Cleon Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Please use this thread to discuss http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/289528-The-SI-Sports-Centre-Including-the-W-M-Formation I'll be happy to answer your questions if you have any. I'll be trying to keep the thread as updated as possible. I might have time to add a bit more on the W-M a little later Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
penza Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Hi Cleon do you have the link to the W-M formation? Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted November 28, 2011 Author Share Posted November 28, 2011 Hi Cleon do you have the link to the W-M formation?Thanks I won't be making any tactic available as I want people to discuss and learn why something works. Rather than putting a download link up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
penza Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 oh I see thanks for the prompt reply, I am really curious about this tactic, I was wondering if it was easily exploited by a "wide" tactic because there are no fullbacks and no wingers? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted November 28, 2011 Author Share Posted November 28, 2011 oh I see thanks for the prompt reply, I am really curious about this tactic, I was wondering if it was easily exploited by a "wide" tactic because there are no fullbacks and no wingers? Not really no, and I do have fullbacks. You'll see how the tactic works when I post the game I played against Chelsea. Hopefully I'll get time to post it today Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
penza Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 awesome thanks looking forward to it! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matj Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 W-M your timing is impeccable, finished reading inverting the pyramid last night Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted November 28, 2011 Author Share Posted November 28, 2011 W-M your timing is impeccable, finished reading inverting the pyramid last night Good read isn't it Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pozzati Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Trying to adapt the W-M to my team... Seems very inconsistent. I often lose against the bad and win against the good. Of course i change some minor parts before each match according to the opponent (Although my team probably isn't good enough. Newly promoted). Would like to know the type of players you use, though. From your tactic it seems like your midfielders should consist of four fairly defensive players. Also what type of shouts to use as this is a difficult tactic to adapt. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dooter7th Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 im using your 4 4 2 , i must say its the best football i have played yet ...i play online mainly and i have struggled with every formation i have made or downloaded the simple 442 , with the shouts is doing the business i have changed the dlf to a cf thou , cuts down the amount of shots from range he has ty i have also made the wm formation just incase lol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaycar Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Now that was worth waiting for! I was not expecting to see the W-M! great thread Cleon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted November 29, 2011 Author Share Posted November 29, 2011 Now that was worth waiting for! I was not expecting to see the W-M! great thread Cleon Thank you, I'm currently ripping teams apart with it. I think a lot of people will be surprised how effective it is if you spend a little time getting to understand how it works. I'm halfway through writing about how I destroyed Chelsea with it in the Club World Championship. I'll also be adding a bit showing how to use the Analysis tab to figure out the strengths and weakness of your own tactic Trying to adapt the W-M to my team... Seems very inconsistent. I often lose against the bad and win against the good. Of course i change some minor parts before each match according to the opponent (Although my team probably isn't good enough. Newly promoted). Would like to know the type of players you use, though. From your tactic it seems like your midfielders should consist of four fairly defensive players. Also what type of shouts to use as this is a difficult tactic to adapt. Once I post up about a game I've played with the W-M all your questions will be answered. I could give a half asses answer now but it wouldn't be justified. So I'll just let you know I've ackowledged your questions and not ignoring them. But the next post in the thread will give you a much better insight into the actual workings of the tactic im using your 4 4 2 , i must say its the best football i have played yet ...i play online mainly and i have struggled with every formation i have made or downloaded the simple 442 , with the shouts is doing the business i have changed the dlf to a cf thou , cuts down the amount of shots from range he has ty i have also made the wm formation just incase lol Thanks. I think the football the 442 and 451 I posted is very good yeah. But the football the W-M produces is a lot better, but then I am biased because the W-M is my favourite tactic of all time Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaycar Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 Yes, that's the difference, the understanding... the reason why people copy settings and fail. :/ I'm looking forward to the explanation of the tactic Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matj Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 Good read isn't it Yeah thoroughly enjoyed it ,will be getting more books on tactics for sure Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted November 29, 2011 Author Share Posted November 29, 2011 Yes, that's the difference, the understanding... the reason why people copy settings and fail. :/I'm looking forward to the explanation of the tactic A lot of people who post with issues on the forum don't even watch any games in full. If a lot more people watched a few of them, they'd understand tactics a whole lot better. I'll try and have the next bit up in the next day or so Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dooter7th Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 between us we will make it work !!! i had a lil go today , even the the W_M formation creates some nice chances , at the back im getting murdered anyone else had a play with this yet i do love formations that aint normal lol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pozzati Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 Thank you, Cleon. I find this thread, or project, absolutely vital for the game. At least my game. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
moon_goat Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 Just for the record, W-M as shown in your picture, is actually the wrong way round. The way it's shown there is a 3-2-2-3, with the M being the 3-2 closest to the keeper. In reality it's the other way around, the way Chapman came up with it was to basically just change around the way the back 5 players were laid out from other tactics of the time. So the "real" way to note down the formation is with the W being the 5 players nearest the keeper, and the M being the front 5. It doesn't really matter so much as the shape is the same for WM, but when it comes to W-W or M-M formations, Metodo, or other formations from around that time, it actually does make a massive difference to the layout of the players. If you read the book Jonathan Wilson wrote, inverting the pyramid, the concept and reasoning behind everything he says is correct, but just a flaw in the research (i'd assume it's simply a flaw in the research, anyway) means that the notation and name of a lot of his formations described in the book aren't so accurate. Unfortunately as there are not many books of it's type around, and people view Jonathan Wilson as some sort of disciple, people take inverting the pyramid's word as gospel and so don't accept anything else contradicting him. As it were, (not sure about now) there was a chalkboard in the Arsenal museum showing how the W-M worked and was written down by Chapman himself, but like i said, not sure if it's still there now. I always make classic tactics in WM though, always enjoyable to see how they perform Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted November 29, 2011 Author Share Posted November 29, 2011 Just for the record, W-M as shown in your picture, is actually the wrong way round. The way it's shown there is a 3-2-2-3, with the M being the 3-2 closest to the keeper. In reality it's the other way around, the way Chapman came up with it was to basically just change around the way the back 5 players were laid out from other tactics of the time. So the "real" way to note down the formation is with the W being the 5 players nearest the keeper, and the M being the front 5.It doesn't really matter so much as the shape is the same for WM, but when it comes to W-W or M-M formations, Metodo, or other formations from around that time, it actually does make a massive difference to the layout of the players. If you read the book Jonathan Wilson wrote, inverting the pyramid, the concept and reasoning behind everything he says is correct, but just a flaw in the research (i'd assume it's simply a flaw in the research, anyway) means that the notation and name of a lot of his formations described in the book aren't so accurate. Unfortunately as there are not many books of it's type around, and people view Jonathan Wilson as some sort of disciple, people take inverting the pyramid's word as gospel and so don't accept anything else contradicting him. As it were, (not sure about now) there was a chalkboard in the Arsenal museum showing how the W-M worked and was written down by Chapman himself, but like i said, not sure if it's still there now. I always make classic tactics in WM though, always enjoyable to see how they perform That's just how the image I nicked from wiki was made that's all. But the picture isn't wrong, its just back then they showed formations the other way around. I.e defence at top and attack at the bottom. And Jonathon Wilson is good but he has been wrong a few times, but he does admit it. That's why he wrote about how Southampton actually created the W-M before Herbert Chapman. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UPNATEM Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 Cleon big fan of your work + you have inspired me to create my own tactics and adjust more rather than just plucking downloads off here! quick question do you edit individual player instructions or just use the player roles? cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted November 30, 2011 Author Share Posted November 30, 2011 Cleon big fan of your work + you have inspired me to create my own tactics and adjust more rather than just plucking downloads off here! quick question do you edit individual player instructions or just use the player roles? cheers Depends, if I've not stated I've changed something individually then I'll be using the standard player roles Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted November 30, 2011 Author Share Posted November 30, 2011 I've updated the main thread with the Chelsea game Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustardpower Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 I don't understand how just highlighting what attributes they use in certain times can be used to improve someones tactics when I cant change attributes in the middle of a game Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeBainborough Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Cleon, in the third goal, do you think Ganso showed the use of anticipation also, in the way that he anticipated where the keeper would parry the ball to pounce on the rebound? Also Ganso looks like he's performing very well as a striker for you! What role do you have him playing in? Sorry if you've already said this and I've missed it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted November 30, 2011 Author Share Posted November 30, 2011 I don't understand how just highlighting what attributes they use in certain times can be used to improve someones tactics when I cant change attributes in the middle of a game That isn't why the attributes were highlighted. And I never claimed it would improve anyones game. Someones game wont improve if they fail to understand the concept to begin with. The next part will be the analyse tab which does help you during a game, but I don't have time for that today. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted November 30, 2011 Author Share Posted November 30, 2011 Cleon, in the third goal, do you think Ganso showed the use of anticipation also, in the way that he anticipated where the keeper would parry the ball to pounce on the rebound?Also Ganso looks like he's performing very well as a striker for you! What role do you have him playing in? Sorry if you've already said this and I've missed it. I think it happened too fast for him to anticipate, but he showed concentration to stay focused and get on the end of the 2nd attempt. Someone with less concentration might not have been aware of the parry. He's the deeplying forward Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctingcter Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Hi, Cleon. Very interesting read! Interested in how you would set up the formation if you had enough AMC's in your team, also would you then change how you set up the front 3? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikcheck Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 Fantastic Cleon! I'm trying to recreate WM formation for FM08 so I would really like to see what instructions you gave, especially the 2 DMC. Keep the good work Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted December 1, 2011 Author Share Posted December 1, 2011 Hi, Cleon. Very interesting read! Interested in how you would set up the formation if you had enough AMC's in your team, also would you then change how you set up the front 3? Well I'd have to watch a few games and see how it played out. But off the top of my head I'd have to change the left forward as he'd be coming inside, but the SC drops back so I'd have 4 players (including the 2 AMC's) all in the same space roughly. So I'd have to sort that out. But without seeing it it play out first its hard to say Fantastic Cleon! I'm trying to recreate WM formation for FM08 so I would really like to see what instructions you gave, especially the 2 DMC. Keep the good work I'll try and put screenshots up for you tomorrow Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikcheck Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 Thanks alot! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottevil30 Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 decided to adopt this as a 2nd tactic for my arsenal team, about to try it out Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
liamstack151 Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 Had a read through your thread this evening and have adopted the w-m formation. And so far so good! Only two games into season mind but it definitely seems to have breathed some life into my side who have finished 5th for two seasons running now, I have always scored many, many goals but failed to keep the ball in any match, but this seems to be very tight, and has given me a different way of approaching my tactics. And just hammered Israel 6-0 with England (yes I know hardly surprising!) but more impressed with the manner of the victory, it could have been double figures! And in pre season (I manage Blackburn) we hammered every team the smallest win was 6-0. But again it's the amount of possession, combined with limiting the chances created against me. So will be interesting to see if my side can take the next step now, have won the fa cup, league cup and runners up in uefa cup with my previous tactics, so my side are capable just needed a fresh approach and I am hoping this is it! Cheers mate! A very good read, and thanks for taking the timeout to do it! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottevil30 Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 4-1 against Stoke in the first match with Park getting a hattrick from the left wing Defensively, well not so good Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
juvito2k Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 Upload the save please. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted December 5, 2011 Author Share Posted December 5, 2011 Had a read through your thread this evening and have adopted the w-m formation. And so far so good! Only two games into season mind but it definitely seems to have breathed some life into my side who have finished 5th for two seasons running now, I have always scored many, many goals but failed to keep the ball in any match, but this seems to be very tight, and has given me a different way of approaching my tactics. And just hammered Israel 6-0 with England (yes I know hardly surprising!) but more impressed with the manner of the victory, it could have been double figures! And in pre season (I manage Blackburn) we hammered every team the smallest win was 6-0. But again it's the amount of possession, combined with limiting the chances created against me. So will be interesting to see if my side can take the next step now, have won the fa cup, league cup and runners up in uefa cup with my previous tactics, so my side are capable just needed a fresh approach and I am hoping this is it! Cheers mate! A very good read, and thanks for taking the timeout to do it! Thank you I also get a lot of possession and keep lots of clean sheets. I think I've just kept 50 clean sheets in 78 games in the current season which isn't bad at all. From an attacking sense I've had lots of 6, 7 and 8 nil wins though. 4-1 against Stoke in the first match with Park getting a hattrick from the left wing Defensively, well not so good Hey Scott long time no see The way I set the tactic up was for the left striker to be the main scorer. I have Neymar because I'm Santos and decided to build the attack around him. The central and right sided striker score a lot as well but the left sidedplayer scores just under a goal a game for me. With a lot of hattricks or even 4 or 5 goals a game chucked in. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikcheck Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 Hi Cleon. For when a new update? tks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted December 5, 2011 Author Share Posted December 5, 2011 Hi Cleon. For when a new update? tks Not really sure in all honesty, I thought the thread would have been more popular than it actually is. I'm still playing the game though just haven't wrote anything up as of yet. I will update, just not sure as of when just yet Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikcheck Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 yes....i understand. thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pozzati Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 I think that the thread is more popular than you think. I am addicted to it, and I can't play the game until I can fully understand your ideas behind how you play the game. However I'm looking forward to the WM development is over (Not so interested in that particular tactic). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaycar Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 Indeed, I think you'll be suprised by how many are lurking without posting Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dolph11 Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 Ok, really interested in how this W-M formation can be implemented. Reason is, I will never understand it as there can not be any way it can work! It's obvious that it has been for you Cleon which is why I want to try it. Also you are keen to profess to the style of the football being played, this interests me greatly so I'm going to give it a try. My only concern, how do you defend against a 4-4-2 where the opposition have 2 forwards? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted December 6, 2011 Author Share Posted December 6, 2011 Ok, really interested in how this W-M formation can be implemented. Reason is, I will never understand it as there can not be any way it can work! It's obvious that it has been for you Cleon which is why I want to try it. Also you are keen to profess to the style of the football being played, this interests me greatly so I'm going to give it a try. My only concern, how do you defend against a 4-4-2 where the opposition have 2 forwards? You have 2 DMC's who drop deep, so it's not as bad as you think. And why shouldn't it work? it covers the pitch quite well and you don't get out numbered. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dolph11 Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 Also, do you use the playmaker option? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dolph11 Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 In real life it would struggle to work which is what I meant, or it would seem to at least. Well, I've got it set up so lets see how it goes! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted December 6, 2011 Author Share Posted December 6, 2011 In real life it would struggle to work which is what I meant, or it would seem to at least. Well, I've got it set up so lets see how it goes! Quite a few top teams use a variant of the W-M and are very successful. On paper it might look like it gets murdered in certain parts but once you've set it up for the group of players you have it becomes very solid and stable Yes the right MC is a DLP, it shows it in the screenshots. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dolph11 Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 I tried it and failed miserably lol! My Full-Backs got torn apart and runs between the Full-Backs and Centre-Back were too easy. Wide players would make runs for long balls and they were just so successful against me that it got annoying! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pozzati Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 In the save with Santos you completely changed your tactics from the previous fluid, counter-strategy and expressive 442 to the rigid W-M which seems to completely change the way you played. So what kind of players do you need in the certain roles? Especially as the midfield 4 has to be fairly defensive and also the full-backs. Or are the roles "lying" and you should use more offensive, creative players in the MC-spots (or one of the DMs?). I understand the concept, and it seems to dominate the midfield area (obviously). However I think there are to rigid offensively, only using the 3 offensive players. I can't seem to get the FR to work either. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matj Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Not really sure in all honesty, I thought the thread would have been more popular than it actually is. I'm still playing the game though just haven't wrote anything up as of yet. I will update, just not sure as of when just yet Don’t let a lack of post put you off. Looking at how many views the 2 threads have had (over 3500 in ten days) there are probably hundreds of people like myself who regularly read peoples work but don’t feel they have sufficient knowledge to contribute to the thread I was looking forward to your take on the analyse tab as I don’t use it a great deal, so anything I can learn from that and how I can then use it to make an impact on the match would help a great deal Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faramir Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 I would agree with Matj's comments Cleon- I think there is plenty of interest (myself included), but I haven't had anything to offer/comment on just yet (still plugging along with Dafuge's Challenge, so not exactly at the levels you are showing/commenting about ). Keep up the fine work in any case Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted December 9, 2011 Author Share Posted December 9, 2011 Thanks I'll try and have something done for this weekend. I'm thinking maybe the analysis page and explain how you know if your tactic is working or not. I'm also thinking of maybe explaining a few of the player instructions like hug touchline, cut inside, moves into channels etc and the benefits of using them in the system I play. Does that sound alright? Or would you rather I focused on a different area? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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