Total Football: Tic-Tac Magick

[davidbowie]

David Bowie, why is it that you on several of the different training roles (AMC Passing, Winger, Slow Strike) don't have any Aerobic training? I have changed it because you need to have some aerobic training.

This tactic is about pass and move possession play and closing down.

It doesn't have any Aerobic training because the players don't need any aerobic training.

Aerobic Accel Agility Balance Jumping Pace

Strength and Aerobic training requires two and a half times more workload than the rest of the training categories.

As an example. The fast striker tactic.

It has High Strength and Attacking, Intensive Tactics, Ball Control and Shooting.

If I went to High Strength and High Aerobic, I can only have Tactics at Medium, Attacking at High, Shooting at High, and no Ball Control at all. Or I'd have to reduce the key Strength training.

Physical training, because of this increased demand on the workload, is at a premium.

The Aerobic training is there, but only for the players that truly require it. In this tactic, this is only the GK, WB and CB.

Everyone else needs Strength training as a rule (especially in midfield) because the way the tactic is setup requires a lot of closing down, which puts a big demand on the ability of the players to increase the attributes in the strength attributes:

Strength Nat Fit Stami Strength Work Rate

If you look a couple of pages back, I go into more detail about what the training is.

How are is the development going Davidbowie? I would love to see some screens. Perhaps you can holiday for two seasons?

It's going good. Basically it's redistributing the players attributes based on the training.

Striker Training

Defensive Mid

[Gee_Simpson]

Anyone heard from Realmadrid_2007 lately? He hasn't posted in here for a while.

[Gee_Simpson]

This tactic is about pass and move possession play and closing down.

It doesn't have any Aerobic training because the players don't need any aerobic training.

Aerobic Accel Agility Balance Jumping Pace

Strength and Aerobic training requires two and a half times more workload than the rest of the training categories.

As an example. The fast striker tactic.

It has High Strength and Attacking, Intensive Tactics, Ball Control and Shooting.

If I went to High Strength and High Aerobic, I can only have Tactics at Medium, Attacking at High, Shooting at High, and no Ball Control at all. Or I'd have to reduce the key Strength training.

Physical training, because of this increased demand on the workload, is at a premium.

The Aerobic training is there, but only for the players that truly require it. In this tactic, this is only the GK, WB and CB.

Everyone else needs Strength training as a rule (especially in midfield) because the way the tactic is setup requires a lot of closing down, which puts a big demand on the ability of the players to increase the attributes in the strength attributes:

Strength Nat Fit Stami Strength Work Rate

If you look a couple of pages back, I go into more detail about what the training is.

How are you players responding to these schedules? I know you posted a screenshot of development arrows a couple of days ago but I was wondering if your players have improved in the target attributes over a season?

[davidbowie]

I just edited it to show a couple of players and what their typical changes are.

[Gee_Simpson]

@ davidbowie - Thanks for that. I know you mentioned that you have aerobic training set to 'none' for most positions but surely you wouldn't want to totally neglect these attributes altogether and at least maintain them?

[AndyLFC1]

I am struggeling terribly when playing away against big teams. Anyone got some tips?

[will8578]

Anyone heard from Realmadrid_2007 lately? He hasn't posted in here for a while.

from what i remember he's so busy during the week, he can only do weekend at the moment

[davidbowie]

@ davidbowie - Thanks for that. I know you mentioned that you have aerobic training set to 'none' for most positions but surely you wouldn't want to totally neglect these attributes altogether and at least maintain them?

Yeah, if it didn't impact on the rest of the schedule. For every 2 ticks of one of the physical schedules, you sacrifice 5 ticks on the technical schedules.

If you're going to train players in things they don't need, you might as well use a general schedule like this:

General Training + Youth + Pre-Season

[JahRastafari]

great info david. This is what I needed to begin with these schedules. I have one question:

During the season I use the specific position based training. And during the last two weeks I use the pre-season schedules as well as in the start of the season. Are the attributes of pace, jumping, acc etc increasing (again) during these periodes? Like it balance each other out?

[arafat]

Hi everybody

This tactic is giving great results in Benfica

1st year -> 1st in the league (10 pts adv), lost the plc and the pc because i put the subs palying, got to the ECC 1st elim, but lost to inter

My top team of 1st year is:

-------------saviola------------

gaitan ------------------ willian

badelj -- javi garcia -- aimar

coentrao - phil jones - luisao - maxi pereira

julio cesar

i made a revolution in the squad so i got no money to attack the second season, but i think this squad is good enough

[Gee_Simpson]

from what i remember he's so busy during the week, he can only do weekend at the moment

Yeah, I remember that but he hasn't been on in the weekends in here the past two weeks

[Gee_Simpson]

Yeah, if it didn't impact on the rest of the schedule. For every 2 ticks of one of the physical schedules, you sacrifice 5 ticks on the technical schedules.

If you're going to train players in things they don't need, you might as well use a general schedule like this:

General Training + Youth + Pre-Season

Nah I don't want to use a general schedule. I just thought because you need a pacey striker in this tactic, you wouldn't want him to decrease in pace and acc by setting aerobic to 'none'

[Realmadrid_2007]

Yeah, I remember that but he hasn't been on in the weekends in here the past two weeks

Hush yourself Gee...I'm a busy man

I've genuinely had no free time -- I've played three games in two weeks and they were on the train But I've been plotting some changes so I'm desperate to test them out fully. I'll post a screenie below of my new mentality changes I'm thinking of adopting -- It's my attempt to get Messi into more goalscoring positions.

**To be edited**

[Realmadrid_2007]

New mentalities below:

http://img16.imageshack.us/i/newpositions.png/

I'm also going to try narrowing the width to a value of 4 (3 clicks) to try and focus all the play through the middle. I'm not sure how all these changes will affect the tactic so I need to test it, but I'm just trying to keep you guys up to date.

(Xavi MCL and Iniesta MCR -- Although Henrique has been playing well for me in Iniesta's role)

Those green squares on the right side are where each position would normally set-up if they had a mentality of 15. So the green squares represent the DC, DMC, MC, AMC & ST -- hopefully this makes sense in my rushed attempt to reply.

The xxx shows the space which is why it's important to play with a high defensive line.

[Del Piero10]

cragswfc Would you show your skin mate ?

[cragswfc]

cragswfc Would you show your skin mate ?

mate which 1?

[Del Piero10]

http://http://s2.postimage.org/itb2i77l7/Yaya_Sanogo_Profile_Attributes_2.png

this one. Page 5 when you show the table and profile on Sanogo.

[Barkermush]

http://http://s2.postimage.org/itb2i77l7/Yaya_Sanogo_Profile_Attributes_2.png

this one. Page 5 when you show the table and profile on Sanogo.

If you mean this one he posted:

jimmyrh94

this is a full season

My main man

post#405

all with this http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/259190-Total-Football-Tic-Tac-Magick?p=6660847&viewfull=1#post6660847

I think he's using the "Seven" Skin.

[cragswfc]

If you mean this one he posted:

I think he's using the "Seven" Skin.

yes thats right.

[Gee_Simpson]

Hush yourself Gee...I'm a busy man

I've genuinely had no free time -- I've played three games in two weeks and they were on the train But I've been plotting some changes so I'm desperate to test them out fully. I'll post a screenie below of my new mentality changes I'm thinking of adopting -- It's my attempt to get Messi into more goalscoring positions.

**To be edited**

Lol no problem mate. Good to have you back though

Thanks for the update. I'm nearly finished my 1st season with this tactic so I look forward to implementing these changes when you upload them in time for the 2nd season.

[Del Piero10]

Cheers mates !

[davidbowie]

great info david. This is what I needed to begin with these schedules. I have one question:

During the season I use the specific position based training. And during the last two weeks I use the pre-season schedules as well as in the start of the season. Are the attributes of pace, jumping, acc etc increasing (again) during these periodes? Like it balance each other out?

Generally you won't see an increase in the actual attribute (since they are out of 20, but the game tracks them out of 100 iirc), but they will either rise but not enough to gain an attribute point, or they will level out and help the stat from dropping during the season.

Nah I don't want to use a general schedule. I just thought because you need a pacey striker in this tactic, you wouldn't want him to decrease in pace and acc by setting aerobic to 'none'

Then you should be buying strikers who already have enough pace.

In this tactic, I find players with 15 or better for pace and acceleration is more than fast enough, but they still need the mental attributes like off the ball, decisions and obviously the finishing/composure/technique as well.

This tactic makes it's chances through intricate passing, player movement and through balls to strikers making trap-breaking runs, not just banging long balls over the top for a fast striker. That said, I will go back over my training and decide on possibly moving down the strength and putting in some aerobic for the strikers.

I'm gonna go see if I've got an older save I'll compare some of my players.

Edit - Okay, I've got a couple. It's kinda annoying to do these, since I have to keep saving and loading to compare them, but I've done two:

Strano - Striker

This shows pretty much what you can expect. Although there are some things missing, I checked back a couple years to a few months after he joined, us used to have 14 for tackling which was odd. If I'd kept him on an aerobic heavy routine, I guarantee you wouldn't see even half the attribute increases in the mental areas. I'll also point out he's already scored 18 goals this season in 17 league appearances. The last two seasons he's got 14 and 15 over 30, then 6 from 19 in his first half season.

Wilson - DM

This one shows a lot of attribute loss, and a lot of attribute gain. But it's almost exclusive to areas that he doesn't need for losses, and where he does need it for gains. He's only scored 4 goals for the club in 120 games, so he could lose all his finishing, dribbling and I wouldn't care.

[zinedremomeri]

New mentalities below:

http://img16.imageshack.us/i/newpositions.png/

I'm also going to try narrowing the width to a value of 4 (3 clicks) to try and focus all the play through the middle. I'm not sure how all these changes will affect the tactic so I need to test it, but I'm just trying to keep you guys up to date.

(Xavi MCL and Iniesta MCR -- Although Henrique has been playing well for me in Iniesta's role)

Those green squares on the right side are where each position would normally set-up if they had a mentality of 15. So the green squares represent the DC, DMC, MC, AMC & ST -- hopefully this makes sense in my rushed attempt to reply.

The xxx shows the space which is why it's important to play with a high defensive line.

good o have u back Real Madrid 2007.although lookslike u r not really back,yet i guess..lol

i like the idea about narroeing it further.i'll try it with my man. city.

i think it may give the wingers more chance to score.

and i think the def. might give away less positions.

let's c what happens...

[Gee_Simpson]

@ davidbowie - Thanks for that. Yeah I understand how the tactic plays but because I'm in the SPL, it's hard to buy strikers with 15 pace & acc and good mental stats on top of that, well in my 1st season anyway. Even just the last notch of 'light' aerobic would maybe be ok just to maintain pace and acc?

[davidbowie]

It probably would. Just keep an eye on the training graph each player has, and see if it's 'snake' is going down or staying level.

edit - Okay, I've reflected on it a bit.

Basically, if you can't get a striker that is already fast enough for the tactic, then you've got a choice.

You can drop all the strength training and switch it to Aerobic because it's not as needed for a striker, but it will impact on the rest of the skills, because the Aerobic attributes are more weighted in the CA calculations than the Strength ones, and such you won't get as much improvement in their technical skills.

If you make that choice, you should probably create a second training schedule, because anyone who is already fast enough will also suffer.

In short:

A player who is already fast enough (say 15+ for pace/accel) use the existing training.

A player who isn't fast enough (say 11 or 12) or already has high Strength attributes = use a Aerobic skill training.

[zinedremomeri]

@davidbowie..pretty good info about how the training work.thanx for sharing.do u happen to have a regular training schedule that works evenly for the attributes that u fancy.

thanx in adv.

[zinedremomeri]

i'm sorry for that last post,since it's a little off topic.it's supposed to be about the tactic here :o

[JahRastafari]

zinedremomeri take a look at ravens training + sets. These are more 'general'. I've been reading through the Training threads of Mantralux and must say great info! I am going for Raven's sets and will adjust during the season the workload and trainingfocus per player. I now understand that Match practice, tutoring, moral, condition (match fitness) are all very important for the development of your players. It's not FM 2010 anymore that you can download a training and you'll the green arrows pop up in a month.

[zinedremomeri]

zinedremomeri take a look at ravens training + sets. These are more 'general'. I've been reading through the Training threads of Mantralux and must say great info! I am going for Raven's sets and will adjust during the season the workload and trainingfocus per player. I now understand that Match practice, tutoring, moral, condition (match fitness) are all very important for the development of your players. It's not FM 2010 anymore that you can download a training and you'll the green arrows pop up in a month.

thanx for that info.i agree with u 100%..

[UPNATEM]

destroying teams with a very slightly tweaked version of the Home tactic.. see for yourself! http://img823.imageshack.us/i/portoresults.png/ Amazing @RealMadrid appreciate your work!

[stribes]

@ upnatem

what tweak have you made?

and which version of the tactic do you use?

[Gee_Simpson]

It probably would. Just keep an eye on the training graph each player has, and see if it's 'snake' is going down or staying level.

edit - Okay, I've reflected on it a bit.

Basically, if you can't get a striker that is already fast enough for the tactic, then you've got a choice.

You can drop all the strength training and switch it to Aerobic because it's not as needed for a striker, but it will impact on the rest of the skills, because the Aerobic attributes are more weighted in the CA calculations than the Strength ones, and such you won't get as much improvement in their technical skills.

If you make that choice, you should probably create a second training schedule, because anyone who is already fast enough will also suffer.

In short:

A player who is already fast enough (say 15+ for pace/accel) use the existing training.

A player who isn't fast enough (say 11 or 12) or already has high Strength attributes = use a Aerobic skill training.

Alright, thanks for that.

[yaşar]

destroying teams with a very slightly tweaked version of the Home tactic.. see for yourself! http://img823.imageshack.us/i/portoresults.png/ Amazing @RealMadrid appreciate your work!

what tweak have you made?

and which version of the tactic do you use?

[UPNATEM]

Stribes + Yasar.. only very minor tweaks - I put my full backs tackling on normal, raised the tempo one notch although it is only my base tempo and usually against better teams or in the CL I raise it before the game (I switch tempo throughout the game depending on the situation), and have edited the Set Pieces. I use the home tactic only by the way..

My match prep is average workload and focus on 'none' although if struggling on a particular area I focus on that weakness on a high workload for around two weeks and then switch back to average and 'none'

Jusr beat Arsenal 6-0 at the Emirates! Hulk is a beast in the AMR spot

[JahRastafari]

upnatum what are you're changes on the set pieces? Can you show some screenshots? Thank you

[Barkermush]

My first full season in charge of Liverpool [Took over last October & took them from 14th to a 6th place finish, and got them into Europe for the first time in 3 seasons] and so far this season i'm still unbeaten in all competitions.

Been playing my young prospects/fringe players in the Carling Cup & some Europa League games and they are doing well. I like this message;

" A young Liverpool side showed you can with kids "

[stribes]

bark,which version?tweak?

[Gee_Simpson]

bark,which version?tweak?

His tweaked version mate yeah.

[Andyprime]

"Change List:

PLAYMAKER IS NOW ON THE RIGHT (MCR)"

Dose that apply for the home tactic?

sorry if its a stupid question but im tired

Also where do you find the overall total team passes (and completed team passes) made in a match?

[davidbowie]

Tik Tok Possession Based Tactical Training Schedules V2.0

I created a set of training schedules to use with this tactic:

Tik Tok Training Schedule First Team + Youth V2.0

Version 2: Tweaked physical training, especially for the Striker and AMC Schedule.

I felt the players were losing too much physical ability too quickly, this should slow the losses, or possibly keep them at the same level, if they weren't training on physical's before they join your club.

It contains a set of training schedules intended to work with the tactics and abilities required for the players in this tactic. It has been developed using the Training Master Class thread. It would be a good idea to read through that thread to get up to speed on the theory used behind this schedule.

Overall Philosophy:

The Tik-Tok tactic revolves around 3 major aspects.

Playing high up the park and with heavy closing down.

Improved decision making and tactical choices.

Possession play with focused quality passing to create space and chances.

In this frame of mine, I built up my training schedule to work the players into this frame of mine. Having investigated the training masterclass, it is clear the training schedule for this tactic must revolve around the Attacking, Strength and Tactics training as a general rule.

By using the appropriate training schedules, it is possibly to markedly improve the quality of a player as they fit into this tactic.

It is sub-titled "POS" for "POSSESSION".

Note: This is a heavily specialised training schedule. If you do use it, be prepared for your players to maintain or lose their attributes in certain areas. As a general warning, there is little Aerobic work, and Strength training for forwards is also lowered with the v2.0 tweaks, are likely to lose those attributes in 'exchange' for increases in the others technical attributes.

It contains the following schedules:

First Team:

PRE SEASON - Use this at the start of the season, until a player is match fit, or until there is only 2 weeks left in the season. It gets their important physical and tactical attributes back as fast as possible and helps get them fit.

POSSESSION Main - Use this on new players, to get them up to speed on the attributes this tactic uses quickly.

I don't think I need to explain too much what the positional training schedules do, except to remind people that the key training departments in this tactic are Attacking, Strength and Tactics. There is enough training at the full-time level to still do what each position requires more generally, whilst still maintaining the focus on the specific trio of main departments:

Striker - Strikers, wing forwards or converting wingers to wing-forwards.

AMC Passing - Playmakers, attacking midfielders. There was a schedule for dribbling AMC's it didn't vary enough to make it matter.

Slow Striker - Slower central strikers.

DM - Defensive midfielders.

Wingers - Wingers aren't optimum in this tactic, but in some cases you might have players who aren't quite good enough at attacking for the Fast Striker schedule, but are still useful players.

MC - Use this for your left midfielders, and players who aren't good enough at either attacking or defending to be used in those specific AMC or DM roles. This tactic works towards making that player a very useful box to box midfielder.

WB - Use for the DR and DL. This schedule does traing Aerobic, as it's good to help keep their pace up.

CB - So what if he's in the centre of the defence? He still needs to be good on the ball. This has the highest rate of Aerobic training because it's one of the few roles that don't needs much stamina in this tactic, and it's nice to improve their pace, as well as the fact Jumping is part of Aerobic.

GK - Every big GK attribute is worked to as highest level. There is also some Attacking training to help with passing. However you can choose to remove the attacking training, and push Aerobic all the way to Intensive.

Old Guys - This tactic tries to maintain their existing stats together for as long as possible. Can be used for any position but GK.

Youth:

Pre-season, possession and GK are all HEAVY training. Keep that in mind. If you have issues tone it down.

PRE-SEASON: Just like it's first-team version. Use until there are 2 weeks left till the season starts. Take Aerobic down a notch or two to put it to Medium workload.

POSSESSION YTH: Honestly you probably won't need this.

GK: Turn down Aerobic a notch or two to make it medium.

DEF: Use for CB's, WB's and DM's.

ST: Use for ST's and Wing Forwards.

MC: Use for MC's and AMC's.

So there it is. I hope it helps people, but do keep in mind that this is a training schedule built for this tactic. Don't use it if you suddenly switch to a park the bus then hit with lightning fast counter-attacking tactic.

[drhay53]

Personally I think you are drastically underestimating the importance of physical attributes, even for this tactic.

If you use these training schedules to build up younger first team players, particularly wingers/strikers, I can promise you that the lack of overall speed will significantly hinder you. Frankly I do not recommend using those training schedules at all. It's just plain a terrible idea to get rid of all of your teams aerobic attributes, or even to completely neglect building them up in your younger professional contract players.

[davidbowie]

They are not neglected. They are simply not as important as the technical attributes. I have tweaked the schedules to still provide some physical training in the areas I did original remove almost all of it from (in most cases, it's lowering Strength training down a bit to allow some Aerobic).

If I had a tactic based around defending deep then hitting on the break, I would be pushing Aerobic and looking for players who can break fast. Instead, this tactic revolves around breaking down defences with ball and player movement but player movement is not necessarily done at break-neck speed.

[drhay53]

If the players are not fast enough to get behind the defense though you will be greatly reducing the number of goals that occur simply because a midfielder spots a great run and bombs the ball forward. It happens quite alot for me.

A 'maintaining' level of physical training is probably fine for first team players you buy. But for young players you should either make a whole other set of schedules or recommend that people not use ones with low levels of physical training.

[UPNATEM]

If the players are not fast enough to get behind the defense though you will be greatly reducing the number of goals that occur simply because a midfielder spots a great run and bombs the ball forward. It happens quite alot for me.

A 'maintaining' level of physical training is probably fine for first team players you buy. But for young players you should either make a whole other set of schedules or recommend that people not use ones with low levels of physical training.

I agree totally.. have used this tactic for 6 seasons and I have pace throughout the team, especially in defence and my 3 front players.. My training schedules contain quite high levels of aerobic training as I find pace helps movement both on and off the ball, especially when playing at a higher tempo or in need of a goal.

[davidbowie]

Do whatever you like, it's your games. I've spelled out exactly what this schedule is used for, if you're buying slow players then that's your problem, not the problem of the tactic or the training schedules.

That said, it wouldn't hurt too badly to have the Attacking training on the Striker schedule dropped down to Light, in exchange for putting Aerobic up to High.

[amer]

Yeah i've sorted it into it's own folder, there's a couple of things i want to sort out before i upload it for others to use.

The Skin is far from perfect (the top buttons are flat 2-D ish), it's just something i threw together for myself... the colours/ layout that i much prefer.

Any chance of skin ready yet?

[drhay53]

Do whatever you like, it's your games. I've spelled out exactly what this schedule is used for, if you're buying slow players then that's your problem, not the problem of the tactic or the training schedules.

That said, it wouldn't hurt too badly to have the Attacking training on the Striker schedule dropped down to Light, in exchange for putting Aerobic up to High.

It's not about buying slow players, it's about developing young players. You wouldn't want to use 'maintenance' physical training on young players because they would never reach their highest potential physical stats.

[drhay53]

I'm still going to try your schedules out though because I appreciate all the work you've put into this and it should help save me some time from using individual schedules for every player.

[davidbowie]

It's not about buying slow players, it's about developing young players. You wouldn't want to use 'maintenance' physical training on young players because they would never reach their highest potential physical stats.

I think we're confusing two issues.

I honestly don't spend too much time on youth players. All mine suck, any that don't get immediately put onto full time contracts as soon as possible.

Having looked up the issue, when I release a V3, I shall research the youth training and bump up their physicals.

[Andyprime]

"Change List:

PLAYMAKER IS NOW ON THE RIGHT (MCR)"

Dose that apply for the home tactic?

sorry if its a stupid question but im tired

Also where do you find the overall total team passes (and completed team passes) made in a match?

anyone?

101010