Re-adding yourself after the sack = accomplishments worthless?

[duuuaaaane]

Settle a debate here lads,

In an online game with a mate and we're in 2018/19 season.

I've stuck with LFC for the duration and established them as a CL side but not won a single trophy.

My mate, however, has won the League and FA Cup twice in the past two seasons.

However in his first season in charge (of Chelsea), he was sacked, he retired and readded himself - to the same job, then less than 12 months later was sacked again, he readded himself - to the same job, 2 seasons later he began to bring success.

Is his success tarnished but still impressive or do the two sackings and readding himself completely null and void any accomplishment with that team?

Cheers!

[TacticalGenius]

Null and void.

Even if he attained it without the sackings/re-adding, for Chelsea that isn't an impressive trophy haul.

[Plainlayzee]

I would say null and void as well. At the end of the day he has been sacked twice, what he has done is the same as quitting a game after a defeat and re playing it until you win

[Kenco]

I play a mutliplayer game occasionally and we always say we are not allowed to add manager, we have to go and find another job and make a career of it, regardless of sackings.

[Ackter]

No more worthless than adding yourself to an already established club with a manager tbh.

It's no different from taking over from any other manager.

[Ackter]

what he has done is the same as quitting a game after a defeat and re playing it until you win

No, it's really not.

[soccer.joel]

With online games it is understandable because you want to manage at the same level but for single games it shouldn't be done

[Ackter]

With online games it is understandable because you want to manage at the same level but for single games it shouldn't be done

Then you also shouldn't be allowed to start a new game, ever. Your very first save should be the only one you're allowed to play.

[Herbert Fandel]

it shouldn't be done

"shouldn't be done" misses the point entirely for me. People, having bought the game, should do whatever they want.

The question, and indeed the OP's question, comes in when someone then tries to make doing this as entirely comparable in terms of achievements to not doing it, which in my opinion it isn't.

Free to do what you want, but OP I put your achievement in not getting sacked higher than his in getting sacked twice then winning what Chelsea should be winning.

[JimbobWWFC]

As has been said: it is your game, play it how you want to. Yes, what has happened is unrealistic, but it's the same as you taking over Liverpool at the very start of the game, etc.

With that being said, it sounds like you should have agreed on a few ground rules to prevent this type of stuff from happening

[OxfordUnitedFC]

As said above its your game, you paid for it so you can do what you want. Only thing i'd say though is don't go bragging about what you've achieved after you've done it.

[Ackter]

As said above its your game, you paid for it so you can do what you want. Only thing i'd say though is don't go bragging about what you've achieved after you've done it.

Why not?

Why is a manager who started two seasons into the game any different from one who started at the start?

[Herbert Fandel]

Why not?

Why is a manager who started two seasons into the game any different from one who started at the start?

He isn't.

He is different from one who has won two trophies and two cups without getting sacked twice over those years.

The individual in-game manager's actions are the same, the human player's wider actions over the wider span aren't.

[MichaelBrown]

I personally wouldn't class it as success and I would think that the trophies are void, but it could also be argued that Ackter makes a good argument. Gotta sit on the fence here.

[Lawlore]

It's down to house rules, really. Personally I don't think there's much to rub in if you do that, but it's your call. Would he be as forgiving if the roles were reversed?

[Guest]

For me the success is tainted, his previous incarnations have allowed him to screw things up without any damage to his current manager's reputation.

Some might say that this is no different to taking over from a failed AI manager, it's not.

The key difference is when you do that you have little to no knowledge of the side you're taking over, in this instance he will have significant knowledge of what does & doesn't work.

[Ackter]

I personally wouldn't class it as success and I would think that the trophies are void, but it could also be argued that Ackter makes a good argument. Gotta sit on the fence here.

But why would it void your trophies?

All you've effectively done is take over a struggling club and made them good.

Taking over Chelsea and winning a few trophies/cups, after their last two managers were sacked for winning nothing, is surely a good achievement?

Surely it's a harder challenge than taking over Chelsea from the start and winning some stuff?

[Ackter]

For me the success is tainted, his previous incarnations have allowed him to screw things up without any damage to his current manager's reputation.Some might say that this is no different to taking over from a failed AI manager, the key difference is when you do that you have little to no knowledge of the side you're taking over. In this instance he will have significant knowledge of what does & doesn't work.

Then all success from every save game other than your very first one is tainted.

[Herbert Fandel]

But why would it void your trophies?

All you've effectively done is take over a struggling club and made them good.

Taking over Chelsea and winning a few trophies/cups, after their last two managers were sacked for winning nothing, is surely a good achievement?

Surely it's a harder challenge than taking over Chelsea from the start and winning some stuff?

It dosn't change the fact that you were the two managers who were sacked, that you were the one who made them struggle.

As I explained above, it doesn't impact on the success of that shorter time frame, and may as you say even improve the impressiveness of that shorter time-frame, but in an online game like that, if the two users choose to compare themselves in terms of achievements, both should be judged by the entire time period, which includes the two sackings for one of them. It may be 3 different in-game managers, but it is 1 human user.

A new game is a new time-frame, and the two are not analogous.

[Guest]

Then all success from every save game other than your very first one is tainted.

Less special rather than tainted, the prior knowledge of how Chelsea had developed in that particular save pushes that concept to a slightly different level.

[MichaelBrown]

But why would it void your trophies?

All you've effectively done is take over a struggling club and made them good.

Taking over Chelsea and winning a few trophies/cups, after their last two managers were sacked for winning nothing, is surely a good achievement?

Surely it's a harder challenge than taking over Chelsea from the start and winning some stuff?

It's just that I try to play the game like a manager would in real life. If I get sacked (once in FM13, West Brom in the Championship when I took over them in 18th in January and board wanted to win the league) I move down the leagues and I try to build up again. Like I said, it's just a personal view and I concede that FM allows managers to do different things etc.

[Ackter]

Less special rather than tainted, the prior knowledge of how Chelsea had developed in that particular save pushes that concept to a slightly different level.

But you know how Chelsea have developed when starting a new game too?

[Ackter]

It's just that I try to play the game like a manager would in real life. If I get sacked (once in FM13, West Brom in the Championship when I took over them in 18th in January and board wanted to win the league) I move down the leagues and I try to build up again. Like I said, it's just a personal view and I concede that FM allows managers to do different things etc.

But by retiring the manager, he's starting a whole new manager instead - it's no different from starting a new save.

[OxfordUnitedFC]

But you know how Chelsea have developed when starting a new game too?

But you're not taking over from yourself having been sacked when you start a game from scratch.

[Ackter]

No, you're a new manager taking over from an old manager who screwed things up for the club. It can be very strongly argued that the game never starts from scratch. It starts from over 100 years of development and progress.

People are far too focused on how they think people should play the game.

[OxfordUnitedFC]

No, you're a new manager taking over from an old manager who screwed things up for the club. It can be very strongly argued that the game never starts from scratch. It starts from over 100 years of development and progress.

People are far too focused on how they think people should play the game.

Youre taking over from yourself you've just created yourself again possibly under a different name. Talking of 'people are too focused on how they think people should play the game' i would say see my earlier post where i said he's paid for the game so he can play it as he wants.

[Ackter]

Yes, but he's still being judged for playing it like he wants to.

[Herbert Fandel]

People are far too focused on how they think people should play the game.

This topic isn't about how people can play the game. It is about whether the OP's friend can equate his achievements to as if he hadn't been sacked at all, which he can't. He can of course add himself as many times as he likes. I did it recently (for first time in years and years) on a Norwich save, as I was free to do, but any 'achievements' I go on to get will always be somewhat reduced by the fact I got sacked first.

If you win a trophy after re-adding yourself having been sacked, then you deserve credit for winning the trohpy. If you win the same trophy without having been sacked first, then you deserve slightly more credit, as not only did you win it but you kept your performance at a consistent minimum level.

Whilst both deserve some credit, they are not 100% equal and your bizarre constant assertions that they are truly are honestly leads me to conclude you are a bit bored and are playing devils advocate to amuse yourself. Right?

[Guest]

But you know how Chelsea have developed when starting a new game too?

No I don't, I have a idea, an inkling even but not absolute knowledge gained by managing that group of players for 2 seasons.

[Ackter]

Of course he can - winning a trophy after taking over a struggling team (even if its his previous manager that caused them to struggle) is an achievement. It's arguably a more impressive achievement than taking Chelsea from the start of the game and winning a trophy.

When you compare their performances within that save game in comparison to each other, it becomes a different matter. His wins aren't cheapened, but his losses shouldn't be dismissed or have any effect on those wins.

What would you consider worse? Someone who starts at Chelsea and gets sacked, then wins a cup or someone who wins a cup at Chelsea and then gets sacked? Everything else is the same, it's only the timing that's reversed.

[Ackter]

No I don't, I have a idea, an inkling even but not absolute knowledge gained by managing that group of players for 2 seasons.

If you've just managed a group of players badly enough to get sacked twice, I'd argue that you wouldn't even have an inkling on how they've developed during your time either

[Guest]

No, you're a new manager taking over from an old manager who screwed things up for the club. It can be very strongly argued that the game never starts from scratch. It starts from over 100 years of development and progress.People are far too focused on how they think people should play the game.

Hang on a minute, the community has been asked a question & has answered, is there any need to criticise the general consensus because you do not agree or are just in an argumentative mood?

[Ackter]

You're forgetting that I'm also a part of the community.

[Guest]

You're on a lonely island though.

[JimbobWWFC]

Is it time to close this thread yet?

[Ackter]

You're on a lonely island though.

It's an awesome island though

[darthrodent]

I am outraged! This is an abomination of all things decent. You tell him from me that he's a cheat and a failure. I was sacked in my long term-game with my brother from Tottenham. As if that wasn't embarrassment enough both QPR and Leicester City—both Championship teams at the time—suggested I wasn't 'the man to take the club forward'! I was an established former international with six arduous years of Premiership managerial experience for FS. Thankfully a club if infinite integrity and decency, a European powerhouse of success and tradition saw my true qualities. FC Porto. It was the most miserable half a season I've ever experienced. Trying to get motivated against Rio Ave was a tad difficult and it was truly tedious putting six past every team though I have to say Joao Moutinho was unbelievable.

Sorry, but his success counts for nothing. When one falls from grace, one must earn one's stripes again with humility. If I were you I would suggest starting again. It's not fair.

[x42bn6]

As a real-life person, all the OP's friend has done is learnt from past failures - it just so happens he's done so with the same saved game with the same club. He could easily have done so with another save, or another club, or even just save scummed.

Does it take away some of the gloss? To me, yes. If you take over a struggling club, the board pressure is less on your present incarnation (although I don't think that has any real effect beyond job security?), and any player who disliked your past reincarnation doesn't dislike your current incarnation. Although, I suppose, on the flip side, you lose out on any benefits - i.e. if a player favoured your past incarnation, or your past incarnation had more managerial friends to make signing players from them easier. However, to him as a real person, it would have been a better achievement to have got the vital wins to save your career - i.e. if you did better in the past, you would have... done better (i.e. achieved more).

Such things diminish with real-life time, of course. Should the fact that Rafa Benítez was once sacked by Real Valladolid in the mid-90s count as much as his sacking by Liverpool, say? Does the Real Valladolid sacking take the gloss off his Champions League victory? You might even argue if he had not been sacked by Real Valladolid, he might never have won the Champions League.

Would this be comparable to save scumming? With save scumming, you're learning, but you are also going back in time so the history only shows the good stuff - is brute-force an achievement? I think the real phrase is "misrepresentation" here - save scumming is learning and eventual success admirable, but using this save to show off is misrepresentation. In theory, after mass-save scumming, you would be able to start the same save again and perform (without save scumming), on average, better than before - maybe even win a trophy or two. Admirable? Yes.

With the sack-retire-rehire cycle, I don't see that as misrepresentating - but as before, I can see why some of the gloss is taken off. In some cases, it might actually add gloss - i.e. get sacked and rejoin but with a lower reputation or win the league with a deliberate handicap - which I don't think has happened.

So yes, to answer the OP, I think it tarnishes it somewhat, but it doesn't render it null and void, either, assuming he hasn't done something fancy like his final incarnation having the best-possible reputation, more than his other incarnations.

[Guest]

You could have just said, yes it is tarnished.

[x42bn6]

You could have just said, yes it is tarnished.

It's not as simple as that. The thread length alone shows.

[The Chosen One]

Personally it shouldn't be counted solely because he's doing it with the same team. If he had got the sack and tried with different team and succeeded then it's totally different since he would be completely new to what works for that team.

[Ackter]

Considering he's just been fired, he hardly knows what works with that team either.

[duuuaaaane]

Thanks for the replies folks!

He's writing his own response now.

I believe the accomplishments are impressive, but there will always be a little * (or two, he did get sacked twice) next to them as he should never of been in a position to win them with that team at that club.

I've suggested he go back to his old club, Southampton (13th twice, left for Chelsea) and re-earn his stripes, I think is more than fair and yes I understand he'd have to retire and re-add himself again but it's a way of judging talent long term over the career.

[lampy]

Hello, I'm the Chelsea manager so I'm here to explain myself to you all. Firstly, let me just point out that I've been playing FM for years now including CM. Please don't say I'm cocky but I'm the most decorated manager in the world. I don't have an equal. My stats speak for themselves. In this save with my mate and my Arsenal save. 6 League Titles, 18 cups, Manager of the Year 7 times, Manager of the Month 20 times. I could go on about how I pioneered my own formation that bangs me 100+ goals a season in the league or how I destroyed Madrid 5-2 at home. That's the history lesson taken care of then, so here's my story.

We started out Southampton & Liverpool, I got Southy 13th in my first 2 seasons. I was still adapting the players to my methods so we didn't reach my level until the 3rd season in when the players really started turning into world class LADS. We were inside the top 8 around Jan. The Chelsea job came up and I wanted instant success because I had a hunger and desire I knew I wouldn't fulfill at the Saints for at least 2 more seasons. I took the Chelsea job. I had a bad start, the lads struggled to adapt to my tactics. We finished 6th that season and my job was very insecure. I got the sack in November, all I needed was a little bit of time to get things right, things were starting to click.

After that I added myself again because I had set up the foundations for Chelsea. Same story again, got sacked mid season and re-added myself. That season, I finished 5th and won the FA cup which secure my job. The wonderkids I signed were turning into men and it was showing. The next season I won the FA CUP and the EPL. I am currently dominating in my current season. SO yeah, I re-added myself and don't see it as cheating in an online game. I wouldn't do it in a SP game but it's online and my sacking wasn't fair. I am a FM KING AND DESERVE TO BE TREATED AS ONE.

SO I ASK YOU PEOPLE, SHOULD I RETIRE AS GAFFER AND ADD MYSELF AS SOUTHAMPTON MANAGER AGAIN? Or stick with Chelsea because I have turned them into a winning machine. My mate often gets *****ed on by me. 4-1 in our last game..

[Guest]

You two need to come up with a set if rules to stop this happening.

On the clan game I'm part a manager can only recycle after being unemployed for a month & must start at the lowest agreed level.

As for your situation the horse has already bolted so I don't see a reason to quit, unless you're feeling really guilty. Just remember that if your mate wins the league it's more worthy than all your titles.

[Ackter]

Yeah just decide on ground rules before you start playing and everything is nice and dandy.

[gogogo golem]

I'd like to say, that really he's managed this team all the way through to win those trophies. However, everyone is entitled to their opinion. He's entitled to play the game how he wants but if you don't like it, and I can see that viewpoint entirely, then just make sure you have some ground rules before you start.

[Herbert Fandel]

I'd like to say, that really he's managed this team all the way through to win those trophies. However, everyone is entitled to their opinion. He's entitled to play the game how he wants but if you don't like it, and I can see that viewpoint entirely, then just make sure you have some ground rules before you start.

Yeah so he won the trophies fair and square, but he didn't keep a consistent level of performance before doing so.

For example, in a hypothetical world, you could sell all Chelseas players and buy all the worlds best 16 year olds. 10 years later you would have the best squad ever known to humanity. But your team would probably be pretty poor for a year or two first. You would get sacked, but win trophies later in the file.

To win those trophies later, whilst also doing well enough in the present to stay in a job, is more impressive. This is why in my eyes retiring and recreating doesn't make the trophies null and void, but it cheapens them considerably as you didn't do consistently well enough to stay in a job long enough to get them.

[gogogo golem]

Yeah so he won the trophies fair and square, but he didn't keep a consistent level of performance before doing so.

For example, in a hypothetical world, you could sell all Chelseas players and buy all the worlds best 16 year olds. 10 years later you would have the best squad ever known to humanity. But your team would probably be pretty poor for a year or two first. You would get sacked, but win trophies later in the file.

To win those trophies later, whilst also doing well enough in the present to stay in a job, is more impressive. This is why in my eyes retiring and recreating doesn't make the trophies null and void, but it cheapens them considerably as you didn't do consistently well enough to stay in It doesn't sound like he's done anything like your hypothetical scenario. Also, remember it's Chelsea, you could get sacked there for wearing the wrong socks. However, this guy's trophy haul doesn't sound very impressive.

[Herbert Fandel]

That's why I called it a hypothetical situation......

It was an exaggeration to show that winning something eventually after being sacked twice isn't as impressive as doing consistently well enough to stay in a job and then winning something, which is the full extent of my point