TAV2

Game feels fixed thread!

106 posts in this topic

Finished my 9th season after moving to Dortmund in November time. I got them playing football again and got them moving up the league in style. Everything was going well but of course my presence in the league didnt go unnoticed!

Fc Bayern - 81 points (Largest Points total over the 9 years)

Stuttgart - 79 points (Would of won the league every single other year)

Would love to hear peoples thoughts about this. Mine have already been said to death in the above posts :D

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This is something that I am currently monitoring on my save, before I became a genuine title contender in Germany 75 points would have been good enough to win 11 out of the previous 18 seasons with the highest ever points total being 85 & the lowest 63, in the last 5 seasons the second place team has finished on 79, 75, 79, 83 & 78.

Goal difference has seen a similar increase with a GD of +40 being par for the title winners & runners-up in those first 17 seasons, all of a sudden with my team hitting +60 or more the runners-up are matching my GD.

Part of this will be down to the fact that after I took up a job in Germany (13 seasons ago) I changed the processing to full detail & I accept that it is part of a leagues natural evolution that if a team smashes all previous records the rest will be forced to improve but it is the frequency of these improvements & how quickly it happens that has always concerned me.

The real test is going to be when I leave my current job & move to another nation, this time the full detail aspect will not apply as I've been running the top 2 divisions of every nation in full detail for the last 10 seasons, it will be interesting to see if the benchmark in Germany drops & the one in whatever nation I moved to rises.

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My thoughts are that you're in cloud cuckoo land:) I suppose it's possible that your trampling over a lot of teams affects their morale to the extent that a couple of others get an easier ride but I'm not sure how you could even start to analyse that hypothesis.

I do know that there's no mechanism in the game to deliberately create the effect you describe so you have to look elsewhere for causation.

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Which is why I want to see what the numbers are over 20+ seasons & in a minimum of 3 nations.

My initial thoughts are as you say that my dominance is causing a widening of the gap between top & bottom which in turn makes it easier for a few of the other larger clubs, the other factor is a change to full detail processing which again can see an increase in performance at the top end as the difference in player talent is greater than the difference in reputation.

There is always risk of memory being selective but I have always had the sense that to achieve success in any league you have to more often that not exceed or at a minimum match the highest levels of performance seen in the history of that league.

Edit: Realised that Kriss wasn't replying to my post.

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I can accept that there is maybe no mechanism that intentionally does this, the fact is though i have played in 4 different nations now over 9 seasons and the points totals are always greater when im in the league. Real just won their first league title in my game with 80 points. That is a shocking amount! I believe the results are processed differently somehow when the user is in a league to another league running in the game.

Thank you Barside for also having an interest in this. Its horrible thinking that its just me this was happening to.

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TAV2, as I've mentioned in my post one of the main aspects that will throw out weird looking season totals is how the league is processed.

If you leave match processing to 'default' it will only processes competition you're entered in at full detail, every other competition will be sim'd which will add to the false sense that the AI is automatically upping its game when you turn up.

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Man Utd- started in the first season, the points totals of the top three have been:

2011-12 1st. Man Utd 101, 2nd. Arsenal 83, 3rd. Liverpool 81

2012-13 1st. Man Utd 95, 2nd. Man City 86, 3rd. Arsenal 80

2013-14 1st. Man Utd 102, 2nd. Spurs 83, 3rd. Arsenal 80

2014-15 1st. Man Utd 98, 2nd. Man City 81, 3rd. Liverpool 79

2015-16 1st. Man Utd 102, 2nd. Man City 83, 3rd. Spurs 73

2016-17 1st. Man Utd 97, 2nd. Man City 93, 3rd. Chelsea 80 (The only close season)

2017-18 1st. Man Utd 96, 2nd. Man City 83, 3rd. Chelsea 80

Barside- Here in arguing his point shows yours to be valid. The points totals he achieved is in fantasy land compared to actuall totals in real life. I agree with you that if you want to win something in this game, more times than not, you have to do it with legendary style.

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What you might want to check to see if its happening is if the other "dominating" team has a fixture list that follows yours - ie they play the same team the week after you beat them.

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I can understand what you are saying with the processing of competitions. I never change this from the normal settings that come with the game and it makes sense that its less accurate in other leagues.

At first i thought it was something SI implemented to make the game more exciting for the user. Having a challenger who can make you sweat and make you work for every title. Now i can see its nothing more than accidental programing that has caused this effect to happen.

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What you might want to check to see if its happening is if the other "dominating" team has a fixture list that follows yours - ie they play the same team the week after you beat them.

This is something I am tracking. What I'm interested in is if when there is a surprise contender is it because they always play the same side after you do.

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Just looked at Palermo's season when they were right up there with me and there fixtures pretty much followed mine. They even beat me 1-0 at San Siro without having a shot in the 3rd league game. Their morale would of been sky high and they would of been playing teams who have just been destroyed by 5+ goals only a week or two before by me. My presence in the league playing great football seems to cause a crazy shift in morale.

Why didnt opposing managers seeing how well my team was playing not use the 'go out and play with no pressure' to help maintain morale? :)

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Yeah the game's really good now ... the last patches fixed most bugs! even played a network game and I took tottenham my mate arsenal and we both fought with each the title (he had 92pts I had 91pts) and man utd 82pts however they were there till the 35th match day!! they dropped form because they focused on the FA cup and CL where they beat my mate 3-0 agg in the semis and I got beat by barcelona! 6-4agg I won the league cup and my mate the FA cup...

when playing by myself yeah the AI is very challenging.. when I took dortmund won the league by 17pts and won german cup but lost super cup and CL 1/4 finals vs Inter 2-2agg (lost on away goals) the morale seems to be way better now even with lowest manager reputation well done SI ... still corner cheat occurs but I don't use it so doesn't affect me. Hope next patch might fix some issues I get with fixtures congestion but thats nothing major to be honest!

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Im going to post the lowest winning four points totals in the four leagues i have played in. This is over the 9 seasons i have played so far. I know people are going to say I need to do more seasons but please just humour me. What im trying to find out is would it be possible for a User to win the title with these totals. If anyone has please let me know. Got a feeling we have to work a little bit harder than the AI.

The Premier League - 79 points

Bundesliga - 67 points

Seria A - 73 points

Liga BBVA - 80 points

Starting to believe the game is alot less accurate at producing results when the User is not in the comeptition. This leads to more random results that are in turn are more life like. Where as with the User in the league its more to do with teams attributes and ability. Of course these are values out of 20 and not dynamic like real life which an infinite amount of factors are involved in every result.

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My thoughts are that you're in cloud cuckoo land:)

I agree wholeheartedly with this.

This whole thing smacks of a conspiracy theory concoted by the OP because the game isn't as easy as he'd like. Paranoid doesn't begin to describe it.

Atleast he has now withdrawn the wild accusation that this, (whatever this is meant to be), is something deliberately done by SI.

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Im going to post the lowest winning four points totals in the four leagues i have played in. This is over the 9 seasons i have played so far. I know people are going to say I need to do more seasons but please just humour me. What im trying to find out is would it be possible for a User to win the title with these totals. If anyone has please let me know. Got a feeling we have to work a little bit harder than the AI.

The Premier League - 79 points

Bundesliga - 67 points

Seria A - 73 points

Liga BBVA - 80 points

Starting to believe the game is alot less accurate at producing results when the User is not in the comeptition. This leads to more random results that are in turn are more life like. Where as with the User in the league its more to do with teams attributes and ability. Of course these are values out of 20 and not dynamic like real life which an infinite amount of factors are involved in every result.

It's not necessarily down to the user being in the competition, but whether the competition is played on full detail or not. As you seemed to agree with earlier on today, but now seem to have forgotten about.

Your findings won't prove anything unless you ensure the other variables remain constant.

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tomtuck01- Im just trying to figure out why these results keep coming about. The title of the thread is 'Game Feels Fixed' and now after help from Barside and a few others i have an explanation that goes a long way to explain why this is happening on my save. It still could be complete cooincidence that the points totals are always larger when im in the league. I accept that.

Your also saying this i want this game to be easier? I have never once said that, in fact i wish it was harder. I win the title every year no matter what team i am. This thread is not about the game being too easy or hard its about how results for AI teams are generated. It would be helpfull next time if you read the thread before posting in it. Go back and play the game we BOTH love. Numpty

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It's not necessarily down to the user being in the competition, but whether the competition is played on full detail or not. As you seemed to agree with earlier on today, but now seem to have forgotten about.

Your findings won't prove anything unless you ensure the other variables remain constant.

Totally agree with you. It would be impossible to figure this out properly because of the full detail. These were all points totals from AI teams on default settings. I made a mistake here thinking we can compare the both. Thanks for making that clear.

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Well, I've always said that FM gives team morale too much influence. Basically it's simple - winning increases morale and losing decreases. But it's very often so important that teams in a winning streak just continue winning and losing teams just continue losing. Player in-game motivation also has great influence to player performances and it's impossible to get your players motivated when they have poor morale. More likely they are nervous, or worse - playing without confidence.

Smaller team with worse player selection is more likely to win against big team in a slump.

I know it makes sense on some level, but on the other hand I seriously think that by evaluating morale above everything else, player attributes, experience and tactics are too overlooked and diminished.

If you start the season, it's most important to get a good start and be in top position after 4-5 games. If you lose games and points in early stages, it's very difficult to come back and take a lead again, because firstly you lose this possible morale-edge that you could have had by winning your first games in a row, and secondly - probably some other team has it.

In my saves I've seen both cases of that. If I'll drop to 2nd-3rd and start chasing, it's impossible that leader loses points anywhere. Rare draw here and there perhaps, but not a chance that they'd lose twice in a row after big winning streak.

On the other hand, I've seen cases when I'm leading the table and am on a good run and 2nd place team is also having a great run, similar to mine, until we both meet each other. This kind of proves for me that winning streaks are not connected to league position (= game is not scripted per se, as OP describes), but just because this morale influence team with good streaks (and, of course, poor streaks too) are more likely to continue this way and prolong their streaks, whatever direction they're heading then.

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It's an interesting idea, as I have experienced something similar, however I managed to hold them off and was more glad I had the competition in the final few games of the season. In my save, United went on a 19 game winning streak (beating my own record at the same time, the ********). When I left to manage elsewhere, their points dropped considerably. I don't see it as particularly unrealistic though, Uniteds form in real life until the last couple of games was hardly dissimilar. Do you think they would have accumulated as many points IRL if they didn't have City up there to compete with?

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Im not sure if they would have if City wasnt there. They are a young team with a lot of new players who arent seasoned title campaigners. What they have though is the best manager in the world who knows the league better than anyone else. Ferguson saw how well City were playing at the start and began giving the inspirational team talks and giving his young team believe that Man U could do it all over again. So yeah i believe Man u got this many points this year because their rivals were up there challenging.

I would like to add my thoughts about the subject of this thread has changed since my OP. If people read through it they will see i am no longer calling fowl play by SI's programmers but in fact its just a by product of the morale systems control on the game.

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Im am certain there is some kind of script there, but how else will they make the game?

Alot of the other teams around you (same league) will have a certain link with what you are doing. Im am pretty certain of this as i have found atleast 1 way to manipulate the league myself. Depending on what you say in the press confrences will have a huge effect on the other teams around you just as much as it has an effect on you, whether you are playing the team in your next match or not. As i said 1 way i know this for sure is this..... At the start of the season you will get asked by the press which team you think will win the league. now if you have been tipped to struggle what you can do is tell the press the team you think will win the league would be your closest contender tipped to struggle along side you(something no sane manager would do, but it has a huge effect i have found.

Now lets say you go against the odds and instead of struggling you end up roaring up the table, what you will start to notice is that the top teams seem to really struggle and have some weird season but you will also notice this, the struggling team that you tipped to win the title is also have a great season.

In essence what you are doing when asked this question by the media is shaping the table depending on your own success, the success you have will have a massive effect on the other teams around you. You might say well this is realistic to some extent but to make my point clearer as an example lets say Wolves some how instead of struggling they ended up having a great season IRL, would this mean that man united will have one of there worst seasons in recent history? short answer is No, but on FM from what i found (with media manipulation) its quite the opposite.

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tomtuck01- Im just trying to figure out why these results keep coming about. The title of the thread is 'Game Feels Fixed' and now after help from Barside and a few others i have an explanation that goes a long way to explain why this is happening on my save. It still could be complete cooincidence that the points totals are always larger when im in the league. I accept that.

Your also saying this i want this game to be easier? I have never once said that, in fact i wish it was harder. I win the title every year no matter what team i am. This thread is not about the game being too easy or hard its about how results for AI teams are generated. It would be helpfull next time if you read the thread before posting in it. Go back and play the game we BOTH love. Numpty

I really don't think there was need for name calling. It's very childish.

And if you are winning the title every year at whatever club you play at and want it to be more difficult, then I recommend you not play with the top teams.

In all fairness, I don't think you are actually moaning about wanting the game to be easier, that is simply how it has come across at times. However, I don't believe your theory, and I won't without more testing.

For starters, I'll show some stats from my career thus far. The leagues I will show are the two that I have managed in and won; the Blue Square Bet Premier and the Barclays Premier League.

Blue Square Bet Premier

2011/12 - Champions; Wrexham 90pts Runners Up; Stockport 90pts - Wrexham were promoted on goal difference

2012/13 - Champions; Boston United (Me) 104pts Runners Up; Luton Town 89pts

2013/14 - Champions; Luton Town 89pts Runners Up; Cambridge United 82pts

2014/15 - Champions; Burton Albion 89pts Runners Up; Cambridge United 86pts

2015/16 - Champions; Mansfield Town 83pts Runners Up; Aldershot Town 83pts - Mansfield Town promoted on goal difference

2016/17 - Champions; Colwyn Bay 87pts Runners Up; Newport County 83pts

2017/18 - Champions; Bromley 84pts Runners Up; Boston United 83pts

As you can see, the other sides didn't raise their game when I was in the league. The amount of points needed to win the league has been around 89pts (give or take a couple of points either way), in four of the other six seasons that I wasn't managing in that league, the same amount of points that the second placed side achieved in my season in that division.

Other teams raising their game? No.

Barclays Premier League

2011/12 - Champions; Man United 80pts Runners Up; Liverpool 80pts - United won on goals scored

2012/13 - Champions; Man United 82pts Runners Up; Arsenal 70pts

2013/14 - Champions; Tottenham 81pts Runners Up; Liverpool 79pts - I, (Swansea), finished 6th with 68pts

2014/15 - Champions; Man United 91pts Runners Up; Man City 89pts - I, (Swansea), finished 3rd with 86pts

2015/16 - Champions; Swanea (Me) 85pts Runners Up; Man United 80pts

2016/17 - Champions; Swansea (Me) 94pts Runners Up; Man City 85pts

2017/18 - Champions; Arsenal 83pts Runners Up; Tottenham 76pts

I don't think the other teams raised their game too much when I was in the league. In two of my four seasons, a points total in the early 80's would have been enough to win the title, as was the case in the the three seasons I wasn't managing in the league. In the 2016/17 season a tally of just 86pts would have won the title, so in that season the other teams only raised their game marginally. The only season that was a bit crazy was the 2014/15 season.

Please draw your own conclusions.

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Please draw your own conclusions.

3 days and not a conclusion, i think we can safely speculate the reasoning behind that.

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In my second season as Arsenal the title went to the last game. I was 1 point behind Man Utd, they were playing away at Chelsea, I was away at Everton...

They were getting beaten 3-0 after 60 mins, I was winning 2-1, all was looking good, we were dominating the game, missed 2 or 3 sitters, was thinking it was only a matter of time before we scored again.

(Everton scored with their one and only shot up to this point).

At around 70 mins, we missed a penalty. 75 mins we missed another sitter.

88 mins Everton equalise. No major worries, we were ahead on goal difference over Utd, still on for winning the league.

5 defenders on the pitch, packed the midfield, left solo striker up top.

91 mins we miss another sitter.

93 mins Rodwell scores from 35 yards out.

94 mins I shoot myself in the head.

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3 days and not a conclusion, i think we can safely speculate the reasoning behind that.

I am still waiting to start part 2 of my analysis, I am not going to deviate from my normal playing style to rush things as that will take away the enjoyment from my save & could lead to an unintentional bias in my findings.

What I would like to know is if the season standings tomtuck01 posted were all calculated in full detail or if they were downgraded to being sim'd when he was not in the division.

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All analysis will always be influenced by perhaps the most important and central element in FM: The reputation system.

I can and have elaborated more, but sometimes I think doing so in too much detail, can somewhat remove any "mystique" the game has.

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I have a 10 year save (too slow to play due to add/remove league issue) and the point tallies do seem slightly too high on average. It is probably a good thing though as we all want a competitive game don't we? After looking through my save and at actual tables from since the prem started I think the only issue really is there are not enough low point seasons. It always seem to take 90ish points in game but irl that figure is less likely to be required. Below is a screenshot of a higher scoring season and that is fine as it is only one season out of ten. I would like to see some years have a tighter and lower scoring points spread at the top though.

I have not been through all the records but the table below would beat any real life figures I would expect: The highest 3rd place finish I found was 2008/09 which had

1st-90 2nd-86 3rd-83

Not once has a team failed to win the league with 90+points and not once has a team reached 100points. I think Chelsea hold the record with 95pts. To summarise I don't believe there is any great problem but judging from my save the averages are slightly higher than real life. That is just one save though.

EDIT - Just checked back 10 years and the highest 5th place finish is 67points below it is 10 points higher with 77pts.

englishpremierdivisionoi.png"]englishpremierdivisionoi.png[/url]

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With this possible issue there are 3 points people should be looking at;

  1. How do the point totals compare between a sample of league seasons processed in full detail & none?
  2. How do the totals compare from before you entered the division to after?
  3. Has there been a drop in points since you left the division?

Without the comparative before/during/after data any lists of league tables & point totals are purely speculative.

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Early indications are that they may well be some merit to the idea that there is an element of tethering, my current season is very telling

Just about to reach the winter break & my slump on previous seasons is not harming me as much as I thought

germanfirstdivisionover.png

germanfirstdivisionoverv.png

germanfirstdivisionoverq.png

germanfirstdivisionoverb.png

This may well be all due to an unusually competitive season but the drop in goals scored is rather coincidental, not that I'm complaining as it is helping through a rather tough patch.

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3 days and not a conclusion, i think we can safely speculate the reasoning behind that.

Hahaha devastatingly brilliant post in my humble opinion.

What I would like to know is if the season standings tomtuck01 posted were all calculated in full detail or if they were downgraded to being sim'd when he was not in the division.

All full detail, not that I expect to be believed.

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All full detail, not that I expect to be believed.

I have no reason not to believe you, I trust that you'll extend the same courtesy when I post my mid-point findings later this week.

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I have no reason not to believe you, I trust that you'll extend the same courtesy when I post my mid-point findings later this week.

I was more meaning the OP to be honest, not yourself. :thup:

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I dont even believe your name is tom :D

Be that as it may, i'm not all surprised that you haven't made any reference to my findings, seen as they basically **** all over your "game feels fixed" nonsense.

Shock and horror!

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Iv got findings too that seem to show the opposite of what you think! I moved leagues/countries FOUR times and every time the points totals have increased. This is over 9 seasons and more than that iv stated what i now believe to be true. The OP is the OP. Things have evolved as the thread and time as gone along.

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It's not what i think, it's what i have "proved" using the same limited research as you.

Basically you are just plain wrong, but rather than admitting it you are giving a vague nonsensical response that means even less than youre original "findings".

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Whats your probelm buddy? Iv said above many times now i no longer think its an intentional mechanism in the game. I have shown though that when I am managing in a country the points totals for that competition go up. When i leave they go back down. I have said above YET AGAIN that i now believe it to be down to the way results are processed when in full detail compared to being on default. All you have done is manage in the same nation and got consistantly high points totals. That is because you have it in full detail. Move countries then your results will mean something!

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You both have data that shows a different set of result, as things stand neither of you are right or wrong.

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It's not what i think, it's what i have "proved" using the same limited research as you.

Basically you are just plain wrong, but rather than admitting it you are giving a vague nonsensical response that means even less than youre original "findings".

Exactly, you can't prove anything with limited research, thats not how the world works. I don't think anyone has anywhere near enough data to give definitive proof.

Is the game fixed? Not in my opinion. Do opposition AI teams raise there game when the user is very successful? I don't know but there are occasions when it feels like that but that is a good thing if it is the case. If I am dominating a top league I want to see the other sides spending money to improve and bridge the gap otherwise it will get dull very quickly.

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Exactly, you can't prove anything with limited research, thats not how the world works. I don't think anyone has anywhere near enough data to give definitive proof.

Thank you for engaging your brain and understanding what point i was making. :thup:

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hahaha its funny how people have nothing to do! :D this game is awesome who cares about testing? its not your job its SI's ..they did a good job till now

leave it to them

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hahaha its funny how people have nothing to do! :D this game is awesome who cares about testing? its not your job its SI's ..they did a good job till now

leave it to them

If the public didn't give feedback or even do some small scale testing of their own the development of the game would stall, the input offered by the wider community is essential.

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feedback yes you are completely right but the testing that we can do will not help because we only can use limited research, their programmers have much more sophisticated softwares to do that...i bet they know already everything being mentioned above dont you think?

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User input is highly valued even if the way they produce stats isn't scientific, peoples perceptions are sometimes as important as the facts.

If there is an anomaly along these lines I've never seen it mentioned before and have certainly never seen a test run on the subject.

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Interesting numbers for the season that I've just completed, my team were 7.8 points & 27.8 goals down on our recent (previous 5 seasons) average, oddly enough every other team in title contention had a similar drop in points/goals when compared to their recent average so I still managed to win the league title.

Seeing everyone fall way short of their normal goalscoring exploits is certainly odd.

Edit: I guess what I should do is replay the season in the hope that we put in our usual 3 goal a game average & see if another club or two keep pace, might revisit the season once I'm done with the Leipzig job.

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User input is highly valued even if the way they produce stats isn't scientific, peoples perceptions are sometimes as important as the facts.

If there is an anomaly along these lines I've never seen it mentioned before and have certainly never seen a test run on the subject.

Yes I think the important word in the thread title is "feels".

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i can say... that the crazyness happened in my first season, and it was more normal in the second, with the team competing for the title with me finishing with a lower total then previously.

only oddity this season so far is newcastle beating chelsea 8-1

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Some interesting developments in the Bundesliga following my resignation from RB Leipzig.

I left the club after winning 10 straight league titles, during those 10 seasons the second placed team achieved the following point totals; 79(79), 75(89), 79(85), 83(87), 78(84), 75(77), 65(75), 70(82), 76(81) & 71(79), numbers in brackets are the winning point totals.

In the 3 years since I left my replacement has kept the squad largely unchanged & has won 2 league titles, 1 German cup, 1 Champions League & a CWC so he's a fairly decent manager. In the league the runners-up so far have finished on 69(83), 67(70 - HSV) & 66(85).

Now it is of course early days & the only fair comparison will be one made over a decade but the early indications are that the presence of a dominant user controlled team may well be lifting the performances of other teams in the league to a greater extent than a dominant AI controlled team or when there is no user controlled team in the league.

I have also considered the FC Bayern factor as prior to Leipzig's emergence as a domestic force they were the team to beat, during my 10 year run they were runners-up 5 times & consistently scored between 65-75 points, since my departure they have struggled finishing 4th twice & 12th last season.

Unfortunately I have not managed long enough in a league that has previously been set to full detail processing so I'm unable to assess what impact my arrival has had on leagues that I have since managed in.

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I noticed before - no matter how well I do that there's always a team right behind me in the league.

I could have 105 points and there will be a team right behind me.

Next season I might have 92 points and there is a team right around me too.

I could go the whole season without losing and there will be a team that has drawn just one game.

Ive found that with most FM releases to be fair. Is it not just a version of so called "rubber band physics" that appear in racing games? Idea being to make it more interesting.

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