Koki

12.2 regens from inactive nations - how is the situation now?

148 posts in this topic

BTW just to be clear i wasnt having a go, just a question :)

I dont think it works from population as such, but the game has to create players in order to make the game world work. Hopefully they have toned it down a bit so not as many top players come from these nations, but not so much as they eliminate them altogether.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
BTW just to be clear i wasnt having a go, just a question :)

Oh, I know. :) My writing style often comes off as angry but it's just because I was trained to write in the context of cutthroat arguments. I should probably work on that...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Oh, I know. :) My writing style often comes off as angry but it's just because I was trained to write in the context of cutthroat arguments. I should probably work on that...

I know the feeling, i seem to rub most up the wrong way on here!! hahaha

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

has someone a fix for the youth rating file and can upload it?That would be nice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Except, again, the effect of junior coaching and youth facilities is minimal, scouting and youth recruitment mean top regens don't need to rely on their own nations' facilities and, even if they stay in their own country, regens from inactive nations are designed to show up far more developed than active nation regens anyway. Consequently, the current system doesn't really work as intended and to get realistic regen results, you need to adjust youth ratings to reflect a nation's historical youth output.

The impact of junior coaching and facilities ratings are not really as small as you think. However, are coaching and facilities ratings for clubs at levels that they should be based on history and predicted future? Perhaps not all of them.

For your purposes, altering the nation youth rating is quicker to adjust (in comparison to adjusting individual clubs' coaching/facilities) and gets you what you want immediately. So go for it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
That is only if you have MLS active though. If not, the US gets a nearly English-quality set of regens each year.

And why not? England produces lots of players; not so many good or great players. Look at international results from the last couple of decades. England is vastly overrated.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
And why not? England produces lots of players; not so many good or great players. Look at international results from the last couple of decades. England is vastly overrated.

But in terms of international results, England outperforms the US, and with the exception of keepers, they still produce more good or great players than the US. Which US players in the last 10 years are comparable to Rooney, Gerrard and Lampard? Which young US players players are currently comparable to Wilshere, Chamberlain, Sturridge, Phil Jones, Welbeck or even Scott Sinclair? The top US "young" player at the moment (Brek Shea) is already 22 and evidently wasn't able to impress any English sides when he trained at Arsenal all summer. Now, I'm not saying the US doesn't produce any good non-keepers. Donovan and Dempsey are both vastly underrated, IMO, but outside them and Howard, the US national team looks like a League One side.

And even if you argue that England is overrated in-game, then compare US to the Netherlands. Where is the American Cruyff? Arjen Robben? Van Persie?

I'm not saying they can't exist, but it's extremely unlikely that the US is going to be outperforming England and Holland in youth output starting this year which is basically a hard-coded guarantee with the current youth ratings.

And comparing international results does distort the picture somewhat since almost any significantly populated nation can put together a solid starting XI and compete with big teams just as a club like Swansea is sometimes able to earn a result against Man City. That's the beauty of football. Fill out 4 clubs with the best US players and 4 with the best English players and tell me which group you think would fare better long-term in a league format.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well im now 21 seasons in, the USA have not broken into the top 25 yet, England have sat around 5th for a while.......

I have found about 3 American players (last night was a huge player search night) you would class as good enough to play for the top teams, no more. Its not a hard coded guarantee at all as far as my game has gone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not saying they can't exist, but it's extremely unlikely that the US is going to be outperforming England and Holland in youth output starting this year which is basically a hard-coded guarantee with the current youth ratings.

There is no such guarantee whatsoever.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And comparing international results does distort the picture somewhat since almost any significantly populated nation can put together a solid starting XI and compete with big teams just as a club like Swansea is sometimes able to earn a result against Man City. That's the beauty of football. Fill out 4 clubs with the best US players and 4 with the best English players and tell me which group you think would fare better long-term in a league format.

In my save England hands down, no contest. The USA would not fill one team with enough top players, England could easily produce 2-3 EPL quality teams.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In my current save there are quite a few really good American players, one AMR, a DC and an ST if i remember correctly. I signed the AMR because he was that good as well.

Yet in my save with the Whitecaps in the MLS i hardly see any decent regens.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In my game im in the year 2027 and the best player in the world for the last 3 years is American. The US national team is also 7th in the world whereas England are 34th. That said, Holland are ranked 2nd so they must be producing some quality players.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The factor you have overlooked is the training and youth facilities of the clubs in these countries, as well as the personality/hidden attributes templates of the footballing culture which are both essential for development.

Except the AI has all seeing powers and snaps them up almost immediately, thus eliminating the 'bad training' issue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not 100% but i think the problem only arise in countries where you don't have the league loaded in. So for people saying I'm in the year 20XX in my game I'm managing in League X and as of yet the national team of said league X is still not in the top 20 teams and have barely any good regen this is the reason why, also even if you are not managing in said league X but you have it loaded its the same thing as far as i know it only happens in unloaded leagues.

But from my own personal experiences there can be an unrealistic amount of good to top quality regens from lower rated footballing countries especially the Africans for me its mainly been Egypt and Algeria. But then again who are we to know the future how can we say that in 2025 Egypt wont have 10+ world class players. It just seems unlikely. giving there current and past team standards.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
But in terms of international results, England outperforms the US,

Oh, really? Please provide any evidence of this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

England won against Spain. Spain won against Germany. Germany won against Netherlands. Netherlands won against England. One single result (especially from a friendly) proves absolutely nothing. Although English players may be overrated in the game, their national team is still better than the US-American in reality in my opinion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Oh, really? Please provide any evidence of this.

OK, final World Cup placements:

1986: England (quarterfinal), United States (knocked out of qualification by Costa Rica)

1990: England (fourth place), United States (last place in group)

1994: England (didn't qualify), United States (third place in group, eliminated in knockout stages)

1998: England (Round of 16), United States (last place in group)

2002: England (quarterfinal), United States (quarterfinal)

2006: England (quarterfinal), United States (last place in group)

2010: England (Round of 16), United States (Round of 16)

So in the last 25 years competing in the same competition, that would be 4-2-1 for England, 1-2-4 for the United States.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Its pointless going over that, we are talking about future here, but it is rather telling that a footballing powerhouse such as England did not fair any better at the last world cup than a nation that holds football 4th or 5th in the list of national sports, which to me could be an indication of things changing in terms of national sides, especially now the states have Klingsman in charge and have not lost since he took over.....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

US regens in my save have absolutely exploded, there are at least 5 who seem to have a CA of at least 160 (at a guess) with room yet to improve further. Yet in my Vancouver Whitecaps save in 7seasons i haven't seem one player as good as these guys, this inactive league problem needs addressing.

South Africa as well are producing ridiculous amount of top quality players, especially strikers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
US regens in my save have absolutely exploded, there are at least 5 who seem to have a CA of at least 160 (at a guess) with room yet to improve further. Yet in my Vancouver Whitecaps save in 7seasons i haven't seem one player as good as these guys, this inactive league problem needs addressing.

South Africa as well are producing ridiculous amount of top quality players, especially strikers.

Just asking... did you start your save with 12.2 or did the regens maybe get created while still on 12.1? Because SI said that the issue has been adressed and should be fixed with the latest patch.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well it was started with 12.1 but these players have been produced since the patch so i assumed that this would have stopped happening since.

Unless you need a completely new save for the changes to take effect.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Well it was started with 12.1 but these players have been produced since the patch so i assumed that this would have stopped happening since.

Unless you need a completely new save for the changes to take effect.

Database and many other change types don't take effect without a new game. Only the ME changes go inside the save.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Have most people lowered the youth ratings or just a few of you?

Does it really have the effect The Hand of God and Chef Raekwon are claiming it to have?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Have most people lowered the youth ratings or just a few of you?

Does it really have the effect The Hand of God and Chef Raekwon are claiming it to have?

I'm thinking of changing it but not sure if I should?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I did the changes I've summarized in post #43, but haven't progressed even 1 season since (started a new game with 12.2 by the way). My plan is to play this save for 4-5 seasons to see if there is something out of whack, and if there is, further modify the youth ratings ans start a new game.

What bothers me is that the game produces different set of newgens depending on whether some leagues are active or not. For example I think USA, Mexico and Turkey's youth ratings are too high (132, 153 and 144, respectively), so I lowered them to 122, 138 and 134, however I only have Turkey as active league among these three, and now I'm thinking, if the game produces too many good newgens only for the inactive leagues, maybe I shouldn't have lowered the rating for Turkey.

I wish the game behaved the same for both cases, that way we could be comfortable about what we are doing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I did the changes I've summarized in post #43, but haven't progressed even 1 season since (started a new game with 12.2 by the way). My plan is to play this save for 4-5 seasons to see if there is something out of whack, and if there is, further modify the youth ratings ans start a new game.

What bothers me is that the game produces different set of newgens depending on whether some leagues are active or not. For example I think USA, Mexico and Turkey's youth ratings are too high (132, 153 and 144, respectively), so I lowered them to 122, 138 and 134, however I only have Turkey as active league among these three, and now I'm thinking, if the game produces too many good newgens only for the inactive leagues, maybe I shouldn't have lowered the rating for Turkey.

I wish the game behaved the same for both cases, that way we could be comfortable about what we are doing.

Yeah exactly.

Let me know how things go :thup:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For reference, this is the current "real" CA output rate based on players in their prime (aged 26 to 30) in the default database:

180-200: 0.6 per year

170-179: 3.8 per year

160-169: 4.6 per year

150-159: 16.2 per year

140-149: 44.6 per year

130-139: 118.8 per year

120-129: 258.4 per year

110-119: 509.6 per year

Obviously, you can't compare regen PA to real life given that unknown failed players with high potential typically aren't given a high PA in the starting database, but it should give you an idea of what a "realistic" CA distribution should look like for fully developed regens of a given age.

Also, for people who like statistics, here is the probability of weak-footedness quality based on current real players in the Premier League:

Very Weak (1-4): 1.8% [17]

Weak (5-8): 38.1% [366]

Reasonable (9-11): 34.1% [328]

Fairly Strong (12-14): 19.9% [191]

Strong (15-17): 5.7% [55]

Very Strong (18-20): 0.4% [4]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
For reference, this is the current "real" CA output rate based on players in their prime (aged 26 to 30) in the default database:

180-200: 0.6 per year

170-179: 3.8 per year

160-169: 4.6 per year

150-159: 16.2 per year

140-149: 44.6 per year

130-139: 118.8 per year

120-129: 258.4 per year

110-119: 509.6 per year

Obviously, you can't compare regen PA to real life given that unknown failed players with high potential typically aren't given a high PA in the starting database, but it should give you an idea of what a "realistic" CA distribution should look like for fully developed regens of a given age.

Also, for people who like statistics, here is the probability of weak-footedness quality based on current real players in the Premier League:

Very Weak (1-4): 1.8% [17]

Weak (5-8): 38.1% [366]

Reasonable (9-11): 34.1% [328]

Fairly Strong (12-14): 19.9% [191]

Strong (15-17): 5.7% [55]

Very Strong (18-20): 0.4% [4]

I'm not sure what you mean? Are these the stats for the current real life players in the game?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm not sure what you mean? Are these the stats for the current real life players in the game?

Yes, that is based on current real players aged 26 to 30.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How far have you got in your current game to see what the output for regens are with the default youth ratings?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looking at some of the general regen ratings for some countries, I must say that we must not only look at the past or the present, but also at the future.

In the book Soccernomics there was an interesting article on the potential of nations. In that it was suggested that basically the population number, the wealth and the affection to football of a country determine its potential for developing top players.

Assuming that there is at least some truth to that and also taking into account the increasing wealth of some nations or their growing love for the game, one may indeed expect Mexico, USA, Egypt, Turkey or China to produce better players in the future than they did in the past.

I agree however that the Dutch indeed have an astonishing tradition of developing a lot more great players than it should be expected and this isn't properly reflected in the game imho.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Looking at some of the general regen ratings for some countries, I must say that we must not only look at the past or the present, but also at the future.

In the book Soccernomics there was an interesting article on the potential of nations. In that it was suggested that basically the population number, the wealth and the affection to football of a country determine its potential for developing top players.

Assuming that there is at least some truth to that and also taking into account the increasing wealth of some nations or their growing love for the game, one may indeed expect Mexico, USA, Egypt, Turkey or China to produce better players in the future than they did in the past.

I agree however that the Dutch indeed have an astonishing tradition of developing a lot more great players than it should be expected and this isn't properly reflected in the game imho.

Really though, how far in the future here are we talking? Most people are likely to only play 10-20 seasons in FM at most so it's safe to assume these youth ratings for some of these nations are unrealistic as I don't see these nations rising to power in football anytime soon, especially China & Egypt. Of course Mexico, Turkey & USA have potential but if you look at their youth ratings in the editor, they are still way too high. I have edited these and almost every other nation's to better reflect the past, present and estimation of near future.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Anyone far enough into their new saves to give some updates?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Anyone far enough into their new saves to give some updates?

I'm just in the phase where there are newgens coming in and checked their PA values with FM Genie Scout. So far it looks much better then it was with patch 12.1. With patch 12.1 I had at least 10 players every season with a PA of over 190 which was great since it allowed me to assemble a world class team almost entirely made of home grown players but it also wasn't that realistic.

So off to the newgens this season which was entirely played during the patch 12.2.1 and 12.2.2 generation. So far I'm at the 03rd of April 2019 the majority newgens have been generated (I think only a few south american countries and south africa are missing atm).

PA 190-200: 1 (0 from inactive nations)

PA 180-189: 1 (0 from inactive nations)

PA 170-179: 18 (1 from inactive nations)

Unfortunately I have no data from before the 12.2 patch to make a real comparison but like I said the amount of players with a pa of over 180 was unbelievable. I have an entire youth/reserve full of players with a pa above 180 waiting to break into my first team and there are a load of great talents at other teams as well.

Now it looks much more realistic. A lot of talents in the 170-179 bracket and only two talents in the 180-200 area. Only one of 21 talents comes from a inactive country which is a Danish lad with a PA of 178.

Fyi active countries are: Argentina, Brazil, England, France, Germany, Italy, Mexico, Netherlands, Portugal, Russia, Spain and Ukraine.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm just in the phase where there are newgens coming in and checked their PA values with FM Genie Scout. So far it looks much better then it was with patch 12.1. With patch 12.1 I had at least 10 players every season with a PA of over 190 which was great since it allowed me to assemble a world class team almost entirely made of home grown players but it also wasn't that realistic.

So off to the newgens this season which was entirely played during the patch 12.2.1 and 12.2.2 generation. So far I'm at the 03rd of April 2019 the majority newgens have been generated (I think only a few south american countries and south africa are missing atm).

PA 190-200: 1 (0 from inactive nations)

PA 180-189: 1 (0 from inactive nations)

PA 170-179: 18 (1 from inactive nations)

Unfortunately I have no data from before the 12.2 patch to make a real comparison but like I said the amount of players with a pa of over 180 was unbelievable. I have an entire youth/reserve full of players with a pa above 180 waiting to break into my first team and there are a load of great talents at other teams as well.

Now it looks much more realistic. A lot of talents in the 170-179 bracket and only two talents in the 180-200 area. Only one of 21 talents comes from a inactive country which is a Danish lad with a PA of 178.

Fyi active countries are: Argentina, Brazil, England, France, Germany, Italy, Mexico, Netherlands, Portugal, Russia, Spain and Ukraine.

Thanks mate :thup:

I've edited almost every nation's youth rating to better reflect real life history and present but now after reading your post I think I should just go with the default youth ratings as I don't want my edited ones affecting newgen quality.

What do you think?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Thanks mate :thup:

I've edited almost every nation's youth rating to better reflect real life history and present but now after reading your post I think I should just go with the default youth ratings as I don't want my edited ones affecting newgen quality.

What do you think?

I think atm it looks very realistic. A lot of talents from Brazil in the 170-179 brackets. The guy with the 190+ rating was an Argentine FB which I find quite remarkable because there have been very few good FB newgens in the game so far.

Overall the distribution of talents seams to be mainly in the leagues you chose as active at the start. So yeah atm I think the distribution looks really good.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think atm it looks very realistic. A lot of talents from Brazil in the 170-179 brackets. The guy with the 190+ rating was an Argentine FB which I find quite remarkable because there have been very few good FB newgens in the game so far.

Overall the distribution of talents seams to be mainly in the leagues you chose as active at the start. So yeah atm I think the distribution looks really good.

Thanks for that. As I said before I'm worried my changes would negatively affect things so I'm just gonna scrap them and go with the default 12.2 database :thup:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm a very indecisive person as you can tell this by me bumping this thread and asking again :( (probably linked to my OCD in some way).

Anyways I thought I'd check to see if this issue has been fixed in 12.2 so I can start with default youth ratings or not. I have edited a lot of them but 1 minute I'm happy with my choice, the next I'm unsure so I hope people can shed some light/give experiences from their current saves. Btw Florinho & Hand of God (through PM) I'm not discarding your findings, just looking for extra input from people :thup:

Also, do nations with only players loaded get counted as 'active nations'? I presume not though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm a very indecisive person as you can tell this by me bumping this thread and asking again :( (probably linked to my OCD in some way).

Anyways I thought I'd check to see if this issue has been fixed in 12.2 so I can start with default youth ratings or not. I have edited a lot of them but 1 minute I'm happy with my choice, the next I'm unsure so I hope people can shed some light/give experiences from their current saves. Btw Florinho & Hand of God (through PM) I'm not discarding your findings, just looking for extra input from people :thup:

Also, do nations with only players loaded get counted as 'active nations'? I presume not though.

I don't know exactly which attributes you edited but my guess is you edited the nation with the editor? The thing is I believe they are only a starting point and I think there are hard coded parts in the game that influence talent distribution that are beyond your control. One of the things I noticed is that talents seams to appear in waves. One or two years in a row Spain might produce the bet talents but then won't be producing too many great talents for the next 4-5 years but France or Germany or Italy or some other nation will.

That means even if you give Spain the highest rating they would only produce the best talents for some years and not for others which means editing those settings will have a limited effect anyway and I would trust the guys who made the database on the matter that they know what they are doing.

Naturally if you have a certain idea of how talent distribution should look like you are bound to be disappointed because a lot of how this is determined is based on randomness and will probably not be what you had imagined. So you need to decide if you just want to go with the flow and except what the game is offering to you or you might just use FMRTE and edit things yourself make things like you want them to be.

But my advice is to go with the flow and make the best out of the things the game is throwing at you. A bit like in real life I guess.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't see what's the big problem here. Think about Ghana, a nation which struggled to qualify for the WC not so long ago, and now have been in the past 2 WCs. Countries change, some of them get a lot better at football (e.g. Ghana).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I don't know exactly which attributes you edited but my guess is you edited the nation with the editor? The thing is I believe they are only a starting point and I think there are hard coded parts in the game that influence talent distribution that are beyond your control. One of the things I noticed is that talents seams to appear in waves. One or two years in a row Spain might produce the bet talents but then won't be producing too many great talents for the next 4-5 years but France or Germany or Italy or some other nation will.

That means even if you give Spain the highest rating they would only produce the best talents for some years and not for others which means editing those settings will have a limited effect anyway and I would trust the guys who made the database on the matter that they know what they are doing.

Naturally if you have a certain idea of how talent distribution should look like you are bound to be disappointed because a lot of how this is determined is based on randomness and will probably not be what you had imagined. So you need to decide if you just want to go with the flow and except what the game is offering to you or you might just use FMRTE and edit things yourself make things like you want them to be.

But my advice is to go with the flow and make the best out of the things the game is throwing at you. A bit like in real life I guess.

Yeah I edited the nation youth ratings but I think you are right tbh. The only thing that annoys me is the ratings of Algeria, China, DR Congo and Egypt especially, but as you said, it can be pretty random so it's probably best to just leave the ratings as they are. Again as you said, I could even just edit the ratings in FMRTE later on in the save if I feel the newgen output is unrealistic.

I'm hoping as SI have said, the issue for inactive nations has now been fixed so what I can do is just avoid loading any players from the 4 countries I mentioned and they shouldn't produce too many great newgens. I'm not 100% sure what is considered as an 'active nation' though? Is it a loaded playable league or just any players loaded from a nation?

Anyway, thanks for the advice. I'm gonna go with the flow like you said and as the majority of users do so it can't be that much of a problem if the majority are happy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not sure whether you can edit the youth ratings with FMRTE...

In my current savegame (started with 12.2), I have taken 10% off each country's youth rating and I have further lowered the ratings of Egypt, Algeria and these other countries to a today's 'adequate' rating. I can't really scout as I'm only in the 3rd division and I have attribute masking turned on but from what I can see, the national squads I encountered with my Austria U19 team are not too weak this way. But then again, I don't have too high standards for player attributes and rather enjoy searching for one good player than seeing 10 of them at once...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What is considered an 'active nation'? Players loaded from that particular country or only a playable league?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Playable nation.

Alright, Cheers :thup:

Since you are viewing this thread, how have your experiences been with newgen output from inactive nations in 12.2?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My game is still working its way through the Zambian wonder years lol 2 of the worlds best are from Zambia and they are untouchable players. But saying that i am no longer finding lots of wonder Africans just ones that were created pre patch, i think it will take another 3/4 years before i can really tell. I have only played one save this FM and i dont fancy starting a new one so i cant say how things are from a new game perspective. Although Spain have just produced two of the best players i have seen in a few years so im hoping that continues there have not been enough great Spanish players in my save.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gee_Simpson, I was very undecided, just like you, before I started my new save. I edited the youth ratings of most countries to my liking, but in very small margins in most cases.

Whether the league are active or not, I think some countries have unrealistically high ratings. Congo, Egypt, Turkey, USA, Brazil to name a few. A lot of European countries have very low ratings. I think this is because of the population, facilites and coaching qualities in these countries.

I will talk about Brazil only, to justify why I decreased the youth rating for Brazil by 10 points. In real life a lot of talent from Brazil don't get developed by European coaches and facilities. In the game however this is not the case. And with Brazil's 185 youth rating in the game, within 5 seasons the teams get clogged with Brazillian world class newgens, because whereas Brazil has 185 for youth rating, the big soccer nations from Europe like Germany, Spain, France, England have their youth ratings at around 145-160. I find it a bit unrealistic and boring, some others may not.

Again, not a drastic change, I just lowered it to 175 (still way higher than European powers) to make it a little more realistic.

Same goes for Mexico, Turkey, etc. I'm from Turkey myself, and although I could enjoy Turkey becoming one of the top 5 nations in Europe, I prefer to keep it more realistic. Turkey's power level should be closer to those of Belgium, Portugal, Greece, Croatia, etc., and not at the same level with England, Spain, France.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.