Stadium Improvement Overlooked AGAIN!

[dafuge]

THANKS buts I think you sort of back up my point... it wasnt until 2054 that they built a stadium to be proud of.... so the question I have for you is.. how much Silverware and cash did you have BEFORE getting this stadium.... did my discription of my Colwyn Bay team mirror your team?

I was managing in Northern Ireland, so success took a bit longer.

Managing in England in a game similar to yours on FM10 I had a 65779 capacity stadium built in 2040, is that the sort of time frame you meant?

[DaveM1965]

I was managing in Northern Ireland, so success took a bit longer.

Managing in England in a game similar to yours on FM10 I had a 65779 capacity stadium built in 2040, is that the sort of time frame you meant?

Last version I think we got to around 2030 but went up to the Premier League VERY quickly ... to be honest FM 12 was too easy .... IMHO

[dafuge]

Last version I think we got to around 2030 but went up to the Premier League VERY quickly ... to be honest FM 12 was too easy .... IMHO

I agree, and that's the big problem. If the club progresses unrealistically quickly (which is possible) then the building of new stadia simply can't catch up.

I'd love to say that the 20 year gap between new stadia should be abolished, but I'd much prefer it if it was much harder to take a club up through the leagues so quickly.

[Lexis]

i gotta say the argument for "there is no football manager who build their own stadium so we dont implement in into the game" is kinda rubbish, show me the football manager who sends scouts to african countrys which name ive never heard before and returns with a couple 4-5 star potential rated players... or as mentioned the finance and fan base raises whenever you win anything, on my poland save i had a 550k year main sponsorship and won the champions league the same year the sponsorship went out, i got contracted a new sponsorship with the new recordsum of 570k a year... like really? thats realistic.

sorry but that post kinda pissed me off

Are you serious? Eto'o ; Essien ; Keita ; Yaya Toure ; Drogba ; Gyan ; Adebayor... shall I go on?

[haunted1234]

if its so clear to you that this is realistic, how come no low reputation league clubs are full of super talented african players who just play for some years and get sold for millions afterwards...

its simply not realistic, iam not saying africa has no talent and stuff, iam saying its unrealistic to sign 10 african players as a small east europe club, train them and sell afterwards for multiple millions, if this would be possible dont you think everyone would be kinda doing it?

[WH]

Maybe something could be done about the minimum term for new stadia when clubs are hugely successful over a short period.

But I think if we start down the road of building our own stadiums in football manager,then we'll be buying cars for the players and decorating their houses before we know it. Thats not a game I want to play.

[Spart]

if its so clear to you that this is realistic, how come no low reputation league clubs are full of super talented african players who just play for some years and get sold for millions afterwards...

its simply not realistic, iam not saying africa has no talent and stuff, iam saying its unrealistic to sign 10 african players as a small east europe club, train them and sell afterwards for multiple millions, if this would be possible dont you think everyone would be kinda doing it?

In the eastern leagues it's pretty common actually such as in Moldova, Ukraine and Romania.

I agree that there should be a tighter focus on geography for lower league teams though. If I'm managing a semi-pro or amateur team in cornwall, I shouldn't really be able to offer a pittance to players from Carlisle, Birmingham or even outside of a decent commuting distance and have players cueing up to play for me, let alone Africa.

[tomtuck01]

How big do you think it'd be if they were building a new stadium from scratch?

I have no idea...........but who was the lat sucessful club to have a new ground built with an 80,000 capacity? Why do you think it should be 80,000?

[davidbowie]

I have no idea...........but who was the lat sucessful club to have a new ground built with an 80,000 capacity? Why do you think it should be 80,000?

When did I say it should be 80,000? You (someone else? IDK) said United don't play at a huge stadium. I said what would they build in size for a new stadium?

Old Trafford has expansion potential up to 90,000 or even 95,000.

[tomtuck01]

When did I say it should be 80,000? You (someone else? IDK) said United don't play at a huge stadium. I said what would they build in size for a new stadium?

Old Trafford has expansion potential up to 90,000 or even 95,000.

I got you mixed up with the OP, whos username is Dave....something or other.

And in FM, i had Old Trafford expanded to 100,000, i would imagin a new Stadium would be built at around that level. In real life i can't imagine it getting expanded again anytime soon as there simply isn't the demand.

[haunted1234]

In the eastern leagues it's pretty common actually such as in Moldova, Ukraine and Romania.

I agree that there should be a tighter focus on geography for lower league teams though. If I'm managing a semi-pro or amateur team in cornwall, I shouldn't really be able to offer a pittance to players from Carlisle, Birmingham or even outside of a decent commuting distance and have players cueing up to play for me, let alone Africa.

sorry for the little of topic talk

but the question is, did these clubs sell any of these africans they got later for millions??

[DaveM1965]

When did I say it should be 80,000? You (someone else? IDK) said United don't play at a huge stadium. I said what would they build in size for a new stadium?

Old Trafford has expansion potential up to 90,000 or even 95,000.

I originally mentioned a 80k+ stadium but if you read through this thread you will see that I admitted that was a bit optimistic... the point I was trying to make is that we had a stadium of less than 20k while being a MAJOR force in football....

[Spart]

sorry for the little of topic talk

but the question is, did these clubs sell any of these africans they got later for millions??

Maybe not multiple millions but they often sell them to the so-called bigger leagues for a healthy profit.

[roversawh7]

It does seem that the game does plan for expansion in some cases. Here is my set of stadium expansions in Chicago which doubled the size of the stadium:

Obviously Chicago has more population than Colwyn Bay, but this size stadium in that period of time is probably unrealistic too.

[NickWJM]

Hi

I have to agree with OP. I have purchased every version of FM and throughout the years its always been advertised as a football simulation where one could take the club of your dreams to champions league glory. So here are my views on some of the comments made so far.

"bear in mind completely unrealistic circumstances (such as a tiny club becoming so successful) make it difficult for the game to handle it realistically. - Neil Brock"... Chelsea 1989 2nd Division.. 16 years later winners of Premier League.. Manchester City 2002 2nd Division.. 10 years later winning Premier League.. Liverpool 1962 2nd Division.... 15 years later European Champions...... How many more examples of small clubs rising through the ranks to dominate domestic and European football do you want?.. Its hard to remember that these clubs were not always the powerhouses they are now. My point is that football is a harsh game and that clubs do come through the ranks to the top just as well as once mighty clubs (like notts forest for example or Rangers) can easily fall.. To say its "unrealistic" sounds like an excuse for just not having the mechanics to handle this sort of event. If some billionaire showed an interest in Colwyn Bay now in real life you can bet within 10 years they would be challenging for the Premiership.

"I don't know of a Football Manager who ever decided, planned and built their own stadium. - Neil Brock" - I wholeheartedly agree. But it’s something that I wish would be handled better in the game. I don’t think many people care for planning and building their own stadium, thats the boards job. But it should be something that is kept realistically up to date. If you are champions league winners time and time again and your still playing in a 12k stadium at 99% capacity every year theres something very wrong. At the end of the day its all about money in football. If the owners can see a money making opportunity like having a bigger stadium to make more money, then they would do it. It wouldnt matter that they built one 5 years ago as long as they could see an obvious return in financial investment. I think the OP's comment about building their own was just one of frustration that the board wont do it for them.

"Just quickly mate what is the population of Colwyn Bay roughly 30000?? even if the catchment area is another 50000 it doesnt really make sense to have a stadium with a capacity of more then 10-15000 maybe 20000 if the community is die hard football fanatics...just a though mate - Kristof1982" - This is a legitimate point. However, I think we have to remember that the most successful clubs attract crowds from all over the country, not just their local catchment area. How many fans of LFC are from Liverpool?.. Man Utd from Manchester etc?.. Now I cant comment on Colwyn Bay but I have recently played as Corby (also a BSN side) and hit exactly the same problem as the OP.. Corby is within a short distance of Nottingham, Leicester, Northampton, and even Birmingham. If this club did become very successful you would see them stealing fans from these other larger clubs.

"It's a game - davidbowie" - definitely agree.. The sponsorship and stadium experience of a lower division side ruins the experience to a degree. I think there has to be some middle ground between the simulation and making it fun to play..

Okay I have got bored adding quotes. But someone else said about the room to build a stadium... Now I may be completely wrong but seriously did SI investigate available space for new stadiums at every club in every nation?.... If so if I play as Plymouth Argyle (my home town) will they be able to get a 80k stadium if I take them to the top.. I mean I know because of their location it could be easily done!.. Im just not convinced this is the issue.

I also find its not just the stadium that is affected.. Sponsorship is also messed up in taking a lower club to the top. Corby as Champions League winners 3-4 times in a row were getting on average 100k a year in sponsorship.. This wasnt just historic sponsorship deals but new ones signed just having won the competitions. Yet teams like Man Utd (who hadnt won the league in years) were getting 40m.. This is totally messed up and must again be tied to what the game feels is the fan base of a club..

As you will see from my post count I really dont often post on forums. But this is something which frustrates me year after year. Unfortunately like many I will keep buying the game.. My last word to the developers is were not just here to trash your game.. Many of us buy it year after year. There are espects in the last version that were a great step forward, like the contract system that made managing your finances as a lower league club a lot harder (which is more realistic and was actually fun).. So take this thread in general as feedback to some of our views on the stadium system for lower level clubs.. A new statium every 30 years isnt enough.... espeically when i get new stadium adding 200 seats to my overall capacity on year 2!. On average I play about 20 seasons and I would suggest thats probably far more than most.. But what do I know!

[BiggusD]

There comes a point in "club mode" where you do win everything every year, and the game experience goes from being about building to rebuilding. The motivation to continue playing is still about progress, though, and that's precisely where the problem with stadium expansion resides. Winning everything isn't enough - the next goals are to become not only the best but the biggest, richest and most highly regarded club in the world. But in FM12, while the former takes only a few years to achieve, the latter three takes between 40 and 60 seasons. Let's say it takes you 5 seasons to get into the Premier League with Colwyn Bay, and then 5 years to win it and Champions League. It will now take you 50 more seasons to reach the latter three goals while winning everything each season, not because it is a challenge to do so but because stadium expansion and fan base growth is linear and there's an arbitrary waiting period of 20 years between new stadiums.

These things aren't difficult for SI to program at all: since AI clubs don't improve (rather the opposite) the coding only applies to the human manager. No this is about will not ability. SI don't want to spend time on this since the focus is on the "career mode" gaming experience, where the customers are supposed to move clubs to climb the hierarchy so no-one is supposed to stay at the same club for 20 seasons. You are supposed to take a club as far as it can go, then move on. You are supposed to care about your career stats, salary and world reputation as well as "achievements" on Steam for winning trophies in so and so many different clubs, leagues and countries.

Well, I couldn't care less about that, and in nearly 20 years of CM/FM I have truly never met anyone who plays the game like that.

[Respected_Boss]

Although SI have to be congratulated on the improvements they have made to FM 2012 I am not happy

As far as I can see SI have not done anything to improve the Stadium bug!

Last year FIVE of my family and friends started as Colwyn Bay and although we took them up to the English Premier League and won Silverware that even Manchester United would be jealous of over a twenty - twenty five year period our stadiums are smaller than most CHAMPIONSHIP clubs!

Football Manager LIVE gave you the power to improve your stadium and this was done very well.

WHY cant SI implement this into the Football Manager series?

Some of you who miss the point of this thread will say its nothing to do with the Manager but if the game engine cant handle it more realistically .. give us the ability to do it!

I had the totally opposite problem, The Durham City chairman decided to build a new stadium when we weren't even filling our current one, plunging us massively in debt. I was not a happy camper.

[DaveM1965]

Hi

I have to agree with OP. I have purchased every version of FM and throughout the years its always been advertised as a football simulation where one could take the club of your dreams to champions league glory. So here are my views on some of the comments made so far.

"bear in mind completely unrealistic circumstances (such as a tiny club becoming so successful) make it difficult for the game to handle it realistically. - Neil Brock"... Chelsea 1989 2nd Division.. 16 years later winners of Premier League.. Manchester City 2002 2nd Division.. 10 years later winning Premier League.. Liverpool 1962 2nd Division.... 15 years later European Champions...... How many more examples of small clubs rising through the ranks to dominate domestic and European football do you want?.. Its hard to remember that these clubs were not always the powerhouses they are now. My point is that football is a harsh game and that clubs do come through the ranks to the top just as well as once mighty clubs (like notts forest for example or Rangers) can easily fall.. To say its "unrealistic" sounds like an excuse for just not having the mechanics to handle this sort of event. If some billionaire showed an interest in Colwyn Bay now in real life you can bet within 10 years they would be challenging for the Premiership.

"I don't know of a Football Manager who ever decided, planned and built their own stadium. - Neil Brock" - I wholeheartedly agree. But it’s something that I wish would be handled better in the game. I don’t think many people care for planning and building their own stadium, thats the boards job. But it should be something that is kept realistically up to date. If you are champions league winners time and time again and your still playing in a 12k stadium at 99% capacity every year theres something very wrong. At the end of the day its all about money in football. If the owners can see a money making opportunity like having a bigger stadium to make more money, then they would do it. It wouldnt matter that they built one 5 years ago as long as they could see an obvious return in financial investment. I think the OP's comment about building their own was just one of frustration that the board wont do it for them.

"Just quickly mate what is the population of Colwyn Bay roughly 30000?? even if the catchment area is another 50000 it doesnt really make sense to have a stadium with a capacity of more then 10-15000 maybe 20000 if the community is die hard football fanatics...just a though mate - Kristof1982" - This is a legitimate point. However, I think we have to remember that the most successful clubs attract crowds from all over the country, not just their local catchment area. How many fans of LFC are from Liverpool?.. Man Utd from Manchester etc?.. Now I cant comment on Colwyn Bay but I have recently played as Corby (also a BSN side) and hit exactly the same problem as the OP.. Corby is within a short distance of Nottingham, Leicester, Northampton, and even Birmingham. If this club did become very successful you would see them stealing fans from these other larger clubs.

"It's a game - davidbowie" - definitely agree.. The sponsorship and stadium experience of a lower division side ruins the experience to a degree. I think there has to be some middle ground between the simulation and making it fun to play..

Okay I have got bored adding quotes. But someone else said about the room to build a stadium... Now I may be completely wrong but seriously did SI investigate available space for new stadiums at every club in every nation?.... If so if I play as Plymouth Argyle (my home town) will they be able to get a 80k stadium if I take them to the top.. I mean I know because of their location it could be easily done!.. Im just not convinced this is the issue.

I also find its not just the stadium that is affected.. Sponsorship is also messed up in taking a lower club to the top. Corby as Champions League winners 3-4 times in a row were getting on average 100k a year in sponsorship.. This wasnt just historic sponsorship deals but new ones signed just having won the competitions. Yet teams like Man Utd (who hadnt won the league in years) were getting 40m.. This is totally messed up and must again be tied to what the game feels is the fan base of a club..

As you will see from my post count I really dont often post on forums. But this is something which frustrates me year after year. Unfortunately like many I will keep buying the game.. My last word to the developers is were not just here to trash your game.. Many of us buy it year after year. There are espects in the last version that were a great step forward, like the contract system that made managing your finances as a lower league club a lot harder (which is more realistic and was actually fun).. So take this thread in general as feedback to some of our views on the stadium system for lower level clubs.. A new statium every 30 years isnt enough.... espeically when i get new stadium adding 200 seats to my overall capacity on year 2!. On average I play about 20 seasons and I would suggest thats probably far more than most.. But what do I know!

I have been waiting for SI to comment on this post for hours now but so far nothing

Having said that only two other members have commented on it

[tomtuck01]

"bear in mind completely unrealistic circumstances (such as a tiny club becoming so successful) make it difficult for the game to handle it realistically. - Neil Brock"... Chelsea 1989 2nd Division.. 16 years later winners of Premier League.. Manchester City 2002 2nd Division.. 10 years later winning Premier League.. Liverpool 1962 2nd Division.... 15 years later European Champions...... How many more examples of small clubs rising through the ranks to dominate domestic and European football do you want?

Small clubs? Are you taking the mick?

[Dave C]

Hi

I have to agree with OP. I have purchased every version of FM and throughout the years its always been advertised as a football simulation where one could take the club of your dreams to champions league glory. So here are my views on some of the comments made so far.

"bear in mind completely unrealistic circumstances (such as a tiny club becoming so successful) make it difficult for the game to handle it realistically. - Neil Brock"... Chelsea 1989 2nd Division.. 16 years later winners of Premier League.. Manchester City 2002 2nd Division.. 10 years later winning Premier League.. Liverpool 1962 2nd Division.... 15 years later European Champions...... How many more examples of small clubs rising through the ranks to dominate domestic and European football do you want?.. Its hard to remember that these clubs were not always the powerhouses they are now. My point is that football is a harsh game and that clubs do come through the ranks to the top just as well as once mighty clubs (like notts forest for example or Rangers) can easily fall.. To say its "unrealistic" sounds like an excuse for just not having the mechanics to handle this sort of event. If some billionaire showed an interest in Colwyn Bay now in real life you can bet within 10 years they would be challenging for the Premiership.

If you've lead off with your killer argument, you are in serious trouble. Chelsea, Man City, Liverpool... why not throw in Man Utd in the Second Division in the 70s?

Not one of those were small clubs. All were large clubs, that were in rough patches. So not remotely applicable. Genuine small clubs that have risen through the ranks? The likes of Wigan and Fulham.

The few recent 'billionaire' takeovers of smaller clubs have ended in disaster. So you'd lose your bet.

"I don't know of a Football Manager who ever decided, planned and built their own stadium. - Neil Brock" - I wholeheartedly agree. But it’s something that I wish would be handled better in the game. I don’t think many people care for planning and building their own stadium, thats the boards job. But it should be something that is kept realistically up to date. If you are champions league winners time and time again and your still playing in a 12k stadium at 99% capacity every year theres something very wrong. At the end of the day its all about money in football. If the owners can see a money making opportunity like having a bigger stadium to make more money, then they would do it. It wouldnt matter that they built one 5 years ago as long as they could see an obvious return in financial investment. I think the OP's comment about building their own was just one of frustration that the board wont do it for them.

Nobody in this thread si saying it cannot be handled better, just that there has to be some sense in the timescales and scope for expansion. The OPs 80,000 demand (which I believe he has backed away from) was ridiculous. Unsupportable. The fundamental problem here isn't with the mechanism for expansion though...

"Just quickly mate what is the population of Colwyn Bay roughly 30000?? even if the catchment area is another 50000 it doesnt really make sense to have a stadium with a capacity of more then 10-15000 maybe 20000 if the community is die hard football fanatics...just a though mate - Kristof1982" - This is a legitimate point. However, I think we have to remember that the most successful clubs attract crowds from all over the country, not just their local catchment area. How many fans of LFC are from Liverpool?.. Man Utd from Manchester etc?.. Now I cant comment on Colwyn Bay but I have recently played as Corby (also a BSN side) and hit exactly the same problem as the OP.. Corby is within a short distance of Nottingham, Leicester, Northampton, and even Birmingham. If this club did become very successful you would see them stealing fans from these other larger clubs.

Birmingham has three large clubs already, so you won't steal that much. Northampton is hardly big. Leicester and Nottingham, also big historically established clubs. Football doesn't operate in a bubble.

Far more attendees at Liverpool and Man Utd matches than you realise are locals. I've been to both, lived in both cities. Yes, Man Utd get little pockets of Asian fans, in the same way Man City now get pockets of Arab fans (who think the club has only existed for five years). But both also have a predominantly local audience *in the ground* because football demographics still haven't changed that much.

"It's a game - davidbowie" - definitely agree.. The sponsorship and stadium experience of a lower division side ruins the experience to a degree. I think there has to be some middle ground between the simulation and making it fun to play..

And if some fool gives themself a massive and unsupportable ground, then financially cripples their club? Won't that ruin the fun?

The mechanisms that underpin expansion are complex, and the user does not (and cannot) have all the relevant data to make the call. So it should stay with the game. Yes, it can be better. But the OP demanding stupid expansion, people asking for us to control it, for new stadia every 10 years or less, that's all rubbish.

Okay I have got bored adding quotes. But someone else said about the room to build a stadium... Now I may be completely wrong but seriously did SI investigate available space for new stadiums at every club in every nation?.... If so if I play as Plymouth Argyle (my home town) will they be able to get a 80k stadium if I take them to the top.. I mean I know because of their location it could be easily done!.. Im just not convinced this is the issue.

The individual club researcher sets the expansion capacity for each ground (as an ex-researcher I know this to be a fact). So it is definitely a factor.

I also find its not just the stadium that is affected.. Sponsorship is also messed up in taking a lower club to the top. Corby as Champions League winners 3-4 times in a row were getting on average 100k a year in sponsorship.. This wasnt just historic sponsorship deals but new ones signed just having won the competitions. Yet teams like Man Utd (who hadnt won the league in years) were getting 40m.. This is totally messed up and must again be tied to what the game feels is the fan base of a club..

The problem here, as is really the case with stadia too, is that the game struggles when you rise too rapidly. So you are always stuck on historic deals, that were made on the basis of you struggling in whatever division you were in when you signed. But reputation of the club is a factor too.

As you will see from my post count I really dont often post on forums. But this is something which frustrates me year after year. Unfortunately like many I will keep buying the game.. My last word to the developers is were not just here to trash your game.. Many of us buy it year after year. There are espects in the last version that were a great step forward, like the contract system that made managing your finances as a lower league club a lot harder (which is more realistic and was actually fun).. So take this thread in general as feedback to some of our views on the stadium system for lower level clubs.. A new statium every 30 years isnt enough.... espeically when i get new stadium adding 200 seats to my overall capacity on year 2!. On average I play about 20 seasons and I would suggest thats probably far more than most.. But what do I know!

I think your feelings are justified, but you are looking for solutions in the wrong places. As I've hopefully explained.

[Dave C]

I have been waiting for SI to comment on this post for hours now but so far nothing

Having said that only two other members have commented on it

It's the weekend? Maybe they have homes and families? Or maybe, as I've outlined in my reply, they don't really feel he's made any significant new arguments that need addressing?

[tottenhamfmo7]

I've had two 'bugged'/failed stadium constructions with my Tottenham team in FM12, my stadium always sells out (except friendlies).. The stadium construction part of the game is so bugged up..

Still stuck in the 36,000 seater stadium called White Hart Lane..

[Dave C]

I've had two 'bugged'/failed stadium constructions with my Tottenham team in FM12, my stadium always sells out (except friendlies).. The stadium construction part of the game is so bugged up..

Still stuck in the 36,000 seater stadium called White Hart Lane..

Pretty sure the RL Tottenham could sympathise. As could Liverpool and Everton.

[BiggusD]

And if some fool gives themself a massive and unsupportable ground, then financially cripples their club? Won't that ruin the fun?

The mechanisms that underpin expansion are complex, and the user does not (and cannot) have all the relevant data to make the call. So it should stay with the game. Yes, it can be better. But the OP demanding stupid expansion, people asking for us to control it, for new stadia every 10 years or less, that's all rubbish.

No it won't ruin the fun. You made a mistake you learned from. In real life, clubs build stadiums for a variety of reasons, but in most cases it is an investment. In FM it is not an investment for the future but a necessity for the present. That is a huge difference because the stadiums that are built in FM do not boost the economy of the clubs that build them, since the cost of setting them up is just as high as the increased revenue from gate receipts. The difference between ground maintenance/loan fees of a 60 000 capacity stadium and one of 45000 are not going to cripple a club's finances, but the difference in net income between a debt-free 30 000 stadium and a new, debt-ridden 45000 stadium is absolutely minimal. What makes sense is therefore to, when you finally build a new stadium, build with overcapacity because those last 15000 seats are going to cost, say, £350m instead of the £300m of a 45000 all-seater. It makes no economical sense to have a calculation that "our current fanbase is 45000 but our stadium is only 30 000 and 20 years old so let's build a 45000 all-seater". The mechanisms that underpin expansion are not complex in FM at all; they are "max attendance attribute is 45000. New stadium size is 45000." No more no less. I have had enough stadiums built to know what is and what is not. If those mechanisms were complex enough we wouldn't have had this problem.

The existing big clubs in the Premier League cannot easily expand their stadiums or build new ones. Fair enough, but the clubs we are speaking of here are not those. We are talking about tiny clubs from lower leagues becoming the best clubs in the world in terms of silverware. There's no real-life counterpart to this because this is a game not real life, and people will always be able to do this and SI knows this. There is therefore no excuse to not have mechanisms in place that make sure that long-term playability for clubs/customers with what is in real-life unprecedented success is much better than today. Simply put, TV-money (except in Spain) is programmed well and is quite flexible so that it manages to follow the success of a club. Fanbase and sponsorship are not programmed that well and does not manage to follow the success of a club properly. As a result of this, making the smallest club in the nation the biggest club in the nation takes only a few seasons in terms of success, and 50 seasons in terms of size. In gaming terms, that is awful.

[DaveM1965]

RE: The OPs 80,000 demand (which I believe he has backed away from) was ridiculous surely we should have a stadium around 80k built....

Sometimes I wonder if members miss the point behind threads ... in the original thread posting I pointed out that "Last year FIVE of my family and friends started as Colwyn Bay and although we took them up to the English Premier League and won Silverware that even Manchester United would be jealous of over a twenty - twenty five year period our stadiums are smaller than most CHAMPIONSHIP clubs!" Later I mentioned that my stadium was smaller than 20k and I thought that we should have a stadium of around 80k...

This game is referred to as a Football Simulation and therefore when I take a club like Colwyn Bay to a MEGA rich and MEGA successful club I should have a stadium of much greater size.... and to be honest if my club is MEGA rich and MEGA successful AND filling my stadium week in week out then it should be possible to get a VERY LARGE stadium within a much shorter time frame.... to say a new stadium is only going to be built every 20 to 30 years is unrealistic!

[Dave C]

No it won't ruin the fun. You made a mistake you learned from.

Hmmm. I suspect the forums would rapidly fill with people complaining about it, but we'll never know.

In real life, clubs build stadiums for a variety of reasons, but in most cases it is an investment. In FM it is not an investment for the future but a necessity for the present. That is a huge difference because the stadiums that are built in FM do not boost the economy of the clubs that build them, since the cost of setting them up is just as high as the increased revenue from gate receipts. The difference between ground maintenance/loan fees of a 60 000 capacity stadium and one of 45000 are not going to cripple a club's finances, but the difference in net income between a debt-free 30 000 stadium and a new, debt-ridden 45000 stadium is absolutely minimal. What makes sense is therefore to, when you finally build a new stadium, build with overcapacity because those last 15000 seats are going to cost, say, £350m instead of the £300m of a 45000 all-seater. It makes no economical sense to have a calculation that "our current fanbase is 45000 but our stadium is only 30 000 and 20 years old so let's build a 45000 all-seater". The mechanisms that underpin expansion are not complex in FM at all; they are "max attendance attribute is 45000. New stadium size is 45000." No more no less. I have had enough stadiums built to know what is and what is not. If those mechanisms were complex enough we wouldn't have had this problem.

Firstly, it's really pointless trying to compare this to reality. As I've frequently said, the real problem here is how quickly we can rise a club. But anyway...

Clubs build as an investment, but often with no substantial capacity increase. Most are looking to reduce overheads on decaying stadia, and open up new uses within the stadia to bring more commercial revenue in. It's actually relatively few that invest in capacity, and they are extant large clubs.

That extra 15,000 in your example *can* cripple a club, and there are real-life examples like Darlington who have nearly destroyed their club by building a stadium they couldn't fill. So if you increase build cost, increase debt, and increase maintenance, without really getting an increase in income through increased attendances, you will cause substantial problems.

Interestingly, many clubs have built conservatively because they would rather create demand, increase prices, and try sell-out season tickets to give them working capital. They're far less interested in 'on the day' custom.

The existing big clubs in the Premier League cannot easily expand their stadiums or build new ones. Fair enough, but the clubs we are speaking of here are not those. We are talking about tiny clubs from lower leagues becoming the best clubs in the world in terms of silverware. There's no real-life counterpart to this because this is a game not real life, and people will always be able to do this and SI knows this. There is therefore no excuse to not have mechanisms in place that make sure that long-term playability for clubs/customers with what is in real-life unprecedented success is much better than today. Simply put, TV-money (except in Spain) is programmed well and is quite flexible so that it manages to follow the success of a club. Fanbase and sponsorship are not programmed that well and does not manage to follow the success of a club properly. As a result of this, making the smallest club in the nation the biggest club in the nation takes only a few seasons in terms of success, and 50 seasons in terms of size. In gaming terms, that is awful.

I'm all for having the game respond to long-term success, but it has to be balanced out to not risk crippling the club. As I've said in this thread, it does need work. But there have been some ridiculous requests.

[Dave C]

RE: The OPs 80,000 demand (which I believe he has backed away from) was ridiculous surely we should have a stadium around 80k built....

Sometimes I wonder if members miss the point behind threads ... in the original thread posting I pointed out that "Last year FIVE of my family and friends started as Colwyn Bay and although we took them up to the English Premier League and won Silverware that even Manchester United would be jealous of over a twenty - twenty five year period our stadiums are smaller than most CHAMPIONSHIP clubs!" Later I mentioned that my stadium was smaller than 20k and I thought that we should have a stadium of around 80k...

This game is referred to as a Football Simulation and therefore when I take a club like Colwyn Bay to a MEGA rich and MEGA successful club I should have a stadium of much greater size.... and to be honest if my club is MEGA rich and MEGA successful AND filling my stadium week in week out then it should be possible to get a VERY LARGE stadium within a much shorter time frame.... to say a new stadium is only going to be built every 20 to 30 years is unrealistic!

If the game was a proper simulation, what you achieve would be impossible, and this thread wouldn't exist...

It's not unrealistic to say a new stadium is only built after 20 seasons, in fact most clubs have only had 1 or 2, maybe 3, stadia over a century. But then, we're talking about unrealistic achievments. As I said, the game should build in that any new stadium should be capable of reaching 45-50k capacity, enacted conservatively over long-term games.

I didn't miss the point, nor did anyone else. But if you will pick one line out of context, you'll just upset yourself.

[Kenco]

If SI were to reduce the 20 year wait or get rid of it, then any club which goes through a good spell will get a massive new stadium which could then cripple them financially if they slip back down the leagues. Every club that gets promoted to the Premier League will autmatically build a new stadium straight away and everybody will be on the forums complaining about how unrealistic it is.

They have to draw a line somewhere and 20 years is a pretty reasonable place to draw it.

[BiggusD]

If SI were to reduce the 20 year wait or get rid of it, then any club which goes through a good spell will get a massive new stadium which could then cripple them financially if they slip back down the leagues. Every club that gets promoted to the Premier League will autmatically build a new stadium straight away and everybody will be on the forums complaining about how unrealistic it is.

They have to draw a line somewhere and 20 years is a pretty reasonable place to draw it.

That's one bad design covering up another then. The decision to build a new stadium must be based on models of the club's future economy with and without one. The possibility to build a new stadium must be based on existing opportunities and limitations. The whole point of building a new, bigger and prettier stadium is to improve the club's finances in the future - everything else is either bonus or peripheral, with the exception of those clubs with stadiums not fulfilling regulations of the league they are playing in.

You don't build a new stadium because you are so rich you can afford one. You build a new stadium because you want to become so rich that you can afford one. ... or they are given to you by rich people. Because, you know, when you have £500m in the bank you don't -need- a new stadium anymore. It is just another trophy.

[mkstatto]

No chance, I don't know of a Football Manager who ever decided, planned and built their own stadium. I'd suggest posting in the bugs forum and providing save games if you think the lack of expansion is a bug, but bear in mind completely unrealistic circumstances (such as a tiny club becoming so successful) make it difficult for the game to handle it realistically.

Arsene Wenger had very much impact in the building of the Emirates in terms of design and if they should build it.

[Kenco]

That's one bad design covering up another then. The decision to build a new stadium must be based on models of the club's future economy with and without one. The possibility to build a new stadium must be based on existing opportunities and limitations. The whole point of building a new, bigger and prettier stadium is to improve the club's finances in the future - everything else is either bonus or peripheral, with the exception of those clubs with stadiums not fulfilling regulations of the league they are playing in.

You don't build a new stadium because you are so rich you can afford one. You build a new stadium because you want to become so rich that you can afford one. ... or they are given to you by rich people. Because, you know, when you have £500m in the bank you don't -need- a new stadium anymore. It is just another trophy.

Surely every club has this ambition, so are you suggesting every club builds a new stadium?

[BiggusD]

Surely every club has this ambition, so are you suggesting every club builds a new stadium?

Not every club would have the same prospects of fanbase development.

[Lawlore]

If the game was a pper simulation, what you achieve would be impossible, and this thread wouldn't exist...

It's not unrealistic to say a new stadium is only built after 20 seasons, in fact most clubs have only had 1 or 2, maybe 3, stadia over a century. But then, we're talking about unrealistic achievments. As I said, the game should build in that any new stadium should be capable of reaching 45-50k capacity, enacted conservatively over long-term games.

This, times 1000. You and your friends cannot happily accept this kind of success with such a minor team, and then complain that the game is unrealistic.

[davidbowie]

This, times 1000. You and your friends cannot happily accept this kind of success with such a minor team, and then complain that the game is unrealistic.

Maybe we should make it super-realistic and force everyone to get real-life coaching badges before being able to manage anyone.

It's a game. The simulation (which is a poor simulation tbh) side of the game should be in certain places made secondary to the purposes of making a fun game to play. This is one of those situations.