The SI Sports Centre - DISCUSSION THREAD

[Kung]

HI i have a question Cleon i use ur 4-4-2 setup and since i have a top team with some great players in 2020 with my boro team.. I noticed that i do not make many crosses,is that becouse if the really narrow width and when i attack my wingers gets into box and my fullbacks rarley cross anyway? Also do u have any aother useful shouts combos that u can share? im thinking like to go really defensive vs a other top team?

[MilanoBaros]

Hey Cleon what about the wide diamond 442? Is that any better at handling these 3 man midfield formations?

I still have you CH_41212 I've brought it over to pretty much ever FM since 2005.

[Cleon]

They played a 41221, at least that's how they started.

I have it set to focus passing down both flanks. What else should I do to bring the wingers into it more? If I make my MC's do little in terms of TTB, Crossing, Forward runs? Would they then look to get it out to the wingers quicker?

That's why I was hoping to see you play a flat 442 with a team that struggles instead of being favorites so I can see how you handle being the weaker team.

And pushing up my defensive line, doesn't that get my team to sit higher up the pitch? Or close the gap between midfield and defense? But we are sitting back a lot and their team is sitting higher up the pitch. Does counter attack affect this?

I use classic tactics because I prefer to use them. And all the options with TC on player positions doesn't comfort me in the slightest.

I wasn't favourites with Santos, there a small club with little money. They have a few decent players but there are far more superior sides in the league compared to me.

Have you watched any of the games you lost back on full? I'm guesisng you haven't? You should, as that can tell you a lot more than I can just by looking at a screenshot. You should be able to see exactly what kind of problems you faced.

[Cleon]

HI i have a question Cleon i use ur 4-4-2 setup and since i have a top team with some great players in 2020 with my boro team.. I noticed that i do not make many crosses,is that becouse if the really narrow width and when i attack my wingers gets into box and my fullbacks rarley cross anyway? Also do u have any aother useful shouts combos that u can share? im thinking like to go really defensive vs a other top team?

There is a thread just further down from this one with a list of shouts people use. I only use the ones I posted.

As for crossing that depends on how the wingers and fullbacks are set up. I didn't have them cross much as I prefer to play with the ball on the ground. If you want them to cross more then instruct them to, but make sure they have someone in the box to cross to.

[Cleon]

Hey Cleon what about the wide diamond 442? Is that any better at handling these 3 man midfield formations?

I still have you CH_41212 I've brought it over to pretty much ever FM since 2005.

haha do you?

The flat 442 is fine just requires a little time watching a portion of the game that's all.

[MilanoBaros]

I wasn't favourites with Santos, there a small club with little money. They have a few decent players but there are far more superior sides in the league compared to me.

Have you watched any of the games you lost back on full? I'm guesisng you haven't? You should, as that can tell you a lot more than I can just by looking at a screenshot. You should be able to see exactly what kind of problems you faced.

Thanks, I've watched the games on full in the past but I've not known how to fix the problem. I'm going to watch a game on full and I'll see if I can tell what the problem is then I will report back.

[MilanoBaros]

Okay I'm playing with the same base 442 but my passing in on short. I've put my MC's to rarely everything except for mixed long shots.

Now watching the full match against Porto. So far I've seen my MC pass it to my right midfielder several times. But he rarely tries to beat his man, he just holds the ball for a little bit then passes it back to the right back.

My RM has Forward RUns, RWB, TTB and Cross ball set to often. I've also tried it with set to mic for the last 2 options but not the first two.

How do I get him to try take on his man more often? Or have can I get him to make a forward run so my MC or RB can play him into space?

WHen defending I've noticed my RM will give the FB a lot of time on the ball before going in to close him down. So I think I'll increase his closing down a couple of notches and see how that goes.

I ended up drawing with Porto 1-1. I got my equalizer in extra time, and it was one of my MC's that crossed the ball for my striker to score on the near post.

Their goal was from a cross in from the right wing and what seemed a pretty easy header.

They dominated midfield playing 41221 formation. They had something like 22 shots to my 5. So I was really lucky to come away with anything.

I still want to figure out how I can get my wide men to have more of an influence on the game. :S

[yonko]

Zonal marking is the most demanding as it requires the more attributes of your players. But non-specific man marking isn't that different from zonal marking though. I'm not sure why it's still called man marking as that is quite misleading. It's basically a more rigid form of zonal marking unless you use specific man marking.

From my own experiences mixed marking works quite well especially defensivley. It's a good way of eliminating a specific threat from certain player's especially creative ones.

I'm sorry Cleon, I still don't quite understand non-specific man-marking and how is it different from zonal marking. Could you please explain a little bit more about it? Will non-specific man-marking make Wingers track oppositions Fullbacks more often?

When I asked you about your thoughts with regards to mixed marking, I meant a mixture of zonal + non-specific man-marking.

[Cleon]

I'm sorry Cleon, I still don't quite understand non-specific man-marking and how is it different from zonal marking. Could you please explain a little bit more about it? Will non-specific man-marking make Wingers track oppositions Fullbacks more often?

When I asked you about your thoughts with regards to mixed marking, I meant a mixture of zonal + non-specific man-marking.

With zonal marking, once a player enters a certain zone so to speak the defender will pick him up and stay with him until he leaves it. Man marking the same happens but the defender will follow him all over, even if someone else is better placed to mark him. That's why you retain shape a lot better if u use zonal marking.

It is a very good way to get fullbacks and wingbacks tracking back. In fact even wingers and AML/AMR's. I use it on my front players if I want them to track back.

Milan - I will reply to you, I just don't have the time till tomorrow

[MilanoBaros]

Alright Cleon I'm going to make things a little easier for you I hope.

I have to restart my Boavista save because if overwrote the save by accident. Stupid computer/mouse lag.

From the start I will use your 442 in your sticky thread. So You will at least know how it's set up. As Boa start in the lowest league in Portugal though they're a team that belong in the top division, so I anticipate the first season should be a cake walk.

[Cleon]

Alright Cleon I'm going to make things a little easier for you I hope.

I have to restart my Boavista save because if overwrote the save by accident. Stupid computer/mouse lag.

From the start I will use your 442 in your sticky thread. So You will at least know how it's set up. As Boa start in the lowest league in Portugal though they're a team that belong in the top division, so I anticipate the first season should be a cake walk.

Funny you should say that, I've done the exact same with my Santos save, so have lost 2 seasons as I have a older save

[yonko]

With zonal marking, once a player enters a certain zone so to speak the defender will pick him up and stay with him until he leaves it. Man marking the same happens but the defender will follow him all over, even if someone else is better placed to mark him. That's why you retain shape a lot better if u use zonal marking.

It is a very good way to get fullbacks and wingbacks tracking back. In fact even wingers and AML/AMR's. I use it on my front players if I want them to track back.

Milan - I will reply to you, I just don't have the time till tomorrow

Got it, thanks.

[Kamil-S]

Cleon,

I have small question about your W-M settings. How you play against stronger teams? With defferent shouts only or with different starting strategy, width and tempo?

[Cleon]

Cleon,

I have small question about your W-M settings. How you play against stronger teams? With defferent shouts only or with different starting strategy, width and tempo?

With different strategy but I don't adjust it until actually in a game. I change it based on what's happening in a game. I also use shouts too.

[MilanoBaros]

Hmm I've set up your 442 but things aren't going well.

Won the first 5-0 was a cup game and I was huge favorites.

Lost the first league game 0-2 and just lost on penalties in another cup game 0-0.

To be honest with you I'm looking to make a 442 that is plug and play. I don't really want to do any tinkering against different formations. Just a 442 that could put up a fight against any tactic.

I remember in FM2006 there was a Flabarama 442 that was a really good plug n play tactic. But that was the last really good flat 442 I remember, Doh!

I appreciate that help that you've given, thanks.

[Cleon]

No such thing as plug and play any more, anyone claiming otherwise is lying in all honesty. You need to adapt as you play a wider variation of formations these days and setting up 1 particular way doesn't work against everyone as your finding out.

[davehanson]

Cleon, one thing that I have been wondering about, how are your training schedules coming along? Have you altered them at all from the ones you posted in posts 3-5?

It is one area of the game that I feel 'I let myself down'. I hate making schedules as I am never sure I am doing them quite right, and the issue for me is that I don't really find out if they have worked for a year or more.

Many Thanks. Great thread, enjoy reading about the W-M tactic, although not brave enough myself to make one.

[Cleon]

Cleon, one thing that I have been wondering about, how are your training schedules coming along? Have you altered them at all from the ones you posted in posts 3-5?

It is one area of the game that I feel 'I let myself down'. I hate making schedules as I am never sure I am doing them quite right, and the issue for me is that I don't really find out if they have worked for a year or more.

Many Thanks. Great thread, enjoy reading about the W-M tactic, although not brave enough myself to make one.

Still the exact same schedules as posted. Although I did move onto individual ones for every single player. I'll try and get an update up for you, if you like

[davehanson]

Still the exact same schedules as posted. Although I did move onto individual ones for every single player. I'll try and get an update up for you, if you like

Yeah that'd be good, whenever you get a chance. I use a few more than you posted in the thread, and mine are not exactly the same as yours, but they are quite simlar in their approach. I just honestly don't know if they are any good or not.

I thought about individual schedules, but decided it would take far, far too much time:D I have just kept them on the schedules their positions are most suited for then give them all individual training focus according to what my assistant thinks.

[Cleon]

Yeah that'd be good, whenever you get a chance. I use a few more than you posted in the thread, and mine are not exactly the same as yours, but they are quite simlar in their approach. I just honestly don't know if they are any good or not.

I thought about individual schedules, but decided it would take far, far too much time:D I have just kept them on the schedules their positions are most suited for then give them all individual training focus according to what my assistant thinks.

I thought that individual schedules would take lots of time but it took me like 15 mins to create for every single player even youths. All I did was create blank schedules for every single player. I then went to his profile page, clicked the training tab and did it via that using the 'training catergory' section as well. Then you can focus on the attributes you want. Honestly I'd advise you to do it for your youths or better players, it's well worth it.

[Kamil-S]

I thought that individual schedules would take lots of time but it took me like 15 mins to create for every single player even youths. All I did was create blank schedules for every single player. I then went to his profile page, clicked the training tab and did it via that using the 'training catergory' section as well. Then you can focus on the attributes you want. Honestly I'd advise you to do it for your youths or better players, it's well worth it.

Yeah but how to translate to workload's clicks difference between attributes importance and select which one should be increased more than another and which one should only stay at current level?

[Cleon]

Yeah but how to translate to workload's clicks difference between attributes importance and select which one should be increased more than another and which one should only stay at current level?

I don't work on a click ratio or anything, as I think ideas that follow a certain number of click for this catergory and so on are wrong and not how training works. What I do is look at the players profile and his stats. Then I look at the attributes he uses for the position and role he plays for the club. Then I just focus on those areas. How much I train a certain catergory depends on how low the attributes are to begin with. The lower the attributes for the role they play for you, then the higher I train. It's pretty self explantory and simple if you look at the attributes he has and the ones he uses for the role.

[Kamil-S]

I don't work on a click ratio or anything, as I think ideas that follow a certain number of click for this catergory and so on are wrong and not how training works. What I do is look at the players profile and his stats. Then I look at the attributes he uses for the position and role he plays for the club. Then I just focus on those areas. How much I train a certain catergory depends on how low the attributes are to begin with. The lower the attributes for the role they play for you, then the higher I train. It's pretty self explantory and simple if you look at the attributes he has and the ones he uses for the role.

I agree but attributes are represented by training's categories, so if I want to train two attributes from one category and three from another then is it necessary to differ workload between them? How high workload should be for attributes that I want only not to drop?

[Cleon]

I agree but attributes are represented by training's categories, so if I want to train two attributes from one category and three from another then is it necessary to differ workload between them? How high workload should be for attributes that I want only not to drop?

It doesn't matter how many attributes are in a catergory, they all have equal chance of improving if training that catergory. You have to make schedules that you feel comfy with, if you feel the workload is too high then reduce it, or if the player is constantly moaning then reduce it. If you look at the schedules I've posted then look at the Neymar one, you'll get a general idea of how I approached it.

[Kamil-S]

It doesn't matter how many attributes are in a catergory, they all have equal chance of improving if training that catergory. You have to make schedules that you feel comfy with, if you feel the workload is too high then reduce it, or if the player is constantly moaning then reduce it. If you look at the schedules I've posted then look at the Neymar one, you'll get a general idea of how I approached it.

OK, thanks. I'll try to turn positional schedules to individual.

BTW - link to your thread in "Important Links Thread" doesn't work

[Cleon]

OK, thanks. I'll try to turn positional schedules to individual.

BTW - link to your thread in "Important Links Thread" doesn't work

Thanks for that, I've fixed it

[daleuk8]

Hi Cleon. I wondered if you could offer some advice? Following your recent response to my post, I've started looking at the stats and analysis aswell as stopping the game. I read a thread some time ago on reading the ME, is direction of passes a sign of how the opposition are playing? For example: If there are more passes going sideways or backwards could this indicate that they playing defensivly?

[Cleon]

Hi Cleon. I wondered if you could offer some advice? Following your recent response to my post, I've started looking at the stats and analysis aswell as stopping the game. I read a thread some time ago on reading the ME, is direction of passes a sign of how the opposition are playing? For example: If there are more passes going sideways or backwards could this indicate that they playing defensivly?

It could indicate a few things;

The player is more favoured to pass that way due to footedness

He's been closed down and can't pass the other way

He has no options to the other side of him, players could be too far back or too advanced

But normally too many passes backwards are down to a defensive mentality yeah.

[Cleon]

OK, thanks. I'll try to turn positional schedules to individual.

BTW - link to your thread in "Important Links Thread" doesn't work

If you need any more help with them just gimme a shout

[Kamil-S]

If you need any more help with them just gimme a shout

Thanks. Your schedules edited and combined with individual training focus seems to work OK. Unfortunately some players show no progress no matter how low or how high workload I set (generally low professional and low determination personalities).

[Cleon]

Thanks. Your schedules edited and combined with individual training focus seems to work OK. Unfortunately some players show no progress no matter how low or how high workload I set (generally low professional and low determination personalities).

How long have you tried them for? What ages are the players?

[bpw91]

I have been trying to read through all of the thread and comment, and apologies if this has been asked before.

Can this way of doing things be implemented into a game mid 2nd season or is it best to start again?

Could it work with a championship team such as Leicester?

I must admit i struggle with tactics and dont like to just download peoples tactics, so think i will try to build a tactic from your project. Appreciate any advice.

[Cleon]

I have been trying to read through all of the thread and comment, and apologies if this has been asked before.

Can this way of doing things be implemented into a game mid 2nd season or is it best to start again?

Could it work with a championship team such as Leicester?

I must admit i struggle with tactics and dont like to just download peoples tactics, so think i will try to build a tactic from your project. Appreciate any advice.

Well doing it takes time for things to settle, you could do it mid season but changing things drastically could have a negative effect. Especially as the team won't be used to the new style of playing. It could cost you points.

And yeah the approach works with everyone.

[Kamil-S]

How long have you tried them for? What ages are the players?

I've tried for only 8-9 months on my test save with Real Madrid. Benzema - 23 y.o., Coentrao - 23 y.o., Marcelo - 23 y.o. Benzema and Marcelo were not happy with training even after I lowered workload to level of preset default training (database editor shows that they both have low determination and professionalism). I tried personal interaction to force them to train harder - no results. Unfortunately tutoring at 23 y.o. and global reputation after FM2010 is not an option

[Cleon]

I've tried for only 8-9 months on my test save with Real Madrid. Benzema - 23 y.o., Coentrao - 23 y.o., Marcelo - 23 y.o. Benzema and Marcelo were not happy with training even after I lowered workload to level of preset default training (database editor shows that they both have low determination and professionalism). I tried personal interaction to force them to train harder - no results. Unfortunately tutoring at 23 y.o. and global reputation after FM2010 is not an option

Did you have them learning any PPM's or individual focus set? Player's tend to moan a lot if you use them.

[Kamil-S]

Did you have them learning any PPM's or individual focus set? Player's tend to moan a lot if you use them.

No PPMs, Benzema - new position (AML), Marcelo - individual focus on marking. But they moan even without this.

[bpw91]

Great read. A previous post mentioned that you had posted the player individual instructions but I cannot seem to locate them. Are they on a different thread?

Sorry if this is an obvious question

Also for the 442 did you use use the default instructions that the tc sets?

[Cleon]

Great read. A previous post mentioned that you had posted the player individual instructions but I cannot seem to locate them. Are they on a different thread?

Sorry if this is an obvious question

Also for the 442 did you use use the default instructions that the tc sets?

The settings are those what the TC adds. I didn't change anything individually unless I stated I did.

[bpw91]

Thanks for the advice. I have been trying to use the 41221 tactic you described early in in thread. I am using Leicester in the championship.

One of the problems I am experiencing is that players seem to be able to break my defensive line with ease every match, and waltze through score. Is anything I should be doing to the defender settings to stop this, i tried playing around with the defensive line setting but it does not make any different. Any suggestions?

Also I let in alot of goals fromn set pieces, and if they do not score a chance is created. Did you post anything about defending set pieces?

I appreciate the help, as I am getting very frustrated with the game

[Cleon]

What kind of stats do your defenders have? Have you tried having a stopper and cover defence? How is the defence been beaten, have you used the analysis tab to get more info on 'how' they're been beaten?

As for set pieces have you tried the match prep for defending set pieces? I find it helps massivley if you are conceeding quite a lot.

[Kamil-S]

Cleon,

How often do you use shout "hassle opponents"? I tried all shouts you recommended as attacking but "hassle opponents" simply doesn't work for me. With this shout my team seems to be more vulnerable to a quick counters. Is it an effect of tight man-marking of this shout or I'm using it in wrong way?

[bpw91]

What kind of stats do your defenders have? Have you tried having a stopper and cover defence? How is the defence been beaten, have you used the analysis tab to get more info on 'how' they're been beaten?

As for set pieces have you tried the match prep for defending set pieces? I find it helps massivley if you are conceeding quite a lot.

I will try the match prep for set pieces.

Apart from set piece goals, the goals are usually ones where one player runs at the defence and slide a ball through and the striker is alway on the shoulder of my cb or fb and has a simple tap in or in the same manner there is a easy cross and the attacker is totally unmarked.

My defenders are 10-14 in the main attributes such as tackling/positioning/concentration. Do you look for certain key stats, or do you use the ones that are highlighted in the individual instructions.

I am not sure how to use the analysis tab. I know you posted some comments about the heat map, but not sure how to interpret it.

[dolph11]

I have exactly the same problem bpw, not been able to stop it!

[yonko]

When looking for central defenders, these attributes are important:

priority 1 - marking, tackling, positioning, anticipation, concentration =/> 15

priority 2 - bravery, composure, decisions, determination, strength =/> 12

priority 3 - teamwork, pace, jumping, heading =/> 10

[Cleon]

I will answer these questions but I'm away until Sunday and trying to do replies on my phone sucks. Sorry.

[Cleon]

Cleon,

How often do you use shout "hassle opponents"? I tried all shouts you recommended as attacking but "hassle opponents" simply doesn't work for me. With this shout my team seems to be more vulnerable to a quick counters. Is it an effect of tight man-marking of this shout or I'm using it in wrong way?

Hassle Opponents

Effect: Instructs the team to close down the opposition and reduce the space available.

Action: Vastly increases closing down settings, changes marking to tight-man, increases tempo.

Useful: When needing to regain possession quickly; when playing against a slow, technically inferior team; when needing to reduce space for the opposition.

What shape are you using? As it could be a flaw in the system you play. I use it a lot, especially if I want to unsettle the opponents and win the ball back as soon as possible.

[Cleon]

I will try the match prep for set pieces.

Apart from set piece goals, the goals are usually ones where one player runs at the defence and slide a ball through and the striker is alway on the shoulder of my cb or fb and has a simple tap in or in the same manner there is a easy cross and the attacker is totally unmarked.

My defenders are 10-14 in the main attributes such as tackling/positioning/concentration. Do you look for certain key stats, or do you use the ones that are highlighted in the individual instructions.

I am not sure how to use the analysis tab. I know you posted some comments about the heat map, but not sure how to interpret it.

What aren't you sure about the analysis tab? It's all pretty simple and shows you exactly what it says it does. You can use it to see the types of shots you have, what kind of passes, player positioning, team positions, kind of tackles etc.

What team are you and in what league? 10-14 isn't great, how are those stats compared to rest of the league?

When you view the incidents back with your defenders, is the player been skinned? pushed too far up? lack of pace? or positioned wrong to start with?

As for stats I don't agree with Yonko, here is the importance I'd go for;

Positioning, Decisions, composure, concentration, anticipation, determination, marking, tackling, strength. You want as many of those as high as possible. I've also put them in order of importance. If a player cannot be in the correct position to begin with then he is always going to be that half of yard behind play, no matter how good his other attributes are. The mental attributes of a player far outweights the technicals imo.

[Kamil-S]

Hassle Opponents

Effect: Instructs the team to close down the opposition and reduce the space available.

Action: Vastly increases closing down settings, changes marking to tight-man, increases tempo.

Useful: When needing to regain possession quickly; when playing against a slow, technically inferior team; when needing to reduce space for the opposition.

What shape are you using? As it could be a flaw in the system you play. I use it a lot, especially if I want to unsettle the opponents and win the ball back as soon as possible.

I've tried it with 4-4-2, 4-2-3-1 and 4-1-2-2-1 (4-5-1) - without any success. As far as I've noticed it pulls my defenders out of position and leaves space for opponent to exploit on quick counters. I mainly use zonal marking for my teams so maybe lack of match preparation for man marking is the issue.

[bpw91]

What aren't you sure about the analysis tab? It's all pretty simple and shows you exactly what it says it does. You can use it to see the types of shots you have, what kind of passes, player positioning, team positions, kind of tackles etc.

What team are you and in what league? 10-14 isn't great, how are those stats compared to rest of the league?

When you view the incidents back with your defenders, is the player been skinned? pushed too far up? lack of pace? or positioned wrong to start with?

As for stats I don't agree with Yonko, here is the importance I'd go for;

Positioning, Decisions, composure, concentration, anticipation, determination, marking, tackling, strength. You want as many of those as high as possible. I've also put them in order of importance. If a player cannot be in the correct position to begin with then he is always going to be that half of yard behind play, no matter how good his other attributes are. The mental attributes of a player far outweights the technicals imo.

Thanks for the continued advice, i will have a go with the analysis tab.

My team is Leicester in the championship, so i will compare against the teams and come back to you

[bpw91]

I am struggling to find much better defenders in the division