love to see how the numbers play out over 20 replays of the same match, with and without tactical familiarity maximized.

I've been long suspicious of the game's treatment of motivation and cohesion because it's just so unbelievably opaque. If anything in the game is causing more upsets than is realistic, I would strongly suspect those elements of the game to be the culprits.

[le_crab]

the OP has opened up a right can of worms with this post.

[Erimus1876]

After starting numerous games in the Skrill North & South juggling tactics, trying every formation thinking "one's gotta work - this team that I've assembled is surperior to most", I came to the conclusion that it was absolutely impossible to hit the big time with lower league teams like I have previously done on FM13, 12, 11 etc. Anyway, I thought I'd rediscover that winning feeling by resorting Editor & putting together a dream team like I did when I was 12 or 13 and wanted Beckham, Zidane & Rivaldo in the same team.

Chosen club: Blackburn

Formation: 4-2-3-1

Team News: Devastated to learn that Bale starts with a 2 month injury, but thought the other 10 world beaters in my line up should be able to carry a somewhat 'capable' replacement in Alan Judge.

So Derby away, not the easiest but it won't matter surely. I have the ultimate team, the team that you hope to achieve after playing it for 30 seasons and trying to get the best player in every position!

Upload your saved game and let people play around with it. All I see here is endless opinions of this that and the other. If there's a fundamental flaw people here will find it in no time and bug reports can be submitted to SI. Or if the game is working as intended then people can give you advice on what you did wrong and explain how to get that team playing to its potential.

[Georgik]

I'll make my own team, with the following players :

Neuer - Ramos - Pique - Varane - Alaba - Schweinsteiger - Fabregas - Cristiano - Bale - Messi - Aguero

I'll pick Nottingham Forrest, will come back with more details.

[Dagenham_Dave]

I'll make my own team, with the following players :

Neuer - Ramos - Pique - Varane - Alaba - Schweinsteiger - Fabregas - Cristiano - Bale - Messi - Aguero

I'll pick Nottingham Forrest, will come back with more details.

Bear in mind the OP's team had a couple of championship players alongside the superstars.

[Georgik]

Just because Bale got injured, but i'll keep championship players as substitutes. And decided to pick Neymar for AML role instead of Bale.

[Georgik]

So this is how my team will look, after making some changes from the previous :

Neuer - Ramos - Pique - Hummels - Alaba - Schweinsteiger - Iniesta - Cristiano - Messi - Neymar - Aguero , and i'll add Varane, Kroos, Isco and Benzema as covers in case more than 2 players get injured, if only one will get injured i'll use a Championship player as replacement.

[Svenc]

It's all nice posting line-ups (and accusing the OP of being bad at the game) when there is but that line-up and no further statistical evidence how the games may have played out or how the team was actually set up. As everybody who's into the game knows basic formations are just that, for all I care he could have not employed a single holding role and made himself open to counters galore, and probably his entire roles and duties setup meant that attacks were isolated affairs of a couple of individuals, but then maybe that didn't apply at all. Thing is, without any info it is impossible to tell, and the perception that you should just "hit a basic 4-4-2 formation" with decent sides and be en route to success is a misconception that has plagued FM for very long. So in that sense, just saying.

Also, I've seen multiple times and witnessed myself that the passive defensive behavior* in the current iteration of the ME occasionally causes sides superior getting more than 40 shots on goal, up to 60, 70 in fact, it's insane. As previous iterations of FM have revealed, it is simulated that teams taking pot shots and not hitting one home grow increasingly frustrated, and the defending team lasting the bombardment grows in confidence. In this case, it might be a mix of it all or similar. Even if the teams of edited super stars are unmotivated and lack in team cohesion, also factors, they're still superior players and (historically anywayse) cause plenty trouble just by being there up against inferior opposition who cannot handle them. That's not a guarantee of success, but there's a reason why it was really hard to take Real and not finish 2nd at least in La Liga -- somebody like Ronaldo occasionally had a dozen successful runs per match (not unrealistic at all, mind), and as such caused plenty trouble just by fielding him anywhere, no matter if your tactics completely isolated him when in possession. As in real football, isolated moves by individual players rather than team tactics can win games. There is no guarantee for that though.

* this time last year you've had matches that were resembling handball matches, which was far more drastic in a way -- even if you were playing a First Division team and faced amateurs at home, they were given all the time on the ball to combine into your own third, and if you won the ball back, the same applied in the other direction. This year not even the most aggressive settings will cause your side to press really hard, and the more cautious settings no doubt applied by the AI in these matches talked about here can just amplify this issue. Teams are getting tons of time on the ball to place their shots.

[Dagenham_Dave]

So this is how my team will look, after making some changes from the previous :

Neuer - Ramos - Pique - Hummels - Alaba - Schweinsteiger - Iniesta - Cristiano - Messi - Neymar - Aguero , and i'll add Varane, Kroos, Isco and Benzema as covers in case more than 2 players get injured, if only one will get injured i'll use a Championship player as replacement.

Seeing as how the OP has long since departed, perhaps you could upload your save for us to have a try with.

[Georgik]

Seeing as how the OP has long since departed, perhaps you could upload your save for us to have a try with.

I'm currently editing, setting finances ... i'll leave the ticket prices as they are though ) just changed the balance from 70 mil pounds to 700mil

[Georgik]

Done ! Link - http://www42.zippyshare.com/v/52155398/file.html

[Georgik]

I also choosed international reputation to fit in.

[Georgik]

It seems my assistant is rubbish, are you having a laugh ? :

[Dagenham_Dave]

Downloaded, skipped all meetings, and holidaying until the Friday before the first league game. I'll post a screenie of the first couple of games...

[Dagenham_Dave]

Here's how the AM handled the pre-season games...

So far, so good, now to the first league game v Huddersfield, controlled by myself...

[Georgik]

Nice, at my save Messi out for 3 weeks )

I'm playing 4-2-3-1 with complete full backs, except ramos which is set as a normal fullback, BWM - Schweini, AP - Iniesta, IF - CR , TrQ - Messi, IF - Neymar, CS - Aguero

Very Fluid and Attacking

Also, i'm getting refused extra staff because of financiar fair play ...

Made a mistake in the editor and Ozil, Fabregas are free agents unfortunately, in my save Fabregas went to Psg and Ozil to Barca

[valehannes]

Passing was atrocious and the amount of individual greed was outrageous. Huddersfield scored from a corner.

[Georgik]

Struggled, but had 25 shots 10 ot while they had 4 shots 1 ot scored 1

[themadsheep2001]

Nice, at my save Messi out for 3 weeks )

I'm playing 4-2-3-1 with complete full backs, except ramos which is set as a normal fullback, BWM - Schweini, AP - Iniesta, IF - CR , TrQ - Messi, IF - Neymar, CS - Aguero

Very Fluid and Attacking

Also, i'm getting refused extra staff because of financiar fair play ...

Made a mistake in the editor and Ozil, Fabregas are free agents unfortunately, in my save Fabregas went to Psg and Ozil to Barca

Why very fluid with so many specialist roles?

[valehannes]

I actually managed to draw the second league game when I set as many roles attacking as I could. All except 2 ball playing defenders.

[Georgik]

Because i want free-flowing football ... and it seems to work, even though i drew 1-1 at blackburn i had 40 shots and 20 on target while they had only 5, will see how the team will perform. I'm still experimenting through the tactics.

[Dagenham_Dave]

You both did slightly better than me in the first game. I have to say though, I simmed through pre-season, havent done any meetings, or prepared any training or tactics,

Their goal was a late-ish equaliser from a free kick out wide.

[Georgik]

It seems that there is a trend, the AI needs very few chances to score a goal while i need twice if not 3 times more chances to score.

I'm averaging 35 shots per game, with 20 on target.

[valehannes]

I've been storming out of everything.

[Georgik]

Aguero and Cristiano have a hard time scoring against Mansfield in League Cup.

[jujigatame]

It seems that there is a trend, the AI needs very few chances to score a goal while i need twice if not 3 times more chances to score.

Wow, it would be crazy if this thread finally managed to provide some evidence for this. It's an accusation that gets bandied about so frequently here and is always summarily dismissed as confirmation bias.

[andyinuk]

Let's face it though. If this is the other way round, where a player control a champtionship level team, and managed to beat a world class team. The player would be running around and screaming, "I AM THE BEST!" (or whatever that people would shout).

[Georgik]

Wow, it would be crazy if this thread finally managed to provide some evidence for this. It's an accusation that gets bandied about so frequently here and is always summarily dismissed as confirmation bias.

There is no clearer proof than this.

[Dagenham_Dave]

Haha, how is that 'proof'?

[RTHerringbone]

Wow, it would be crazy if this thread finally managed to provide some evidence for this. It's an accusation that gets bandied about so frequently here and is always summarily dismissed as confirmation bias.

Trust me, this thread will not be providing any reasonable evidence that this is the case

Irrespective of the make-up of the teams, there still needs to be some degree of tactical competence or you'll still get some strange looking stats.

[v InterfectoR v]

Why not try it the other way around? Go against the team of superstars and see how you fair.

[Georgik]

In all my matches so far i got at least 35 shots with at least 15 on target, and managed just 1 thrashing, 5-0 to Scunthorpe, while the AI had max 7 shots, 3-4 on target and managed to score everytime, isnt this a trend ?

[themadsheep2001]

Because i want free-flowing football ... and it seems to work, even though i drew 1-1 at blackburn i had 40 shots and 20 on target while they had only 5, will see how the team will perform. I'm still experimenting through the tactics.

That's not exactly what fluid means in that case.

[themadsheep2001]

In all my matches so far i got at least 35 shots with at least 15 on target, and managed just 1 thrashing, 5-0 to Scunthorpe, while the AI had max 7 shots, 3-4 on target and managed to score everytime, isnt this a trend ?

I've seen a trend, which is why I asked you why very fluid, especially coupled with attacking

[Georgik]

That's not exactly what fluid means in that case.

I know what you're pointing but its hard to concentrate when you have so many great players at your disposal, hard to take the game serious )

I'm used to manage teams like Spurs or Napoli to Champions League glory )

[Dagenham_Dave]

Second game...

So, that's a win and a draw where all I've done is set up the team and picked a basic 4-2-3-1 formation. No shouts, no training, no team talks, nothing. Had I started a normal game at Championship level and did the same, I'd have been hammered in those two games. I'll now sim to the end of the season with this squad, see how they get on...

[valehannes]

On an unrelated joke I just signed Hulk because I was running out of players and in the contract negotiations his first offer was rotation status .

[Georgik]

I've seen a trend, which is why I asked you why very fluid, especially coupled with attacking

How do you want me to play, Control ?

With so many gifted players i'm more inclined to let them express themselves on the field. Maybe i'm making some mistakes because usually i take a more disciplined approach of the games.

[valehannes]

[Georgik]

Changed to Fluid and Attacking with team instructions : more expressive, roam from positions, higher tempo, push higher up, work ball into box and play out of defence

[themadsheep2001]

How do you want me to play, Control ?

With so many gifted players i'm more inclined to let them express themselves on the field. Maybe i'm making some mistakes because usually i take a more disciplined approach of the games.

But you don't need to do that with attacking and very fluid. You are actually playing into the defending sides hands on the surface of it all. They just park the bus which, rather than you testing them by pulling them out of position and losing shape.

I'm going to test this when I get home.

Btw the point about fluid and attacking is one I would make regardless of this experiment. In my experience its just not the best way to open up defensive sides

[akkm]

You didn't watch the early struggles of PSG then? Never saw Pellegrini's Madrid get embarrassed by lower level opposition? If his whole set up is flawed, not just his on pitch tactics, but the whole cohesion and set is off, then he is going to have issues.

The simple fact is, most real life sides are well drilled at their basics in terms of cohesion, so you rarely see that level of no cohesion. PSG were an excellent example of when that cohesion isn't there in a big team.

Your interpretation is wrong by the way.

A common misconception (usually perpetrated by mourinho fans) is that pellegrini struggled at Madrid..he posted 96 pts in the league winning the same amount of games as barca who were at that time at the peak of their powers and madrid scored more goals than barca. To suggest they struggled is ill conceived. They were unfortunate to come up against the best technical team of all time...pellegrini was unfortunate not to get the benefit that Jose did competing against a barca in decline to overcome them and also not to get more than one year when Jose did worse in his first year than pellegrini.

Naturally there will be an adjustment period but the players on the Fm blackburn team are far superior than those psg signings and championship teams worse than ligue 1 teams psg faces so even more of a disparity between abilities..players talents should have most bearing on outcome of games as long as an even basic fundamentally sound tactic is employed. It's players (quality) that win games irl where tactics are employed primarily as a weapon against superior opposition to stop opposition..yes tactics/determination/morale/fight/good breaks/off day from opposition can cause real results but that team losing two games needing to adjust against derby and nottm forest irl life has surreally long odds

[milnerpoint]

It seems that there is a trend, the AI needs very few chances to score a goal while i need twice if not 3 times more chances to score.

I'm averaging 35 shots per game, with 20 on target.

Guess which team i am in this screen shot,